Dr. Shrikaanth K Murthy

meena · Post by **meena** » 23 Mar 2006, 06:27

DRS

for hamirkalyani rtp:

deleted

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 23 Mar 2006, 18:02

Thanks Meena

CML
I am nonplussed by your silence. The role of a quiet bystander neither fits nor befit you.

kiransurya · Post by **kiransurya** » 23 Mar 2006, 19:45

I second.
Would be good to hear DRS demonstrating away about raagas....

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 23 Mar 2006, 22:19

DRS

It is social obligations. My son the neurologist is in town and has great demands on my time

I just had time to read your script on Hamiru. This is a ragam that has fascinated me and many others. Your rendition is quite classical but is different from MLV. I notice your explanation

The nyAsa on Suddhamadhyama is an important difference when compared with sAranga where the nyAsa is on M2(DPM2~,).

My svarag~naanam is not adequate to detect her deviation. Also you have mentioned that the two madhyamams are never used sequentially though Neyveli does. Again you do not appear to be following the MD style either in spite of your sticking to his tradition. Let us leave out the HM styles as also Kedar since there is no consistency among the gharanas too on this. Under the circumstances it will be very nice if you can explain with a demo the 'chalan' of this beautiful raga as also the unique way that you handle it. The 'vENu purIsham' is delightful but is too short to bring out what you intend to say (I can't admit you have said all that you wanted in that piece

). Do oblige the request of the Rasikas with a rendition and a step by step explanation. Especially this raga is in violation of CM grammar (having the use of both the madhyamas). I am sure even if controversial other silent scholars will join in a debate. We can however separately discuss the use of both madhyamams in CM in the Technical section without interupting the flow of music here! Thanks.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 23 Mar 2006, 22:47

DRS----
Again you do not appear to be following the MD style either in spite of your sticking to his tradition.

I dont myself see any major difference/deviation in my treatment of the rAga vis a vis MD`s

The 'vENu purIsham' is delightful but is too short to bring out what you intend to say (I can't admit you have said all that you wanted in that piece ).

You are not paying enought attention CML. I suppose it is your social commitments that is responsible for this

The kRti is in viLamba Adi and has a full complement of P-AP-C and a solkaTTu as well!. It cannot get any longer.

Especially this raga is in violation of CM grammar (having the use of both the madhyamas).

This is an erroneous observation. The use of the 2 madhyamas in one rAga is in itself not a violation. We have so many like sAranga, hamIru, yamunAkalyANi, behAg, a version of gauLipantu in CM which all employ 2 madhyamas. It is only when the 2 madhyamas are placed adjacent to each other that there is a case of violation of the fundamental rules.
As for neyveli or anyone singing the 2 together, I will leave it to them to say why they do.

As for lecdemoising what I say, may I remind our friends that I am not a full-time musician. Already I am spending so much time on the forum at the cost of my sleep etc. I make no promises here.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 23 Mar 2006, 23:38

DRS

I concede I have not given adequate time. But then my expectations were high particularly in respect of this raga. You have legitimately used solkaTTU appropriately here. But I expected a svarakalpana and felt cheated. Again the raga certainly is appropriate for 2 kaLai traditionally but I atleast expected a madhymakaal foray!

Also note that MD's parimaLaranganaatham starts as:
P,M,P,PMM*,M*G...with both madhyamam occurring neatly together which is what I meant by your not admitting such sancaarams (they don't fit in venkatamahi scheme either).

I still have problem with the grammatical structure of AP. Could you provide a complete running translation of the same for my edification! (In particular I wonder whether it must be vismRtaM)

I understand your reluctance to elaborate due to time commitments but will not entertain any lack of musical competance

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 23 Mar 2006, 23:52

DRS----
You have legitimately used solkaTTU appropriately here. But I expected a svarakalpana and felt cheated. Again the raga certainly is appropriate for 2 kaLai traditionally but I atleast expected a madhymakaal foray!

the solkaTTu is a compensation for the madhyamakAla passage. I used it in lieu of the MK passage. Using both in this rAga could lead to a feeling of repetitiveness and hence the avoidance of both.

Also note that MD's parimaLaranganaatham starts as:
P,M,P,PMM*,M*G...with both madhyamam occurring neatly together which is what I meant by your not admitting such sancaarams (they don't fit in venkatamahi scheme either).

That is not how it is notated in the SSP. Even so, you have overlooked what I said about the drutakALa gamaka/uruTu in places where it sounds as if M1M2 are placed together. There is always a gamaka of either P or G between the 2 madhyamas.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 23 Mar 2006, 23:59

----
I still have problem with the grammatical structure of AP. Could you provide a complete running translation of the same for my edification! (In particular I wonder whether it must be vismRtaM---

It is very difficult to capture the meaning in English. So I will again give it in tamizh for the P and AP alone.

vENupurIsanai, pAsattai aRuttavanai,
mella asaiyum karunkuzhalai uDaiyavanaip bhajikkirEn |

tanadu vENugAnattail meymarandu ninRa pasukkUTTattAl sUZhappaTTavanai,
anbin UTRAnavanai, vIranai nAn--bhajikkirEn |
vismRta aone conveys the intensity of the mayakkam. vismita would have worked but was insufficient to convey what I felt as I saw the vENugOpAla on my desktop.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 24 Mar 2006, 00:05

Agreed! Somehow I was beguiled by the solkaTTu away from the classicism! My fault!

The MAMA explanation helps but I am not sure whether it is respected by the performing artistes. Those are definitely OK for KJY and IR groups

Let us move on! (Just clarify the AP before leaving!)

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 24 Mar 2006, 00:17

vENuravE vismRta paSu nivaham |

vENuravE = vENugAnattail
vismRtapaSunivaham = meymarandu ninRa pasukkUTTattAl
sUZhappaTTavanai = ???? (that is my problem ?pariv^RitaM)

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 24 Mar 2006, 00:25

Ohho

nivaham = samUham. The parivRtam is implied although not specifically mentioned. You will see this in plenty of other kRtis(MD`s included) and I am sure in non musical sanskrit literature as well.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 24 Mar 2006, 01:06

Thanks for the clarification. Strictly as per dictionary and usage nivaham has the meaning collection/heap/multitude, but of course the way they are heaped can be implied (pariv^Rita nivaham) which is fine. No more questions

Let us move on with our obeisance to the venupurIsham (of course we have those nice pictures you posted earlier, but only now I got enlightened koNanu = koLalu

)

When was this composed?

Guys this is a great piece to be rendered on your violins/flute! Pl post...

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 24 Mar 2006, 01:10

CMl
Just to ease any discomfort from doubts that may still lurk I am giving illustrations of similar usages from MD kRtis:-

pAkaSAsanAdi dEvabRndam in cintayE mahAlingamUrtim, pharas

mAdhavAdyamarabRndam from mahAgaNapatim vandE, tODi

navatuLasIvanamAlam nAradAdi munijAlam in cEtaH SRI bAlakRShNam, dvijAvanti

murAri prabhRti dEva samUham in sadASivam upAsamahE, SankarAbharaNa

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 24 Mar 2006, 01:17

Guys this is a great piece to be rendered on your violins/flute! Pl post...

Yes! will get to it.
I completed learning Kantaswara, dEs. Into rAgachudamani now-tough one but enjoying it.

Will post others when my confidence gets :arrowu:

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 24 Mar 2006, 01:33

Suji
Good work. Keep it up. You have perseverance and patience which is what is required for success. Await your renditions.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 24 Mar 2006, 03:35

DRS----
In the same vein, could I implore you to "lec demo"ize your explanations - like the one above - where a neophyte like myself who finds it hard to understand the nuances as written on paper - might learn a whole lot more when hearing alongside - particularly some of prayogas you explain that do not exist in the raga.

Anyone to second this request?

Perhaps if you can do just one rAgam. Please.

Here we go

Lecdem on hamIrkalyANi

http://rapidshare.de/files/16252327/Lec ... y.wma.html

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 24 Mar 2006, 06:34

WoW!

You did it! Thanks first! I am just listening to it and it is opening up a new chapter in understanding. For example I always wondered why there are no mantra sthayi sancaaras (you have answered it!). Again nice explanation of the deviation from kalyani itself. Time permitting you should do more such Lecdems which will be highly educational for us. Now I have to sit and enjoy this in slow bits (in spite of my social commitments

). Will ask questions later

Bye!

new_cmfan · Post by **new_cmfan** » 24 Mar 2006, 08:02

I feel like i hit the jackpot with that question!

Thanks so much DRS. For your time and effort. Now everytime i listen to hamirkalyani - first - i am positive i will be able to identify it immediately, second - i will know to look for those identifiable phrases. And most of all - i will be thanking you...

I am very excited at the prospect of more of these "DRS Raga lessons" series. Is one raga a week too much to ask? I can gleefully settle for less (lest i be called greedy)

kartik · Post by **kartik** » 24 Mar 2006, 09:24

DRS,
Is a P(M1)R S also not a sanchara in HK?Do we also admit sangaths such as GM1DP Gm1 rs and Gm1pgm1rs?These are sancharas common to kamod,(which is so beautifully positioned between kedar and hamir) and hamir too.The reason I ask you this is that I have heard these phrases in kalpana swaras of HK in carnatic.

Here is a link of Hameer Kalyani rendered by Neyveli Santhanagopalan with the two madhyamas positioned next to each other(seems to be done consciously).It sounds great.

http://rapidshare.de/files/16272004/Ham ... ni.ra.html

Please correct me if my understanding is wrong.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 24 Mar 2006, 09:34

Phrases such as "GM1PGM1RS" & "GM1DPGM1RS" with M1 in ArOhaNa CANNOT be used in HK. They will sound like kannaDa. So is the case with "PM1RS".

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 24 Mar 2006, 09:35

Here we go

Lecdem on hamIrkalyANi

DRS, Wow, thanks very much. The best compliment and appreciation I can provide is to say that your thoughtful presentation and wonderful demonstration brought the few pages of the SSP itself to spring into life. And side by side demonstration to show the subtle differences between Kalyani and HK, HK and Saranga, and HK and Hamir are just spot on as well as the discussion on the two madhyamas.

This is a great podcast, if I may give it that attribution. I know you do this in your spare time and I am amazed that you could suffle your priorities this much to devote time to create, notate, record and share musical treasures with us. Thanks very much and please provide more at your pace. We are ever so greatful.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 24 Mar 2006, 09:55

Karthik
Thinking again on "PM1RS", depends on the preceding sancAras and the gamakas. If "PM," is rendered with the uruTu as I mentioned where there is an undercurrent of gAndhara, and provided the RShabha is elongated with a jAru from M1, it should be ok. In this case it will be mandatory to elongate both M and R.

PM2R,S can be used occasionally. This phrase is more evocative of yamunAkalyANi.

You mentioned M2 and M1 being sung next to each other in Neyveli`s rendering you posted. I couldnt find it.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 24 Mar 2006, 10:07

DRS

Why is M1M2 banned in CM whereas R3G3 or D3N3 are not? They span similar 'vivaditva'!

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 24 Mar 2006, 10:11

Neyveli does quickly use M2,M1 towards the end but as ysaid it could be M(P)M (hard to distinguish! Also at the beninnign he does demonstrate the two madhymas coming together. (That was my original motivation for raising this issue).

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 24 Mar 2006, 10:40

DRS..
that lec dem was fabulous.I know it is going to more hard on you , but I sincerely hope that You will find time to handle AS MANY RAGAS AS POSSIBLE.
We lay rasikas have been so mercilessly left to fend for ourselves for decades , in our efforts to understand something we love so much.
Thanks for helping us out

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 24 Mar 2006, 11:39

A kedar Film song ,not frequently heard.
http://rapidshare.de/files/16275543/03- ... e_Taar.mp3

and a clip from parveens rendering in Madurai ,many years ago

http://rapidshare.de/files/16276292/KED ... H-PARV.mp3

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 24 Mar 2006, 18:18

Neyveli does quickly use M2,M1 towards the end but as ysaid it could be M(P)M (hard to distinguish! Also at the beninnign he does demonstrate the two madhymas coming together. (That was my original motivation for raising this issue).

If you are talking of the point at around 2 1/2 mins from start, he does not sing M and M2 together. There is a very clear gAndhAra anuswAra between them. This is not hard to distiguish.
Anyway, we will leave Neyveli at this point as the subject of dicussion is HamIru.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 24 Mar 2006, 21:55

DRS
Why is M1M2 banned in CM whereas R3G3 or D3N3 are not? They span similar 'vivaditva'!

Actually even the other vivAdi pairs are not sung simply together or without graces/gamakas. You probably had the sampUrNa mELas in mind.

But even so, madhyama is a cardinal note in the swara saptaka. When we look at venkaTamakhi`s scheme in the caturdaNDI prakASike, he clearly eexplains that in a mELa 2 variants of the same swara cannot occur together. Not just in mELas but in any rAga we do not have 2 variants of the same note occuring adjacent to each other.

This is partly overcome by renaming some of the notes as the adjacent higher /lower note. Thus we have the vivAdi swaras G1(R2), R3(G2), D3(N2) AND N1(D2). But no such facility is either available or possible for the madhyama note. M2 cannot be renamed as a variant of the pancama note as P does not allow variants. P is a prakRti swara.

M1 cannot be considered as a variant of gAndhAra as that would lead to a possibilty of combining R1 and M1 where the gap is too wide and will cause instability to the rAga. Also M1 is a natural samvAdi to ShaDja and cannot be considered a variant of another swara.

As such M1 and M2 are too close for comfort.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 24 Mar 2006, 22:15

To continue with the above discussion:-

Hence we have a situation where we will be forced to put M1 beside M2 and that is simply not done in our music. Also, if we had to alloacte the
rAga to a mELa, we would have difficulties again.

By definition, a mELa must have S and P and one variety of madhyama in it. madhyama, as its very name says, is the note that divides ths swara septet into 2 equal halves. Change of one madhyama leads to a remarkable change in the quality of the rAga. To put it in venkaTamakhi`s own words, just as a samll amount of curd is enough to
transform a full pot of milk to all curd, so is the pratimadhyama(varALI madhyama) sufficient to transform a rAGa.

Putting 2 madhyamas leads to a virOdhAbhAsa- a conflict in the nature of
the rAga. Now if we create a mELa with 2 madhyamas juxtaposed, then we are either forced to create a mELa with 8 swaras or give up on pancama. Both are ludicrous ideas as they go against the very
fundamental basis, nature and structure of music. Any system of music in the world allows only 7 notes in an octave.

Giving up pancama will lead to incongruity and instability in the rAga as
a valuable samvADi to the AdhAra ShaDja is lost. We need 2 prakRti notes to have stability in a rAga. With 2 madhyamas and without the pancama, one will be constantly grappling with and struggling to ge the swarasthAnas right and the Suddha madhyama will be unable to exercise its full strength as the samvAdi to ShaDja.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 24 Mar 2006, 22:18

Conclusion

The only way to use 2 madhyamas in a rAga is by placing another swara between them.

And this is exactly what we do in all rAgas that employ both the madhyamas.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 24 Mar 2006, 23:10

DRS

Thanks for that insightful essay on the use of dvimadhyamas juxtaposed. As a psychiatrist you have read the mind of venkatamahi when he formulated his scheme though some of the issues have been spelt out by him only in a seminal form. It logically follows that we need to have a panchama or gandhara anusvara if both the madhyamas are used in the sancaara! His arguments for the spread of the svaras as well as the choice of svaras (including minimal or non) use of vivaditva are aesthetically satisfying. But then we need to have an open mind as much as the Noneuclidean geometry released classical science from the shakles of the age-old Euclidean philosophy. Apparently venkatamahi was not paying attention to the 22shruti concept that was alive even during his times. Even those ideas are being questioned currently by avant-garde CM thinkers and I wouldn't mind picking your scholarly brain (purely on technical issues) elsewhere without interrupting our flow of music here!

Would love to hear a varaaLi from you (and I wouldn't even mind if it provokes dissension between us

) provided you append a Lecdem to go with it!

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 25 Mar 2006, 01:48

Before winding up with hamvIru, some more tracks(Thanks to Badri)

ST`s gAngEyavasana by Seeta Rajan

http://rapidshare.de/files/16010615/See ... i.mp4.html

tillAna by B.VRaman and B.V.Lakshman

http://rapidshare.de/files/16009088/BVR ... i.mp4.html

ARI singing venkaTaSailavihAra

http://rapidshare.de/files/16009507/ARI ... alyani.mp4

Lalgudi Jayaraman playing tiruppugazh.

http://rapidshare.de/files/16008819/LGJ ... i.mp4.html

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 25 Mar 2006, 02:03

Also listen to a superb HK thiruppugazh by Guruji Ragahavan at
http://kaumaram.net/gr_audio/0065.zip

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 25 Mar 2006, 02:35

I composed the hamIru kRti on 18.03.2006. I am using vENugOpAla swAmi`s picture as my desktop which is where I got the inspiration from. As I composed, I pictured a young cowherd lad playing in flute standing on the banks of the kAvEri, with his somewhat tousled dark hair waving gently in the cool gentle breeze from the river, the cows gathering around him, irresistibly drawn to him and his music and his loving nature.

His attraction is so great that it draws even the unlikely ones to him in a beautiful manner. This is reflected in the enchanting jAru from the tAra ShaDja to the pratimadhyama in the last line (SrIkANtam).

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 25 Mar 2006, 05:20

That is real inspiration. Thank you for sharing that vision in a fitting music with us. May I just add

yaM kAvEri taTE vyUhO gavAm pariv^RitE
madhura kOkilAravam anisham AnIyatE|
mandapavane viluLita keshapatAkam AhvayatE
tam shrikAntEna samt^Ripta kriShNam pAtu naH||

(who, on the banks of kAvEri surrounded by the cows is incessantly invited by the sweet cooing kokila; the gentle wind-blown dishevelled hair challenges waving a flag of invitation, may that Krishna (venupurIsha) protect us satified with the prayer music of shrikAnta)

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 25 Mar 2006, 05:31

Thank you for the beauiful vRtta CML.

DRS-----
Would love to hear a varaaLi from you (and I wouldn't even mind if it provokes dissension between us ) provided you append a Lecdem to go with it!

Aye to the first bit, nay to second(lecdem) bit.

But right now I plan to post something else for a reason. Let me wait a while before posting.

venkatpv · Post by **venkatpv** » 25 Mar 2006, 05:51

DRS,
now that CML mentions it, how about some kokilaravam??

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 25 Mar 2006, 06:08

venkat

I was indeed referring to DRS through vya^NgyArtha in kOkilAravaM (but then he is now at Thames taTE

). Thanks for reading my mind!

kiransurya · Post by **kiransurya** » 25 Mar 2006, 06:17

CML
That was a good poem..

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 25 Mar 2006, 06:34

CML
That was a good poem..

Hey hey! You are so prompt in commending CML`s poem. But you have said nothing about either the hamIru kRti or the lecdem when you are actually one of those who seconded the proposal by new_cmfan. Not fair! :frown: :frown: :frown:

And where are those renderings ofmy kRti you promised to post ages ago? :frown:

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 25 Mar 2006, 06:36

CML and venkatpv
the kOkilArava reference did not slip past me. Have made note of it!

despit being near Thames.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 25 Mar 2006, 14:29

DRS
permit me to sneak in a rtp by bv raman / bv lakshman

before you move on.
http://rapidshare.de/files/16361946/08_ ... YANI-1.mp3
http://rapidshare.de/files/16363088/08_ ... YANI-2.mp3

do we have time for a manamuleda by semmangudi !!!

kiransurya · Post by **kiransurya** » 25 Mar 2006, 14:49

Hi DRS

Iam caught doing an offense here

No offence please

. My Mac is not allowing me to download stuff for some reason. So couldnt download anything off the forum.

Wont be long before I come back with renditions of your krithis....

BTW way a request DRS(Am I not cheeky

)
We are all forgetting a legendary combination here. Raaga Hindolam/Mohanam and Lord Krishna............

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 25 Mar 2006, 17:46

Kiran
You are forgiven

Coolkarni
Looks like you love that SSI rendering. Go ahead and post it.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 25 Mar 2006, 18:44

DRS
Strange that you can notice my tail wagging at the mention of Hamir kalyani , from such a distance.
cannot help it.
Now you know why i named my Son "Kedar "!!!

http://rapidshare.de/files/16377077/03- ... dana_A.MP3

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 25 Mar 2006, 18:52

Yes I do coolkarni- a lovely rAga name for the son of a lovely person.

Some more hamIru pieces

TK Govindarao in Pittsburg

http://rapidshare.de/files/16011106/TKG ... alyani.mp4

ARI singing tiruppAvai

http://rapidshare.de/files/16009307/ARI ... alyani.mp4

TNS singing his tillAna

http://rapidshare.de/files/16010427/TNS ... i.mp4.html

All courtesy Badri

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 25 Mar 2006, 20:28

Next- rakkaNe gaida kumArage- saurasEna, rUpaka tALa.

http://rapidshare.de/files/16351281/rak ... y.wma.html

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 25 Mar 2006, 20:57

Pictures of kukke subrahmaNya

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 25 Mar 2006, 22:12

mAtu for rakkaNe gaida kumArage
rAga- saurasEna; rUpaka tALa

rakkaNe gaida kumArage |
lakSha dIpagaLa OLi ||P||

tekke sarpa rUpadindu | divya saurasEne tandu |
kukkeyalli nitya nindu | kumAradhAreyali mindu ||AP||

uttama gangeyali janisi | kRttikeyaru beLasidavage |
mRttikeyittu kuShTAdi | kuttagaLanu kaLedavage |
jattaka tArakana konda | Sakti vEla taLedavage |
gattina navilEri SrI-kAntana mana seLedavage ||C||

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 25 Mar 2006, 23:35

A big thanks to all for making Hamiru a wonderful experience. It was a great feast for the ears as well intellect! Kudos to DRS for orchestrating with his superb lecdem too! I felt like being in one of those major Scientific conferences where we get a demo as well as get to discuss the innards of fundamentals too!

DRS

First need an explanation for those pictures of my family deity! For a moment I was surprised to see sahana on the song title and wondered whether sahanapriyan got to you again till I found out the 'real' saurasenasarasanagipriyaSrikAntasahanapriyan ! well done!