7-5-09
Bhagwan Sri Ramana Maharishi’s words meant that the great composers attained realization by a method other than music and their music has been dipped in the power of their realization. It emphasizes that mere music is not sufficient for realization. What he said without saying is that the essential factor required is the shedding of worldly attachments.
Somebody said, for each individual, Music is internal and not external. How true ! That is why each one has a different and distinct feeling even though they may be hearing the same piece of music. What he hears internally depends on what all he had heard before. The singer may be singing in a prosaic manner but the listener might be enjoying internally what he had heard from SSI or MDR. The treasure of listening experience helps enjoying CM
Coolji’s quote "Silence is truer and more expressive than speech ; and the hour shall come when we shall be silent. But why muzzle our tongues before that hour has struck ?"
CM and enlightenment
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mohan
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For anyone to be a competent musician, they need to be a competent rasika as well. Only then they will be able to discern between what is good music and bad. Mrudangam doyen Palghat Mani Iyer has said that learning music is 80% listening.coolkarni wrote:I often joke with rajumds that while there are so many instances of performers who are prodigies ( identifying *** number of ragas when they were 2 or years old) I have never come across a listener/rasika who can be called a prodigy !! Even by extending the age limit to say 15 years ....
Being a good rasika is part of the evolutionary process of becoming a musician. Children who are forced into learning music by their parents do not become competent musicians because they just practice what they are taught and don't actually seriously listen to music (other than in class). Some of these children, however, actually develop a liking to what they are learning and get more involved in the music. As their involvement grows, they start listening to more music and become good rasikas. This enhances their skills as musicians as well.
The so-called musical prodigies who could recognise ragas at a very young age were probably just lucky to have exposure to music early. They became a type of rasika very early in life. Seeing this ability, their parents gave them access to more formal music training and (if they persevere and have the right guidance) they can be developed into good musicians.
There are other people who have exposure to music (maybe a little later in life) and may not have the time, resources or will to learn music formally. These people can become our knowledgeable rasikas.
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S.NAGESWARAN
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ragam-talam
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Shivadasan, thank you for a great post.
Your linking the types of yoga to aspects of music is especially interesting. But surely these approaches are not mutually exclusive? For example, one can enjoy the bhakti aspect of a kriti while also appreciating the gnana element. Would such multi-dimensional ability hasten the progress towards enlightenment? Also will it result in a richer quality to the enlightenment experience?
In this context, I do have one question: music is a sensual experience (I use the word here to mean 'related to the senses'), but it seems we have to go beyond the senses to achieve the enlightened state. Is there a conundrum here?
Do feel free to elaborate your points. Your articles are quite insightful.
Your linking the types of yoga to aspects of music is especially interesting. But surely these approaches are not mutually exclusive? For example, one can enjoy the bhakti aspect of a kriti while also appreciating the gnana element. Would such multi-dimensional ability hasten the progress towards enlightenment? Also will it result in a richer quality to the enlightenment experience?
In this context, I do have one question: music is a sensual experience (I use the word here to mean 'related to the senses'), but it seems we have to go beyond the senses to achieve the enlightened state. Is there a conundrum here?
Do feel free to elaborate your points. Your articles are quite insightful.
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arasi
- Posts: 16873
- Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30
ragam-talam,
Interesting that you wonder about the sensual aspect in all this.
Let's say TyAgarAja was enlightened. Let's assume he was a parama yOgi. Forgetting the stories about him for the moment, we do know him through his compsitions. How would one describe his relationship with rAmA?
Meera's with giridhar?
Is it possible to arrive at that yogic state before immersing oneself in the love for one's chosen object of worship? Unless one goes through that exalted state, I don't think it is easy to attain that enlightened state at all.
Interesting that you wonder about the sensual aspect in all this.
Let's say TyAgarAja was enlightened. Let's assume he was a parama yOgi. Forgetting the stories about him for the moment, we do know him through his compsitions. How would one describe his relationship with rAmA?
Meera's with giridhar?
Is it possible to arrive at that yogic state before immersing oneself in the love for one's chosen object of worship? Unless one goes through that exalted state, I don't think it is easy to attain that enlightened state at all.
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Shivadasan
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arasi
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Shivadasan,
I did not mean to say 'sensual' in the narrow sense of the word in which you describe it. I am thinking of a different kind of 'sensing' the greatness of something which is beyond us, call it the Almighty--without immersing oneself in the love for it,, one may not be able to graduate to the yogic state, if at all...
I did not mean to say 'sensual' in the narrow sense of the word in which you describe it. I am thinking of a different kind of 'sensing' the greatness of something which is beyond us, call it the Almighty--without immersing oneself in the love for it,, one may not be able to graduate to the yogic state, if at all...
Last edited by arasi on 10 May 2009, 08:39, edited 1 time in total.
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Nick H
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All of what you say can be applied to many different kinds of music; I cannot conceive how you can limit it to CM!Shivadasan wrote:... ... ...But a CM rasika is different and CM poduces mostly sublime music. His mind is filled with whatever he had heard earlier. When he hears a music his intellect gets involved in it rather than his ears. He might experience the best of music even on a very bad recording. A single musical note produces many images in the mind. If he is a keen listener he might find many facets in the sound. The fact that music keeps the mind occupied is the factor that is helpful to the seeker..
I have found moments, indeed, even long minutes, of enlightenment in music from Mahler (who I would particularly recommend) to rock.
In all that range of music, though, it is the examples that are not mere jingles of entertainment, but demand the attention and involvement of the listener where the treasures are to be found, and they are to be found all over the world.
Of course there is also good light music, and it can be hard to draw the line, but perhaps the enlightening music can be more easily seen against the background of its opposite: the mind-numbing jingle stuff that seems to me to be against all thought, feeling and creativity.
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vasanthakokilam
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Nick: I do not think Shivadasan is limiting it to CM, he just happens to be talking about CM. In a prior post, he mentioned about a similar experience listening to gregorian chants in a church in France.
I can definitely see Mahler type western classical putting someone in a calm mood and possibly losing oneself in that music. I have also seen people getting into a state of trance with music that is quite basic. It is repetitive music along with very repetitive drumming of some kind. Given that context, I can see how one can possibly get into a 'spiritual state' listening to rock music.
But I wonder if these phenomena are same as what we commonly understand 'enlightenment' (defined in other posts in this thread ). With respect to that definition, who knows what happens after someone passes away. It is all belief and faith. But there is another belief/faith in the concept of 'Jeevan-muktha'. Many believe that there are numerous examples of such people in history ( Sri. Ramana Maharishi is the most well known ). Not all schools of Hinduism recognize that state but those who do define it as an irreversible higher state of being while living in this world. Does CM take one there or help take one there?
I can definitely see Mahler type western classical putting someone in a calm mood and possibly losing oneself in that music. I have also seen people getting into a state of trance with music that is quite basic. It is repetitive music along with very repetitive drumming of some kind. Given that context, I can see how one can possibly get into a 'spiritual state' listening to rock music.
But I wonder if these phenomena are same as what we commonly understand 'enlightenment' (defined in other posts in this thread ). With respect to that definition, who knows what happens after someone passes away. It is all belief and faith. But there is another belief/faith in the concept of 'Jeevan-muktha'. Many believe that there are numerous examples of such people in history ( Sri. Ramana Maharishi is the most well known ). Not all schools of Hinduism recognize that state but those who do define it as an irreversible higher state of being while living in this world. Does CM take one there or help take one there?
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Nick H
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Point taken, but Shivadasan does say that carnatic music is different. Maybe it is different for those with a Hindu point of view; tailor made for the job!
The sort of repetitive music that you are describing --- well, it isn't and never was my cup of tea, so I really can't say, and perhaps I shouldn't write it off just because it is not for me. However, even back in my long-haired hippie days, when, goodness knows, I'm afraid I did enough to try to put my brain to sleep, we would have just laughed at it. In fact, I remember one person saying, "listen to this record: it sounds exactly the same wherever I put the needle down on it --- both sides!". We thought it a great joke.
The sort of repetitive music that you are describing --- well, it isn't and never was my cup of tea, so I really can't say, and perhaps I shouldn't write it off just because it is not for me. However, even back in my long-haired hippie days, when, goodness knows, I'm afraid I did enough to try to put my brain to sleep, we would have just laughed at it. In fact, I remember one person saying, "listen to this record: it sounds exactly the same wherever I put the needle down on it --- both sides!". We thought it a great joke.
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ragam-talam
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Shivadasan, of course I didn't use the word 'sensual' in the 'dubba song' meaning at all. I thought my disclaimer would have made that clear.
When I alluded to 'going beyond the senses' I was actually talking about the silence that forms a substrate to CM. I have read somewhere that the silences/pauses between the swaras are where the brahman resides, the ineffable being from where all sounds arise and where they go back to.
And a sensitive listener over time can open themselves to the silence.
To me, this goes back to an earlier post by VK where he uses the language of entropy to describe the transformation phenomenon.
You seem to be saying that we can't make this happen; it happens on its own. But surely one can create the right atmosphere for this to happen?
When I alluded to 'going beyond the senses' I was actually talking about the silence that forms a substrate to CM. I have read somewhere that the silences/pauses between the swaras are where the brahman resides, the ineffable being from where all sounds arise and where they go back to.
And a sensitive listener over time can open themselves to the silence.
To me, this goes back to an earlier post by VK where he uses the language of entropy to describe the transformation phenomenon.
You seem to be saying that we can't make this happen; it happens on its own. But surely one can create the right atmosphere for this to happen?
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srikant1987
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I don't know about spiritual state, but some songs from Metallica are very good.Given that context, I can see how one can possibly get into a 'spiritual state' listening to rock music.
Wherever I May Roam can perhaps put one in trance too. It may not be a happy, pleasant and comfortable trance, but it's a trance nonetheless. I can't say tODi or varALi puts me in a very blissful trance either, but it's a trance I like experiencing once in a while. But the shankarabharanam or begada kind of trance can be experienced any time, any number of times.-
Shivadasan
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Nick : I have mentioned that CM is one of the systems that can help persons on the path of enlightenment. I think that CM has a scope for solemnity which would be lacking in many fast tempo music which do not make effective use of silence. No special credit for CM. Whatever I have told about CM may well be applicable to any other system of music, even western classical. What is important is that we train our minds for intense concentration eschewing worldly thoughts
VK :"
VK :"
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Nick H
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The space between is a potent place of magic.
I have heard it said, long ago in UK, that the magic of music is not in the notes, but in the silences. The dawn and the dusk are the most powerful parts of the day.
I suppose that we can understand this in another way; that music is not in the notes, but in the spaces in between the notes. We know that it is the intervals that make the music!
I have heard it said, long ago in UK, that the magic of music is not in the notes, but in the silences. The dawn and the dusk are the most powerful parts of the day.
I suppose that we can understand this in another way; that music is not in the notes, but in the spaces in between the notes. We know that it is the intervals that make the music!
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shripathi_g
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There have been numerous occasions when I've listened to a particular piece of music and I've become totally immersed in it and then I start thinking about the beauty of it all. The song, the raga, the singer, the composer, the person who founded music, sound, the creator and how everything is brought together in this universe and I get goosebumps all over and I feel as if I'm in a trance. On those days, I'm extremely focused. This usually happens on my way to work. What I've noticed is that I'm discovering new things in renditions that I've listened to numerous times. E.g. Koluvai and Ma Janaki by MMI. I've marveled at the whole piece, the way swaras are sung, the raga itself (Bhairavi or Kamboji) and very recently MMI's clarity of mind when singing those swaras, it felt like not even one note was out of place and yet it was not rehearsed and the ability for someone's expression of creativity to appeal to another person. I find that very fascinating! The more I listen, the more I feel that new doors are being opened for me. It could be a figment of my own imagination but I'm completely amazed at the ability of the mind to explore things on such a deep level.
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srikant1987
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S.NAGESWARAN
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Nick and Coolji,
The emphasis on perceptible pauses [silences] is the most important aspect in any genre of music.
To highlight this point only I have started the QUIZ thread. After getting some wonderful explanations by various Rasikas in the QUIZ thread, I have given the answer finally as below.
[quote="S.NAGESWARAN"]QUIZ.
Since the postings to the above topic have become dormant after 10.04.2009, it is better to know the answers for the quiz from my side now.
I am happy to see the various interesting replies’ to the quiz’. All comments from the Rasikas are good. However the comments of the few following posts have impressed me more.
1. Post No.8 from coolji.
An umpire for the concert - signaling no ball for a sruthi Lapse , wide for a butchering of sahitya , powerplay for unbridled brigha sessions .....
a small radel atop the stumps , humming the relevant perfect pitch - so that the nervous batsman , instead of tapping the ground after a false stroke, can go and twiddle with the screws and settle his nerves.
2. Post no.5 from rajumdas."
The emphasis on perceptible pauses [silences] is the most important aspect in any genre of music.
To highlight this point only I have started the QUIZ thread. After getting some wonderful explanations by various Rasikas in the QUIZ thread, I have given the answer finally as below.
[quote="S.NAGESWARAN"]QUIZ.
Since the postings to the above topic have become dormant after 10.04.2009, it is better to know the answers for the quiz from my side now.
I am happy to see the various interesting replies’ to the quiz’. All comments from the Rasikas are good. However the comments of the few following posts have impressed me more.
1. Post No.8 from coolji.
An umpire for the concert - signaling no ball for a sruthi Lapse , wide for a butchering of sahitya , powerplay for unbridled brigha sessions .....
a small radel atop the stumps , humming the relevant perfect pitch - so that the nervous batsman , instead of tapping the ground after a false stroke, can go and twiddle with the screws and settle his nerves.
2. Post no.5 from rajumdas."
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ragam-talam
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- Joined: 28 Sep 2006, 02:15
Shivadasan, kundalini raising is another approach to enlightenment. Is there a link between that approach and the ones you have outlined? Possibly the effect of the sounds on the chakras?
We have kritis on Mooladhara, the source of kundalini. I wonder if this provides a link between CM and enlightenment.
We have kritis on Mooladhara, the source of kundalini. I wonder if this provides a link between CM and enlightenment.
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Shivadasan
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Dear Ragam-Talam,
The process of enlightenment is one and the same for all persons.
The progress in the path is measured by various schools in various measures. The yoga school measures it with the rising of Kundalini. It is supposed that in a normal person his innate power that resides in him is sleeping (inactive). When his spirituality is awakened the Kundalini is supposed to have waken up. The place where it resides while sleeping is called the ‘Mooladhara’ which is situated at the lower end of the spinal column. This power known as the Serpant Power, after waking up, goes up the Sushumna nadi in the spinal column and reaches the ‘Sahasrara Chakra’ which is supposed to be at the top of the skull. When it reaches Sahsrara enlightenment takes place.
On the way to Shasrara the Serpant Power has to pass through five more chakras. Chakra is a location in the Shusumna nadi which gives the Serpant Power a temporary place to stay on its way to Sahasrara . They are the Swadhishtana Chakra, Manipooraka Chakra, Anahatha Chakra, Vishuddhi Chakra and Agnya Chakra. According to the yogis Swadhishtana is situated a little above the Mooladhara (about the lower part of the belly), Manipooraka is more or less about the navel, Anahatha would be somewhere around the region of heart, Vishuddhi would be in the neck region and Agnya resides between the eye brows.
When Kundalini reaches a Chakra, it bestows on the person additional skills and knowledge. The benefits bestowed by each Chakra is unique. According to some yogic literature the benefits given by Chakras area as follows.
Mooladhara endows a person with knowledge of past present and future ; Swadishtana provides freedom from faults of mind and senses and closeness with deities; Manipooraka gives, poetry,music and oratory skills, knowledge of hidden treasures etc.; Anahatha blesses him with cosmic love and divine virtues; Vishuddhi gives peace, trikala gnana and power of speech; Agnya grants him the Ashta Ma Siddhis and other siddhis.
The Serpant moving through Sushumna is used as a description only . It is not necessary that the Chakras are opened up in the order described above. Any Chakra can open up at any time depending on his past karma and present tapasya. CM or sound patterns might open up the Chakras but I am not aware of any literature on this subject. The very fact that person is great musician shows that some of his Chakras have opened up.
The process of enlightenment is one and the same for all persons.
The progress in the path is measured by various schools in various measures. The yoga school measures it with the rising of Kundalini. It is supposed that in a normal person his innate power that resides in him is sleeping (inactive). When his spirituality is awakened the Kundalini is supposed to have waken up. The place where it resides while sleeping is called the ‘Mooladhara’ which is situated at the lower end of the spinal column. This power known as the Serpant Power, after waking up, goes up the Sushumna nadi in the spinal column and reaches the ‘Sahasrara Chakra’ which is supposed to be at the top of the skull. When it reaches Sahsrara enlightenment takes place.
On the way to Shasrara the Serpant Power has to pass through five more chakras. Chakra is a location in the Shusumna nadi which gives the Serpant Power a temporary place to stay on its way to Sahasrara . They are the Swadhishtana Chakra, Manipooraka Chakra, Anahatha Chakra, Vishuddhi Chakra and Agnya Chakra. According to the yogis Swadhishtana is situated a little above the Mooladhara (about the lower part of the belly), Manipooraka is more or less about the navel, Anahatha would be somewhere around the region of heart, Vishuddhi would be in the neck region and Agnya resides between the eye brows.
When Kundalini reaches a Chakra, it bestows on the person additional skills and knowledge. The benefits bestowed by each Chakra is unique. According to some yogic literature the benefits given by Chakras area as follows.
Mooladhara endows a person with knowledge of past present and future ; Swadishtana provides freedom from faults of mind and senses and closeness with deities; Manipooraka gives, poetry,music and oratory skills, knowledge of hidden treasures etc.; Anahatha blesses him with cosmic love and divine virtues; Vishuddhi gives peace, trikala gnana and power of speech; Agnya grants him the Ashta Ma Siddhis and other siddhis.
The Serpant moving through Sushumna is used as a description only . It is not necessary that the Chakras are opened up in the order described above. Any Chakra can open up at any time depending on his past karma and present tapasya. CM or sound patterns might open up the Chakras but I am not aware of any literature on this subject. The very fact that person is great musician shows that some of his Chakras have opened up.
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ragam-talam
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- Joined: 28 Sep 2006, 02:15
Dear Shivadasan,
Very interesting as always. I do know that three bandhas are used in yoga to help move kundalini energy upwards towards the Sahasrara chakra: Moola bandha, Uddiyana bandha and Jalandhara bandha. Moola bandha works at the pelvic region, Uddiyana bandha at the abdominal region, and Jalandhara bandha at the throat region. It seems that a lot of CM may be geared towards the activation of these three regions - kritis such as Mooladhara moorthe, Sri Jalandhara, Shobillu saptaswara seem to speak about these centres. Surely gayathri and pranava mantra chanting must have an effect on the chakras.
I do have a question for you: based on the way you speak about these topics, it seems you have experienced some of the things you are talking about, and it's not just bookish knowledge. If it's ok with you, could you please share with us.
If you prefer, I can contact you by personal mail. Do let me know.
Very interesting as always. I do know that three bandhas are used in yoga to help move kundalini energy upwards towards the Sahasrara chakra: Moola bandha, Uddiyana bandha and Jalandhara bandha. Moola bandha works at the pelvic region, Uddiyana bandha at the abdominal region, and Jalandhara bandha at the throat region. It seems that a lot of CM may be geared towards the activation of these three regions - kritis such as Mooladhara moorthe, Sri Jalandhara, Shobillu saptaswara seem to speak about these centres. Surely gayathri and pranava mantra chanting must have an effect on the chakras.
I do have a question for you: based on the way you speak about these topics, it seems you have experienced some of the things you are talking about, and it's not just bookish knowledge. If it's ok with you, could you please share with us.
If you prefer, I can contact you by personal mail. Do let me know.
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Shivadasan
- Posts: 251
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 07:52
Dear Ragam Talam,
The tribandhas are purely physical processes used in Hatha Yoga while doing pranayamam
JAlandhara Bandha is done by locking the chin in the neck by bending the head forward.
Uddyana Bandha is done by pulling the stomach inside.
Moola Bandha is done by sitting on Siddhasana with the heel closing the anus and pulling it inside. It has no connection with Mooladhara Chakra
The bandhas are used together after inhaling maximum air in the lungs. The air gets locked in for sometime and there must some effects on the body and mind. It is one of the steps in Hatha Yoga.
JAlandhara, a disciple of Mahasiddha Matsyenranath, was a great Hatha Yogi. This bandha has been named in his memory. The place where Yogi JAlandhara lived is known as JAlandhara Pitha. It seems it is located in the Kangra valley of northwest India and close to the modern city of Jullundar. The region of the neck is also named as JAlandhara Pitha in sahasranamas and some texts. May be it is connected with Vishuddi Chakra.
I have been unable to locate the words of the krithi Sri Jalandhara and I am therefore unable to comment on that. The bandhas are physical processes whereas the Chakras are psychic centers. I think our Trinity might not have sung about the Hatha Yoga processes . What our krithis usually mention should be the Chakras and not the yogic processes. But we can find mention of the yogic processes in many of the compositions in Tamil, particularly by Thirumoolar, Vallalar and other yogis.
I have already mentioned that any mantra japa would help to open up the Chakras. When the mind is in intense concentration the Chakras open up.
Even though I am yet to have any spectacular ‘experience’, I am an avid reader of spiritual texts and my capacity to analyse leads me to certain conclusions. I have some information on the process of thinking on account of my involvement with japa and meditation technique. That is all. If you are interested in contacting me on email you may do so at [email protected].
Shivadasan
The tribandhas are purely physical processes used in Hatha Yoga while doing pranayamam
JAlandhara Bandha is done by locking the chin in the neck by bending the head forward.
Uddyana Bandha is done by pulling the stomach inside.
Moola Bandha is done by sitting on Siddhasana with the heel closing the anus and pulling it inside. It has no connection with Mooladhara Chakra
The bandhas are used together after inhaling maximum air in the lungs. The air gets locked in for sometime and there must some effects on the body and mind. It is one of the steps in Hatha Yoga.
JAlandhara, a disciple of Mahasiddha Matsyenranath, was a great Hatha Yogi. This bandha has been named in his memory. The place where Yogi JAlandhara lived is known as JAlandhara Pitha. It seems it is located in the Kangra valley of northwest India and close to the modern city of Jullundar. The region of the neck is also named as JAlandhara Pitha in sahasranamas and some texts. May be it is connected with Vishuddi Chakra.
I have been unable to locate the words of the krithi Sri Jalandhara and I am therefore unable to comment on that. The bandhas are physical processes whereas the Chakras are psychic centers. I think our Trinity might not have sung about the Hatha Yoga processes . What our krithis usually mention should be the Chakras and not the yogic processes. But we can find mention of the yogic processes in many of the compositions in Tamil, particularly by Thirumoolar, Vallalar and other yogis.
I have already mentioned that any mantra japa would help to open up the Chakras. When the mind is in intense concentration the Chakras open up.
Even though I am yet to have any spectacular ‘experience’, I am an avid reader of spiritual texts and my capacity to analyse leads me to certain conclusions. I have some information on the process of thinking on account of my involvement with japa and meditation technique. That is all. If you are interested in contacting me on email you may do so at [email protected].
Shivadasan
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rajesh_rs
- Posts: 184
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Enlightenment is a dangerous term to throw around, but I'd like to share that by taking to Carnatic music and listening to a wide variety of devotional pieces, my interest in religion and philosophy has improved. The whole experience of listening to Carnatic music (and also playing it at times) has been quite rewarding personally, as a stress sink, especially on busy days after work. It has also kept me thinking about new things, because music typically exercises your brain, whether you're listening or performing it. It is possible to reach a state of consonance with music, when you listen to music as your chief leisure. The multitude of moods in music help tone and perfect our responses to situations and react in a more "equanimitous" manner.
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arasi
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Shivadasan
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arasi
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What I meant when I agreed with rajesh_rs: bhakti, hinduism, Truth are are a few examples of words which can be interpreted in many different ways and thus affect different people in different ways. While I agree that it is possible for a few to aspire for (certainly) and attain (?) enlightenment, it is a bit odd to bandy the word about casually. To have enlightening moments is possible for most humans. To 'be' enlightened? I don't know.
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ragam-talam
- Posts: 1896
- Joined: 28 Sep 2006, 02:15
Dear Shivadasan,
Your comment that the bandhas work only at the physical level and not on the chakras seems to be at odds with some of the literature I have read. My understanding is that the chakras can be activated by these bandhas and other hatha yoga asanas and mudras.
In particular, the three bandhas are used to activate kundalini energy which rises to the sahasrara chakra, helping in the enlightenment process.
You also mention meditation techniques you have been following. I would be interested in learning about these.
I was able to find the words and meaning of the Tyagaraja kriti Shobillu saptaswara at http://www.ecse.rpi.edu/Homepages/shivk ... obillu.htm :
[quote]Pallavi:
Shobillu Saptaswara Sundarula Bhajimpave Manasa!
Anupallavi:
Naabhi Hrut Kanta Rasana NaasaadhulaYandu
Charanam:
Dhara Rig Saamaadulalo Vara Gaayathri Hrudayamuna
Sura Bhusura Maanasamuna Shubha Tyagarajuni Yeda
MEANING:
O Mind ("manasa"
Your comment that the bandhas work only at the physical level and not on the chakras seems to be at odds with some of the literature I have read. My understanding is that the chakras can be activated by these bandhas and other hatha yoga asanas and mudras.
In particular, the three bandhas are used to activate kundalini energy which rises to the sahasrara chakra, helping in the enlightenment process.
You also mention meditation techniques you have been following. I would be interested in learning about these.
I was able to find the words and meaning of the Tyagaraja kriti Shobillu saptaswara at http://www.ecse.rpi.edu/Homepages/shivk ... obillu.htm :
[quote]Pallavi:
Shobillu Saptaswara Sundarula Bhajimpave Manasa!
Anupallavi:
Naabhi Hrut Kanta Rasana NaasaadhulaYandu
Charanam:
Dhara Rig Saamaadulalo Vara Gaayathri Hrudayamuna
Sura Bhusura Maanasamuna Shubha Tyagarajuni Yeda
MEANING:
O Mind ("manasa"
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sundarramanathan
- Posts: 3
- Joined: 22 Oct 2008, 13:55
Permit me to share some of my thoughts, my understanding of things.
Enlightenment is to reach "inward", to slip into the warp in the time and space dimensions and move beyond the past and the present and that which we perceive with our sense organs. Essentially the sense organs tend to kindle desires within us, which leads to pursuits which are contrary to what pursuit of enlightenment means- that is non- duality, acceptance of people, situations, etc.
Here I am, aged 51. On the spiritual path for the last 7 or 8 years. Till a couple of years back, had just a general kind of interest in music, not objecting to any music as long as it is not played too loud.
Two years back, I felt a sudden urge to learn music. People who knew me thought it ridiculous. I found a teacher, a 74 year old gentleman. Am learning the keyboard and what i learn is what he calls Divya nama sankirtana.
Suddenly a new world has opened up to me. My experiences with myself, particularly while listening to music are more intense. I listen a lot to CM whenever I get an opportunity. The music skills I have picked up may be limited. I may not understand all that you nice folk discuss in this forum. But then I enjoy CM. I dont even understand much of the Saahithyam, but then CM frequently brings tears to my eyes.
My spiritual experience stands sharpened after I came closer to CM.
Spirituality is, as I understand, pursuit of enlightenment. Those who are enlightened would not be responding to worldly pursuits and therefore enlightenment, I think, can only be pursued and CM certainly helps in the process.
Enlightenment is to reach "inward", to slip into the warp in the time and space dimensions and move beyond the past and the present and that which we perceive with our sense organs. Essentially the sense organs tend to kindle desires within us, which leads to pursuits which are contrary to what pursuit of enlightenment means- that is non- duality, acceptance of people, situations, etc.
Here I am, aged 51. On the spiritual path for the last 7 or 8 years. Till a couple of years back, had just a general kind of interest in music, not objecting to any music as long as it is not played too loud.
Two years back, I felt a sudden urge to learn music. People who knew me thought it ridiculous. I found a teacher, a 74 year old gentleman. Am learning the keyboard and what i learn is what he calls Divya nama sankirtana.
Suddenly a new world has opened up to me. My experiences with myself, particularly while listening to music are more intense. I listen a lot to CM whenever I get an opportunity. The music skills I have picked up may be limited. I may not understand all that you nice folk discuss in this forum. But then I enjoy CM. I dont even understand much of the Saahithyam, but then CM frequently brings tears to my eyes.
My spiritual experience stands sharpened after I came closer to CM.
Spirituality is, as I understand, pursuit of enlightenment. Those who are enlightened would not be responding to worldly pursuits and therefore enlightenment, I think, can only be pursued and CM certainly helps in the process.
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Shivadasan
- Posts: 251
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 07:52
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Shivadasan
- Posts: 251
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 07:52
Thanks to sundarramanathan’s post I got reminded that I had failed to mention about one more aspect of CM viz., Nama Sankirthana Yoga. This is practiced by people who do not have any Swara or Laya knowledge but are deeply moved by the bhava of the music. I am told that the our sacred texts lay down Nama Snkirthana as the only effective remedy for Kali Yuga. While trained rasikas like us are distracted by imperfections or non adherence of rules, he does not worry about the tunefulness of the voice, not upset about wrong grammar, not bothered about the language, not bothered whether it is CM or HM, not mindful about whether the nama is of Shiva or Vishnu or any other deity. He is absorbed in the chanting. I have seen in many Bhajana groups the main singer might not have had any training in CM at all but the wonder of wonders is that he would be singing excellent Bhairavi, or Kambodhi, or Sahana. ! Many followers would be following the tune fairly correctly and they might not even know the name of the ragas. Regular participation in the Bhajana groups would eventually lead the person in the path towards enlightenment. Tuneful singing and correct rendering of ragas would make the Bhajan session an unforgettable experience even for connoisseurs also.
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mazhai
- Posts: 50
- Joined: 08 May 2009, 11:18
Sanjay Subramanyan had joked in Margazhi Mahotsavam on this very topic
when asked by a rasika about whether he feels that music and spirituality are intertwined, he said, 'this question can be best answered by Shri Shri Ravishankar. For me music is just plain music. I dont find any connection between the two'.
I must say, I cant agree more with his ideaology....
Appreciating the beauty of the lyrics of a certain song dosent mean u r spiritually inclined towards it. the composers who composed the songs were spiritually inclined and that state is impossible to achieve by lay people like us.
when asked by a rasika about whether he feels that music and spirituality are intertwined, he said, 'this question can be best answered by Shri Shri Ravishankar. For me music is just plain music. I dont find any connection between the two'.
I must say, I cant agree more with his ideaology....
Appreciating the beauty of the lyrics of a certain song dosent mean u r spiritually inclined towards it. the composers who composed the songs were spiritually inclined and that state is impossible to achieve by lay people like us.
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vasanthakokilam
- Posts: 10958
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
mazhai : I very much appreciate Sanjay's frank talk about it and understand fully your position. At the same time, we need to keep in mind that on the topic of this thread, Sanjay's opinion counts on equal terms with any non-artist rasikas' personal experience, no more no less. We are talking about what happens at the receiving end of music and not at the source end.
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arasi
- Posts: 16873
- Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30
I heard Sanjay on the program (a bit of humor there--allowed also among the practitioners of music as well as rasikAs on this forum, I hope. A discussion is going on at the moment about humor).
I do remember his saying: you have to ask Sri Sri Ravi Sankar!--with a smile. Did he elaborate on it seriously? I don't think so.
I do remember his saying: you have to ask Sri Sri Ravi Sankar!--with a smile. Did he elaborate on it seriously? I don't think so.
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vasanthakokilam
- Posts: 10958
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
This is sort of related to the topic at hand:
I recently read about a report from the Laboratory of Neuroimaging, UCLA that regular meditation can increase the size of brain areas that regulate emotion. I did not read the report itself but only a few sentences about the report. I am throwing this out here wondering, if, may be, CM type of music does something like that to the brain!! ( wild speculation!! )
I recently read about a report from the Laboratory of Neuroimaging, UCLA that regular meditation can increase the size of brain areas that regulate emotion. I did not read the report itself but only a few sentences about the report. I am throwing this out here wondering, if, may be, CM type of music does something like that to the brain!! ( wild speculation!! )
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vasanthakokilam
- Posts: 10958
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
Here is an article that talks about the details of the study: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 134655.htm
Here is the link to the actual paper itself
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_o ... 83de8691c6
Unfortunately, only the abstract is viewable. For the rest, including the subjects, methods and experimental setup which is what you are interested, one has to login to sciencedirect. I do not have login credentials for that site.
One thing to keep in mind is, this is a 'snap shot' study which has one major caveat: the possible reversal of cause and effect. Did the meditators take to meditation because of the structural difference in their brain or the meditation changed the structure of the brain? The first article does address this caveat, I thought it is worthwhile highlighting that point.
But I guess given this data, it shoud be enticing enough for the labs to initiate a long term study of people beginning from their initiation through their meditating years.
Here is the link to the actual paper itself
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_o ... 83de8691c6
Unfortunately, only the abstract is viewable. For the rest, including the subjects, methods and experimental setup which is what you are interested, one has to login to sciencedirect. I do not have login credentials for that site.
One thing to keep in mind is, this is a 'snap shot' study which has one major caveat: the possible reversal of cause and effect. Did the meditators take to meditation because of the structural difference in their brain or the meditation changed the structure of the brain? The first article does address this caveat, I thought it is worthwhile highlighting that point.
But I guess given this data, it shoud be enticing enough for the labs to initiate a long term study of people beginning from their initiation through their meditating years.
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ksrimech
- Posts: 1050
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 04:25
The underlying anatomical correlates of long-term meditation: Larger hippocampal and frontal volumes of gray matter
Abstract:
Although the systematic study of meditation is still in its infancy, research has provided evidence for meditation-induced improvements in psychological and physiological well-being. Moreover, meditation practice has been shown not only to benefit higher-order cognitive functions but also to alter brain activity. Nevertheless, little is known about possible links to brain structure. Using high-resolution MRI data of 44 subjects, we set out to examine the underlying anatomical correlates of long-term meditation with different regional specificity (i.e., global, regional, and local). For this purpose, we applied voxel-based morphometry in association with a recently validated automated parcellation approach. We detected significantly larger gray matter volumes in meditators in the right orbito-frontal cortex (as well as in the right thalamus and left inferior temporal gyrus when co-varying for age and/or lowering applied statistical thresholds). In addition, meditators showed significantly larger volumes of the right hippocampus. Both orbito-frontal and hippocampal regions have been implicated in emotional regulation and response control. Thus, larger volumes in these regions might account for meditators' singular abilities and habits to cultivate positive
emotions, retain emotional stability, and engage in mindful behavior. We further suggest that these regional alterations in brain structures constitute part of the underlying neurological correlate of long-term meditation independent of a specific style and practice. Future longitudinal analyses are necessary to establish the presence and direction of a causal link between meditation practice and brain anatomy.
http://rapidshare.de/files/47264429/sdarticle.pdf.html
Abstract:
Although the systematic study of meditation is still in its infancy, research has provided evidence for meditation-induced improvements in psychological and physiological well-being. Moreover, meditation practice has been shown not only to benefit higher-order cognitive functions but also to alter brain activity. Nevertheless, little is known about possible links to brain structure. Using high-resolution MRI data of 44 subjects, we set out to examine the underlying anatomical correlates of long-term meditation with different regional specificity (i.e., global, regional, and local). For this purpose, we applied voxel-based morphometry in association with a recently validated automated parcellation approach. We detected significantly larger gray matter volumes in meditators in the right orbito-frontal cortex (as well as in the right thalamus and left inferior temporal gyrus when co-varying for age and/or lowering applied statistical thresholds). In addition, meditators showed significantly larger volumes of the right hippocampus. Both orbito-frontal and hippocampal regions have been implicated in emotional regulation and response control. Thus, larger volumes in these regions might account for meditators' singular abilities and habits to cultivate positive
emotions, retain emotional stability, and engage in mindful behavior. We further suggest that these regional alterations in brain structures constitute part of the underlying neurological correlate of long-term meditation independent of a specific style and practice. Future longitudinal analyses are necessary to establish the presence and direction of a causal link between meditation practice and brain anatomy.
http://rapidshare.de/files/47264429/sdarticle.pdf.html
Last edited by ksrimech on 23 May 2009, 03:41, edited 1 time in total.
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vasanthakokilam
- Posts: 10958
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
Thanks very much ksrimech.
Here are some relevant snippets to answer VKR's question:
Years of meditation practice ranged between five and 46 years
(mean: 24.18 years [SD: 12.36]), where styles included Zazen,
Samatha, Vipassana, and others. Although long-time practices can
vary greatly (over time and with respect to the mental exercises
performed), more than half of all meditators indicated deep
concentration as being an essential part of their practice (63%).
About a third of them engaged control of breath (36%), visualization
(32%), as well as attention to external and internal stimuli/events
(32%). Other elements, however less frequently indicated, included
withdrawal of sensory perceptions (14%) and letting go of thoughts
(18%). The length of formal meditation ranged from 10 to 90 min each
session, with the majority of meditators (59%) having sessions daily.
Here are some relevant snippets to answer VKR's question:
Years of meditation practice ranged between five and 46 years
(mean: 24.18 years [SD: 12.36]), where styles included Zazen,
Samatha, Vipassana, and others. Although long-time practices can
vary greatly (over time and with respect to the mental exercises
performed), more than half of all meditators indicated deep
concentration as being an essential part of their practice (63%).
About a third of them engaged control of breath (36%), visualization
(32%), as well as attention to external and internal stimuli/events
(32%). Other elements, however less frequently indicated, included
withdrawal of sensory perceptions (14%) and letting go of thoughts
(18%). The length of formal meditation ranged from 10 to 90 min each
session, with the majority of meditators (59%) having sessions daily.
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uday_shankar
- Posts: 1475
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:37
Never.VK RAMAN wrote:If so, does medidation include devotional singing.
All music, devotional or otherwise, is sensual stimulation. Carnatic music can be worse than sensual stimulation because it is also intellectual stimulation. It is utter foolishness to seek a meditative state through anything other than serious introspection/self-enquiry along with good karmic activities.
The eternal is formless and steeped in mauna. It is seriously delusional to expect to attain that state of mauna through all this sensual and/or intellectual stimulation !
Last edited by Guest on 23 May 2009, 04:19, edited 1 time in total.
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arasi
- Posts: 16873
- Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30
Uday,
You are Uday (of ideas), and you are also good when it comes to dealing out udais
Vidya,
I would like to frame what you said and keep, but I am not that sentimental
bArati says that gItA teaches us common sense (wisdom about living) and that many people do not see it but see dogmas in its place. So, good karmic activities are not a bad thing!
You are Uday (of ideas), and you are also good when it comes to dealing out udais
Vidya,
I would like to frame what you said and keep, but I am not that sentimental
bArati says that gItA teaches us common sense (wisdom about living) and that many people do not see it but see dogmas in its place. So, good karmic activities are not a bad thing!