Graha/Sruthi bedam

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 11 Jan 2007, 06:41

And it would be great if you could include a graha-bhedam in the upcoming quiz!

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 11 Jan 2007, 06:52

jayaram wrote:That was an interesting lesson. Well done, teacher and student! This illustrates the algorithm quite well.

You are the primary student

. The lesson was done at your request. Did the lesson clear your doubts?

DRS, this scheme cannot work for ragas with vakra-swaras, or can it??

It can. There is no guarrantee of course that you will get a meaningful or known rAga(vakra or otherwise).

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 11 Jan 2007, 18:08

Aren't we all eternal students of this great ocean.

Are there any popular vakra murchanas out there?

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 11 Jan 2007, 18:25

jayaram wrote:Aren't we all eternal students of this great ocean. ?

Thats very tongue in cheek. SOme students will always be mischievous and a tad unruly

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 11 Jan 2007, 19:16

Now, when I did I call DRS unruly?

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 11 Jan 2007, 19:18

Ah! I see now! A thick student. i can forgive that

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 11 Jan 2007, 19:25

On a less tongue-in-cheek note...DRS, do inlcude a graha-bhedam in your quiz. Could make it challenging (for the thick students, that is!). Want to do a trial run within the next week?

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 11 Jan 2007, 20:34

here is one (i had asked this on sangeetham long time ago). Experts like DRS not allowed to answer

What is the raga whose structure is such that graha-bedham on ANY of its swaras simply gets you back to the raga itself.

(if you dont know the raga name, just give the structure)

Arun

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 11 Jan 2007, 20:43

What an intriguing rAga Arun.

SiSur vEtti paSur vEtti vEtti gAnarasam phaNiH

Children, animals/cows and even the snakes love music!

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 11 Jan 2007, 20:48

i am not catching the drift - drs. (or is that a quiz on the quiz

!? )

Perhaps you could explain it more, once the answer is revealed.

Arun

rajumds · Post by **rajumds** » 11 Jan 2007, 21:52

thanks drs

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 11 Jan 2007, 21:59

acalam shrutibhedarahitam shrIkAntam gOpriyaM

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 11 Jan 2007, 22:12

sneaky cmlover (and i did get that part in drs' post

). But you were there on sangeetham.com, you shouldnt have been allowed to answer too

Arun

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 11 Jan 2007, 22:48

For people who got the last one, pl. try this one. The answer is actually well-known but the question is more about the "answer behind the answer"

.

If one were to ask, which is the raga whose graha-bedham on its madhyama gives you the counter-part prati-madyama raga, then there can only be one raga, as the question itself points to a specific raga structure.

In fact, i believe this is the only raga whose graha-bedham on the madhyama yields the counter-part raga with "other madyama".

Arun

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 11 Jan 2007, 23:01

Let's just say one of the rAgas was termed rAga rAja

, and it remains so to this day.
Sri Lakshman had shown by numbers that it had the highest number of compositions in his composition bank a few months ago.

And its madhyama mUrchane givea another extremely popular rAga, but was thought
to be unfit for compositions and described as as a 'raga loved only by muslims' by an eminent
author of a very important musicological work 4 centuries ago

-Ramakriya

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 11 Jan 2007, 23:01

Arun
Now I want this to be your last question for now. You are exhausting questions for the quiz I was thinking of putting up. Do you want to do the quiz? No problem with that also. There can be more than one

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 11 Jan 2007, 23:05

oops sorry drs! Anyway those were the only 2 i knew

I already did the quiz thing (it was more like crossword). I will let you do it. It would be better anyways

!

ramakriya - correct. Can i presume you know why it is the only one?

Arun

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 11 Jan 2007, 23:10

kind of - sort of.. But if you have a mathematical proof (theorem) do send it to me

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 11 Jan 2007, 23:13

arunk wrote:oops sorry drs! Anyway those were the only 2 i knew I already did the quiz thing (it was more like crossword).

Arun

I remember your crossword! Just that I forgot it was you who posted in S board.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 11 Jan 2007, 23:23

ramakriya - i emailed you the "proof". Its a logical proof. Should be possible to reduce to a mathematical proof/theorem.

Arun

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 11 Jan 2007, 23:28

Email the same to me too Arun.

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 11 Jan 2007, 23:32

Arun - perhaps you can upload it somewhere (e.g. yousendit) and provide the link

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 12 Jan 2007, 00:38

Here it is:
http://arunk.freepgs.com/gb_proof.html

Arun

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 12 Jan 2007, 00:49

Arun
Re your question

Now is there a prati-madhyama raga, which will become its suddha-madhyama counterpart after a graha bedham on its madhyama?

The answer is NO. grahabhEda on M2 will "Always" yield M2 in the new rAga. M2 value being 6, to make it ShaDja, you must add or subtract 6 which automatically makes the prsent ShaDja as the new pratimadhyama.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 12 Jan 2007, 01:04

very correct. Concisely put!

If after graha-bedham if one were to get M1 (say it is a raga with M2 and N3 to begin with), you will end up with M1 and M2, as N3 becomes M1, and S* becomes M2. It certainly would not be the prati-madyama counterpart but one could conceive of a raga using M2 in aro and M1 in avaro perhaps

?

Arun

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 12 Jan 2007, 01:52

S ... M .. N3 S*
3. Since N3 becomes M2 after graha-bedham then S* (tara shadja) would become P. Since all our swaras except the madhayama would be present before and after the bedham (as we are going from a M1 raga to its prati-madhyama counterpart), our raga has to have P. So we have
S ... M1 P ... N3 S*

Arun

Your quesstion is on a 'raga' and not a mela! Hence all svaras need not be present to start with.
The S* (tara shadja) becomes P in the grahabhedaad raga. It now does not follow that the original raga 'must' have contained P!

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 12 Jan 2007, 02:06

cmlover,

the question was "which raga becomes its prati-madyama counterpart". The term "prati-madyama counterpart" implies that before and after graha-bedham you have same swaras except for madyama (i.e. only madyama is different between the original raga and the raga after bedham).

Here we determined that P must be there after graha-bedham. Since it obviously is not the madyama, it must be there before also (again per the counterpart term).

Arun

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 12 Jan 2007, 03:13

Arun, very interesting stuff. Btw, when I suggested we include graha-bhedam in the quiz, I was referring more to recognition of audio clips of ragams. And, we could use mnsriram's help to create the audio clips.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 12 Jan 2007, 03:26

jayaram wrote:Btw, when I suggested we include graha-bhedam in the quiz, I was referring more to recognition of audio clips of ragams. And, we could use mnsriram's help to create the audio clips.

And drs too. (drs - see i didnt spoil your party

!!)

BTW, any takers on the first problem? jayaram? ranjani? suji?

(BTW i believe there are two possibilities which fit the bill, people have hinted at the first, whats the structure of other?)

Arun

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 12 Jan 2007, 03:29

arunk wrote:very correct. Concisely put!

If after graha-bedham if one were to get M1 (say it is a raga with M2 and N3 to begin with), you will end up with M1 and M2, as N3 becomes M1, and S* becomes M2. It certainly would not be the prati-madyama counterpart but one could conceive of a raga using M2 in aro and M1 in avaro perhaps ?

Arun

This would become a new rAga originating from madhyama grAma

in the genus of lalit!

-Ramakriya

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 12 Jan 2007, 03:30

arunk wrote:BTW, any takers on the first problem? jayaram? ranjani? suji?

(BTW i believe there are two possibilities which fit the bill, people have hinted at the first, whats the structure of other?)

Arun

arunk,

Which problem are you talking about here? Am I missing something?

-Ramakriya

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 12 Jan 2007, 03:38

post #55 only (raga whose graha-bedham on any consitituent swaras yields itself)

Arun

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 12 Jan 2007, 03:40

arunk wrote:post #55 only (raga whose graha-bedham on any consitituent swaras yields itself)

Arun

Just give me some more time

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 12 Jan 2007, 03:41

arunk wrote:post #55 only (raga whose graha-bedham on any consitituent swaras yields itself)

Arun

oh! It is a raga loved by cows, born of a mELa loved by bulls

-Ramakriya

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 12 Jan 2007, 03:44

i was saying that there is one more (i think)

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 12 Jan 2007, 03:52

Arun - quick look at the swara-sthanas seems to suggest that if we work with a raga which uses all the equally spaced swaras, it should get us the desired result. i.e. 0,2,4,6,8,10 - right?

(ah, i see ramakriya has given this answer already!)
answer 2: how about 0,3,6,9,12 ?
-darn, missed it by a few seconds again!

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 12 Jan 2007, 03:57

Yes sir, There is one more

Don't know if Sri BMK has tried it! for it falls in swarantara - swarantara type of rAga, in which category he has some of his creations (mahatI, sumukham etc)

S R3 M2 D2 S - S D2 M2 R3 S ( This scale would be a janya of 70th mELa nAsikA bhUshaNi) - So till then can we call it aruNabhUShaNi, if that scale doesn't (yet) show up in books ? Sri Lakshman may be of help here.

You could also make it as

S G2 M2 D2 S - S D2 M2 G2 S ( a janya of 46th mELa shaDvidha mArgiNi. I will tentatively call it aruNamArgiNi.

what do other rasikas say?

-Ramakriya

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 12 Jan 2007, 04:01

jayaram - correct analysis! BTW, the raga is gOpriya as hinted by drs, cmlover and ramakriya.

ramakriya - yep (but you have to allow BMK styled ragas

).

Arun

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 12 Jan 2007, 04:02

arunk wrote:jayaram - correct analysis! BTW, the raga is gOpriya as hinted by drs, cmlover and ramakriya.

ramakriya - yep (but you have to allow BMK styled ragas ).

Arun

Didn't you already know that I am a BMK pankhA?

-Ramakriya

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 12 Jan 2007, 04:02

ok
0, 2,4,6,8,10
S R2 G3 M2 D1 N2

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 12 Jan 2007, 04:03

correct suji!

Arun

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 12 Jan 2007, 04:04

Ah!
we all posted at the same time. -geniuses

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 12 Jan 2007, 04:08

jayaram wrote:answer 2: how about 0,3,6,9,12 ?
-darn, missed it by a few seconds again!

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 12 Jan 2007, 04:10

ramakriya wrote:S G2 M2 D2 S - S D2 M2 G2 S ( a janya of 46th mELa shaDvidha mArgiNi.

It can be a janya od 46, 47, 48 or 58, 59 or 60th mELas.

Arun- I did not know you were looking for a hypothetical rAga. Its easy to say which as we are looking at ARithmetic progressions here.

gOpriya has swaras whose numerical values will be 0,2,4,6,8,10

The above rAga is 0,3,6,9

You can also have a triswari rAga 0,4, 8 which will be S G3 D1.

The swarAntara, it makes more sense to have G2 than call it R3.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 12 Jan 2007, 04:13

Now how do we add all the numbers while singing/Playing?

Actually once while in class my P string went out of tune a little, I simply adjusted my fingers a little (May be my mind was already calculating). Ended up with smiles from the teacher.

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 12 Jan 2007, 04:15

You can also have a triswari rAga 0,4, 8 which will be S G3 D1.

Is this the bare minimum no. of swaras to constitute a raga? Or is it 4?

visalakshi · Post by **visalakshi** » 12 Jan 2007, 04:23

sama vedam, rendered by priests in temples and rudrabhishekas,

what ragam is that?. seems to have 3 or 4 swarams only.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 12 Jan 2007, 04:35

drs - only gOpriya would be probably be considered a valid answer.

The other one with 4 swaras maybe (after BMK extended the concept). If we have to go lower, it gets pretty silly. But if we are going there, you forgot two more

. You have S M2 S*, and of course the simply steady S S*

;)

Arun

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 12 Jan 2007, 04:40

arunk wrote:The other one with 4 swaras maybe (after BMK extended the concept).

The M2 and the absence of P makes the rAga pretty unsteady. M1 would have clinched it. When I try to sing, Im thinking singing it as R3 may be easier than as G2. WIll have to try seriously.

If we have to go lower, it gets pretty silly. But if we are going there, you forgot two more . You have M2 S*, and of course the simply steady S S* ;)

Are you aware that C.Rangiah has composed songs with just 1, 2 and 3 swaras?

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 12 Jan 2007, 04:43

wow! No - i didnt know that!

Arun