are we too relaxed with shruthi????

[martin]

[>>>How is sruti handled in western classical vocal music? (...) <<<

Not in one single way, anyhow. It depends whether one looks to mainstream symphonic and chambermusic performed on modern type instruments or baroque music played on baroque instruments or medieval music etc. For all these different styles of music in the history of WCM intrinsically have their specific aesthetics and tuning systems and pitch-references, as A has not always been fixed at 440 Hz. Basiccally, the medieval music (as far as it is modal and monophonic) is what is most similar in nature to ICM. Comparison of the esthetics or theory of later Western music is often only confusing and not to the point as very little values are common. By the way, not only ICM suffers from bad intonation or lack of pitch consistency, it happens just as much in WCM.
To compare general music aesthetics, tuning systems and matters of intonation between WCM and ICM therefore does not seem very fruitful to me.

[martin]

How is sruti handled in western classical vocal music? I would think they maintain their accuracy in pitch based on the piano that is played along. However, the piano does not continually show the sa-pa-sa notes like our tambura/tanpura. Then how do they manage pitch perfection in WM while we find the tambura/tanpura indispensible in Indian classical music and yet see sruti lapses in our performances?

Gregorian chant is sung without any form of accompaniment or external shruti-reference. I myself have practiced intensely this medieval latin song. In the resonant acoustics, a good singer creates his own 'tanpura'. All three religions ' of the Book" share the tradition of reciting holy texts in ornate ways - without instruments, yet maintaining high standards of intonation. Mind you that the common image created by the flaccid singing of contemporary monks is actually not at all representative.

[vasanthakokilam]

(...) Coming to the point, what is the Pa sound doing when singing a raga without Pa like a ranjani or HIndolam. you cannot quickly switch to Sa Ma Sa with a tambura where it is cumbersome. But I wish we could do it. A good tambura box comes to rescue.

When this kind of concern for ' convenience ' takes the upper hand it always gets me wondering if you people are impatient by nature or just lazy... what's the big deal here? Tuning pa to ma (or the reverse) is done in a few minutes, since when is everybody so rushed that his should be a problem?

Martin: Let us not personalizie or over-generalize. It has been quite an illuminating discussion so far and let us continue with the discussion. Thanks.

[martin]

(...) Coming to the point, what is the Pa sound doing when singing a raga without Pa like a ranjani or HIndolam. you cannot quickly switch to Sa Ma Sa with a tambura where it is cumbersome. But I wish we could do it. A good tambura box comes to rescue.

When this kind of concern for ' convenience ' takes the upper hand it always gets me wondering if you people are impatient by nature or just lazy... what's the big deal here? Tuning pa to ma (or the reverse) is done in a few minutes, since when is everybody so rushed that his should be a problem?

Martin: Let us not personalizie or over-generalize. It has been quite an illuminating discussion so far and let us continue with the discussion. Thanks.

You're welcome. I'm expressing genuine amazement here at this kind of thinking as it is not the first time I've come across it, and as such I deem it relevant in the discussion. If I am missing a point in your remark inform me please.

[srikant1987]

people are impatient by nature or just lazy... what's the big deal here?

That reminds me of a write-up that started talking about the 20-20 cricket at the IPL. We people are becoming just too impatient, and we want a little bit — or more — everything in anything. Let alone Carnatic, even Hindustani concerts these days attach a few bhajans to give more rAgs. We want to see our Bollywood stars dancing while also watching a cricket match.

And most news channels (the article pointed out) are one of the best examples to this. As the newsreader talks about water supply in Dar es Salam, we simultaneously have the rates of various currencies of the world, and of many shares sold in the country, and (in text) a statement made by Sonia Gandhi, shown on the TV.

Yes, we are becoming impatient. Now, not only do we want as many items in as little time as some artists can't even imagine in a Carnatic music concert, it's not just number of items: we want to listen to varNams, kritis — with madhyamakAlams, with svarasAhityams, with chittasvarams — AND to devarnamas from Purandaradasa, to bhajans of Mira, to thiruppugazhs, to padams and jAvaLis and patriotic songs all in one concert!

Amidst all this, how can the artist pay reasonable focus and attention to any one song, let alone to one note?

[arasi]

Srikanth,
I am following this thread, though most of it is way beyond my reach. We do need discussions like this while rasikAs who come with various levels of understanding can learn what they are capable of to the extent they can. Those who are musicians in their own right and those who have theoretical knowledge can also benefit from this--while contributing.
What you say about modern times is very true. But isn't that the very reason that we like to get away from it and listen to music which does not hurry as though it is an express delivery of goods? All the more reason to enjoy music (both in performing and listening)
in peace!
Just to hear the tambUrA being tuned and adjusted, is a lovely way to start a concert--again, both for the singer and the listener...

[vasanthakokilam]

If I am missing a point in your remark inform me please.

I was referring to your "you people" ( generalizing ) and "lazy and impatient". Atleast one of the persons who is taking an opposite point of view to yours is neither lazy or impatient, as you would have seen from other posts in the forum. No problem, Let us continue with the core topics at hand.

We seem to have several sub-threads going on here. Let me recapture them.

- Ganesh_Mourthy's original lament about declining standards of sruthi maintenance by CM musicians
- His remark linking lack of sruthi shuddham with oscillations, gamkas and ornamentations and calling for less oscilllations.
- Excessive speed as a possible cause of sruthi ashuddham
- Tambura vs Electronic sruthi box

[arasi]

[srikant1987]

@ Vasanthakokilam

Add knandago2001's and my point blaming excessive speed for shruti ashuddham as another subthread.

[ganesh_mourthy]

May be I was digressing, but is that not a valid point Vasantakokilam? why to have the same tampura sound sa pa sa when you play a raaga without Pa? I wish Shri. MSAKELLA would come out with a good explanation here who has vast experince in this field and above all very pragmatic.

[srikant1987]

Some rAgams don't allow S P S, for example kalyANavasantam, sAramati and I think nATTaikuRinji. Should we modify the drone for them also?

[uday_shankar]

ganesh_mourthy

NO, it's NOT a valid point. It's an idiotic point.

Only utter novices in Indian music will be daunted by having to tune a Pa string back to Ma and back again. If that includes Carnatic vocalists they are idiots too .

A person who cannot tune a tampura perfectly has no business singing any kind of Indian music.

Only among Carnatic rasikas will such imbecile "debates" go on.

Bottom line, as Martin says, there's nothing that can compare with the sublime sound of a real tampura.

[srikant1987]

Bottom line, as Martin says, there's nothing that can compare with the sublime sound of a real tampura.

And I am sure the "real tampura" of today has undergone several modifications in the past.

A person who cannot tune a tampura perfectly has no business singing any kind of Indian music.

You haven't heard of Heisenberge's Uncertainity Principle, I suppose?

[cacm]

Dear Srikant,

Graces are not as such a cause of shruti misalignment. It lies with speed. And lack of practice, especially at slower speeds.

In fact, I find it difficult to get perfect shruti shuddham when I play the mOhanam varNam extremely slowly, but at a "normal" speed, I find it effortless.

There is no denying that when we play or sing faster, our shruti becomes more erratic. Only no one notices. A trained ear can notice shruti flaws in faster music, but it can notice even more shruti flaws in the same music played slowly. Our hands and mouth rely on our ears for shruti alignment during practice. So practising at slow speeds can increase shruti shuddham.

Dear Srikant,
I wish to address various things you have raised in separate postings While not probably contributing to the technical aspects of the discussion Ifelt I shd. share what I encountered in 1949-'59 period on these subjects when I attended at least 4-5 concerts/week+visiting leading artists &discussing-getting enlightened- discussing the areas of Sruti-Swarasthananm & Laya Suddham(sarvalaghu mostly):
1)REG Tuning the Thambura in concerts. I have never seen the artist tuning the Thambura in the presence of the audience except fine tuning.It was done in a separate room with all the artists present during which some like Alathur Bros would discuss the Pallavi they were planning to sing-a very good move as their pallavis werte tough! Actually they were so open they accepted & implemented novel suggestions by LGJ-.GNB would indicate what he planed to emphasise & MMI would be very keenly participate in the tuning of Thambura. Actually the atmosphere was very relaxed & MMI once asked TNK about the new Fiat whether it sounded like a plane &Palani (who along with GNB) was an expert-drove his own car & would not let any one else drive it!-the subtle nuances of Studebaker which Veena Balacjhander drove & Fiat etc.
Actually in a Shanmugananda concert the Thambura went out of whack & MMI sang for over two hours just listening to Palani's Mridangam for sruti! When the voice was in PERFECT merger with Thambura-MMI &MSS appeared to manage it almost 100 percent of the time to me it was the closest to HEAVEN that I ever will get!
2)REG Swarasthanam: Prof.S.Ramanathan used to brilliantly explain & demonstrate this using Resonance with a Sonometer experiment (too much physics ?).Also he used to demonstrate the concept of "veedu" for Ragas-how the frequency,microtones,etc-was CRUCIAL using Sankarabharanam & mentioned that Malakkottai Govindaswamy Pillai of the had mastered that position of the "Jeevaswara" so perfectly that no one will play that raga for a month after a Malaikottai's violin had played it in a concert!
3) reg Slow Speed: Flute Mali in his early days was considered a "Speed Demon" but later in his career SLOWED it down so much VERY FEW Accompanists could properly follow him in terms of playing& his ideas!
These topics require serious Discussions- both technical as well as what various GREATS have attempted- but while forums like these are great its very difficult to discuss in depth subtle nuances- at least for mortals like me-. vkv

[ganesh_mourthy]

Dear Uday Shankar,

I would appreciate if you could give me an explanation for a real tampura. As for as tambura box versus tambura I think the tampura box accompanied by tambura helps in adjusting to the perfect desired pitch. SAY, FOR INSTANCE, IN THOSE DAYS WHERE THERE WAS NO SHRUTHI BOX HOW DID THE MUSICIANS MANAGE TO DEFINE DIFFERENT KATTAIS. SOME ONE TUNING TO KATTAI 1 WITHOUT A SHRUTHI BOX OR A PITCH PIPE ( PITCH PIPE IS AGAIN A RECENT ENTRY) AT 2 DIFFERENT PLACES COULD NOT HAVE BEEN THE SAME LOGICALLY.

Our music too has undergone evolution and shruthi box is a healthy entry.This definitely helps to standardize and make the KATTAI (pitch) concept really concrete and accurate. otherwise the concept of kattai woudl have been abstract always, something varying from place to place.

For less knowledged people like me or rather idiots in Uday Shankar'' language , I am really proud that we have a genius like Uday Shankar in our forum. But, unfortunately the genius does not have the tolerance to stand insipid discussion. Alas we Carnatic rasikas have to continue with our debate until we could , if at all ever rise to the standards of Uday Shankar
the authenticity of our Indian music system.

Only among Carnatic rasikas will such imbecile "debates" go on.

I think Uday shankar should rather avoid taking a peek at such imbecile discussions and unfortunately not all can be a genius like Uday Shankar and hence the discussion would go on.

I would like to mention the fact to Uday Shankar that had there not been an evolution or change in any field we humans would not have progressed beyond the stone age, let alone, the discussion here with computers which is again an achievement only through constant research and progress in the scientific field. In this regard every system requires progress. The music that we listen to now is again an outcome of a long process. It did not happen in a day.

I think my question of why Sa Pa Sa always is a valid one.

If the genius in Uday Shankar does not want to answer I think he should shun such topics rather than calling carnatic musicians names.

[cacm]

quote=ganesh_mourthy Dear Uday Shankar,

I would appreciate if you could give me an explanation for a real tampura. As for as tambura box versus tambura I think the tampura box accompanied by tambura helps in adjusting to the perfect desired pitch. SAY, FOR INSTANCE, IN THOSE DAYS WHERE THERE WAS NO SHRUTHI BOX HOW DID THE MUSICIANS MANAGE TO DEFINE DIFFERENT KATTAIS.

I can give at least one example of the PITCH PIPE BEING USED IN THE EARLY FIFTIES-do not know when it reached Madras!-Western music was known at least since the days of Dhikshithar-.
I had borrowed the tape recorderfrom Presidency College(Madras) to record one of the first solo concerts of Lalgudi-Srimathi; When I played the tape back to him he RIGHTAWAY said the pitch was off & PROVED IT by getting a PITCH PIPE; It was off by one eighth!....I asked him if he used it to tune the instrument & being a polite person he said that he was living with music so much he DID NOT NEED any ancilliary help reg pitch, swarasthanam,nadai etc. I realised then & there where i was in terms of LEVELS. In dealing with the MMI, MSS, LGJ & THE MALIS of the universe I found out they were existing in another-parallel universe?- world which I could not even dream of getting into!....vkv.

[ganesh_mourthy]

it is recent yes probably this 20th century we had pitch pipes. how did musicians adjust to kattai's before that.

[cacm]

it is recent yes probably this 20th century we had pitch pipes. how did musicians adjust to kattai's before that.

LET ME TRY TO BRIEFLY GIVE A HISTORICAL SKETCH IN TERMS OF INDIAN MUSIC; I DO NOT CLAIM THIS TO BE CORRECT BECAUSE WE HAVE BEEN NOTORIOUSLY LAX IN WRITING THINGS DOWN. HOWEVER I AM BASING WHAT I AM WRITING ON AVAILABLE "WRITTEN" STUFF:
FROM HISTORICAL TIMES FROM TIME IMMEMORIAL ETC: The Gregorian Chants(mentioned by Martin in another post) & the Vedic Chants as pipointed out by the late great scholar Prof. S.Ramanathan (who was expert in BOTH) have been shown to consist of 22 distinct notes between a note- say "c" or "sa"- & its octave which has historically contracted to 12 by the time Venkatamukin came up with his Melakartha system. As any one doing great work in this area--system of music- esp ours- has heavily depended on folk tunes etc &other factors it has made accomodations. Lets confine ourselves to South Indian Music:
Sarangadevar has given the grammar to our music-tho' he was from Kashmir himself!- . Historically the ragas are descended from folk & other sources etc. As the technology part- by this I mean pitch pipes etc tho' there are claims like yazh etc which are at least not well substantiated tho' Tamil Isai Sangham has be-is NOT clearly known it is somewhat understandable & logical that quarter tones, micro notes have to be ionvoked to satisfy historical facts etc. Consequently the system that has evolved relies on the ears of those expert musicians. Some experiments have established the validity of the 22 0r 12 note scale. Persons clearly consider any other frequency than these are not "MUSICAL".
Based on my interactions with the mss, mmi, lgj, & malis of the world & their predecesors I have to conclude they had the ability & the ears to detect the subtle frequency variations irrespective of auxiliary instruments w!ther available or not! I can say that using a well calibrated METRONOME both PMI & MALI clearly proved that their sense of time was as good as the Metronome! Atomic Clocks were not available then; But I am convinced myself that their sense of Newtonian Time was as good as an Atomic Clock in NBS!....vkv

[arunk]

kattais in our music are from western instruments like piano which came about from British/colonial influence i.e. piano => harmonium => an apt reference table i.e. kattais.

There is nothing special/eniigmatic about the specific pitch/frequency values themselves atleast in particular to application in Indian classical music. Besides owing to piano/harmonium being equi-tempered, most keys are sort of "approximations" of what they were before even in western music (i.e. natural scale).

To reiterate, there is nothing magical about setting sa to precisely 1-kattai (C) and precisely 1.5-kattai pitch (C#). One can do as well with something lower or higher. But the kattai scheme does provide convenient reference points. But again, one must not overboard and assign too much significance to the precise pitch of say 1-kattai/1.5 kattai that your sruthi box or harmonium is emitting. For one - you are assuming your tampura sruthi box, and/or harmonium is still properly "tuned" - even pianos go out of tune and need be retuned against the precise reference pitch of A and C

In our music, given about only 4-5 max performers on stage - the benefit in orchestral arrangements of every one "pre-tuned" against a constant reference point is not that significant at all. One can set the tampura to say something lower than 1-kattai, and violinst, mridangist etc. can adjust within a minute.

Oh and btw, I believe Uday is saying that switching that pa to ma should be no hinderance to using a real tampura. In other words, he is saying that theorizing that practitioners avoid a real tampura because they find switching from sa-pa-sa to sa-ma-sa to be too big a deal - is a bogus theory.

It is different from your question as to whether people don't strum "pa" or switch to sa-ma-sa during hindolam etc. ragas, and if not why.

Arun

[Nick H]

it is recent yes probably this 20th century we had pitch pipes. how did musicians adjust to kattai's before that.

From my otherwise not-very-relevant post:

However, my small morsing experience was that, with a manual knob-tuned sruti box, the artist might have told me "this is 5" --- it would be somewhere around F to A! As the more high-tech boxes took over, if the artist said "5", I could confidently tune my morsing to "G" and it would be correct.

The whole point is that there is no absolute. The artist may say, this is 1, or this is 3, or this is 5 --- whether it can be related to the equivalents on a pitch-pipe of Western-scale tones, or a modern electronic meter just doesn't matter. That is the artist's chosen shruthi; that is what everybody else will tune and play to.

I asked him if he used it to tune the instrument & being a polite person he said that he was living with music so much he DID NOT NEED any ancilliary help reg pitch, swarasthanam,nadai etc. I realised then & there where i was in terms of LEVELS. In dealing with the MMI, MSS, LGJ & THE MALIS of the universe I found out they were existing in another-parallel universe?- world which I could not even dream of getting into!....vkv.

A different plane, indeed!

kattais in our music are from western instruments like piano which came about from British/colonial influence i.e. piano => harmonium => an apt reference table i.e. kattais. ...

Ahh... Arun has said it all. Our system would continue to function with no difference and little inconvenience without 'kattai'

[martin]

In respect to the basic tambura tuning pssS or mssS: In my own experience I have come across musicians who, shall we say, have learned not to expect to much from tamburas or their players and prefer therefore to rely on electronics. From the point of anxiety caused in the soloist by bad tamburaplayers I can understand that totally. As a devoted tamburawalla I know my first job is to convince the soloists that all is going to be just fine, if not better.
Switching from pa to ma or vice versa, during a concert, seems indeed to be a point that again can create some anxiety.
So I demonstrate it previously. The following kind testimony I received from a well known Rasika does clearly mention the switching, it is thus emphasised, implying the dearth of what should be a basic capacity done in no great amount of time.
>>>> I am just back from a concert tour of the Netherlands and I had the pleasure of having Martin Spaink do the tambura for me. I can confidently say that Martin is one of the few sensitive tambura artists I have encountered in all these years. It came as a surprise to me that a 'foreigner' should display such talent and fervour towards this ancient Indian instrument. Not only does Martin play it beautifully, wonder of wonders, he can tune it superbly!! This is a talent fast disappearing among tambura artists.

During the concert, Martin would expertly tune the tambura to 'madhyamam' where I needed it and switch back as easily into 'pancham'!

I am training my students to be sensitive to the tambura-- its tuning and play. I also do not sing without a tambura in any of my concerts in Chennai. Availability of good, trained(?) tambura artists is almost impossible in many places. So, thats why the electronic versions are getting better and doing well. I am sure if each teacher can train her/his students the pleasure of handling a real tambura, we will have many good artists. Students of music colleges and other private institiutions could be employed to play the tambura in concerts-- in addition to some income, it would be valuable inputs for aspiring musicians/ musicologists.

I hope this correspondence will trigger a revival of the tambura!!

Vijayalakshmy Subramaniam <<<<

Obviously, retuning may also involve shifting the jivari threads and tuning beeds of the jora and karaj (ssS) to create the proper harmonics alignment that will suit the chosen raga, which is why it takes anywhere between 10 seconds and two minutes. I also mention that I never had the impression that the audience is bored by tuning going on, as far as they can hear it, to the contrary. Sitting in the audience, one can appreciate the immanent atmosphere that is created by the tuning of tamburas, mridangam, violin and how slowly slowly everything comes together in a shared resonance. It really creates anticipation and involvement I would say. So coming from pssS and going to mssS not only the tambura but every listerner makes the shift as well and that is also important to set the stage for the chosen raga. So, again, I see no reason at all to hurry.
Lastly, simply omitting the first string completely takes away the dynamic element in the tambura sound which is the offspring of ssS with another svara to enrich the sound and bring a certain life in to it. In tuning one can use 1 ma, 1 pa, 2 dha's, 2 ni's to suit some rare ragas. So as far as tambura is concerned, the sound wants Duality, not Monism.

[Nick H]

If the curtain opens at 6.30, tuning can be, and is by many, done at 6.25.

I don't notice this to be a big deal in Carnatic music. However, several times in HM, I have been given the impression that the artists must have left the instruments on the stage and then taken time off until curtain-opening. I do resent those long tune-up sessions where the artists appear to be tuning from scratch. We pay for music; if we want tuning we can visit a repair workshop!

Of course, we must bear with the artists for fine tuning, and the effects of changing temperatures in the hall, etc, or interruptions due to a broken string. I've been amazed to see how quickly a violinist can change and tune a string, mid-concert, with the combined pressure of fellow artists and audience upon them. That is real professionalism! I guess they would say it is just part of the job.

[uday_shankar]

Ganesh_Mourthy,

You shouldn't take things personally. I'm stupid most of the time, it's not a pejorative word. I should think we are all interested in getting to know the Truth rather than impress one another.

So here are the pearls of wisdom you requested :

1. In Carnatic music, nay in Indian music, the exact internationally calibrated reference pitch DOES NOT MATTER A JOT .

2. Therefore a vocalist can take any arbitrary pitch (in a certain range, since mridangists, violinists and other artistes are involved) and tune a tampura to it and start singing. In fact apparently this is exactly what used to happen with MMI in his later days. He would sing Sa and Shri Vembu Iyer would tune the tampura to that Sa and accompanists would tune their instruments to that and the great bliss of shruti-aligned music would begin. That Sa may have been 1.5 kattai +/- something but who cares. It is irrelevant.

3. In fact, I would go so far as to say that any good vocalist should choose the shruti on the day of the concert by testing the condition and range of his/her voice and not try to "fix" it by a pitch pipe.

4. During the concert, the tuning of any of the instruments as well a the voice of the vocalist can drift gradually by a few Hz and nobody will be any the worse as long as all the instruments and voice are "in tune" at any given time.

5. Mridangams, violins, vinas, chitravinas can be adjusted to slightly drifting pitches. Violins have a greater flexibility, vinas and chitravinas less so and mridangam very limited (perhaps only a semitone totally).

6. Flutes cannot be adjusted at all and ghatams slightly by means of sticking some ravai.

7. Therefore, if there's a drift due to A/C, etc.. everything should be adjusted to the immovably pitched instruments - flute, ghatam, etc..

8. Ideally, when singing ragas like Hindolam, the tampura strummer should refrain from strumming the Pa string. You are right that the Pa should not be heard during panchama varjya ragas. I am not partial to the idea of retuning to Ma for aesthetic reasons and not because it is "difficult" .

9. Of late I've been experimenting playing music with Shajda-only shruti, because having a dominant Panchama drags your R2 to 9/8 while there's a slightly lower R2 at 10/9 which needs be explored. Of course, examining swarasthanas at this level of detail is just a personal hobby of mine and is not at all necessary for producing good music.

10. Sill, there's a case to be made for Sa-Only shruti. It strikes me as purer.

11. Tampura conditioning and tuning is a separate art that should be taught to every vocalist. I was at the recent "Carnatic Idol" and was aghast by the standard of tuning. Not a single student, including the "winner" was able to tune the tampura properly.

12. In Hindustani music pedagogy, the students learn to tune the tampura as well as learn to play the tabla. This results in a couple of good things that are absent in Carnatic music a) they generally sing to shruti more consistently b) they can improvise without slapping their thighs like they were swatting mosquitoes.

[ganesh_mourthy]

The problem lies in our system where some of the gurus are conformist( this is how I was taught and I would teach attitude). I knew a teacher who would grab the instrument from the students and tune it and give it back. This happened for years and the students never could tune their instruments properly. who to be blamed here , shortcoming of the teacher or the student. When I humbly suggested him that it would be prudent to let the students do it under his guidance he threw a tantrums. This is how my guru did , dont you see that I am accomplished. phew!!!!! , what am I to say?????????? This is a common attitude in our music system that I have observed.

[vasanthakokilam]

Your come back line should have been 'If this is how your guru did it, how did you learn to tune?"

[srkris]

Uday, kindly do not use uncivil language (words like idiots, imbeciles etc). Thanks.

[uday_shankar]

srkris,

Duly noted . That was rather idiotic of me...ooops...there I go again !

More "perils" of wisdom:

1. In general, there are no immutable laws stated by motherhood statements like “old is goldâ€

[ganesh_mourthy]

Vasantakokilam , so you were stalking me. fine now that I know you follow you are not a stalker anymore. So how did vasantakokilam learn to tune? you did your violin or your guru did it for you all the time?

[prashant]

I have severe carpal tunnel syndrome in my right wrist. It's impossible for me to play the tambura for more than 10-15 minutes without experiencing unbelievable pain in my wrist - even keeping tALa can be painful sometimes. Despite this, when I tune my tambura and play it keeping it close to my ear and sing a few krithis, the feeling of peace and tranquility is so wonderful sometimes I just forget the pain for a while. All the technical details aside, it is just such a wonderful sound. And I agree with Martin and Uday, the physical act of tuning the tambura and coaxing each string into tune is great practice for maintaining shruti and getting oneself into the right frame of mind to sing. Funnily, as I got more and more into singing with a tambura, the sound of an electronic tambura started sounding jarring to me. I just cannot abide the sound of it now.

Now I just use a tambura CD [while I work on trying to get my wife to learn to play the tambura so she can play while I sing ] which I guess, is the next best thing. Can anyone share pointers on which are the best tambura CDs available? I used a CD made by Sri Malladi Suri Babu which is nice, but the lower shadja is a bit too muffled/not bright enough for my taste. Are there CDs of actual tamburas being played for 45-50 minutes as opposed to short loops?

[martin]

Prashantji, nice to hear drom a sensible person who cares enough to suffer discomfort.
So what is your shruti or kattai (I'm picking up some new terms here) at which you take your Shadja?
I know there are many looped tanpura recordings, it even happens a lot in the hottest studios, 5 minutes of tambura playing, thank you, you can go now. I made some recordings with various instruments, various pitches. I always sit and play 45 min - 1 hr. no pasting, looping. The real thing in real time.
Below is more info, see also the articles on the Omenad pages. Best of luck to you, martin

For more information follow the link:
http://www.martinspaink.mimemo.net/
For accessing an article about fine-tuning of tanpura's, follow:
http://www.medieval.org/music/world/martin_est.html
or at Ashish Sankrityayan's Dhrupad-website:
http://www.dhrupad.info/articles.htm
debate on tanpura: http://omenad.net/articles/tanpura_debate.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tambura#India

[martin]

To Udayji:
in an earlier post I mentioned that tambura thrives on duality, ssS together with one other svara to fertilize it. Of course ssS or sssS is very pure, too much so maybe, it is not very dynamic. Would you care to comment further on this? At least I never wanted to use only Shadja in tuning. regards, martin

[vasanthakokilam]

Vasantakokilam , so you were stalking me. fine now that I know you follow you are not a stalker anymore. So how did vasantakokilam learn to tune? you did your violin or your guru did it for you all the time?

:rolleyes: I thought I was augmenting your point of view with that wisecrack. Sorry, you misunderstood. Anyway, forget it. Not important

[ganesh_mourthy]

No not at all , Vasanthakokilam. I never misunderstood. I told that in jest.
by the by I guess you play violin too. I jogged up my memory, and I remeber reading once somewhere that you felt like jumping over the violin when you could not get some phrases of MSG even after a marathon 8 hour practice. hope you had written it somewhere.??????
The reason why I asked how you managed to tune the violin in your intial days.


I know a musician cum violin teacher who encourages the students to tune the violin themselves right from day 1. He would first tune the violin and ask the student to tune his violin to his Sa first. the students may err initially but he keeps nodding his head until the student picks the right shruthi. He may spend even 10 to 15 min for this .when later after a few months I met him his students could tune the violin in a jiffy.

[vasanthakokilam]

ganesh_mourthy, that can not be me since I do not play the violin.

[uday_shankar]

Martinji, nee...Meneer Martin
Goode middag. Hoe gaat het ?! Ik heb geen probleme met panchama. Met panchama is mooi en zonder panchama is ook moi. Ok, mijn Engels is beter, ja ?!

To simply listen to, I really like a well-tuned tampura with panchama. To listen to the different harmonics and the mysterious sounds that turn up in the different phases - pluck, sustain and decay - is eternal bliss. I even used like to stick my ear right against the wood of the stem or the gourd and "listen into" the tampura for hours .

There are two questions here:

1) Is there no "duality" in ssS ?
2) What is it that I seek by eliminating P ?

I am not sure if you're familiar with carnatic terminology as far as the different notes, R1, R2, G1, G2, etc... So here's a quick primer...

Let us assume that the Sa is C for convenience. Then the following relations hold:

C = S
C# = R1
D = R2, G1
D# = R3, G2
E = G3
F = M1
F# = M2
G = P
G# = D1
A = D2, N1
A# = D3, N2
B = N3

If you're grounded in Hindustani, then calling D a gandhara or A a nishada will make no sense . And rightfully so. So ignore the nonsense and let's get to the discussion...

Answer to question 1:
I think there's duality in ssS also, but it is far more subtle. Simply adding the jiva to a single string supplies duality. A single vina or chitravina string, without the jiva as it usually is, has less pronounced harmonics and may seem static. On the other hand, on a single S string of the tampura, with a proper jiva, we can hear G3 (5/4), P (3/2) and the octave S. There are also other less pronounced subtle and mysterious sounds. Add the lower S sting and the effect is quite "dynamic".

Answer to question 2:
If you're grounded in Hindustani music, my answer here may not be very relevant. Anyways, as you know, the tampura doesn't merely provide a reference for S and P but many other notes. On the P-string we can hear R2 (9/8) and N3 (15/8) quite clearly. This means that we are subtly led to use those exact "locations" for those notes. However, in the analysis of Indian music, other choices for the same notes exist which differ by small amounts from what we hear in the tampura. Specifically, in the case of R2, there's a value of 10/9 which is often supported by theory. I have been trying to develop a "sense" for this note and it is impossible to do it if we have panchama in the shruti because the closely related ratio 9/8 sounds too prominent. Another example is N3. As you know N3 (15/8) sounds very prominent (but not as prominent as R2) in the panchama string. It is nice to explore higher values for N3 than what we hear from the tampura. Especially for a raga like Kalyani for example. In this case, the N3 almost hugs the Sa.

Disclaimer:
Now, none of this is important to prodice good music . Only a well-tuned tampura is.

[martin]

Goedenavond meneer Uday, where did you pick up on an obscure language like Dutch?
thanks for your reply. Indeed I'm not familiar with terms as you stated them and it seems strange that R2 and G1 should both fall on D but never mind, let's get on with it.
I choose my words carefully when speaking of monism and duality, and that I feel that tambura needs duality. Of course, if you tune carefully to align the harmonics up to a high level your going to get a lot of resonances going with only Sa. Still, you're working with one fundamental only, which is my 'monism'. Adding another fundamental gets the harmonic procreation going and evokes swayambhu svaras that would not appear from only the Sa fundamental.
Nevertheless, I understand what you are referring to. To quote from memory the gist of a pertinent remark (letter to Sruti-box, see tanpura debate at Omenad): it is said that if the tanpura is perfectly tuned it will give you swayambhu shuddh gandar. Yet if the artist wants to sing a komal ga raga it is a problem. I answered that it is possible to Meta-tune the tanpura so as to focus mostly on Sa and Pa harmonics, trying to favour harmonic 12 (Pa) over 10 (shuddh Ga) from the Karaj string. You probably refer to such phenomena as in my example. My former teacher knew many ways in which the tanpura can be made to sing according to a chosen raga but he did not speak much about it in theoretic terms, poetic was more like it, the more as it is ultimately done on ' feeling ' based on a well-honed perception of svara and jivasvara. Grasping for terms, i came up with Meta-tuning as it is all about aligning harmonics not fundamentals that these specific resonances can be evoked.
Your way of investigating Sa only is new to me and I have never come across it in the sense that I have ever been asked to tune so or have it heared done by others. I know that for nagaswaram or shenai other insturments are blown to Sa only but that's a different area. I can only say that I'd be interested to hear it.

It gives me sometimes a strange feeling that concerning tanpuras I should turn out more Catholic than the Pope and that out of a personal fervour (call it love) I should one day find myself defending its proper use against musicians who have become indifferent to it. I was initially drawn in to ICM beacause of its purity of resonance and intonation, the sheer joy of listening. There's a kind of natural magic in there and in my branch of Catholicism, purity of living, real sound as sursadhana is our Catechism and Baptism and should evoke the Holy Spirit, and nothing short of that will do.
Seriously, do you also happen to master the art of jivari, to shape the bridge and thus the jivasvara, which is just a curious side-question, since you are devoted to tambura. regards, martin

[blackadder]

To Uday (in jest):

In your penultimate post, you mention tempura more than once. Rainy day in Madras prompted thoughts of the Japanese bajji?

In general:

Shruthi is indeed imperative but do we need it with scientific precision? I am not implying that it is OK to be minutely off shruthi but, as several posters including arunk and Uday have said, it is fine if 1.5 kattai is +/- something - as long as that it stays that way.

The posts about technological advancements and electronics in Indian music perhaps need to be a separate thread.

[uday_shankar]

Meneer Martin

Your meta-tuning concept wherein you can actually try to increase the effect of certain harmonics over others adds a new dimension to my tampura tuning thinking. Thanks. Broadly speaking I understand why it may be possible to do what you say. The key to the puzzle is the jiva (or jivari as you say?). Without that, the intensity of the harmonic components is pretty much fixed. As in a chitravina string.

What I am saying goes beyond "harmonic" thinking. I am actually trying to see if there's a special melodic identity that comes without the prejudice of a profusion of harmonics or other influences like the equally tempered chromatic scale. Hindustani music gets overwhelmed by either the tampura harmonics or the chromatic notes of the harmonium. In either case, I think a certain dimension of Indian music may be lost (or maybe not, that's what I'm trying to find out).

Traditionally many great composers of Carnatic music like Tyagaraja probably used a single-string tampura. You can still see it sometimes with wandering mendicants. If you listen to Carnatic music, you'll notice that there are far greater number of "anuswaras", i.e., notes that you may think are separated by a semitone are actually much closer. In Hindustani, the concept of anuswara is very limited. So even in overlapping ragas, such as bhairav-mayamalvagaula (C, C#, E,F, G,G#,B, C') you'll find that your so-called C# of Carnatic music hugs the C whereas you can get away with singing a true C# in Hindustani. I think this evolution of a "softer" approach owes its origin to the absence of multi-stringed tampuras, keyboards, Persian influence, etc...

None of this takes away from my ecstacy in listening to the four-stringed tampura, of course.

Met vriendelijk groeten

- Uday

blackadder,
It's not spicy Japanese food. It must be the long-repressed inner Malayalee trying to break out .

[uday_shankar]

Martin I forgot to add ... long ago I was doing biomedical "research" at the Academisch Ziekenhuis - Dijkzigt in Rotterdam. The real research, of course, was on the different flavors of Trappiste beers available in the area.

I have not mastered the art of jivari. I am an utter novice here. As for the bridge, I have tried to use heuristic techniques and my own intuition (possibly flawed) to sand and shape tampura bridges for optimal performance. I failed. I really think such crafts should be learned from master craftsmen before they disappear, if they havent already. I have sanded my own chitravina's bridge with a slight improvement in its acoustics (I think).

[prashant]

The real research, of course, was on the different flavors of Trappiste beers available in the area.

I can attest that this is a pretty fascinating topic for research

[Nick H]

(

It's not spicy Japanese food

Wasabi, that green paste, makes chilly look mild!

)

Arising out of my couple of posts on this thread is a conclusion that I never actually reached whilst typing them ---

The digital, electronic world is (maybe has already) imposing the Western scale, at least so far as the tuning of the tonic is concerned, on us.

[martin]

Shri Udayji, thanks for your personal disclosures. If you're ever in Amsterdam let me know and I'll join you on a research night.

[martin]

I have not mastered the art of jivari. I am an utter novice here. As for the bridge, I have tried to use heuristic techniques and my own intuition (possibly flawed) to sand and shape tampura bridges for optimal performance. I failed. I really think such crafts should be learned from master craftsmen before they disappear, if they havent already. I have sanded my own chitravina's bridge with a slight improvement in its acoustics (I think).

I assume there are legions of tanpuras of lying around picking up dust as the jivari has gone, attempts at tuning fail. Once just this situation was beneficial to me, as I was able to buy one of those neglected instruments which actually was a venerable old beauty. I did not know much about jivari and all that initially but had a strong urge to go and find out. Only after having gone over many student's instruments with Sayeeduddin Dagarsaheb (firstly our own) I would say I got consistent results. Since then I have serviced many instruments and they still keep coming. So as better to serve Sarasvati, whenever necessary, I offer as many helpful suggestions as to good tuning and playing habits etc. to the owner of the instrument. But of course the Church of Jivari needs many more committed priests who can transubstantialize wood, bone and strings into Nada Bramha. Being able to share information in fora like here is one thing but one does not learn to do a proper jivari job this way.
Also some times as a tanpura artist hired by the theater for musicians previously unknown to me I found myself in the undesireable situation where I as the tanpurawalla was more critical or indeed perceptive to tuning than the main artist.
This can only happen if they have gone through a significant part of their training without having daily hygiene with tanpura. If I can hear the rahter wide margin four 'in tune-ness' in the way that such a musician sings other people should also be able to hear it, which is why we're all posting on this here thread.
So my position is that by reeling in the Trojan Horse of electronic convenience instead of doing sursadhana, yes indeed, standards for intonation are getting decidely floaty. It also seems related to a supposed preference for pyrotechnics. Here I would like to quote Francois Couperin, harpsichordplayer to Louis XIV: I prefer the music that touches me above that wich amazes me.
good sursadhana to all.

[srikant1987]

So even in overlapping ragas, such as bhairav-mayamalvagaula (C, C#, E,F, G,G#,B, C') you'll find that your so-called C# of Carnatic music hugs the C whereas you can get away with singing a true C# in Hindustani.

Many Carnatic musicians get away from the same thing by oscillating their ris between something around C and something around C# — or so many people have sited in the beginning of this thread.

[martin]

PS when we use western notation and note-names like C D E F etc. in relation to ICM please have a care how you notate it. A scale was given using chromaticism which is not correct. Indian scales are basiccaly diatonic so different note names should be used, so not C C# E F G G# B C but C Db E F G Ab B C but I would prefer to use sargam notation anytime.

[arunk]

martin - can you pl. elaborate more as to why Db is better than C# for suddha-rishabham (komal rishab)? Is it to assign a different "base key" i.e. D as in Db as opposed C as in C#? I always wondered whether there is any significance in using Db vs. C# in western music. When should C# be used, and when should Db be used (in western)?

Btw, in carnatic, you can have all the following combinations:
1. C C#/Db D ( S R1 G1 - many ragas - the most prominent being varALi).
2. C C#/Db D#/Eb ( S R1 G2 )
3. C C#/Db E ( S R1 G3)
4. C D#/Eb E ( S R3 G3 - again many ragas, the most prominent being nATa)

In Hindustani, I think #1and #4 are probably not allowed (?). With just 2, 3, I am guessing 2 would be more properly stated as C Db Eb and 4 as C Db E, thus achieving what I am presuming you meant. But it looks like this is not always possible with carnatic. But I guess except for #1, all can be stated as you indicated with 4 stated as C D# Eb

Arun

[msakella]

"Daily tuning of tambura is a blessing for the musician as, over time, it stimulates our capacity for sursadhana, which is, according to standards that I will at least try to adhere to and keep up, just what the music demands........ I positively believe that my tanpura - or any instrument given in my care - can easily win the appreciation over any digithingy, from especially the most demanding musicians. Not the sloppy ones, they will definitely prefer the box"

Of course, I shall stick to my statements and hope I can justify them more in a suitable demonstration of the things.
Daily tuning of Tambura makes a person efficient in making ‘sursadhana’ only in tuning it but not making ‘asursadhana’ in singing music with proper alignment with it.

For what purpose the Tambura is being used? Is it truly serving the purpose and how?
As all know the conventional Tambura has only four strings, one Mandra-shadja, two Madhya-shadjas and one Mandra-panchama which means it has only two notes, Shadja and Panchama. How much one can eat his meal with only two items satisfactorily? Can anybody call it a full-meal? What is needed to make it a full-delicious-meal? We must have as many items of different tastes as we can to make it a full-delicious-meal.

Having become fed up with the conventional Tambura, nearly 20 years back, I, with my limited knowledge of elctronics, have myself designed my Electronic-automatic-tambura to serve this purpose only with Tamburas of 3 octaves, Mandra, Madhya and Tara-sthayis which can be operated independently or collectively either with Panchama or with Shuddha-madhyama or devoid of both in Tambura-section and along with 2-shadjas, 2-panchamas or 2-shuddha-madhyamas, 2-antara-gandharas or 2-sadharana-gandharas, 2-shuddha-dhaivatas or 2-chatushruti-dhaivatas in bag-piper section. While singing Ragas like Shankarabharana, Mohana, Kalyani, Vachaspati I shall tune the Mandra-tambura as usual like in our conventional Tambura, Madhya-tambura with tara-shadja avoiding Madhya-panchama and the Tara-tambura like in our conventional-tambura and in the bag-piper I shall operate either or both of 2-shadjas of Madhya and Tara-sthayis, 2-antara-gandharas of Madhya and Tara-sthayis, 2-chatushruti-dhaivatas basing upon my ‘sangathis’ I sing. This kind of operation of notes embellishes my music adding more items to my ‘delicious-meal’. While singing Hamsanandi I, of course, shall cut-off the Panchama and operate with 2-antara-gandharas and 2-chatushruti-dhaivatas, for Udayaravichandrika I shall cut-off the Mandra-Tambura to avoid dis-cordant affect of Sadharana-gandhara with Mandra-panchama and with the upper-partial, Mandra-antara-gandhara and operate the bag-piper with 2-sadharana-gandharas and 2-panchamas of Madhya & Tara-sthayis, for Ranjani I shall cut-off Mandra-sthayi-tambura and Panchama and manage with Madhya & Tara-shadjas in Tamburas and Shadjas and Chatushruti-dhaivata in bag-piper section, for Shubhali (panchama-varja of Shubhapantuvarali) and Bhavani (panchama-varja of Bhavapriya I shall cut-off Mandra-tambura and operate with Sadharana-gandhara and Shuddha-dhaivatas of Madhya & tara-sthayis which could only be explained in a suitable demonstration. By tuning my instrument according to my need and taste I shall always swim in the ocean of concordant Shruti unlike with the conventional Tambura. This kind of thing could be adjudged only by listening to it in a suitable demonstration but not in terms of words. amsharma..

[martin]

In reply to the last post by Arun: It is in the difference between diatonic and chromatic. Most traditional music is diatonic For instance, on the sarangi, there are 4 choirs of sympathetic strings. Of the lower choirs, one row of 9 is tuned diatonically, one other of 15 is chromatically.
The 9 are s r g m p d n s' r' or c d e f g a b c' d'. The row of 15 is S kR sR kG sG sM tM P kD sD kN sN S' kR' sR' in which i use the HM prefixes komal for flat, shuddh for pure or unaltered and tivra for augmented for madhyam. In writing this properly in western notation, from C as Sa, C# is already out, as no raised sa is recognized. Seconds are therefore always D beit flat or pure, thirds always E. A minor third from C is therefore always Eb and not D# wich is officially an augmented second. By the same rule a diminished fifth does not exist in ICM, but is properly an augmented fourth C- F#. A flat sixth is C- Ab and not C-G# which is an augmented fifth. Even if on ordinary 12 tone keyboards G# and Ab are found on the same key, distinction has to be made.
Even in the west this is not always used properly. Publications in which Indian music is transcribed to staff-notation this is done also diatonically, assigning 7 different note names for the 7 svaras, no matter what position they may have in any particular raga. Chromatism can be said to occur in a raga that uses more than 7 svaras, for instance mainly shuddh ni and occasionally komal ni in a particular phrase. To indicate special intonations of certain altered svaras, the signs for flat or sharp also have variation in shape and the value they express as half- flats and half sharps, but that is mostly for academics. So a a very low rishab, ati-ati komal would be still be D with any number of particular flats assigned to it.
In practice, being able to name and identify 12 svaras suffices as long as in our living memory the precise relative positions that are raga-characteristic are retained, as the collective cultural heritage.
So as far as theory goes, that means thinking, writing, speaking or forumizing about music, I am OK with using the model of having twelve notes. In muscial practice, in the West as far as played in Equal Temperament, this has also become actual practice. You only have these specific twelve notes, and that is really all there is. What is more, apart from the fact that for instance the thirds are terribly out of pure, is that all the intervals are equalized so that, short of having absolute pitch, you can not realy regognize what ' key' is being played in, you can hear it is in minor or major scale because the smallest element, the semitone, are all equal (a semitone given the value of 100 cents, the octave is 1200, all other notes are factors of hundred. So in recent Western music, in ET, there is no equivalent of the purity of shuddh ga unless you go back in time before ET was everywhere. So it follows that if we want to do a Historically Informed Performance of any music of say, before 1800, we can not readily assume to use pianos in ET or anything to do with ET. Still, most monks who sing the ancient Gregorian chant in our age do so with a piano in their minds. This is of course bad practice. But, as it has been tradition for many generations to have singing lessons at the piano, that's what you can expect to end up with after so many generations. Luckily, in the 2nd half of last century much has changed in the performance of 'early music' and it has become accepted and cherished to use a variety of historical tunings other than the ubiquitous ET. Even the singers are coming along - but within these specialized groups who focus on HIP, outside, in mainstream classical music ET rules.

If you're still with me I think you will agree that having a piano in your head is not good for Western Early Music and certainly not for Classical Indian Music! Still one can observe many signs of a shift in musical culture in Indian music as far as the minute precision in intonation is concerned. Even in the period of my professional engagement to one institution I have seen or rather heard the change. which seems best described as a change in wich matters of form and dexteral virtuosity are seen as the way to stardom and not so much form and content. So why would in general instrumentalists perform better at the shruti department? My bet is that it should be so because they are the only ones who are in the daily business of tuning their instruments, even if they perform and practice with electronic boxes.

[martin]

Daily tuning of Tambura makes a person efficient in making ‘sursadhana’ only in tuning it but not making ‘asursadhana’ in singing music with proper alignment with it.

While I agree that all people with sensitive hearing are not necessarily all good singers, nevertheless if they were singers, it would be beneficial if they can take up the tambura and learn to tune it properly and then use this as the basis of shruti-development and voice-culture. I have always been playing and tuning instruments and singing at the same time, also without external shruti-reference. Then, since I also repair instruments, I learned to do jivari-work and listen to the inner aspects of sound. When faced with synthesized sounds, there's not much to listen to or be inspired by, at least not for me. It is very smart and clever but it is not real music and I personally see it as a profanation of something sacred when used in music that is essentially based on ancient Yogic practice and the philosophy of Nada Bramha, which can not reside in synthetic sound.
Also I will state that from all the artists that I have played tanpura for those that are comfortable in tuning their own tanpuras that unvariable have better sense of intonation than others who seem groomed under the drone of a box and could not properly tune a tanpura if their life depended on it. If that is not in a sense a cultural inflation, then where will you draw te line? I already have. Right here. No synths, no shortcuts.

The one thing that is clear from your post is that you are an expert of shruti manipulation according to what raga is to be sung or played, which is naturally something I will generally adhere to wholeheartedly, out of principle. In some instances I come upon some reservation, as when the music is played on a very smart keyboard with precisely programmed pitches or in any otherway that the very sound itself is synthetic and not played on real instruments.

We all can imagine at least what goes on between me and the instrument when I tune my tambura, but I can not imagine exactly how you go about it when you speak of tuning. Is it done once, memorized and preselected under a button's touch?

[martin]

>> 1 Your meta-tuning concept wherein you can actually try to increase the effect of certain harmonics over others adds a new dimension to my tampura tuning thinking. Thanks. Broadly speaking I understand why it may be possible to do what you say. The key to the puzzle is the jiva (or jivari as you say?). Without that, the intensity of the harmonic components is pretty much fixed. As in a chitravina string.

>> 2 What I am saying goes beyond "harmonic" thinking. I am actually trying to see if there's a special melodic identity that comes without the prejudice of a profusion of harmonics or other influences like the equally tempered chromatic scale. Hindustani music gets overwhelmed by either the tampura harmonics or the chromatic notes of the harmonium. In either case, I think a certain dimension of Indian music may be lost (or maybe not, that's what I'm trying to find out).

1 as in any other string from any other instrument without opening your toolbox. Tambura is unique in having timbre-control through jivari-threads, only the voice has more flexibility or malleability in this respect.
2 thinking upon your statements, I was reminded of my own experiments with Gregorian chant. Some form of chant will go well with a tambura in some way. Other types of chant will not work as they are not based on a protracted drone on the tonic note but evolve around various hinging-points so that they would actually require a changing pattern of bourdon-tones. Yet other chants exist that are not easily pinpointed. These are best sung without any added harmonies, so no tanpura. I forget the term but there is a declamatory section in CM that is sung without tanpura.
hartelijke groeten, martinuddin