Cyber Laya Vidyalaya

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 19 Mar 2006, 02:35

Yes, indeed. After our laya guru teaches more stuff, I am planning on spending some more time there. There are all sorts of complicated thala patterns in the 476 songs here. When I saw all that complicated structures, I retreated quickly, vowing to go back after learning the basics..

( Thiruppugazh word structure itself lends to captivating rhythmic patterns. That is probably a whole different thread. )

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 19 Mar 2006, 04:49

I was planning to start a separate thread on Thiruppugazh after getting the Laya concepts under the belt! Also the Tamil is just fascinating! I wish Sub and Arasi had joined us here! I had given them very clear directions

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 20 Mar 2006, 09:59

As I understand (subject to correction by the prof) 'jAthi' is a term applicable to Laghu only. Whereas 'gathi' or nadai affects all angas. These two are independant of each other! Nadai can change during the kriti but jAthi cannot (the kriti is born with it!). The other thing is 'kaalam' which can change during the kriti. Kaalm is linked to gathi in the sense that it is the duration given to each note of the gathi. If the duration is doubled we get a slowing down (viLambam) but the gathi does not change. Similarly if the duration is halved we get a quickening (duritam) but again gathi is unaffected. This is not always true since the prof may explain later that a catustra gathi (4 notes aksharam) can be thisramised (3 notes to aksharam), but since tha kaalam is not changed (it is generally said that the 'kaalpramaaNam' has to be maintained), each note will now get 1and 1/3 (4/3) duration. It would now appear that there is a slowing down but note that kaalam has not really changed.

Am I Ok Prof?

Let me tag along here as we wait for Prof's evaluation. I am not adding anything new but putting in my understanding which I think is consistent with what CML wrote.

1 mathrai per aksharam - very slow kalam chathusra gathi
2 mathrai per aksharam - slow kalam chathusra gathi
3 mathrai per aksharam - normal kalam thisra gathi
4 mathrai per aksharam - normal kalam chathusra gathi
5 mathrai per aksharam - normal kalam kanda gathi
6 mathrai per aksharam - double kalam thisra gathi
7 mathrai per aksharam - normal kalam misra gathi
8 mathrai per aksharam - double kalam chathusra gathi
9 mathrai per aksharam - normal kalam sankeerna gathi
10 mathrai per aksharam - double kalam kanda gathi
11 mathrai per aksharam - ???
12 mathrai per aksharam - triple kalam thisra gathi
13 mathrai per aksharam - ???
14 mathrai per aksharam - double kalam misra gathi
15 mathrai per aksharam - ???
16 mathrai per aksharam - triple kalam chathusra gathi
17 mathrai per aksharam - ???
18 mathrai per aksharam - double kalam sankeerna gathi
19 mathrai per aksharam - ???
20 mathrai per aksharam - triple kalam kanda gathi

and so on.... right? The higher numbers ( beyond 9? ) may just be theoretical and not used in practice.

Now fit in Kalai into this please?

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 20 Mar 2006, 10:04

vk

Are you questioning my statement or asking the prof's opinion?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 20 Mar 2006, 10:21

vk

Are you questioning my statement or asking the prof's opinion?

I goofed up and hit submit before entering my content...I have since edited my post and appended my content to the quote of your posting.

param · Post by **param** » 21 Mar 2006, 15:11

Guruji Raghavan has composed many thiruppugazh songs in different nadais.

To the best of our knowledge it is Arunagirinathar who has composed the Tkirupugazhal and not Guruji Raghavan.

My father personally knows Guruji Raghavan and he and I have accompanied Guruji on a number of occasions.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 21 Mar 2006, 15:19

To the best of our knowledge it is Arunagirinathar who has composed the Tkirupugazhal and not Guruji Raghavan.

LOL at my own gotcha... you have a good eye Param. Yes, of course true. I meant to write 'Guruji Raghavan has tuned many thiruppugazh songs in different nadais'.

param · Post by **param** » 21 Mar 2006, 15:32

Let me tag along here as we wait for Prof's evaluation. I am not adding anything new but putting in my understanding which I think is consistent with what CML wrote.
1 mathrai per aksharam - very slow kalam chathusra gathi
2 mathrai per aksharam - slow kalam chathusra gathi
3 mathrai per aksharam - normal kalam thisra gathi
4 mathrai per aksharam - normal kalam chathusra gathi
5 mathrai per aksharam - normal kalam kanda gathi
6 mathrai per aksharam - double kalam thisra gathi
7 mathrai per aksharam - normal kalam misra gathi
8 mathrai per aksharam - double kalam chathusra gathi
9 mathrai per aksharam - normal kalam sankeerna gathi
10 mathrai per aksharam - double kalam kanda gathi
11 mathrai per aksharam - ???
12 mathrai per aksharam - triple kalam thisra gathi
13 mathrai per aksharam - ???
14 mathrai per aksharam - double kalam misra gathi
15 mathrai per aksharam - ???
16 mathrai per aksharam - triple kalam chathusra gathi
17 mathrai per aksharam - ???
18 mathrai per aksharam - double kalam sankeerna gathi
19 mathrai per aksharam - ???
20 mathrai per aksharam - triple kalam kanda gathi
and so on.... right? The higher numbers ( beyond 9? ) may just be theoretical and not used in practice.

VK - What you say is right - only thing is that while I was preparing notes for better understanding of all concerned, you took forth a step too many.
I wanted to elaborate in detail the origination of different nadais or how gathis came into existence.

Well, One and Two maatraas do not have much significance by themselves except for assisting in between lessons as you will find out in later notes.

What you have said VK, as reproduced below is absolutely correct.
3 mathrai per aksharam - normal kalam thisra gathi
4 mathrai per aksharam - normal kalam chathusra gathi
5 mathrai per aksharam - normal kalam kanda gathi
6 mathrai per aksharam - double kalam thisra gathi
7 mathrai per aksharam - normal kalam misra gathi
8 mathrai per aksharam - double kalam chathusra gathi
9 mathrai per aksharam - normal kalam sankeerna gathi
10 mathrai per aksharam - double kalam kanda gathi
12 mathrai per aksharam - triple kalam thisra gathi
14 mathrai per aksharam - double kalam misra gathi
16 mathrai per aksharam - triple kalam chathusra gathi
18 mathrai per aksharam - double kalam sankeerna gathi
20 mathrai per aksharam - triple kalam kanda gathi

In most concerts, you will find reference only to the following gathis:
Thisram, Chatusram and Kandam.
In some Thani avartanams - reference is made to Misram too.
Sankeernam was popularized by Tanjore Sri Upendran who in the company of Sri Harishankar has gone into the depths of playing Sankeernam on more than one occasion.

From eleven onwards, though the terms attributed are correct, there is hardly any audio evidence that these have been played.

Thavil is one instrument where 11, 13 and 15 maatraas per aksharam were played - and they were known as Eka-dasham, Triyo-dasham and Pancha-dasham respectively, although I am not in possession of any audios to demonstrate the same to you.

I do remember about a discussion I had with Karaikudi Mani sir during one of his trips to Bombay about 5-7 years back about usage of these 11, 13 and 17 maatraas and to this all that he had to say was -
1. On theory it is possible - but not in a concert - mainly because on most occasions, one will find the tala at a faster pace and playing the 11, 13 and 15 per aksharam will not produce good clarity owing to the speed that is required to be deployed.
2. Even if one were to play 11, 13 and 15 maatraas per two aksharams, this would have to be done by means of adjustment i.e. 5 for the first aksharam and 6 for the second in the case of eka-dasham; 6 for the first and 7 for the second in the case of traiyo-dasham and 7 for the first and 8 for the second in the case of pancha-dasham - and this is wrong. Mridangam playing requires that distribution of maatraas between the aksharams be equal and distortion in this distribution will be wrong.

This also brings to my mind a similar statement made by the legendary Palghat Mani Iyer in one of the discourses on the net titled "Layam".

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 22 Mar 2006, 00:42

Param Sir:

Excellent!! My thinking behind that table was to bring together the 'kAlam' and 'gathi' under one umbrella and thanks for validating that. And you have gone beyond that by introducing us to the terminology from the thavil world for the 11, 13 and 15. I have not come across that anywhere else. The table is pretty much complete now.

Please continue on with your planned course work....I have some questions about what you said regarding playing the mathras per two aksharam but we will keep it for later... But one thing you can think about adding to your curriculum, beyond the basics, is to show audio examples for two aksharam spanning techniques for any gathi.

param · Post by **param** » 22 Mar 2006, 09:53

VK,

Though I am not promising this - I will surely ask a friend of mine when I meet him next, to demonstrate playing the ekadasham, the triyodasham and panchadasham and also recite it with the talam (on the Aadi talam) and try to upload these as audios for your benefit.

Best wishes to all of us.

param · Post by **param** » 25 Mar 2006, 23:54

I am uploading another example of vishranti - pls forgive me for the disturbance. I dont really understand how this came into existence.
Click on the link below:

http://rapidshare.de/files/16399898/Vis ... evathi.mp3

Vishranti is between:
3.46 and 3.50
3.58 and 4.02

These timings are using Winamp v 5.21.

Will up-load more examples soon.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 26 Mar 2006, 01:43

param

That was a real good example. vishranti is not simply a pause but a pause with significance (it is difficult to put it in words).. somewhat like sowkhyam from the vocalist point of view! OK?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 26 Mar 2006, 02:02

Yes indeed, very understandable and relatable example. Thanks Param.