The Opening Number

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 04 Jun 2018, 14:37

Now that some decorum has been restored, may be we can discuss the "moral" behind the Mahabharatha war.

I don't think it was "Evil must be eradicated" or even about "good wins over evil".

I am sure it has some moral messages - such as, "Do not gamble with people".

RSR · Post by **RSR** » 04 Jun 2018, 15:07

https://sites.google.com/site/homage2ms ... -thum-haro

பாரதியின் பாஞ்சாலி சபதம் படித்திருகிறீர்களா?
இல்லையெனில் , உடனே படியுங்கள்
Read Barathy's panchaali sabatham in the page.

Pratyaksham Bala · Post by **Pratyaksham Bala** » 04 Jun 2018, 16:07

One may get the answer in Svargarohanika Parva, the 18th Parva of Mahabharatha.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m18/index.htm

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 04 Jun 2018, 19:55

There may be no moral as much as lessons.
Most wars are fratricidal starting with the early ones between devas (sons of Aditi) and daiyas (sons of Diti, Aditi and Diti being wives of Kasyapa). Wars do not distinguish between good and bad. All get killed. There is no absolute good or absolute bad. Wars become inevitable despite sincere and reasonable efforts. God must be on your side. That is not about prayer and submission, but earning the right for god to be on our side by conduct. Any theoretical lessons learnt in a crunch situation will be forgotten as Krishna has to recapitulate Gita later to Arjuna! (I say this on the authority of my teacher Sri Sridhara Thathachariar. At the end of the war, Krishna opened the topic with Arjuna. "Do you remember Gita I taught you before the commencement of the war?" "Gita, you taught me? Did you wake up from a dream?" The whole thing is green in my mind.)
By the way, are we discussing opening number or ending number?

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 04 Jun 2018, 22:42

I think the debate is if "Evil must be eradicated" be taken as a moral lesson from the Mahabharatha. I find such a black and white classification as good/evil quite at the polar opposite of what the Mahabharatha has to teach. It is really all shades of grey in the epic.

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 04 Jun 2018, 23:26

It is said about Mahabharata, 'what is not available in this, may not be (or is not) available anywhere else'. That shall explain.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 05 Jun 2018, 14:06

MB is not so much about good and evil as about conflict management, about dharmasankata, about a higher dharma seeing no harm in violating a lesser dharma. It is about exrtaordinary (contrived?) situations starting from obtaining progeny. We should not draw moral lessons from it mindlessly. It is an interesting story and rewarding to read.

RSR · Post by **RSR** » 05 Jun 2018, 21:09

Hitler?
Any way, kindly revert back to the main thread 'opening number'.
DISCUSSUIN OF GOOD AND EVIL SHOULD BE BASED ON THE KRITHIS OF CM VAGGEYAKARARS.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 06 Jun 2018, 06:15

Discussion should be on opening number, not good and evil.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 06 Jun 2018, 10:18

The "good vs evil in the context of Mahabharatha" sub-discussion seems to have emerged into a consensus. No need to flog a dead horse.

Sivaramakrishnan · Post by **Sivaramakrishnan** » 06 Jun 2018, 10:57

Well, happy to note that the debate has come to an end!!

ram1999 · Post by **ram1999** » 06 Jun 2018, 12:15

RSR wrote: ↑01 Jun 2018, 20:09 A CM concert is meant to be an offering to the Almighty. and the audience also should have that mindset. It is not meant for acrobatics and irreverent behaviour ( like walking out during a concert) and chatting between themselves. Sri.VVSadagopan has written about the obnoxious audience culture in sabha concerts

This is a huge expectation gap, unfortunately.
Specially the way the concert performances during the music festival has evolved is that it has become more a social event, meet ups, jumping from one music hall to another with a piece of paper and noting what is sung. Neither there is bhakthi in the music offering not there is any seriousness in the listeners. It is just a rigmarole !!

It is now highly commercialized. Cant help as musicians have taken music as a full time profession and it is their likelyhood. They need to earn to sustain unlike the older generation musicians who did not care of the money flow but concentrated fully on the music. There is nothing right or wrong and is highly debatable.

I would prefer concerts held as one offs concerts. Something similar to the Ramnad 100 series that is being held wherein musicians pour their music heart out fondly remembering the great musician ! I do not see that in the music events / series. My view - can be thrashed

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 06 Jun 2018, 12:27

Sigh...It is going to be a bit of unplugging for the idealists when they realize that the vessels of divine music (specifically only their selective idea of what divinity should and should not be) were and are still human (as they were). Hopefully they'll get over it.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 06 Jun 2018, 12:49

RSR wrote: ↑01 Jun 2018, 20:09 Sri.VVSadagopan has written about the obnoxious audience culture in sabha concerts

How long ago was this? Seems to be the around the golden era that we are all pining for.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 06 Jun 2018, 14:29

Many of us have written about bad audience behaviour... and many of us have done the stuff that we complain about.

There is often bhakthi in the music. Whether the audience are able to receive and/or join is in our hands. It can be anything from simply not being able to get the mind off life's problems, or the bad behaviour we write about. Staying with horses: you can take a horse to water, but you cannot make it it drink. Whether we drink the nectar available is our responsibility.

I don't think the music is "highly commercialised." At least not in this city, things may differ in other parts of the world. There are a tiny handful of musicians that even earn respectable fees for what they do on stage. Some of them are good musicians too, although some may turn to popularism, and those, we could say commercial.

When and if the music becomes highly commercialised, then that will be an end to our free concerts. Richer people than some of us will be buying tickets for Rs.000s. And many of them, if there are any at all, may be a lot less appreciative than us badly-behaved lot!

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 07 Jun 2018, 09:47

RSR wrote: ↑01 Jun 2018, 20:09 Irreverent behaviour ( like walking out during a concert) and chatting between themselves. Sri.VVSadagopan has written about the obnoxious audience culture in sabha concerts

People have needs to walk out, they could do it reverentially between songs. But an entire community of people not having appreciation for a key facet of the art and doing an exodus is something to be concerned about. Now people are chatting on youtube! With texting, they could do this very discreetly

. In this day and age to get people into the hall is a big deal, we need to be a bit lenient and find ways to tell Audience to maintain decorum so people are not disturbed.

As regards if the art is commercialized, society has not done enough to reach out to people the right way. Those were days when people sought it themselves. Now this is a bit of proselytizing age for everything. Indian traditions do not impose anything on anybody , so there is no need to feel diffident about talking about them. Unfortunately all wrong ways of talking about it have emerged.

As regards commercialization, rAgA tunes have been commercialized already by film music people. Well we say that is not authentic music! Wrong word. There is no authority! Right way of seeing it is, it is not music cherished across generations as sacred!

No! Rich people will not pay through their nose to listen to this music. NRI(s) and others paying high tickets is to just listen to their favorite musicians that's it. Just out of love of their music, which they may not have had if they had stayed back.

If Rich people pay through their nose to listen to this or it gets commercialized like crazy, then it will not be music that is cherished across generations anymore. You need something intense for that. And it is not about bhakti themes, religion and faith.

Western classical is finding out the hard way!

https://www.quora.com/Is-classical-musi ... ly-popular

Irrespective of the class of people and what not, for somebody to make an effort in this day age to attend a classical music performance is indeed remarkable.

To insinuate that classical music is appreciated by people of high class society is one of the most dishonest statements made! Only a sick leftist will think like that! If Harold Powers told him (TMK) that , he is dead wrong. That idea is dead on arising itself - can never arrive. It cannot be made even in Western classical , irrespective of bow ties and ushers!

I used to work in Berkshire County , Massachusetts and Boston Symphony was performing and with no knowledge or exposure, two of us out of curiosity , not owing a vehicle yet, took a taxi - big deal to spend that money mind you - to listen. I don't think we would have been able to go if it were Mike Jackson performing.

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 07 Jun 2018, 09:50

From the memories of the Tanjore Marathi Grundig tape collector: Sri V V Sundaram was appealing for funds too often , in between a concert. A cardiologist apparently got annoyed and wrote a big check just so that he would not appeal any more.

May be one of those very rare instances when Rich have opened their check books!

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 07 Jun 2018, 10:53

sureshvv wrote: ↑04 Jun 2018, 22:42 I think the debate is if "Evil must be eradicated" be taken as a moral lesson from the Mahabharatha. I find such a black and white classification as good/evil quite at the polar opposite of what the Mahabharatha has to teach. It is really all shades of grey in the epic.

Mahabharata is about establishing Dharma and what we would consider somewhat good were also sacrificed to uphold it. Dharma in today's parlance could be approximated as "sustainable society". Even Pandavas were killed, if killing means the body perishes as their sons ( who were bodies that replaced them for the future, but different jivas) were killed as well. Because even they failed to uphold it. A women disrobed ( this is an instance, but it could be taken literally as well) in public is a broken society.

As they say many nation states today are broken states and literally Women ill treated is definitely one of the reasons. India is already declared a broken state! We don't need a western french republic angle , and a human rights discourse to conclude that! Human rights, the way we discuss it, are the most irrelevant to this discussion in fact. Because then , we would conclude that there is more human rights and equality now than in Mahabharata times. And the Left being in charge of this discourse makes it especially a travesty.

And U.S / Europe are also heading there!

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 07 Jun 2018, 11:11

shankarank wrote: ↑07 Jun 2018, 10:53 Mahabharata is about establishing Dharma and what we would consider somewhat good were also sacrificed to uphold it. Dharma in today's parlance could be approximated as "sustainable society". Even Pandavas were killed, if killing means the body perishes as their sons ( who were bodies that replaced them for the future, but different jivas) were killed as well. Because even they failed to uphold it. A women disrobed ( this is an instance, but it could be taken literally as well) in public is a broken society.

And what do we make of the several underhanded ways adopted by Krishna to favor one side over the other? Do we take this to mean that the end justifies the means?

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 07 Jun 2018, 12:14

Shankarank, have you forgotten? the rich, corporate or individual, have opened their cheque book for almost every concert here. And us lefties are very grateful.

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 07 Jun 2018, 18:13

You are talking about sponsorship vs. buying at the counter. Individual sponsors have made positive impact, in many cases they know what they are sponsoring.

Corporate sponsorship is not always positive - they are image building , brand building exercises and not done with the right intent always, but they may also have some good outcomes here and there, because there is a community of people that do care. The sponsorship happens because some from the community actively pursue that also, and the corporates, as I see it, have not demonstrated a kind of commitment that is required.

If crowd comes , I will also place a banner and give you some money goes the attitude.

And this is where the argument about corporate being a public entity, how can they sponsor an art form stuck in parochialism is being raised. Corporate entities with the influence they have on society at large, have not promoted / helped disseminate the right understanding of our heritage ( music being one of them) to the people at large.

sankark · Post by **sankark** » 07 Jun 2018, 18:46

shankarank wrote: ↑07 Jun 2018, 18:13 how can they sponsor an art form stuck

Think of it as advertisement - I want to reach this particular set of folks at this venue - and this question disappears?

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 07 Jun 2018, 23:03

Actually, I think they have tax incentives, and maybe are even obliged to spend a certain amounts. Certainly some maximise the advertising, and not always tastefully. Still, let us be glad of it!

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 08 Jun 2018, 06:31

Suresh, (#69)
There is a saying - you see what you look for. If all that you see in Mahabharata is cunningness of kRshNa, Good luck to you.

Tirukkural verses -
நன்மையும் தீமையும் நாடி நலம்புரிந்த
தன்மையான் ஆளப் படும்

குணம் நாடி குற்றமும் நாடி - அவற்றுள்
மிகை நாடி மிக்க கொளல்

With prayers to God to bestow you with a better understanding of what is dharma.

Vinobha Bhave defines dharma as law, justice, righteous conduct and duty. This law is same as Rta of vEdas - rhythm.

Pratyaksham Bala · Post by **Pratyaksham Bala** » 08 Jun 2018, 08:14

Unanswered questions.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 08 Jun 2018, 08:16

The question is not what we take. The digression was into evil and dharma and MB as a guide. MB is a mixed guide. The actions of Krishna have been a subject of wide discussion. Even in MB, it has been debated. For example, none other than Yudhishtira, strangely as it may appear, agreed for killing a guru under a pretext. The beauty of MB is in such episodes. What moral do you draw here? That is up to you. Was that deed moral? The answer depends on you. All major heroes were killed in an unjust way. Krishna concedes to Duryodhana that Pandavas could not have won but for the unfair acts. But, he also reprimands Duryodhana for his evil deeds. In actual life, we have grey, never black and white.
All of us here draw our lessons from diverse sources based on our experience, and at times expediency (lesson from MB?).

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 08 Jun 2018, 08:37

PB,
One question I will ask - though it has no direct relevance here.
What if Netaji Subhash Chandra Bose's plan to wage war against British had suceeded, ie, had Axis (Germany and Japan) had won the war, what would have happened to India?
There are many imponderables in history. For every so called 'underhanded' ways, a suitable answer can be given. Whether one will be convinced or not, is a different matter.
I am stating this with conviction based on my reading of Mahabharata.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 08 Jun 2018, 08:42

The best exposition I read was by Arthur Osborne.

Pratyaksham Bala · Post by **Pratyaksham Bala** » 08 Jun 2018, 09:05

vgovindan wrote: ↑08 Jun 2018, 08:37One question I will ask - though it has no direct relevance here.
What if Netaji Subhash Chandra Bose's plan to wage war against British had suceeded, ie, had Axis (Germany and Japan) had won the war, what would have happened to India?
There are many imponderables in history. For every so called 'underhanded' ways, a suitable answer can be given. Whether one will be convinced or not, is a different matter.
I am stating this with conviction based on my reading of Mahabharata.

"Do we take this to mean that the end justifies the means ?"

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 08 Jun 2018, 09:25

sureshvv wrote: ↑07 Jun 2018, 11:11 And what do we make of the several underhanded ways adopted by Krishna to favor one side over the other? Do we take this to mean that the end justifies the means?

Per the story, Duryodhana got all his forces , whilst he played charioteer to this side. So favors were done to each as per the perception of both the sides.

The use of yukti to defeat a formidable enemy or wiggle out of a tricky scenario is even in older purANAs.

A hunter chasing a boar asks a Satyavrata in penance whether he saw it go past. he is said to have replied :

‘Ya pasyanthi na sabhrute
Ya bhrute na pasyanthi’

It means the eyes which see cannot speak and the tongue which speaks cannot see.

Mahabharata was a dharma yuddha - so the means were fair in general. Those who wrote the epic, did not hide the means used or dress it up and it can be debated and put to test with ones own convictions. They might have stated their view of it after the fact ( I mean the story fact - I am not putting historicity into it!) , but whatever happened is recorded.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 08 Jun 2018, 09:37

That is a patently false conclusion. All great warriors Bhishma, Drona, Jayadratha, Karna, Bhurisravas, etc. were killed by unfair means. Duryodhana was hit below the belt that Balarama was enraged. Abhimanyu was killed unfairly. The greatest injustice was done to Karna in the name of caste first, by cheating him out of his natural protection, by obtaining a boon for not killing other Pandavas, and by Krishna protecting Arjuna from an arrow that would have killed him. When we read MB, our minds do not consider these as flagrant because of the suffering they were put to in injustice. When we look around our own lives, we know how righteousness at all costs is utopian. If anyone indulges in adharma, he is not spared, be it even god. He has to undergo the aftermath. In actual life, the lines are blurred, and the line we choose for being effective may not satisfy the normal ethics. That does not justify 'ends is what matters.' We discuss these issues inconclusively. It is like Shakespearean tragedy, esp. Hamlet. The problems are stated and discussed, but there is no final word.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 08 Jun 2018, 10:28

May be our lackadaisical attitude towards corruption in public officials stems from the conditioning of our collective mind done by our epics.

sankark · Post by **sankark** » 08 Jun 2018, 10:40

kvchellappa wrote: ↑08 Jun 2018, 09:37 and by Krishna protecting Arjuna from an arrow that would have killed him.

Nagasthram? What is wrong with that - the charioteer/friend protecting his king/friend? Karna didn't heed to Salliyan's word to aim the asthram for Arjuna's heart rather than head. So that was a combination of just plain old friends duty and ego on the other side. Admittedly Salliyan did many things to make Karna loss; but finally he also gave some timely inputs, didn't he?

Is MB as it is in its current epic form true to the original Jayam or has this been willy nilly added to/changed through ages.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 08 Jun 2018, 10:53

vgovindan wrote: ↑08 Jun 2018, 06:31 Suresh, (#69)
If all that you see in Mahabharata is cunningness of kRshNa, Good luck to you.

It is not "all I see". But it is sure hard to ignore. May be I am not a full devotee yet!

Ponbhairavi · Post by **Ponbhairavi** » 08 Jun 2018, 12:14

Talking about ends and means two kurals appear relevant . They are in the chapter”வினைத்தூய்மை”(purity of action.)
Kural 654- இடுக்கண் படினும்இளி வந்த செய்யார்
நடுக்கற்ற காட்சி யவர்.which can be approximately rendered as : those with steady and clear vision,even when they are subjected todespair ( இன்னல்)will not do disgraceful deeds .
Kural 658: கடிந்த கடிந்தொரார் செய்தார்க்கு அவை தாம்
முடிந்தாலும் பீழை தரும்
If we perform Actions which have been known as forbidden ,such deeds even if they complete successfully, will cause disgrace.
the present day political scenario of principles and political assasinations is dealt with by J.P.Sartre in his play “ The dirty hands “(which coicidentally was staged ij 1947 the yeAr of assassination of Mahatma Gandhi.the tamil translation of this play can be read in my blog
Https://sites.google.com/view/rajagopalanponbhairavi.

Pratyaksham Bala · Post by **Pratyaksham Bala** » 08 Jun 2018, 13:09

Ponbhairavi wrote: ↑08 Jun 2018, 12:14 Talking about ends and means two kurals appear relevant . They are in the chapter”வினைத்தூய்மை”(purity of action.)
Kural 654- இடுக்கண் படினும்இளி வந்த செய்யார்
நடுக்கற்ற காட்சி யவர்.which can be approximately rendered as : those with steady and clear vision,even when they are subjected todespair ( இன்னல்)will not do disgraceful deeds .
Kural 658: கடிந்த கடிந்தொரார் செய்தார்க்கு அவை தாம்
முடிந்தாலும் பீழை தரும்
If we perform Actions which have been known as forbidden ,such deeds even if they complete successfully, will cause disgrace...

How to link these two Kurals to Krishna's deeds ?

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 08 Jun 2018, 16:38

There is a e-book on 'Dharma as Law' by Dr. Horacio Francisco Arganis Juarez analysing the whole Mahabharata which can be downloaded as txt file here -

http://www.veda.harekrsna.cz/encycloped ... Dharma.txt

I will relate a story - probably this is also from Mahabharata. A Yadava woman (who sells milk and milk products) was going in the morning with her products in a basket, carrying on her head, to sell them in the nearby village. At that time a garuda was flying in the air carrying a snake for food; the snake spit venom then; then a wind blew and the cloth cover of the milk products' pot was removed and the poison of the snake fell into the pot. The woman knew nothing of this and went to the village and sold the products. Someone who purchased the product, consumed it and fell dead.

The messenger of Yama came to take away the dead person's life. While on the way, there were two yakshas who had witnessed the whole sequence of events, were discussing among themselves as to who is to blame for the death of this person - whether milk product seller or the wind that blew away the cloth from the pot, or the snake which spit the venom or the garuda who was carrying the snake. The Yama dhuta halted on the way and intervened in the discussion and told them that 'you both who are discussing about a natural procession of events, and trying to apportion blame for the death, are responsible for the death; come with me to Yama loka'.

Similar is many of the Mahabharata stories - the moment we touch one story, we will be dealing with a whole sequence of events.

First, we must be very clear whether those who seek clarification, do believe in the whole of Mahabharata and related Krishnavatara or not. You cannot have selective amnesia and pick and choose events in isolation. I will relate another story of Krishna. Krishna along with Balarama (as youngsters) were coming to Mathura for the first time in order to deal with their uncle - Kamsa. These two youngsters were riding a chariot and a crowd in the street was watching them with awe - at their beauty and valour they had heard of. A flower selling, young woman was carrying flowers in a basket to the palace. She was a hunch-back from birth. She looked up and saw these two handsome men on the chariot. Her heart was filled with yearning, that only a woman of her age would feel - how she has been cheated by the fate.

Krishna happened to see the woman; got down from the chariot; went to the woman and pressing her feet with his feet, lifted her neck up and lo! she became straight. Krishna spent that night with her. Now the moral of the story, as I derive, is that the divinity does not differentiate between beauty and ugly - just by looking at the body; it is the mind that matters. You may call it a cock and bull story.

In gItA, kRshNa says 'na mE pArthAsti kartavyam trishu lOkEshu kincana - nAnavAptam avAptavyam, varta Eva ca karmaNi'. Unless one subscribes to this and also understands that kRshna himself was a witness to the destruction of his own clan which had become vain, it is futiile to discuss.

I can give more details on other episodes too if needed. This thread will become very long, if we start discussing the episodes of Mahabharata - like Mahabharata itself. For God's sake, let us not have selective amnesia to pick and choose events without contextualising them.

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 08 Jun 2018, 16:57

The episode where duryodhana, as a youngster almost killed bhIma by drowning him in the river, the episode of அரக்கு மாளிகை (lac palace) in which duryodhana wanted to burn the whole Pandavas along with the building, the episode of disrobing of draupadi in the assembly - watched by bhIshma and drONa, the episode of duryodhana sending Army, to invade the kingdom where Pandavas were living incognito for 14 years, to expose them and send them to vanvAs for another stint of 14 years, the episode where duryodhana plotted to kill kRshna in the assembly where he was discussing peace with Pandavas, the episode wherein yudhisthra sends his brothers to save duryodhana and his camp from destruction by gandharvas, are not subject of discussion by anyone.

Romila Thapar once told that had Buddha been there in place of kRshNa, the war would have been averted. She knows neither Buddha nor Krishna. Buddha would have willingly accepted violence against his person, but not violence perpetrated by somebody who is strong and powerful, against some other who is weak. The whole life of Buddha is based on human suffering. That kind of 'understanding' of Indian ethos is the bane of modern India. They know not what is dharma and adharma - a pity.

Pratyaksham Bala · Post by **Pratyaksham Bala** » 08 Jun 2018, 18:00

.
To make the posts on Mahabharata relevant to the thread, let us find out whether there is any mention in Mahabharata of any music performance; if so, what was the OPENING NUMBER !

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 08 Jun 2018, 18:34

We follow the dictum of sempanar koil Thiru Vaidyanathan , as narrated by Sanjay in his award acceptance speech in Bramha Gana sabha. If you ask about something , it will be given then and there , no question of asking to come some other day or some other place.

So threads follow that rule, that any question related or unrelated to the "opening" post will be given right there. No saying open another thread.

So that relates both "Opening" and digression to a musical precedent!

MaheshS · Post by **MaheshS** » 08 Jun 2018, 19:01

Pratyaksham Bala wrote: ↑08 Jun 2018, 18:00 .
To make the posts on Mahabharata relevant to the thread, let us find out whether there is any mention in Mahabharata of any music performance; if so,

Chirtasena taught music to Arjuna.

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 08 Jun 2018, 19:52

Thanks Mahesh for reminding me.
PB,
Please refer to bRhannaLa episode where arjuna (as eunuch) teaches music and dance to uttara kumAri -princess - later married off to abhimanyu - in virATa parva.
(Film 'nartanaSala' - telugu)

Pratyaksham Bala · Post by **Pratyaksham Bala** » 08 Jun 2018, 20:08

Was there any music programme ? And what was the Opening Number ?

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 08 Jun 2018, 20:19

We are fed on 'Ends do not justify means', 'Two wrongs do not make one right', 'Returning good for evil is virtue', etc.
We are also taught cardinal virtues.
In a discussion on MB, these are applied and found failing.
A reply to a question cannot be finding answer to another question.
MB is a well contrived story, with a lot of difficult situations, conflicts, aberrations. They have engaged the minds of generations over two millennia, both the laymen and the pundits, and there is no clear-cut answer. The answers have to proceed from assumptions, the validity of which cannot be foolproof.
We must accept as in life that there is a given situation and how two people take it will not coincide. There can be no value judgment or despairing if the position of another person is at variance.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 08 Jun 2018, 20:24

Pratyaksham Bala wrote: ↑08 Jun 2018, 18:00 .
To make the posts on Mahabharata relevant to the thread, let us find out whether there is any mention in Mahabharata of any music performance; if so, what was the OPENING NUMBER !

Probably.... 42.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 08 Jun 2018, 20:53

vgovindan wrote: ↑08 Jun 2018, 16:57 The episode where duryodhana, as a youngster almost killed bhIma by drowning him in the river, the episode of அரக்கு மாளிகை (lac palace) in which duryodhana wanted to burn the whole Pandavas along with the building, the episode of disrobing of draupadi in the assembly - watched by bhIshma and drONa, the episode of duryodhana sending Army, to invade the kingdom where Pandavas were living incognito for 14 years, to expose them and send them to vanvAs for another stint of 14 years, the episode where duryodhana plotted to kill kRshna in the assembly where he was discussing peace with Pandavas, the episode wherein yudhisthra sends his brothers to save duryodhana and his camp from destruction by gandharvas, are not subject of discussion by anyone.

I have not come across anyone arguing that these are irreproachable. When everyone is agreed, what is there to discuss? They are presented as evil in the story and by every pouranika.

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 08 Jun 2018, 21:23

I could understand one thing in these discussions - people who, we consider as vrtuous by nature - kRshNa, dharmarAja, bhIshma, drONa etc. - are not expected to violate dharma; on the otherhand, people who we consider wicked by nature - duryOdhana et al - are not expected to follow any dharma - sort of licence.

If that be so, dharma can never raise its head, because power always vests with the wicked. Therefore, in order to restore at least equilibrium, the virtuous have to exceed the limits which they set for themselves; otherwise, they will ever remain slaves, nay to the extent of even denial of citizenship in their own motherland, which duryOdhana wanted to do to pANDavas.

I, therefore, conclude that end justifies means if one has no personal axes to grind (name, fame or even rulership) - except survival. Also, if ever virtuous like bhIshma and drONa side with wickedness or even remain silent spectators, they too become one with wicked.

I wonder whether this dilemma is applicable today too!

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 08 Jun 2018, 21:33

Kvc (#96)
So, wickedness has licence - am I right?

RSR · Post by **RSR** » 08 Jun 2018, 22:09

the original post was very good. There must be hundreds of young musicians and learners who can give their preference for thrthe opening number.
Alas.. are they given a chance what relevance has all these lengthy posts on the simle op?
why not open a fress thread prefereably in the lounge for goog and evek, mb etc?

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 08 Jun 2018, 22:54

I'll go with the slokam (mantra? Guru mantra) that Smt Vedavalli, Sumithra, and others of her school begin with. I have only to imagine it and I feel peace. That is a very good way to begin a concert.

If anybody wants to use the word divine, I won't argue, nor will I say it has to be that particular piece. A soulful, soul-touching beginning.