Taking this argument further, Vgvindan saab, would your appreciation of Tygarajas works diminish if some new research should reveal that he was a wife beater or had a mentally retarded boy at home and had him chained to one of the pillars and kept constantly praying for him ?
It would diminish if you have set store by the personality himself or the imaginary God/Goddess.
It will not diminish - as in my case- if you have set store by the substance of the art.
We talk of values being imbibed from souls so far back in time , but lose the opportunity of picking them up from persons in front if us.If Tygaraja were to be my neighbour , I would be the last person to recognise his merit.
People who talk of Malis habits care so less for Mali himself, they fail to understand why he became like that in the first place.People write romantic biographies of a kid playing marbles being pulled inside the house tp perform,just because he was a genius with a piece of Wood.
Would he have been more respectful if he accepted everything without dissent, was punctual, played mechanically , earned substantially, supported everyone who wanted to be supported, got jobs fro his kith and kin in various banks and Govt/Private establishments and...?
The Music Of Mali , is so divine that we mortals can never fathom the workings of his mind.And in some measure, we may have to be troubled souls,ourselves ,to feel the full pang.But this may be disputed.
There are Values and Values everywhere.It is for us to pick them up.Carnatic Music may be one of the sources, no doubt.
Reminds me of my experience in learning to have the courage to do what I feel correct in Life .
And I did not get it from CM
In my first job, My boss had rejected my project work on an Industrial Engineering subject (handling and relayout) during apprenticeship.He wanted me to make corrections based on his recommendations and redo the project.
My Dad (who was one of the earliest Industrial Engineers at Telco) goaded me not to do that (Let the Line Manager take it or leave it -You have to be a real mirror.
Not a Mirror that gives him the face he wants)
Finally ,One fine day I was sacked from the company for this misdemeanour (and all this within a year of passing out with a Rank from Mysore University) and at Lunch time, I was in tears, at home.
My Dad who was washing clothes at the rear heard me come in ,and enquired ,with my Mom -How's he doing?
My Mom says "He is almost in tears , poor fellow '
And then I witnessed a scene from the dark kitchen ,deep inside the house- a scene which has kept me brave for the rest of my life-
Standing in bright sunshine,he Slapped his frothy palm on his forehead and exclaimed--
My Foot.I was such a fool.
23 years ago , I wasted 650 rupees , distributing sweets in every street of Jamshedpur , claiming that God had gifted me a Son.He could have blessed me with a Girl and saved me my Money.Now let me see for myself!
Needless to say , by the time he came in I was a Man.
Now tell me , I can take this story in two different directions
One - the real one-the story of a man who was to my knowledge a Fine interpreter of Ramakrishna Paramahamsa's teachings and methods or
a different kind of person whom we are discusssing here.
Does it make any change to the lesson I learnt.
I dont think it does.
Values from Carnatic Music
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jayaram
- Posts: 1317
- Joined: 30 Jun 2006, 03:08
Hmm, are we then saying that T's life has no bearing on his kritis? Imagine if he had accepted tons of money from the king (and a comfy position too), and then sung 'Nidhichala sukhama' - would we be able to appreciate the song as much? They would then sound like empty words.Taking this argument further
As Govindan says, a person's actions do have to match their words/music etc, at least to a minimum extent. Seeing your temple priest smoking a joint would surely be weird!
We know some of our musicians have not lived up to these standards, but that is their weakness, and should not be treated as the norm and a value to be passed on.
'You have to walk your talk, mate', as the saying goes.
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coolkarni
1.
take an exit survey at any concert hall -find out how many know the real and full meaning of the song and LASTLY, whether they would prefer to stop coming to the next concert, if they had to prove themselves with respect to that approach of T.
2.I would still be comfortable with any priest who smokes and as long as he is honest about it.
One of my Close friend's aged father had a heart attack when my friend was not around ( I was waiting for him at his home).
He refused to ne assisted by me , because he was not sure of my Caste (Probably I was a meat eating Maratha Kulkarni, he must have thought)
I repeatedly offered assistance -without feeling hurt- but to no avail.He lost precious time and soon passed away after a struggle at the Hospital.
He would have probably died at home itself if he had known that his supposedly conservative son drank at the slaeziest of bars, ate pork and smoked cigarettes two streets away with such a Sissy look on his face , watching out for some odd mami who may see him and report to his wife.
T's Life has its bearings on his krithis.Not on the listeners.
It is convenient for us to put him on a pedestal and go about our own business.That is my point.
And I forgot to add .That old man taught English Literature all his Life.And spent most of his spare time in temples and Concert Halls.
take an exit survey at any concert hall -find out how many know the real and full meaning of the song and LASTLY, whether they would prefer to stop coming to the next concert, if they had to prove themselves with respect to that approach of T.
2.I would still be comfortable with any priest who smokes and as long as he is honest about it.
One of my Close friend's aged father had a heart attack when my friend was not around ( I was waiting for him at his home).
He refused to ne assisted by me , because he was not sure of my Caste (Probably I was a meat eating Maratha Kulkarni, he must have thought)
I repeatedly offered assistance -without feeling hurt- but to no avail.He lost precious time and soon passed away after a struggle at the Hospital.
He would have probably died at home itself if he had known that his supposedly conservative son drank at the slaeziest of bars, ate pork and smoked cigarettes two streets away with such a Sissy look on his face , watching out for some odd mami who may see him and report to his wife.
T's Life has its bearings on his krithis.Not on the listeners.
It is convenient for us to put him on a pedestal and go about our own business.That is my point.
And I forgot to add .That old man taught English Literature all his Life.And spent most of his spare time in temples and Concert Halls.
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rajumds
- Posts: 715
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 11:16
I would never a hire a person who is a habitual drinker, who may or maynot report to work on any given day and comes to work drunk - however good he may be in his work.
Just becuase of some one is brilliant in what he does, doesn't mean his bad habbits become a virtue.
Every profession requires a person have skills for the job and attitude towards work. Just because he is extremely skilled, his attitude can't be ignored. The latest mantra in hiring is "Hire for attitude, train for skill"
Just becuase of some one is brilliant in what he does, doesn't mean his bad habbits become a virtue.
Every profession requires a person have skills for the job and attitude towards work. Just because he is extremely skilled, his attitude can't be ignored. The latest mantra in hiring is "Hire for attitude, train for skill"
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drshrikaanth
- Posts: 4066
- Joined: 26 Mar 2005, 17:01
I suppose it is time to take a look at drunken performers in general and forget Mali for a moment. Not everyone is a Mali.
There is something called sabhAmaryAde- avai madippu. It is not acceptable to come drunk/stoned to give a concert. It does make a difference on the impact. It may well be because the audience consists of all too human mortals, not saints for the majority. I have been witness to a young artiste giving a concert drunk- and behaving in a hopelessly obnoxious manner. It was neither funny nor could I/others be nonchalant about it.
Yes- it is no ones concern what a person, even an artist, does in private. It should not be, in so far as how one looks at their music or performance. And yes, people will make exceptions to a Mali. Call it hypocrisy, or the sense to recognise a genius, or the insight into the pain behind. But I repeat, not everyone is a Mali.
And yes, the way history looks at Tyagaraja and his nidhi cAla sukhamA would not be the same had he gone and sung it for money/royal patronage. Or if he had been a strIlOlupa. The notations/dhAtu would have been no worse, but the words would have been utterly meaningless and so also the music(Yes music as the sum total of all ingedients. sAhitya does have a place as also the persona of the vAggEyakAra).
There is something called sabhAmaryAde- avai madippu. It is not acceptable to come drunk/stoned to give a concert. It does make a difference on the impact. It may well be because the audience consists of all too human mortals, not saints for the majority. I have been witness to a young artiste giving a concert drunk- and behaving in a hopelessly obnoxious manner. It was neither funny nor could I/others be nonchalant about it.
Yes- it is no ones concern what a person, even an artist, does in private. It should not be, in so far as how one looks at their music or performance. And yes, people will make exceptions to a Mali. Call it hypocrisy, or the sense to recognise a genius, or the insight into the pain behind. But I repeat, not everyone is a Mali.
And yes, the way history looks at Tyagaraja and his nidhi cAla sukhamA would not be the same had he gone and sung it for money/royal patronage. Or if he had been a strIlOlupa. The notations/dhAtu would have been no worse, but the words would have been utterly meaningless and so also the music(Yes music as the sum total of all ingedients. sAhitya does have a place as also the persona of the vAggEyakAra).
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arasi
- Posts: 16873
- Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30
Govindan,
While I agree that music (in a concert hall) would be most fulfilling where both the musician and the audience value nAdOpAsanA--it is not an easy thing to realize.
As for priests drinking, I don't know about that. The crass advertizing of prices for darshan, special darshan and so on by priests in several languages as we are ushered into some great temples can turn us off. Makes us feel like saying 'excuse me' to the gods, beat a retreat and to seek solitude to meditate upon them.
You said it right. Saintly singers can't be found in concert halls. Those who appear on stage are human, are prone to be as stressed out as the young career person in the audience. Their lifestyle is not ideal. While I wish that music were less commercial and more spiritual, I am happy when I come across music in a concert hall that is elevating. As a rasikA, I would rather not isolate the individual from the music (if the music is well worth it), analyse him and give up my enjoyment of it. Let us think of the performer himself. If his music is a moving experience for us, isn't it so for him as well? In which case, good for him and good for us!
While I agree that music (in a concert hall) would be most fulfilling where both the musician and the audience value nAdOpAsanA--it is not an easy thing to realize.
As for priests drinking, I don't know about that. The crass advertizing of prices for darshan, special darshan and so on by priests in several languages as we are ushered into some great temples can turn us off. Makes us feel like saying 'excuse me' to the gods, beat a retreat and to seek solitude to meditate upon them.
You said it right. Saintly singers can't be found in concert halls. Those who appear on stage are human, are prone to be as stressed out as the young career person in the audience. Their lifestyle is not ideal. While I wish that music were less commercial and more spiritual, I am happy when I come across music in a concert hall that is elevating. As a rasikA, I would rather not isolate the individual from the music (if the music is well worth it), analyse him and give up my enjoyment of it. Let us think of the performer himself. If his music is a moving experience for us, isn't it so for him as well? In which case, good for him and good for us!
Last edited by arasi on 12 May 2007, 19:04, edited 1 time in total.
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vgvindan
- Posts: 1430
- Joined: 13 Aug 2006, 10:51
Arasi,
Cool and Arasi,
Weren't every one of the geniuses like Ramakrishna Paramahamsa, Vivekananda, Thyagaraja, Purandara Dasa, Meera, Kabir - to name a few - all eccentric? The 'socalled' mythological figures kRSNa, Rama et all were also eccentrics. Without such a frame of mind one cannot break out of shackles of all those burdens of religious and social customs and practices placed on the humanity and show a new path.
But eccentricity need not degenerate into moral degradation. Again I remember the film 'Sindhu Bhairavi'. By enjoying only the 'divine' music of Mali and not restoring him to a normal state, the Rasikas have, in fact, failed him. Who knows he might have taken CM to higher levels had he been restored.
But the question is 'Is History repeating itself even now?' and if so, what the Rasikas are doing for those unfortunate ones?
Indeed, I found the 4 hour climb of Tirumala - thinking of the Lord, to behold whom 'padi vElu kannulu kAvale', more purposeful than that one minute actual presence being pushed and jostled by crowd and temple servants.Makes us feel like saying 'excue me' to the gods, beat a retreat and to seek solitude to meditate upon them
Cool and Arasi,
Weren't every one of the geniuses like Ramakrishna Paramahamsa, Vivekananda, Thyagaraja, Purandara Dasa, Meera, Kabir - to name a few - all eccentric? The 'socalled' mythological figures kRSNa, Rama et all were also eccentrics. Without such a frame of mind one cannot break out of shackles of all those burdens of religious and social customs and practices placed on the humanity and show a new path.
But eccentricity need not degenerate into moral degradation. Again I remember the film 'Sindhu Bhairavi'. By enjoying only the 'divine' music of Mali and not restoring him to a normal state, the Rasikas have, in fact, failed him. Who knows he might have taken CM to higher levels had he been restored.
But the question is 'Is History repeating itself even now?' and if so, what the Rasikas are doing for those unfortunate ones?
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vs_manjunath
- Posts: 1466
- Joined: 29 Sep 2006, 19:37
Very Much True.vgvindan wrote:Weren't every one of the geniuses like Ramakrishna Paramahamsa, Vivekananda, Thyagaraja, Purandara Dasa, Meera, Kabir - to name a few - all eccentric? The 'socalled' mythological figures kRSNa, Rama et all were also eccentrics. Without such a frame of mind one cannot break out of shackles of all those burdens of religious and social customs and practices placed on the humanity and show a new path.
But eccentricity need not degenerate into moral degradation. Again I remember the film 'Sindhu Bhairavi'. By enjoying only the 'divine' music of Mali and not restoring him to a normal state, the Rasikas have, in fact, failed him. Who knows he might have taken CM to higher levels had he been restored.
But the question is 'Is History repeating itself even now?' and if so, what the Rasikas are doing for those unfortunate ones?
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Nick H
- Posts: 9467
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
What a fascinating discussion 
Rather than being able to agree with anyone, I would say that everyone has given food for thought.
There are always the extremes, and there are always there are always the exceptions to whom we give great licence because of their positive aspects (and it is a tenet of mine, I have very few fixed ones, that nobody is all bad. Or good).
I have seen an artist arrive to sing for a young girl's dance arangetram almost incapable because of drink. That, to me, given the event and the inherent responsibility to a young person, was absolutely unforgivable behaviour. I can say, however, that, on stage, his condition was not noticeable --- and I was close enough to observe. Yes, I lost respect for that artist; I also felt so sad for the tragedy that this sickness of alcoholism had so affected his life and probably not left him a long future in his career as artist and teacher.
Yes, in general, there are certain minimum standards.
(Then I reflect that some of my favourite western music of thirty years ago was performed by people who were, at the time, destroying their bodies with various chemicals. I still find some of that music uplifting. Music is a strange thing...)
Arasi... I will always bear with the story about budha, the dead child and the grains of rice. One of my favourite. And particularly poignant today as my wife has gone to visit a sick friend, considerably younger than us, who is probably in the last months of her life.
Rather than being able to agree with anyone, I would say that everyone has given food for thought.
There are always the extremes, and there are always there are always the exceptions to whom we give great licence because of their positive aspects (and it is a tenet of mine, I have very few fixed ones, that nobody is all bad. Or good).
I have seen an artist arrive to sing for a young girl's dance arangetram almost incapable because of drink. That, to me, given the event and the inherent responsibility to a young person, was absolutely unforgivable behaviour. I can say, however, that, on stage, his condition was not noticeable --- and I was close enough to observe. Yes, I lost respect for that artist; I also felt so sad for the tragedy that this sickness of alcoholism had so affected his life and probably not left him a long future in his career as artist and teacher.
Yes, in general, there are certain minimum standards.
(Then I reflect that some of my favourite western music of thirty years ago was performed by people who were, at the time, destroying their bodies with various chemicals. I still find some of that music uplifting. Music is a strange thing...)
Arasi... I will always bear with the story about budha, the dead child and the grains of rice. One of my favourite. And particularly poignant today as my wife has gone to visit a sick friend, considerably younger than us, who is probably in the last months of her life.
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arasi
- Posts: 16873
- Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30
Nick,
I appreciate Your perspective. While discussing practitioners of music, we are also speaking of shades of human personality. We as rasikAs, at the receiving end of the music, come in all shapes and shades too, just as the performers. Every given moment in life is not a black and white one. It is an amalgam of many moods, emotions and thoughts. This is why each performance is different--with the same artiste, same venue and more or less the same audience. We bring our individual selves, performer and the listeners, and if it is a worthy performance, it is a result of all positive elements coming together. There is devotion, suspension of mundane thoughts, an emotional surge, uplifting of one's spirit and you may add many more to the list. It is sharing of a gift. I am sure we all agree that these things happen, unless our intellect or intolerance for 'anyhing less than perfect' takes over. Cool is a prime example for all this. Let's forget for a moment all that he does for CM and the forum. Just seeing him as a rasika, and the experience he brings to his rasikahood says what I am trying here to convey. There is no Art without life, just as there is no tyAgarAjA without bhakthi.
Compartmentalizing life's various experiences, instead of considering life as a whole and Art as an expression of life is what brings about problems both to the practitioner of Art and the rasikAs...
I appreciate Your perspective. While discussing practitioners of music, we are also speaking of shades of human personality. We as rasikAs, at the receiving end of the music, come in all shapes and shades too, just as the performers. Every given moment in life is not a black and white one. It is an amalgam of many moods, emotions and thoughts. This is why each performance is different--with the same artiste, same venue and more or less the same audience. We bring our individual selves, performer and the listeners, and if it is a worthy performance, it is a result of all positive elements coming together. There is devotion, suspension of mundane thoughts, an emotional surge, uplifting of one's spirit and you may add many more to the list. It is sharing of a gift. I am sure we all agree that these things happen, unless our intellect or intolerance for 'anyhing less than perfect' takes over. Cool is a prime example for all this. Let's forget for a moment all that he does for CM and the forum. Just seeing him as a rasika, and the experience he brings to his rasikahood says what I am trying here to convey. There is no Art without life, just as there is no tyAgarAjA without bhakthi.
Compartmentalizing life's various experiences, instead of considering life as a whole and Art as an expression of life is what brings about problems both to the practitioner of Art and the rasikAs...
Last edited by arasi on 13 May 2007, 02:23, edited 1 time in total.
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coolkarni
This is getting interesting and very educative , by the day and the hour.
At this point I am reminded of another of Chestertons gems
Could it be that they branch out in ecstasy , confident that the Core growth is always directed upwards , on its way to link up with the mighty power?
I am inclined to think that these Issues which we see as "going against the moral grain 'are such an integral part of a whole picture.
No wonder , Kahlil Gibran , inspite of all his trials and tribulations could write such beautiful words to his friend Mary Haskell
That to me is the essence of our learning from any classical art.
A serene feeling that it relates to me more than anything else.
For as the saying goes, everytime an artist picks a pencil and draws a line on his canvas , he is separating the ugly from the beautiful , with those lines.
At this point I am reminded of another of Chestertons gems
Yes.The whole purpose has to be to get the green blood in us springing and rising , yearning to reach the stars.Though much of that Chlorophyll may lie scattered in the twigs that branch in all directions.EVERY detail points to something, certainly, but generally to the wrong thing. Facts point in all directions, it seems to me, like the thousands of twigs on a tree. It is only the life of the tree that has unity and goes up -- only the green blood that springs, like a fountain, at the stars.
'The Club of Queer Trades
Could it be that they branch out in ecstasy , confident that the Core growth is always directed upwards , on its way to link up with the mighty power?
I am inclined to think that these Issues which we see as "going against the moral grain 'are such an integral part of a whole picture.
No wonder , Kahlil Gibran , inspite of all his trials and tribulations could write such beautiful words to his friend Mary Haskell
These words send shivers of excitement through me everytime I read them.They could have been my words!!When the hand of Life is heavy and night songless, it is the time for love and trust.
And how light the hand life becomes and how songful the night, when one is loving and trusting all.
That to me is the essence of our learning from any classical art.
A serene feeling that it relates to me more than anything else.
For as the saying goes, everytime an artist picks a pencil and draws a line on his canvas , he is separating the ugly from the beautiful , with those lines.
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knandago2001
- Posts: 645
- Joined: 05 Sep 2006, 10:09
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vgvindan
- Posts: 1430
- Joined: 13 Aug 2006, 10:51
kn,
I may also point out that Mirza Ghalib was a Sufi philosopher - See his verse 'na thA kuch to qudA thA; kuch na hOtA to qudA hOtA'. He was not voicing anybody else's verses.
Mirza Ghalib did not neglect his wife; they did not have children because his wife had repeated abortions and death of children after birth - that was one of the reasons he took to drink.
His attachment to courtesan was because she was the one who gave voice to his verses.
Mirza Ghalib belonged to royal lineage and he was drawing a purse from Britishers as a compensation.
Yes, he was obsessed with his drink. In fact it was a Hindu friend - a bania who helped him liberally with money - not expecting anything in return.
You cannot compare Mirza Ghalib with musicians - it is like the Tamil saying 'moTTa talaikkum muzhngAlukkum muDicu'.
CM does not ask you to be bogged down by any 'conundrums' - it is your perception.
The basic fact is that CM musicians cannot survive only on AlApana - like Hindustani Musicians do with Bada Qayal and Chota Qayal.
If CM musicians want to prosper, they have play the game. But there is always scope and freedom to change the rules of the game and the game itself. But who will bell the cat? Only another Thyagaraja or MD or Purandara Dasa has to come for that. Till then, let us not complain too much.
I may also point out that Mirza Ghalib was a Sufi philosopher - See his verse 'na thA kuch to qudA thA; kuch na hOtA to qudA hOtA'. He was not voicing anybody else's verses.
Mirza Ghalib did not neglect his wife; they did not have children because his wife had repeated abortions and death of children after birth - that was one of the reasons he took to drink.
His attachment to courtesan was because she was the one who gave voice to his verses.
Mirza Ghalib belonged to royal lineage and he was drawing a purse from Britishers as a compensation.
Yes, he was obsessed with his drink. In fact it was a Hindu friend - a bania who helped him liberally with money - not expecting anything in return.
You cannot compare Mirza Ghalib with musicians - it is like the Tamil saying 'moTTa talaikkum muzhngAlukkum muDicu'.
CM does not ask you to be bogged down by any 'conundrums' - it is your perception.
The basic fact is that CM musicians cannot survive only on AlApana - like Hindustani Musicians do with Bada Qayal and Chota Qayal.
If CM musicians want to prosper, they have play the game. But there is always scope and freedom to change the rules of the game and the game itself. But who will bell the cat? Only another Thyagaraja or MD or Purandara Dasa has to come for that. Till then, let us not complain too much.
Last edited by vgvindan on 13 May 2007, 11:08, edited 1 time in total.
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knandago2001
- Posts: 645
- Joined: 05 Sep 2006, 10:09
vgvindan avare:
My perception is that CM frees me / gives me the license to worship as I please without having to worry about philosophical conundrums - e.g. dvaitamu sukhama advaitamu sukhama? or siva mantramunaku "ma" jeevamu, maadhava mantramunaku "ra" jeevamu....
Whatever be the reasons for the way events unfolded in Ghalib's life, my intention was to simply point out his sense of artistic integrity - an art form (be it music or poetry or painting) cannot necessarily be held hostage / made to serve a given end since its commitment is to its own self.
My perception is that CM frees me / gives me the license to worship as I please without having to worry about philosophical conundrums - e.g. dvaitamu sukhama advaitamu sukhama? or siva mantramunaku "ma" jeevamu, maadhava mantramunaku "ra" jeevamu....
Whatever be the reasons for the way events unfolded in Ghalib's life, my intention was to simply point out his sense of artistic integrity - an art form (be it music or poetry or painting) cannot necessarily be held hostage / made to serve a given end since its commitment is to its own self.
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coolkarni
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coolkarni
Is there any evidence to consider the Trinity as social reformers ?
After all we all looking at those aspects of Good Living which we can inculcate in our own lives and become better human beings.
Just like the way "Gandhian" means a certain set of images, thought processess , life styles and goals, followers , practitioners and believers,
Can we assess the impact of the Trinity's Music on society?
Or is their Music just a case of re-inforcing the obvious , with an intelligent use of mythology and musical wizardry ?.
Can the Complete teachings of Tyagaraja be brought under a definite list of Values and Rules-Keeping aside the the subject of Bhakthi towards Rama for the time being ?
After all we all looking at those aspects of Good Living which we can inculcate in our own lives and become better human beings.
Just like the way "Gandhian" means a certain set of images, thought processess , life styles and goals, followers , practitioners and believers,
Can we assess the impact of the Trinity's Music on society?
Or is their Music just a case of re-inforcing the obvious , with an intelligent use of mythology and musical wizardry ?.
Can the Complete teachings of Tyagaraja be brought under a definite list of Values and Rules-Keeping aside the the subject of Bhakthi towards Rama for the time being ?
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vgvindan
- Posts: 1430
- Joined: 13 Aug 2006, 10:51
When Muslims came to this country, they came as traders; then came the invasion; then came the Muslim rule.
When British came to this country, they came as traders; then came British India Company; then came the British Government.
When American Continent was invented, they thought it was India. They named the locals Indians; then came the settlers and then came the Colonial Rule.
In each of the above three examples, which part of the process we could call as 'watershed'?
In the life of Earth, from one celled organisms to Human being, every step is a water-shed. Contemporaneously, none of these steps would have been discernible by themselves as watersheds. It is only when we look from Historic perspective, we see major changes and delineate some of the steps as 'water shed'.
Purandara Dasa is considered a watershed for CM.
IMHO, the Trinity are, as a group and as individuals, form a water shed.
The contribution of Purandara Dasa and the Trinity is that they brought a public appeal to the Music by relieving it (CM) from Kings' Courts. Kings and Moneyed People were no longer required to be sponsors of the Music and Musicians.
That public appeal is because of Bhakti movement of Purandara Dasa and the Trinity which made music relevant to common individuals as opposed to Kings and other patrons who wanted music only for their entertainment - right from the time waking them up till they go to bed. (Our epics also do contain such references). That's why the Raga timings should have cropped up. Certains Ragas are more melodious at certain hours of the day and certain Ragas were more appealing for lullaby etc is, besides the point.
Based on my observation over a period of time, I feel that musicians are getting restive because they do not want to be bound by bhakti as a musical expression. They want music for its own sake. Well, probably, there may be another round of sponsors - instead of Kings - it would be corporates now, probably, because once you divest CM from bhakti movement, it is bound to lose its mass appeal.
Probably we are living in a watershed which, contemporaneously, we are not able to discern.
Good Luck.
When British came to this country, they came as traders; then came British India Company; then came the British Government.
When American Continent was invented, they thought it was India. They named the locals Indians; then came the settlers and then came the Colonial Rule.
In each of the above three examples, which part of the process we could call as 'watershed'?
In the life of Earth, from one celled organisms to Human being, every step is a water-shed. Contemporaneously, none of these steps would have been discernible by themselves as watersheds. It is only when we look from Historic perspective, we see major changes and delineate some of the steps as 'water shed'.
Purandara Dasa is considered a watershed for CM.
IMHO, the Trinity are, as a group and as individuals, form a water shed.
The contribution of Purandara Dasa and the Trinity is that they brought a public appeal to the Music by relieving it (CM) from Kings' Courts. Kings and Moneyed People were no longer required to be sponsors of the Music and Musicians.
That public appeal is because of Bhakti movement of Purandara Dasa and the Trinity which made music relevant to common individuals as opposed to Kings and other patrons who wanted music only for their entertainment - right from the time waking them up till they go to bed. (Our epics also do contain such references). That's why the Raga timings should have cropped up. Certains Ragas are more melodious at certain hours of the day and certain Ragas were more appealing for lullaby etc is, besides the point.
Based on my observation over a period of time, I feel that musicians are getting restive because they do not want to be bound by bhakti as a musical expression. They want music for its own sake. Well, probably, there may be another round of sponsors - instead of Kings - it would be corporates now, probably, because once you divest CM from bhakti movement, it is bound to lose its mass appeal.
Probably we are living in a watershed which, contemporaneously, we are not able to discern.
Good Luck.
Last edited by vgvindan on 13 May 2007, 15:12, edited 1 time in total.
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vgvindan
- Posts: 1430
- Joined: 13 Aug 2006, 10:51
Keeping aside the the subject of Bhakthi towards Rama for the time being
I totally agree with Arasi; Art does not exist for its own sake; tyAgarAja and bhakti cannot be separated, just like light and heat cannot be separated from fire notwithstanding all those inventions of CFL.There is no Art without life, just as there is no tyAgarAjA without bhakthi.
puruSaH prakRtisthO hi bhungtE prakRtijAnguNAn || BG. XIII.21 ||
"puruSha seated in prakRti, experiences guNas born of prakRti."
Art is life's expression; therefore it cannot have an existence of its own.
Fragrance of the flower is for the bees.
The egg and chick argument is an old one. That the new born baby contains all the sperms and eggs, as the case may be, is a well known fact. That's why kRShNa says in bhagavad-gItA -
sarva yOniShu kauntEya mUrtayaH sambhavanti yAH ||
tAsAm brahma mahadyOniraham bhIjapradaH pitA || 14.4 ||
"Whatever forms are produced, O son of kunti, in all the wombs, the great prakRti is their womb, and I the seed-giving Father."
Therefore 'life imitates Art' is a fallacious argument.
It may be applicable only in cases of cinemas - like the one produced by Mani Ratnam - whose film's song 'thaiya thakka' on the top of a moving train was copied and resulted in electrocution (and death) of four boys at Safdarjung Railway Station and Mani Ratnam continues to be praised as a Great Director - what a greatness - rank commercialism!
Last edited by vgvindan on 13 May 2007, 18:27, edited 1 time in total.
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coolkarni
By a strange coincidence today I spent a couple of hours peering into the eyes of a young chap , who had taken up martial arts at Chandralekha's Academy .life imitates Art' is a fallacious argument.
Over cups of tea and Fruit Juice.
He went on to explain on the reasons a bit later...
"Quite early in his career , he had felt saturated and seemingly nowhere to go.Four years down the road, today,his eyes were glistening when he narrated how he tackles his job more holistically , almost as if it was a work of art.How each individual element of discipline picked up there,gave him additional perspectives in his project with Corporation school children
But these are stories of others.I will get back with my own , later, as we progress.
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sbala
- Posts: 629
- Joined: 30 Jul 2006, 08:56
Oops! The simple tea ceremony (a Zen ritual) is taking a life of its own. The young chap's association with the project has just begun and he's just a part-time volunteer doing it for his own learning and not because of any great ideals. There are people who are younger and older who have given up their plush jobs and do this full time and those people need all the support they can get.
And there is nothing called "Chandralekhas's Academy". I was told she frowned upon any kind of institutionalisation. Lots to say but we'll reserve it for our future tea ceremonies. Maybe, we should do it once in 15 days or so!
And there is nothing called "Chandralekhas's Academy". I was told she frowned upon any kind of institutionalisation. Lots to say but we'll reserve it for our future tea ceremonies. Maybe, we should do it once in 15 days or so!
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arasi
- Posts: 16873
- Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30
Nick,
Is it well before your time? Lulu's (?) song 'I like a nice cup of tea in the morning to start the day today (?), and at half past eleven, my little heaven is a nice cup of tea, I like a nice cuppa tea with my dinner (lunch:)) and a nice cup of tea with my tea (dinner:)) etc--for a tea commercial. ChAi might come from other parts of the world, but the Britishers know how to blend tea for a good cuppa...
Is it well before your time? Lulu's (?) song 'I like a nice cup of tea in the morning to start the day today (?), and at half past eleven, my little heaven is a nice cup of tea, I like a nice cuppa tea with my dinner (lunch:)) and a nice cup of tea with my tea (dinner:)) etc--for a tea commercial. ChAi might come from other parts of the world, but the Britishers know how to blend tea for a good cuppa...
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Nick H
- Posts: 9467
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
I have a feeling that that tea song might be a lot older... maybe even decades older. We'll have to check out by Google or something.
Yes, the Brits know well how to make black tea, or tea with a dash of cold milk (tea with a dash of hot milk, as per Chennai immitation of English tea, is revolting!) --- but I've been a chai addict for some years now, long before coming to live here.
Tea is such a personal thing, and, back to values, I have often tried to make tea for people just the way they like it.
I do regret, though, that I have been unable to drink coffee for a long time. My wife says I have Brahmin tastes (must have done something very bad to be reborn English
) --- but my body doesn't allow me to share the coffee taste.
Yes, the Brits know well how to make black tea, or tea with a dash of cold milk (tea with a dash of hot milk, as per Chennai immitation of English tea, is revolting!) --- but I've been a chai addict for some years now, long before coming to live here.
Tea is such a personal thing, and, back to values, I have often tried to make tea for people just the way they like it.
I do regret, though, that I have been unable to drink coffee for a long time. My wife says I have Brahmin tastes (must have done something very bad to be reborn English
) --- but my body doesn't allow me to share the coffee taste.