My son Ananth was one of the three male singers in the inaugural concert. I commend Sri VVS on his vision, the unique concept of having 30 children carry on the torch on the 30th anniversary of the Cleveland Aradhana. My wife and I are both teachers - she teaches vocal, veena and flute (her students won awards in all three categories in Cleveland competitions), and I teach mridangam - and we are aware of all the issues and logistics in coordinating so many students even locally. VVS took on the colossal task of coordinating the students remotely via Skype, brought in top-notch teachers, some of whom were technophobes, and put together this show to realize his vision. The children were very cooperative, patient and hard-working.
A show on this scale is bound to have some flaws. Execution cannot be 100%. It is a sign of maturity to ignore such imperfections and appreciate/commend the intent. The music that we enjoy so much, Carnatic music, is a very intellectual tradition. When we hear recordings of GNB, Semmengudi, TNS, etc., we ignore the slight imperfections in sruti that may occasionally occur and marvel at their genius. So also, when we admire works of art, we do not take out a magnifying glass and study each and every blemish. We step back and admire the whole effect. There are some in this forum who have taken pleasure in blowing apparent flaws in the inaugural concert out of proportion. I do not want to lower myself to acknowledge or respond to such senseless ravings, but I do want to appeal to others who do read this forum not to be swayed by any negative comments that may appear regarding the inaugural concert. Both the concept and the concert deserve nothing but praise.
Cleveland Aradhana 2007
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appu
- Posts: 443
- Joined: 20 May 2007, 09:46
Finally, positive feedback from the parents of the children who participated. We all must feel very proud for these young minds. Born and raised in this culture, they have chosen to embrace carnatic music to such an extent. I also commend the sheer dedication and hard work of the parents, teachers and mostly the organizers. Remember you critics the words of Bambi's mother "When you have nothing good to say, do not say anything at all" atleast not against these young, pure and talented souls. Let them grow and blossom and keep Carnatic music alive.
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rskumar
- Posts: 6
- Joined: 21 May 2007, 00:01
To Facto and Murukavi - 
You have seen the responses from many others. I have direct email responses from many who do not even consider it worthy to respond to your crap on this blog - that probably includes one of the families that you keep referring to as "the affected party". They too are ashamed of your act . After seeing your responses- ignoring and ridiculing everyone, I understand your position and the reasons for the same.
Time to add value. So, here is the deal -
Grow up, educate yourselves on good behavior, positive attitude, respect for others and above all what it takes to build and be a good part of a good community
Work hard, approach me for help and guidance - I will do this as a service to you - coz I can understand why with all the expertise/tricks that you seem to have - from palming/bribing media and other folks to get false publicity/reviews; to passing judgments about so many people in one go - you still have not (probably) succeeded yourself (I do not want to discredit your kith and kin for your mean behavior) to have anything to blow your own trumpet
Learn to have a positive attitude in life
Develop the courage to disclose your true identity and have direct conversations instead of shooting bullets in the air
THEN , I will invest my time and give you all the details , to your satisfaction - the good and the bad things that happened, the rights and the wrong; lessons learned; and relevance of each point in my original response to the context et al.
CYNICISM IS NOT A SUBSTITUTE FOR HARD WORK TO SUCCESS. YOU CAN CHOOSE TO IGNORE AND RIDICULE AS MANY PEOPLE AS YOU WANT ON THIS BLOG - YOU WILL LEARN THIS SECRET SOONER OR LATER - FOR YOUR OWN GOOD. ALL THE 30 KIDS HAVE LEARNED THIS AHEAD OF YOU HENCE THEY WERE ON THE STAGE PERFORMING, INSTEAD OF BLOGGING THEIR WAY TO FAME ! POOR KIDS - LEAVE THEM ALONE AND YOU CAN HAVE THIS BLOG SITE FREE FOR YOURSELVES AS LONG AS YOU WANT AND ENJOY YOURSELVES AS THEY SCALE GREATER HEIGHTS
May God truly spend some dedicated time on you to show you the right path -
Kumar
You have seen the responses from many others. I have direct email responses from many who do not even consider it worthy to respond to your crap on this blog - that probably includes one of the families that you keep referring to as "the affected party". They too are ashamed of your act . After seeing your responses- ignoring and ridiculing everyone, I understand your position and the reasons for the same.
Time to add value. So, here is the deal -
Grow up, educate yourselves on good behavior, positive attitude, respect for others and above all what it takes to build and be a good part of a good community Work hard, approach me for help and guidance - I will do this as a service to you - coz I can understand why with all the expertise/tricks that you seem to have - from palming/bribing media and other folks to get false publicity/reviews; to passing judgments about so many people in one go - you still have not (probably) succeeded yourself (I do not want to discredit your kith and kin for your mean behavior) to have anything to blow your own trumpet Learn to have a positive attitude in life Develop the courage to disclose your true identity and have direct conversations instead of shooting bullets in the airTHEN , I will invest my time and give you all the details , to your satisfaction - the good and the bad things that happened, the rights and the wrong; lessons learned; and relevance of each point in my original response to the context et al.
CYNICISM IS NOT A SUBSTITUTE FOR HARD WORK TO SUCCESS. YOU CAN CHOOSE TO IGNORE AND RIDICULE AS MANY PEOPLE AS YOU WANT ON THIS BLOG - YOU WILL LEARN THIS SECRET SOONER OR LATER - FOR YOUR OWN GOOD. ALL THE 30 KIDS HAVE LEARNED THIS AHEAD OF YOU HENCE THEY WERE ON THE STAGE PERFORMING, INSTEAD OF BLOGGING THEIR WAY TO FAME ! POOR KIDS - LEAVE THEM ALONE AND YOU CAN HAVE THIS BLOG SITE FREE FOR YOURSELVES AS LONG AS YOU WANT AND ENJOY YOURSELVES AS THEY SCALE GREATER HEIGHTS May God truly spend some dedicated time on you to show you the right path -
Kumar
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riyer
- Posts: 1
- Joined: 23 May 2007, 04:17
As a participant in the inaugural concert, I wanted to add my 2 cents to this discussion.
- The skype lessons were conducted as advertised. The organizers as well as participants did try very hard to enable 2-way communication, but with the number of students, it was hard to accomplish that.
- All the teaching took place in the 5 months before the concert - the senior vidwans/vidushis who came onsite, were here to fine-tune the learning that was supposed to have occurred. They were not and could not be expected to 'teach' an entire concert to a student, no matter how experienced and well-prepared.
- While a lot of people felt a little over-whelmed on day 1 of practice, this was to be expected. We came from various parts of the country, were a little lost in Cleveland downtown with all the snow and didn't exactly know most of the other participants. However I feel that all those doubts and criticism vanished by Day 3 - when we were one big, close-knit group, working hard to pull this off as best as we could.
- As a participant, I was able to closely observe how opportunities were given to the students - they were truly based on how well the students were prepared and how confident they were with their rendition. We spent the first several hours making sure we were aligned on the kritis - since it is quite a feat to align 30 people performing together. Then I remember Mr.Murali walking around to ask who could sing the swarams/neraval/raaga alapanai on the few kritis we chose to expand upon. He listened to anybody and everybody who expressed an interest/raised their hand and was able to pull it off. With 1 day to go for a major concert, it is hard for the teachers to focus on equal representation rather than a successful finale - I guess that must be true for any field and any performance.
- There was no 'coached manodharmam' - however once a student got the swaram/neraval/alapanai right, they were asked to stick to it, so as to ensure minimal mistakes on the stage and also so we could stick to the time. Our concert could have easily taken all evening had we been given adequate participation and time to showcase up-to-the-minutes manodharmam on stage.
- One remarkable thing for me was the slightly varying levels of experience you had on stage - the selection did not pick all superstars. What they did pick is a group of youngsters who were motivated to learn and put in the effort to become one. Again as a participant, it was wonderful to see some of the more senior participants 'give' the slightly less experienced ones their chance in the limelight. I want to add this because it is very hard to observe these small moments from the outside, especially in a playing field that is extremely selective and very competitive.
I know I have not addressed some of the issues mentioned with respect to dissatisfaction felt or expressed - however I truly believe you would have got less of it on Day 2 and very close to none on day 3. It was truly a learning experience for all of us to see the logistics, the number of students, the talent and the difficulty in presenting each amazing performer as part of one cohesive group.
This was a very unique experience for all of us - we got to learn from the very best in Carnatic music, some of whom we have little chance of ever learning in person. We got to train with some of the best students in North America and we got to perform as a group and experience that elation that comes from knowing you were part of a team.
Quick comment on the participants that were called out - I wish that wasn't done because like I mentioned, it had very little to do with favoritism and a lot more to do with capability, confidence and the ability to pull it off on stage that day. In addition, there were several others who were given opportunities, almost everybody got at least one line of their own, and we truly felt like a group at the end of the experience.
- The skype lessons were conducted as advertised. The organizers as well as participants did try very hard to enable 2-way communication, but with the number of students, it was hard to accomplish that.
- All the teaching took place in the 5 months before the concert - the senior vidwans/vidushis who came onsite, were here to fine-tune the learning that was supposed to have occurred. They were not and could not be expected to 'teach' an entire concert to a student, no matter how experienced and well-prepared.
- While a lot of people felt a little over-whelmed on day 1 of practice, this was to be expected. We came from various parts of the country, were a little lost in Cleveland downtown with all the snow and didn't exactly know most of the other participants. However I feel that all those doubts and criticism vanished by Day 3 - when we were one big, close-knit group, working hard to pull this off as best as we could.
- As a participant, I was able to closely observe how opportunities were given to the students - they were truly based on how well the students were prepared and how confident they were with their rendition. We spent the first several hours making sure we were aligned on the kritis - since it is quite a feat to align 30 people performing together. Then I remember Mr.Murali walking around to ask who could sing the swarams/neraval/raaga alapanai on the few kritis we chose to expand upon. He listened to anybody and everybody who expressed an interest/raised their hand and was able to pull it off. With 1 day to go for a major concert, it is hard for the teachers to focus on equal representation rather than a successful finale - I guess that must be true for any field and any performance.
- There was no 'coached manodharmam' - however once a student got the swaram/neraval/alapanai right, they were asked to stick to it, so as to ensure minimal mistakes on the stage and also so we could stick to the time. Our concert could have easily taken all evening had we been given adequate participation and time to showcase up-to-the-minutes manodharmam on stage.
- One remarkable thing for me was the slightly varying levels of experience you had on stage - the selection did not pick all superstars. What they did pick is a group of youngsters who were motivated to learn and put in the effort to become one. Again as a participant, it was wonderful to see some of the more senior participants 'give' the slightly less experienced ones their chance in the limelight. I want to add this because it is very hard to observe these small moments from the outside, especially in a playing field that is extremely selective and very competitive.
I know I have not addressed some of the issues mentioned with respect to dissatisfaction felt or expressed - however I truly believe you would have got less of it on Day 2 and very close to none on day 3. It was truly a learning experience for all of us to see the logistics, the number of students, the talent and the difficulty in presenting each amazing performer as part of one cohesive group.
This was a very unique experience for all of us - we got to learn from the very best in Carnatic music, some of whom we have little chance of ever learning in person. We got to train with some of the best students in North America and we got to perform as a group and experience that elation that comes from knowing you were part of a team.
Quick comment on the participants that were called out - I wish that wasn't done because like I mentioned, it had very little to do with favoritism and a lot more to do with capability, confidence and the ability to pull it off on stage that day. In addition, there were several others who were given opportunities, almost everybody got at least one line of their own, and we truly felt like a group at the end of the experience.
Last edited by riyer on 23 May 2007, 05:16, edited 1 time in total.
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murukavi
- Posts: 4
- Joined: 11 Oct 2006, 02:59
riyer: finally, an excellent posting with pertinent points related to the earlier allegations.
here is my response to both the parents who got upset by my post, let me put the records straight (at least from my point of view):
* I wasn't the one who brought in the original allegations, neither did I bring in names of specific child/children in my comment - so I don't have to answer for these
* in his emotional reply, if a father refers to an absolutely unrelated column in a newspaper that published 'rave reviews' of his child's performance and says 'I will ask Times of India to issue a regret notice' - I have as much right to assume the extent of influence he has over the newspaper as he has the right to bring in such an unrelated piece of info about his child's performance, that too 2 years back...
(by the way, we see whole lot of parents these days praising their own children, so, while they have their right to self-advertise & self-praise, please understand others do have their rights to criticize such behaviour so that better sense may prevail in the society - refer to first quality of the 20 qualities mentioned in chap. 13 of Bagwad Gita)
* now, it is the parent who is directing personal flame towards another poster by directly saying "Grow up, educate yourselves on good behavior, positive attitude, respect for others" & "you still have not (probably) succeeded yourself (I do not want to discredit your kith and kin for your mean behavior) to have anything to blow your own trumpet" - as though blowing one's own trumpet is justified if you have enough success (in your own point of view) - this is not what is taught in almost all of the songs one sings in a Carnatic Music concert
* as regards 'complexity of the project' , I didn' say anywhere it is easy to co-ordinate such an event, given all the logistical issues even if you don't consider the internal currents within artists, parents, organizers, hosts et. al. - both between their own kind and also between each other
* nevertheless, just because something is complex, does not mean that alleged unfair intentions and practices cannot be brought to the surface / questioned - for ex. just because it is difficult and complex to build and send a spaceship into space, NASA cannot resort to unfair practices - same is the case with running organizations with public money - whether it is an Enron or a charity or a religious or a music/arts organization - may be CTA organizers are not legally required to report their finances, processes and affairs to the public - but in my eyes anyone collecting money from public offering some kind of service in return are morally and ethically obliged to make their full operations completely transparent - to give an example, please go visit the webite of Ayikkudu Sri. Ramakrishnan who runs a charity near Coimbatore...
* while I understand the anguish of a parent whose ward's name was particularly mentioned and empathize with them, it is pointless for them to pour oil into the fire by NOT answering the direct allegations - for ex. about the training violin kids got or did not get, about how many times who got to sing/perform and why and why not the others, why did one geography not get covered properly in training etc. etc. - and instead, generally counter-accusing the person who wrote the allegations and on the side, resorting to some self-propaganda - this has only resulted in all of the negative talk
* I am not sure why these folks are keen in getting to know who the people are behind the screen-names - the forum allows you to have a screen-name, doesn't it ? - it is the comments that matter not the person who makes those comments - if they are reckless or untrue, you have the option to either answer or explain your stance - or simply ignore and carry on with your life
This will be my last posting on this topic - thanks for the patience to read and for all the inputs/responses including the negative ones.
here is my response to both the parents who got upset by my post, let me put the records straight (at least from my point of view):
* I wasn't the one who brought in the original allegations, neither did I bring in names of specific child/children in my comment - so I don't have to answer for these
* in his emotional reply, if a father refers to an absolutely unrelated column in a newspaper that published 'rave reviews' of his child's performance and says 'I will ask Times of India to issue a regret notice' - I have as much right to assume the extent of influence he has over the newspaper as he has the right to bring in such an unrelated piece of info about his child's performance, that too 2 years back...
(by the way, we see whole lot of parents these days praising their own children, so, while they have their right to self-advertise & self-praise, please understand others do have their rights to criticize such behaviour so that better sense may prevail in the society - refer to first quality of the 20 qualities mentioned in chap. 13 of Bagwad Gita)
* now, it is the parent who is directing personal flame towards another poster by directly saying "Grow up, educate yourselves on good behavior, positive attitude, respect for others" & "you still have not (probably) succeeded yourself (I do not want to discredit your kith and kin for your mean behavior) to have anything to blow your own trumpet" - as though blowing one's own trumpet is justified if you have enough success (in your own point of view) - this is not what is taught in almost all of the songs one sings in a Carnatic Music concert
* as regards 'complexity of the project' , I didn' say anywhere it is easy to co-ordinate such an event, given all the logistical issues even if you don't consider the internal currents within artists, parents, organizers, hosts et. al. - both between their own kind and also between each other
* nevertheless, just because something is complex, does not mean that alleged unfair intentions and practices cannot be brought to the surface / questioned - for ex. just because it is difficult and complex to build and send a spaceship into space, NASA cannot resort to unfair practices - same is the case with running organizations with public money - whether it is an Enron or a charity or a religious or a music/arts organization - may be CTA organizers are not legally required to report their finances, processes and affairs to the public - but in my eyes anyone collecting money from public offering some kind of service in return are morally and ethically obliged to make their full operations completely transparent - to give an example, please go visit the webite of Ayikkudu Sri. Ramakrishnan who runs a charity near Coimbatore...
* while I understand the anguish of a parent whose ward's name was particularly mentioned and empathize with them, it is pointless for them to pour oil into the fire by NOT answering the direct allegations - for ex. about the training violin kids got or did not get, about how many times who got to sing/perform and why and why not the others, why did one geography not get covered properly in training etc. etc. - and instead, generally counter-accusing the person who wrote the allegations and on the side, resorting to some self-propaganda - this has only resulted in all of the negative talk
* I am not sure why these folks are keen in getting to know who the people are behind the screen-names - the forum allows you to have a screen-name, doesn't it ? - it is the comments that matter not the person who makes those comments - if they are reckless or untrue, you have the option to either answer or explain your stance - or simply ignore and carry on with your life
This will be my last posting on this topic - thanks for the patience to read and for all the inputs/responses including the negative ones.
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rskumar
- Posts: 6
- Joined: 21 May 2007, 00:01
Thank God. You did take my advise seriously atleast to some extent ! Hence let me provide some partial answers - though there is no need to provide justification.
Negativism commenced with the posting by Facto which was ignored for a significant amount of time , since folks understand the purpose of such blogs, to vent out your feelings and grieveances - I repeat vent out your feelings and grievances in a constructive manner with the good intent to correct things after putting a sincere effort to understand all sides to the story/effort . So do not try to twist facts that negativism came in because of our response ! To your point of sharanya's reference to her performance 2 years back - it was required to give just one sample reference to the direct accusation by an adult about my child's capabilities and merits of doing her piece - which was clearly avoidable. In your words - if the intent was to blow our own trumpet - this should have been all over the place over the internet or our conversations with everyone - As you seem to be a know all - please do a google search, conduct a survey of as many people as you know to figure out how many times this fact was brought about to anyone's attention in any forum - My dear philosopher - if you have truly read the Bhagwad Gita (should I interpret in your style that you are blowing your own trumpet without any relevance to this conversation ?) - please put it to use in real life - not for quotations alone. Don't assume (but validate facts - I chose not to respond with finer details since I did not want to make it a public debate which is not warranted - instead gave an opportunity to communicate directly with me over emails - which was a reasonable option if you had nothing to hide). Don't ridicule people, more so the artistes, parents or the kids - criticize the process. You got the heat because you came across doing that on a larger scale than Facto You seem to understand complex projects, NASA's efforts in putting spaceship into space but cannot decipher a simple noble effort by someone who decided to take the lead in doing something good for our kids - and translate events - good and bad in a chronological order - with dependancies/cause and effect, constraints et al (notwithstanding the fact that the whole exercise was voluntary not mandatory for all who participated). If you had chosen to do so, you would not need advise from all of us to see the positives in the entire episode - you could have gone beyond and come up with logical analysis based on FACTS to present to everybody that could have been put to use for future by way of lessons learned (not figment of your imaginations or concoctions) Last but not the least, do not try to take the high moral ground for yourself when you cannot practice what you preach - you do not have the guts to be transparent about your identity, role, involvement in this episode and you are raising Q about transparency from the organizer ! The organizer was committed, obliged to those contributed and delivered what was expected to the full satifaction of all who contributed - an evidence to this is a repeat commitment from all involved for an encore to the organizer (which happened after a full blown exhaustive open and candid conversation on the rights and the wrongs in the whole exercise with all the kids and their parents/teachers involved., lessons learned, course corrections etc) If you are really smart - I am sure you would have understood by now - the following: There were grievances which was openly discussed within the right forum, with good intent, course corrections were made at every stage within the available resources/time then and for future All 30 kids and their parents are united - it is not easy to achieve that. It happened because everyone worked hard, understood the magnitude of the challenges faced, trusted and respected each other so much so that they were all like one big family, were mature enough to know the shortcomings of the exercise- were tolerant to wait for a fair and balanced approach - had the faith in the process and above all were clear of one thing - overall objective and goal to make this a success and encourage more kids and parents to take this option for their kids in US. None of us were emotional or upset with your crap responses (which totally ignored everything that was said since you were so deep into "your own point of views"). There was no animosity/flame but a straight forward tactic - use the same language that the other person understands (there is a saying if you know - "aadi karakkara maata aadi kara; paadi karakkara maatai paadi kara) to get you into meaningful and productive conversation . We all are united and proud of our kids achievements and any effort from folks like you is not going to disturb it. Do I have to be very explicit that I was just the voice of many people (I can reveal their identities to you if you can communicate with me directly via email/phone) who really felt ashamed (verbatim in their own words) and were shocked that you guys were busy maligning everybody without any facts and demeaning the efforts of so many people who probably had nothing to gain directly for themselves but the KIDS who deserve every bit of itYou still have a long way before you can say you are grown up enough to preach to a ton of people things that you do not know how to practice ! Relax, take it easy and let the folks who understand and appreciate these things, share good things, positive things amongst themselves. The least you can contribute is to let them use the blog space effectively for a constructive dialogue
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mri_fan
- Posts: 382
- Joined: 15 Aug 2006, 22:12
Mr. Kumar,
Your arguments would be stronger and your text would be easier to read if you did not use simile faces at any opportunity. No, we don't think you are cool, or funny. You are incapable of discussing anything without calling other people names. I suggest from now on, you avoid statments like
"If you are really smart - I am sure you would have understood by now - the following:"
You are doing yourself and your daughter a great disservice, but more importantly, you really should not be the voice of these 30 kids. Perhaps someone with a cooler head should take over this responsibility of speaking on this forum. You've obviously been insulted to the point where you just seem to do nothing but attack anyone who may post an opinion that may differ with yours.
Add me to the list of people you can insult in your next post. And please stop with the simile faces.
Your arguments would be stronger and your text would be easier to read if you did not use simile faces at any opportunity. No, we don't think you are cool, or funny. You are incapable of discussing anything without calling other people names. I suggest from now on, you avoid statments like
"If you are really smart - I am sure you would have understood by now - the following:"
You are doing yourself and your daughter a great disservice, but more importantly, you really should not be the voice of these 30 kids. Perhaps someone with a cooler head should take over this responsibility of speaking on this forum. You've obviously been insulted to the point where you just seem to do nothing but attack anyone who may post an opinion that may differ with yours.
Add me to the list of people you can insult in your next post. And please stop with the simile faces.
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Facto
- Posts: 10
- Joined: 30 Apr 2007, 22:12
Facto's Fact Check
Original Post
Insider feedback - cleveland inaugural concert - a casual chat with several parents disclosed the following facts - the kids learnt through skype with no face to face lessons. Later AS Murali was sent to east cost to teach some kids and did a good job. Suguna Purushottamam was sent to take care of kids in west and midwest. Thiagarajan Ramani was asked to take care of flute. The feedback from the assigned kids is that these two spent all the time trying to make money by taking private lessons for other students and did not train the inaugural concert participants. Jaylakshmi sekhar thought the veena participant. Sudhindran - Srimusham Raja Rao's student spent 15 days each with the two mrudangam kids and thought them. No one was sent to train the violin students and there was absolutely no training given for violin what so ever. It was advertised that TN Krishnan would teach, but not a single class was given. Students in the midwest like St Louis, Texas, Alabama were feeling hopeless and lost as there was absolutely no training provided by Suguna Purushottamam and Thiagarajan Ramani. The results were obvious at the inaugural concert and only students who were trained by AS Murali got a chance to exhibit their individual manodharma talent. The same students were given multiple opportunities and favoritism's for either hosting artists or being core volenteers for the aradhana committee even though their kids did not deserve to be at the lime light multiple times like Sharanya sivakumar, Lathika Sridhar, Vibav Mouli.
..................................................................................................................
Facto never said that the organizers failed. Only said Organizers sent vidwans but two of the so called vidwans/vidhusi's failed to do their job and so the kids in the areas assigned to them suffered.
Refer the posts to see for yourself how people agree that the AS Murali was ready to teach in 3hrs after he landed in USA.
Refer to posts that say at the practice sessions AS Murali was going around asking people what part of manodharma they are prepared in........why were Suguna and Thiagarajan's students not as prepared?
Refer to posts in this thread and a related thread under Kutcheri review for the same where a parent of a non-participant says they took classes from Thiagarajan.....further fact check to see the time whiled away at the cost of those thatpaid $1500 for the same.
Refer to the original posts that said that the vocal students were not so impressive even when they got the 1 minute to shine in the same thread.
Refer to the thread which said a students father was helping with IT for recordings........FACT CHECK - why do you need recordings when your assigned so called vidwan/vidushi does his/her job.........fact in itself that they did nothing.........
Refer to replies to this thread only from east coast..........
Bottom line - since these two failed in their job, the one's that were trained could be in the limelight at the cost of the rest.
The attempt to introduce new concepts is all fine and great, organizers did not mean to neglect the two regions in the USA, however, it happened and so it was pointed out.
Read all the posts in this thread and the related thread in this forum and you will conclude that Facto's facts were 100% true
Original Post
Insider feedback - cleveland inaugural concert - a casual chat with several parents disclosed the following facts - the kids learnt through skype with no face to face lessons. Later AS Murali was sent to east cost to teach some kids and did a good job. Suguna Purushottamam was sent to take care of kids in west and midwest. Thiagarajan Ramani was asked to take care of flute. The feedback from the assigned kids is that these two spent all the time trying to make money by taking private lessons for other students and did not train the inaugural concert participants. Jaylakshmi sekhar thought the veena participant. Sudhindran - Srimusham Raja Rao's student spent 15 days each with the two mrudangam kids and thought them. No one was sent to train the violin students and there was absolutely no training given for violin what so ever. It was advertised that TN Krishnan would teach, but not a single class was given. Students in the midwest like St Louis, Texas, Alabama were feeling hopeless and lost as there was absolutely no training provided by Suguna Purushottamam and Thiagarajan Ramani. The results were obvious at the inaugural concert and only students who were trained by AS Murali got a chance to exhibit their individual manodharma talent. The same students were given multiple opportunities and favoritism's for either hosting artists or being core volenteers for the aradhana committee even though their kids did not deserve to be at the lime light multiple times like Sharanya sivakumar, Lathika Sridhar, Vibav Mouli.
..................................................................................................................
Facto never said that the organizers failed. Only said Organizers sent vidwans but two of the so called vidwans/vidhusi's failed to do their job and so the kids in the areas assigned to them suffered.
Refer the posts to see for yourself how people agree that the AS Murali was ready to teach in 3hrs after he landed in USA.
Refer to posts that say at the practice sessions AS Murali was going around asking people what part of manodharma they are prepared in........why were Suguna and Thiagarajan's students not as prepared?
Refer to posts in this thread and a related thread under Kutcheri review for the same where a parent of a non-participant says they took classes from Thiagarajan.....further fact check to see the time whiled away at the cost of those thatpaid $1500 for the same.
Refer to the original posts that said that the vocal students were not so impressive even when they got the 1 minute to shine in the same thread.
Refer to the thread which said a students father was helping with IT for recordings........FACT CHECK - why do you need recordings when your assigned so called vidwan/vidushi does his/her job.........fact in itself that they did nothing.........
Refer to replies to this thread only from east coast..........
Bottom line - since these two failed in their job, the one's that were trained could be in the limelight at the cost of the rest.
The attempt to introduce new concepts is all fine and great, organizers did not mean to neglect the two regions in the USA, however, it happened and so it was pointed out.
Read all the posts in this thread and the related thread in this forum and you will conclude that Facto's facts were 100% true
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srikrishna
- Posts: 55
- Joined: 06 May 2007, 17:08
Facto says:
"Facto never said that the organizers failed. Only said Organizers sent vidwans but two of the so called vidwans/vidhusi's failed to do their job and so the kids in the areas assigned to them suffered."
It may not have been clear from my earlier post (#39) in this thread that we are from Texas; in our opinion, Smt. Suguna Purushottaman went beyond her call of duty (she told us that she was volunteering as a service to this musical community) and did an excellent job with our daughter. At the time of our initial interactions with Smt. Suguna Purushottaman, our daughter was not prepared with the Bhairavi piece, Brochevarevaruraa and the RTP. She patiently taught her all the three in addition to ensuring that the other pieces were correctly learnt. The sheer logistics of her having to deal with students assigned in Texas, Missouri, Alabama, Bay Area and Sacramento rules out the possibility of her travelling to each of these places and spending a lot of personal time with each of these students. She readily obliged with her time on the Skype and when we went to California. We certainly feel previleged that we (parents and daughter) have had the opportunity to interaction with her. We do not think it is fair on our part to expect her to spend all her time teaching my daughter during her stay in the US. As I have mentioned in my earlier posting, we are quite happy with the training as well as the values that she imparted to us and to our daughter.
Facto says:
"Refer the posts to see for yourself how people agree that the AS Murali was ready to teach in 3hrs after he landed in USA.
Refer to posts that say at the practice sessions AS Murali was going around asking people what part of manodharma they are prepared in........why were Suguna and Thiagarajan's students not as prepared?"
As far as manodharma is concerned, we are of the opinion that it should come from within and cannot be taught. It depends not only on prior training but also on the creativity of the individual participant. Vidwans can only do so much in the limited time. I certainly did not and do not expect my daughter to sing at the level of a concert artist just after this limited amount of training. I am sure all of us realize that it takes a lot of sadhana to have such a level of maturity and is not going to happen with just six months of training.
Facto says:
"Refer to posts in this thread and a related thread under Kutcheri review for the same where a parent of a non-participant says they took classes from Thiagarajan.....further fact check to see the time whiled away at the cost of those thatpaid $1500 for the same."
I am sure most parents agree that money is not an issue at all; rather, it is the opportunity/previlege to have been instructed by great Vidwans of our current generation and to have interactions with them. It is a memory that all of us (children/parents) cherish for years to come.
Facto says:
"Refer to the original posts that said that the vocal students were not so impressive even when they got the 1 minute to shine in the same thread."
While everyone is entitled to their opinion regarding this concert, it is the spirit and efforts of the children that were impressive.
Facto says:
"Refer to the thread which said a students father was helping with IT for recordings........FACT CHECK - why do you need recordings when your assigned so called vidwan/vidushi does his/her job.........fact in itself that they did nothing........."
Please see my response above.
Facto says:
"Refer to replies to this thread only from east coast.........."
Please note that I responded from Texas (it may not have been clear from the posting number 39 in this thread) but should have been amply clear that our ward was assigned to Vidushi Suguna Purushottaman.
Facto says:
"Bottom line - since these two failed in their job, the one's that were trained could be in the limelight at the cost of the rest."
Facto seems to imply that the failure/success of a Vidwan only depends on whether the assigned students were in the limelight during the concert. It is such a narrow view of looking at the whole venture and certainly judging eminent artists. It is such a dangerous view to take because it underplays so many other crucial factors such as the prior training of the students etc. Intangible factors such as the values (such as the standards that one sets for oneself in terms of learning) imparted by the artist and the camaraderie amongst peers are more important than just being in limelight.
Facto says:
"The attempt to introduce new concepts is all fine and great, organizers did not mean to neglect the two regions in the USA, however, it happened and so it was pointed out."
Again, as I mentioned, I am from Texas and we certainly feel previleged to be a part of this venture and to have gotten a chance to interact with Suguna maami and other reputed artists of our time.
Facto says:
"Read all the posts in this thread and the related thread in this forum and you will conclude that Facto's facts were 100% true"
What more can I say about the veracity of your statement (unless of course, one starts questioning what is meant by truth)?
"Facto never said that the organizers failed. Only said Organizers sent vidwans but two of the so called vidwans/vidhusi's failed to do their job and so the kids in the areas assigned to them suffered."
It may not have been clear from my earlier post (#39) in this thread that we are from Texas; in our opinion, Smt. Suguna Purushottaman went beyond her call of duty (she told us that she was volunteering as a service to this musical community) and did an excellent job with our daughter. At the time of our initial interactions with Smt. Suguna Purushottaman, our daughter was not prepared with the Bhairavi piece, Brochevarevaruraa and the RTP. She patiently taught her all the three in addition to ensuring that the other pieces were correctly learnt. The sheer logistics of her having to deal with students assigned in Texas, Missouri, Alabama, Bay Area and Sacramento rules out the possibility of her travelling to each of these places and spending a lot of personal time with each of these students. She readily obliged with her time on the Skype and when we went to California. We certainly feel previleged that we (parents and daughter) have had the opportunity to interaction with her. We do not think it is fair on our part to expect her to spend all her time teaching my daughter during her stay in the US. As I have mentioned in my earlier posting, we are quite happy with the training as well as the values that she imparted to us and to our daughter.
Facto says:
"Refer the posts to see for yourself how people agree that the AS Murali was ready to teach in 3hrs after he landed in USA.
Refer to posts that say at the practice sessions AS Murali was going around asking people what part of manodharma they are prepared in........why were Suguna and Thiagarajan's students not as prepared?"
As far as manodharma is concerned, we are of the opinion that it should come from within and cannot be taught. It depends not only on prior training but also on the creativity of the individual participant. Vidwans can only do so much in the limited time. I certainly did not and do not expect my daughter to sing at the level of a concert artist just after this limited amount of training. I am sure all of us realize that it takes a lot of sadhana to have such a level of maturity and is not going to happen with just six months of training.
Facto says:
"Refer to posts in this thread and a related thread under Kutcheri review for the same where a parent of a non-participant says they took classes from Thiagarajan.....further fact check to see the time whiled away at the cost of those thatpaid $1500 for the same."
I am sure most parents agree that money is not an issue at all; rather, it is the opportunity/previlege to have been instructed by great Vidwans of our current generation and to have interactions with them. It is a memory that all of us (children/parents) cherish for years to come.
Facto says:
"Refer to the original posts that said that the vocal students were not so impressive even when they got the 1 minute to shine in the same thread."
While everyone is entitled to their opinion regarding this concert, it is the spirit and efforts of the children that were impressive.
Facto says:
"Refer to the thread which said a students father was helping with IT for recordings........FACT CHECK - why do you need recordings when your assigned so called vidwan/vidushi does his/her job.........fact in itself that they did nothing........."
Please see my response above.
Facto says:
"Refer to replies to this thread only from east coast.........."
Please note that I responded from Texas (it may not have been clear from the posting number 39 in this thread) but should have been amply clear that our ward was assigned to Vidushi Suguna Purushottaman.
Facto says:
"Bottom line - since these two failed in their job, the one's that were trained could be in the limelight at the cost of the rest."
Facto seems to imply that the failure/success of a Vidwan only depends on whether the assigned students were in the limelight during the concert. It is such a narrow view of looking at the whole venture and certainly judging eminent artists. It is such a dangerous view to take because it underplays so many other crucial factors such as the prior training of the students etc. Intangible factors such as the values (such as the standards that one sets for oneself in terms of learning) imparted by the artist and the camaraderie amongst peers are more important than just being in limelight.
Facto says:
"The attempt to introduce new concepts is all fine and great, organizers did not mean to neglect the two regions in the USA, however, it happened and so it was pointed out."
Again, as I mentioned, I am from Texas and we certainly feel previleged to be a part of this venture and to have gotten a chance to interact with Suguna maami and other reputed artists of our time.
Facto says:
"Read all the posts in this thread and the related thread in this forum and you will conclude that Facto's facts were 100% true"
What more can I say about the veracity of your statement (unless of course, one starts questioning what is meant by truth)?
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rrao13
- Posts: 88
- Joined: 02 Aug 2006, 21:01
There was another thread on this topic and I had posted the following remarks there. I am copying it here, for whatever it is worth.
Here is a comment from the father of a son who has not participated in the training (and therefore the inaugural concert). Keeping in mind, that it was a pilot program and the first such inaugural concert, I believe everything went off very well - at least from what I heard. I also believe that the professionals did a fine job. I am proud to say that my son learns Flute from Ms. Suneetha Grandhi in Detroit and when Shri Thyagarajan visited Detroit several weeks before the Clevaland Aradhana, he spent a lot of time with the children. He was truly encouraging and was so focused to train the children. I am fairly certain that the other professionals in other areas were of equal disposition in terms of demeanor, efforts, skills, eagerness to train the children.
I think it is unfair to say that the professionals were commercially motivated. Having interacted with a few of them, I sincerely believe that their love of the art and their interest in perpetuating the art-form is the primary driving factor. Everything has a price tag attached to it - which again is fair.
We, the NRI's are truly blessed to have the services of the professionals from India.
Here is a comment from the father of a son who has not participated in the training (and therefore the inaugural concert). Keeping in mind, that it was a pilot program and the first such inaugural concert, I believe everything went off very well - at least from what I heard. I also believe that the professionals did a fine job. I am proud to say that my son learns Flute from Ms. Suneetha Grandhi in Detroit and when Shri Thyagarajan visited Detroit several weeks before the Clevaland Aradhana, he spent a lot of time with the children. He was truly encouraging and was so focused to train the children. I am fairly certain that the other professionals in other areas were of equal disposition in terms of demeanor, efforts, skills, eagerness to train the children.
I think it is unfair to say that the professionals were commercially motivated. Having interacted with a few of them, I sincerely believe that their love of the art and their interest in perpetuating the art-form is the primary driving factor. Everything has a price tag attached to it - which again is fair.
We, the NRI's are truly blessed to have the services of the professionals from India.
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rskumar
- Posts: 6
- Joined: 21 May 2007, 00:01
Dear mri_fan,
1. None of my postings were intended as arguments/defense. The language was intended to be harsh to those 2 people who chose to insult everyone in one go without providing/verifying facts. The smileys were clearly intended to convey the message to them. Hence I have not used it here in this response.
It is surprising to see that you guys with "good intent", firmly believe that the best way to make the organizers understand to have course corrections in such an exercise is to get on a blog like this with hidden identities and ridicule ONE and ALL
2. I wonder why you guys are shying away from clear offers that I made to connect with me / or other parents; to provide details outside the blog - If the initial response was focused on criticizing the "process" than "people" (you did not even spare the kids!!) or if you had chosen to present facts with good alternative ways of correcting the same - every one of us would have enjoyed it and embraced it.
It is indeed funny that you have made a choice to attack me without knowing me enough, while prescribing that I should not send a strong message when some of these folks chose to make a mockery of the event/initial responses from others. May be you feel insulted even without any direct reference by me about you or your character ? May be you are incapable of discussing anything (since you have been ignoring each and every offer made to you along with the initial responses) - and instead are focused on prescribing to others to take the high moral ground ! Give me a break !
3. If you are seriously interested in knowing whether I am upset/ insulted/cool headed or not, please pick up a phone and have a conversation and stop following these two in passing judgments without facts and using masked identities on a public forum. Alternatively, you may want to talk to people who know me and have interacted with me very well. You may also want to do more research on other forums, where people had vented out their feelings/disappointment and expressed their opinions which was not necessarily favorable for Sharanya. They did not get any rejoinder / any response from any one in my family because they did not cross their limits in making SWEEPING personal allegations! Communicate with me directly - and I will connect you with folks who have been organizing competitions and events in N.A for decades. Sharanya has won and lost prizes in these places over the past 10years, there are times where we have been pained to see her lose though we had enough evidence that she was the best and there was a bad judgment on the part of some folks. They will vouch for the conduct of our family - not a single word was spoken in public about other KIDS/or their parents/or the organizers/ or the teachers/ or the event or the judgment - again if you are keen to know the facts/else you can continue to ignore and do what you have been doing !
Me and my family have grown up doing public service for over 35+ years and are well aware/trained to take public ciriticism as long as they are criticism- not personal attacks questioning the integrity of the people who sacrifice many things in VOLUNTEERING to do public service with hard labor - Give it a decent shot in this forum and you can experience it yourself first hand.
4. Facto and Murukavi would have been better off, if they had read Newton's 3 rd law (for every action , there is an equal and opposite reaction) before resorting to / continuing to adopt such tactics of maligning people without facts (you can read the latest rejoinder by the parent from Texas who has taken pains to write such a lengthy response;point by point). I do not need to be the voice of 30kids/their parents as they all have spoken for themselves; against their initial wish to give a response in this public forum- simply because they are shocked. I also have email responses from other regions (now that srikrishna has clarified that Texas is not in East Coast!!); students from other teachers and let us not ignore the response earlier on from a participant/parent from West Coast (taught by Suguna teacher) and another participant/parent (taught by Thyagarajan Sir) again not from East Coast !!
Hope this helps.
Kumar
1. None of my postings were intended as arguments/defense. The language was intended to be harsh to those 2 people who chose to insult everyone in one go without providing/verifying facts. The smileys were clearly intended to convey the message to them. Hence I have not used it here in this response.
It is surprising to see that you guys with "good intent", firmly believe that the best way to make the organizers understand to have course corrections in such an exercise is to get on a blog like this with hidden identities and ridicule ONE and ALL
2. I wonder why you guys are shying away from clear offers that I made to connect with me / or other parents; to provide details outside the blog - If the initial response was focused on criticizing the "process" than "people" (you did not even spare the kids!!) or if you had chosen to present facts with good alternative ways of correcting the same - every one of us would have enjoyed it and embraced it.
It is indeed funny that you have made a choice to attack me without knowing me enough, while prescribing that I should not send a strong message when some of these folks chose to make a mockery of the event/initial responses from others. May be you feel insulted even without any direct reference by me about you or your character ? May be you are incapable of discussing anything (since you have been ignoring each and every offer made to you along with the initial responses) - and instead are focused on prescribing to others to take the high moral ground ! Give me a break !
3. If you are seriously interested in knowing whether I am upset/ insulted/cool headed or not, please pick up a phone and have a conversation and stop following these two in passing judgments without facts and using masked identities on a public forum. Alternatively, you may want to talk to people who know me and have interacted with me very well. You may also want to do more research on other forums, where people had vented out their feelings/disappointment and expressed their opinions which was not necessarily favorable for Sharanya. They did not get any rejoinder / any response from any one in my family because they did not cross their limits in making SWEEPING personal allegations! Communicate with me directly - and I will connect you with folks who have been organizing competitions and events in N.A for decades. Sharanya has won and lost prizes in these places over the past 10years, there are times where we have been pained to see her lose though we had enough evidence that she was the best and there was a bad judgment on the part of some folks. They will vouch for the conduct of our family - not a single word was spoken in public about other KIDS/or their parents/or the organizers/ or the teachers/ or the event or the judgment - again if you are keen to know the facts/else you can continue to ignore and do what you have been doing !
Me and my family have grown up doing public service for over 35+ years and are well aware/trained to take public ciriticism as long as they are criticism- not personal attacks questioning the integrity of the people who sacrifice many things in VOLUNTEERING to do public service with hard labor - Give it a decent shot in this forum and you can experience it yourself first hand.
4. Facto and Murukavi would have been better off, if they had read Newton's 3 rd law (for every action , there is an equal and opposite reaction) before resorting to / continuing to adopt such tactics of maligning people without facts (you can read the latest rejoinder by the parent from Texas who has taken pains to write such a lengthy response;point by point). I do not need to be the voice of 30kids/their parents as they all have spoken for themselves; against their initial wish to give a response in this public forum- simply because they are shocked. I also have email responses from other regions (now that srikrishna has clarified that Texas is not in East Coast!!); students from other teachers and let us not ignore the response earlier on from a participant/parent from West Coast (taught by Suguna teacher) and another participant/parent (taught by Thyagarajan Sir) again not from East Coast !!
Hope this helps.
Kumar
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mri_fan
- Posts: 382
- Joined: 15 Aug 2006, 22:12
Dear Mr. Kumar,
1) Show me where those two people insulted everyone. I've read what they wrote several times. Facto mentioned some things he/she heard went well and somethings that he/she heard didn't well. The poster went too far in personally naming the children, including your daughter. That was unnecessary. Also unnecesary in Facto's post was the comment about the teachers, and hopefully Factor will apologize/alter his comments based on what other people (like the Texas poster and others) have said. Murukavi's post was just a sarcastic response to your blowhard comments, so I doubt that was the reason for your presence on this forum.
2) I personally don't care to extend this debate to connect you to other parents since I am in contact with several of the participants. I know that you sent an email to everyone in the group informing them about this posting and I applaud your efforts to do that. How many people have responded with as much outrage as you? I'm sure many people were upset by it, but does everyone share your raw anger that you seem to be bringing to this debate? You said
"
If the initial response was focused on criticizing the "process" than "people" (you did not even spare the kids!!) or if you had chosen to present facts with good alternative ways of correcting the same - every one of us would have enjoyed it and embraced it."
I'll assume you didn't mean me, but instead the one person who said something that he/she shouldn't have. I agree with your point almost entirely. You speak of facts but I'm like to see your "facts" about % voice lost (from your OP), and I'll wait for that before I trust you know what facts are.
I've met you sir, and that's what I'm posting now. You've come across as a reasonable person in that past, and that's why your posting here have troubled me. I don't think you appreciate how you are coming off in this argument, and since you've decided to be so confrontational through this entire debate, I'm hoping to help you adjust your style of rhetoric.
May be you feel insulted even without any direct reference by me about you or your character ? May be you are incapable of discussing anything (since you have been ignoring each and every offer made to you along with the initial responses) - and instead are focused on prescribing to others to take the high moral ground ! Give me a break !
3. The judgements that I've made have been entirely based on what You have written, and have little to do with anything posted by the other two. You too were over-the line in your response. My interactions with you have been limited, but I know many families that know you as well. I probably should ask them about you, since that's what you're asking me to do, and I'll be sure to let you know what they tell me.
Yes, I';m sure you're daughter is a budding singer. I've never heard her sing, but maybe I will one of these days. But when you say something like the following, you really come across as arrogant:
Sharanya has won and lost prizes in these places over the past 10years, there are times where we have been pained to see her lose though we had enough evidence that she was the best and there was a bad judgment on the part of some folks.
I understand that you are parents who want your daugther to do well...but unless you are a judge, how are you to decide whether your daughter was the best in a competition. Thinking that the reason why your daughter lost was because of the judges, and not possiblly because there MIGHT be some singers that just sang better or had been trained longer or sang what a judge especially likes or any of 10's of other reasons that could matter. That's dangerous logic on your part. Like I said, I'll contact some people who may know you better, but do you really expect a pat on the back for not speaking in public about your daughter losing?
Please tell me these great "facts" that I've been ignoring. I'd really like to know. And what have I done/written that has ignored the "facts"? There haven't been too many facts from you at all. The parent from Texas refuted much of what Factor said, and that's good to know, but tell me what facts you have brought that I am missing?
I understand that since your daughter was attacked on this forum, you fell attacked as well, and I can sympathize. But where was your volunteering record attacked? No one said anything attacking you personally as far as I can tell. maybe I'm missing something.
4) Whether you need to or not, you are posting as a member of this 30 person group, and what you say reflects on all of them, whether you like it or not. I said that as a word of advice for you to maintain a little more composure. Murukavi's post was entirely sarcastic and was only brought about by your lack of composure in your first post. Perhaps other people from the group will start speaking out more on this forum, but that doesn't seem necessary. Much of what Factor has said has been disproven, and I think people agree that the kid's names sholdn't have been posted. There isn't much of a debate here except for the sake of debate, and I'll leave you with that.
Here's what I think:
Teachers did a good job, but there were some complaints.
Some violin training was given, but not what the students expected (TN K, or at least a violinst, as knowledgeable at Thiyagarajan may be, I bet they would have preferred a violin teacher).
The kids performed well, some may have felt slighted in their chance, but that's not known for sure. Parents tend to exaggerated children's complaints, so we don;t know. I didn;t get to see the concert, so I don't know how things went, except for this forum, but I'd like to see it before I could say anything about that.
Regards, and in jest!
Hope this helps you!
1) Show me where those two people insulted everyone. I've read what they wrote several times. Facto mentioned some things he/she heard went well and somethings that he/she heard didn't well. The poster went too far in personally naming the children, including your daughter. That was unnecessary. Also unnecesary in Facto's post was the comment about the teachers, and hopefully Factor will apologize/alter his comments based on what other people (like the Texas poster and others) have said. Murukavi's post was just a sarcastic response to your blowhard comments, so I doubt that was the reason for your presence on this forum.
2) I personally don't care to extend this debate to connect you to other parents since I am in contact with several of the participants. I know that you sent an email to everyone in the group informing them about this posting and I applaud your efforts to do that. How many people have responded with as much outrage as you? I'm sure many people were upset by it, but does everyone share your raw anger that you seem to be bringing to this debate? You said
"
If the initial response was focused on criticizing the "process" than "people" (you did not even spare the kids!!) or if you had chosen to present facts with good alternative ways of correcting the same - every one of us would have enjoyed it and embraced it."
I'll assume you didn't mean me, but instead the one person who said something that he/she shouldn't have. I agree with your point almost entirely. You speak of facts but I'm like to see your "facts" about % voice lost (from your OP), and I'll wait for that before I trust you know what facts are.
I've met you sir, and that's what I'm posting now. You've come across as a reasonable person in that past, and that's why your posting here have troubled me. I don't think you appreciate how you are coming off in this argument, and since you've decided to be so confrontational through this entire debate, I'm hoping to help you adjust your style of rhetoric.
May be you feel insulted even without any direct reference by me about you or your character ? May be you are incapable of discussing anything (since you have been ignoring each and every offer made to you along with the initial responses) - and instead are focused on prescribing to others to take the high moral ground ! Give me a break !
3. The judgements that I've made have been entirely based on what You have written, and have little to do with anything posted by the other two. You too were over-the line in your response. My interactions with you have been limited, but I know many families that know you as well. I probably should ask them about you, since that's what you're asking me to do, and I'll be sure to let you know what they tell me.
Yes, I';m sure you're daughter is a budding singer. I've never heard her sing, but maybe I will one of these days. But when you say something like the following, you really come across as arrogant:
Sharanya has won and lost prizes in these places over the past 10years, there are times where we have been pained to see her lose though we had enough evidence that she was the best and there was a bad judgment on the part of some folks.
I understand that you are parents who want your daugther to do well...but unless you are a judge, how are you to decide whether your daughter was the best in a competition. Thinking that the reason why your daughter lost was because of the judges, and not possiblly because there MIGHT be some singers that just sang better or had been trained longer or sang what a judge especially likes or any of 10's of other reasons that could matter. That's dangerous logic on your part. Like I said, I'll contact some people who may know you better, but do you really expect a pat on the back for not speaking in public about your daughter losing?
Please tell me these great "facts" that I've been ignoring. I'd really like to know. And what have I done/written that has ignored the "facts"? There haven't been too many facts from you at all. The parent from Texas refuted much of what Factor said, and that's good to know, but tell me what facts you have brought that I am missing?
I understand that since your daughter was attacked on this forum, you fell attacked as well, and I can sympathize. But where was your volunteering record attacked? No one said anything attacking you personally as far as I can tell. maybe I'm missing something.
4) Whether you need to or not, you are posting as a member of this 30 person group, and what you say reflects on all of them, whether you like it or not. I said that as a word of advice for you to maintain a little more composure. Murukavi's post was entirely sarcastic and was only brought about by your lack of composure in your first post. Perhaps other people from the group will start speaking out more on this forum, but that doesn't seem necessary. Much of what Factor has said has been disproven, and I think people agree that the kid's names sholdn't have been posted. There isn't much of a debate here except for the sake of debate, and I'll leave you with that.
Here's what I think:
Teachers did a good job, but there were some complaints.
Some violin training was given, but not what the students expected (TN K, or at least a violinst, as knowledgeable at Thiyagarajan may be, I bet they would have preferred a violin teacher).
The kids performed well, some may have felt slighted in their chance, but that's not known for sure. Parents tend to exaggerated children's complaints, so we don;t know. I didn;t get to see the concert, so I don't know how things went, except for this forum, but I'd like to see it before I could say anything about that.
Regards, and in jest!
Hope this helps you!
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rskumar
- Posts: 6
- Joined: 21 May 2007, 00:01
Dear mri_fan,
1. Appreciate your effort here and will be more than glad to reciprocate, as follows -
(a) I do not expect any apologies from anyone as I have achieved my goal of giving the concerned folks a taste of their own medicine. Their posting is history for me and I have moved on
(b) For the sake of clarity - Facto certainly went over the line on questioning several people's integrity. Murukavi's comments were not short either - again - your knowledge about me is right - I am very reasonable and have not changed one bit. Taking public criticism by my stride is in my blood - it does not bother me one bit - hence there was never any anger/flame as it was getting described here. Intent was very clear - to give a dose of one's own medicine so that the conversation is steered in the right direction and focus on process than people's integrity.
(c) Again for the records - I do not act based on how others act. But since you have asked this Q - yes, everyone responded back with outrage may be with the exception of one who did not even consider it worth responding on this forum. You should have known that since you have kept yourself reasonably informed.
2. Coming to the aspect of facts to be presented by me - I am reiterating what I have said again and again - contact me directly and I will ensure you will get all the information that I have. I do not believe public forums should be used to malign people or pass judgment about them or the events they organize. Comments/Feedabcks with good intent are well received by the concerned person/organization when given in person in a transparent manner. We can use public forums to brainstrom ideas/debate alternatives / merits-demerits of such experimentation of such new ideas/ potential outcome/impact, draw suggestions for improvement that could be neatly presented to the concerned folks where they see value in such inputs - because one fundamental aspect to organizations like CTAF is that they are non-profitable, voluntary and with an intent to do well to achieve their mission - and I am aware of organizations that do not go by the norms.
3. Having said this - I would urge you not to lean too much into having your own interpretations - on my comments about Sharanya losing or winning (reference to the entire episode). Again, logic is not something where you selectively take things out of context and come to conclusions - most important aspect of logic and analytical thinking is to gather data from as many sources as possible, give them due weightage, validate your input data back with the source before you get to become the judge and resort to passing judgment. I would have appreciated if you had followed the process before adding more presumptions into the argument. As you rightly said - a little bit of trust and respect can save a lot of trouble for all of us. So, I would strongly advise you to follow-on with your comments of talking to more people about me or my family- as far as our public conduct is concerned - you will have enough feedback to know how much we respect every kid/parent/teacher/organizer and how many times we have vented out our feelings/disappointment like what I have seen here (Do you seriously think I was waiting for this day to get your pat on the back for my decisions/actions ?) You have every right to ignore many aspects of my comments here and form conclusions like "arrogant" or "dangerous logic" etc which are harsh words by any dictionary - but let me say this to put the analysis in the right perspective -
(a) Reference to win and loss was made to showcase that we are well aware of these things being part and parcel of the game
(b) those who know us would also know we have been actively participating in these places for 10 years - fact brought out to highlight that we are not drawing conclusions about our conduct based on one or two events but a mixed bag of wins and losses which has been taken in the right spirit
(c) It would suffice to say that for the event referred - my evidence is all the judges who gave their decision in Sharanya's favor and in their excitement came and informed us ahead of the announcement . Later on, one of the organizing committee member came and apologized to us explaining what transpired leading to the change of decision by the committee (which was the reference made by me - "bad judgment by some folks" - but you were quick to interpret that I said " bad judges/judging") as they never denied the fact that Sharanya won it on merit - decision to change was being made under pressure to encourage visiting kids.
So, no need to add more assumptions that takes the arguments/facts way out of the context. It is really quite simple, if the process is followed.
3. I will patiently wait for you to contact me to get all the facts and analysis (answers to your queries) directly so that we can let the forum be used for the intended purpose. Not to worry, I will also give you complete authorization in writing to publish the exchange of information - if you deem it appropriate and a necessary value add to this forum.
It would be very useful to understand that the responsibility of folks who want to take upon themselves the role of critics/public eye is much more than the organizers, volunteers, teachers, kids or parents !
Accepting your regards and reciprocating the same (should I say in jest ? No, let me differentiate) - seriously !!
Kumar
1. Appreciate your effort here and will be more than glad to reciprocate, as follows -
(a) I do not expect any apologies from anyone as I have achieved my goal of giving the concerned folks a taste of their own medicine. Their posting is history for me and I have moved on
(b) For the sake of clarity - Facto certainly went over the line on questioning several people's integrity. Murukavi's comments were not short either - again - your knowledge about me is right - I am very reasonable and have not changed one bit. Taking public criticism by my stride is in my blood - it does not bother me one bit - hence there was never any anger/flame as it was getting described here. Intent was very clear - to give a dose of one's own medicine so that the conversation is steered in the right direction and focus on process than people's integrity.
(c) Again for the records - I do not act based on how others act. But since you have asked this Q - yes, everyone responded back with outrage may be with the exception of one who did not even consider it worth responding on this forum. You should have known that since you have kept yourself reasonably informed.
2. Coming to the aspect of facts to be presented by me - I am reiterating what I have said again and again - contact me directly and I will ensure you will get all the information that I have. I do not believe public forums should be used to malign people or pass judgment about them or the events they organize. Comments/Feedabcks with good intent are well received by the concerned person/organization when given in person in a transparent manner. We can use public forums to brainstrom ideas/debate alternatives / merits-demerits of such experimentation of such new ideas/ potential outcome/impact, draw suggestions for improvement that could be neatly presented to the concerned folks where they see value in such inputs - because one fundamental aspect to organizations like CTAF is that they are non-profitable, voluntary and with an intent to do well to achieve their mission - and I am aware of organizations that do not go by the norms.
3. Having said this - I would urge you not to lean too much into having your own interpretations - on my comments about Sharanya losing or winning (reference to the entire episode). Again, logic is not something where you selectively take things out of context and come to conclusions - most important aspect of logic and analytical thinking is to gather data from as many sources as possible, give them due weightage, validate your input data back with the source before you get to become the judge and resort to passing judgment. I would have appreciated if you had followed the process before adding more presumptions into the argument. As you rightly said - a little bit of trust and respect can save a lot of trouble for all of us. So, I would strongly advise you to follow-on with your comments of talking to more people about me or my family- as far as our public conduct is concerned - you will have enough feedback to know how much we respect every kid/parent/teacher/organizer and how many times we have vented out our feelings/disappointment like what I have seen here (Do you seriously think I was waiting for this day to get your pat on the back for my decisions/actions ?) You have every right to ignore many aspects of my comments here and form conclusions like "arrogant" or "dangerous logic" etc which are harsh words by any dictionary - but let me say this to put the analysis in the right perspective -
(a) Reference to win and loss was made to showcase that we are well aware of these things being part and parcel of the game
(b) those who know us would also know we have been actively participating in these places for 10 years - fact brought out to highlight that we are not drawing conclusions about our conduct based on one or two events but a mixed bag of wins and losses which has been taken in the right spirit
(c) It would suffice to say that for the event referred - my evidence is all the judges who gave their decision in Sharanya's favor and in their excitement came and informed us ahead of the announcement . Later on, one of the organizing committee member came and apologized to us explaining what transpired leading to the change of decision by the committee (which was the reference made by me - "bad judgment by some folks" - but you were quick to interpret that I said " bad judges/judging") as they never denied the fact that Sharanya won it on merit - decision to change was being made under pressure to encourage visiting kids.
So, no need to add more assumptions that takes the arguments/facts way out of the context. It is really quite simple, if the process is followed.
3. I will patiently wait for you to contact me to get all the facts and analysis (answers to your queries) directly so that we can let the forum be used for the intended purpose. Not to worry, I will also give you complete authorization in writing to publish the exchange of information - if you deem it appropriate and a necessary value add to this forum.
It would be very useful to understand that the responsibility of folks who want to take upon themselves the role of critics/public eye is much more than the organizers, volunteers, teachers, kids or parents !
Accepting your regards and reciprocating the same (should I say in jest ? No, let me differentiate) - seriously !!
Kumar
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rajumds
- Posts: 715
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 11:16
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rskumar
- Posts: 6
- Joined: 21 May 2007, 00:01
Dear Moderator,
I subscribe to your views above.As outlined in all my responses, I have requested time and again - the folks who commenced this thread, compelling us to register and respond - to contact me via emails. Appreciate your patience and apologize the inconvenience caused to you and other contributors who have been regulars to this forum
Kumar
I subscribe to your views above.As outlined in all my responses, I have requested time and again - the folks who commenced this thread, compelling us to register and respond - to contact me via emails. Appreciate your patience and apologize the inconvenience caused to you and other contributors who have been regulars to this forum
Kumar