Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

To teach and learn Indian classical music
ganesh_mourthy
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

vasanthakokilam wrote: BTW, can you summarize your lesson/technique one more time? It is spread over several posts. It will be good to know for me and others to do it strictly as you say so we can evaluate the results.
VK

I was going through the whole thing and it is not scattered. In fact there is not much except the two post where I have explained some and we have not progressed, or at least no feedbacks. If you want I can cut paste those two posts.

There was a lot of blah blah ( all useful though) and it seemed to you like we discussed a lot of methodologies.

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by vasanthakokilam »

G_M, yes please. cut and paste them if they are not too long or just point to those two posts. Thanks.

ganesh_mourthy
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

Just the two posts below where I have given some points. If we let me know how you fare with the poorvangam then we will move on to other techniques. Patience pays.

...............................................................................................

VK,

You make the same mistake I did. I know that along the way there would be swipes on our methodologies but that is welcome too. Here we are operating for a level where swara deciphering is a problem in spite of many years of listening.

S G P S . Your attempt could be little irritating if you are not able to make it right and naturally you wont, particularly if you are not learning the them religiously. I remember that in the intial days , I tried this pattern and it would seem right at one time , then the ga3 would be at ma1 and sometimes at ga2 . and again the Pa slips and the whole thing goes awry.

To come over this , all that I did was ( though some would disagree) , sing a few times everyday to a boring degree , just the lower octave checking Sa and PA several times. You could sing the whole aro - avaro in between so that you don't dissect it from the utharanga part altogether in your mind. . I found the Ma2 easier as it was just below pa. R1 easy if you can get hold of Sa . then work slowly to r2 and r2g2 combination having Sa as base. So you are just going to focus on one note only until you get that right. This just means if I want to focus on r2 , I could chose the notes Sa ri2 ma1 Pa and but sing aloud r2 at least 60% and 40% the rest until I feel I could make the distance of r2 from sa and Pa. I have listed some examples below.

1. Ma2 with the help of Pa ( this was easy for me, as well all those who tried ( actually we experimented within ourselves) )
2.ma1 with the help of Pa. You might take a while but it totally depends on how you have developed your earlier pattern. I was always going a little over Ma1 so for me it turned out Ma1+ a bit until I had to work on it.
3. r1 with the help of Sa ( this is easy ).
4.r2 with the help of Sa.
5.g2with the help of Sa and Ri2, after only good grip of Ri2. Try coming down to g2 from Pa. I was always at ga2+ initially and this was bit of a challenge at speed. I had also problem with Pa ga2 r2 g2 pa at speed and worked on the clarity slowly .
6.g3 with the help of M1
Then probably you can make your own combination phrases using these notes .
You can alter this to your intuition and your logic

Similarly you should do this for Utharaangam which is less of a combination.

Once both of these are separately done , then you could have Pa as a constant and work around it.

Later perhaps skip the Pa and sing the Pa less raagas.

Use something like a singing tutor to constantly check your notes and have some virtual keyboard handy.

So I would recommend Poorvangam for 10 days ( 20 min) with all the combinations and Utharaangam for 10 days with all the combinations. You will be amazed at your sudden control in note control. Once you have achieved this you could try Sa ri, Sa ma , sa da, sa d2, or whatever. Try it and see for yourself. This is key to next level of swara deciphering.

PS . Rasikas, this is a method we are experimenting for those who do not want to learn the conventional way , yet want to build a good swara control. Those who might have learnt the music religiously and conventionally would find it silly and funny.


Hi VK

I will summarize the whole thing.

The swaram quest is an app . One of our fellow Rasikas has introduced it in another post. It is an android app.

Singing it in various speed is good. Sa to Pa. But as you sing , once you seem to get some control , try the nokku , slide and all that. See if you can do the ri2 of charukesi or so. It is a soft Sa to ga3 to ri2 to ga3 to r2. In simple when you seem to get control of the the straight notes ( unoscillated) , then try all that the melakartha that has sa , ri2, ga3, m1, pa. So you will do the jaaru , nokku , kampitam and all. Just try you could do Pa as Pamapa i.e Pa to ma to pa . Do all these at mathyama kaala. Do these with the singing tutor software or the likes. Eyes opened first looking at the graph and then eyes closed.

Above all , focus and perseverance. Procrastinators gets nowhere. I used to be the no 1 at it. Learning through hindsight.

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Let me restructure it a bit and post it the next post by taking out conversational stuff like 'you make the same mistake I did etc' and separating specific advice and tips to a separate section so as to focus on the method. See if I misstated anything. To be sure, my restructuring is just that, the content and method are entirely yours. I have just moved things around a bit. Feel free to ask me to change things. I will mark this as "G_M method for Swara Deciphering - Part 1"

I will ask my own questions if any separately.

BTW, this is not just for me. Others, please participate, try G_M's technique and provide feedback to him so he can tweak his method. Above all, the benefits are all yours even if only 50% successful.

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by vasanthakokilam »

This is a restructured version of the content that G_M has provided above. Please direct any questions, comments and appreciations to him.

G_M method for Swara Deciphering - Part 1

Introduction
This is a method for those people who have been listening to music for a while for whom swara deciphering is a problem. Rasikas, this is a method we are experimenting for those who do not want to learn the conventional way , yet want to build a good swara control. Those who might have learnt the music religiously and conventionally would find it silly and funny. And those who feel the need to impose the methods that are intended for performers and professionals, this is not the place. This is a light weight method that has worked for quite a few people and the objective is for others to try it and see if it works for them.

This is a method of the amateurs, by the amateurs and for the amateurs.

The Problem

Start with singing S G P S and try to get it right. It is not as easy as one may think. These attempts could be a little irritating if you are not able to get it right. Naturally you wont, particularly if you are not learning them religiously. Also it would seem right at one time , then the G3 would be at M1 and sometimes at G2 and again the Pa slips and the whole thing goes awry. To get a control of all this, the following method is what I used.

The Method
  • Sing a few times everyday to a boring degree
  • Sing several times Sa and Pa of the Madhya Sthayi to lay foundation on Poorvanga singing
  • You could sing the whole aro - avaro in between so that you don't dissect it from the utharanga part altogether in your mind.
  • Move on to other swaras in the Purvanga. M2 may be easier as it is just below P. R1 is easy if you can get hold of Sa . Then work slowly to R2 and R2G2 combination having S as base.
  • So the crux of this portion of the method is you are just going to focus on one note only until you get that right. This just means if I want to focus on R2 , I could chose the notes S R2 M1 P but sing aloud R2 at least 60% and 40% the rest until I feel I could make the distance of R2 from S and P. And then try combinations of two notes and so on
Examples of combinations
  1. M2 with the help of P( this was easy for me, as well all those who tried ( actually we experimented within ourselves) )
  2. M1 with the help of P. You might take a while but it totally depends on how you have developed your earlier pattern. I was always going a little over M1 so for me it turned out M1+ a bit until I had to work on it.
  3. R1 with the help of S( this is easy ).
  4. R2 with the help of S.
  5. G2 with the help of S and R2, only after good grip of R2. Try coming down to G2 from P. I was always at G2+ initially and this was bit of a challenge at speed. I had also problem with P G2 R2 G2 P at speed and worked on the clarity slowly .
  6. G3 with the help of M1
  7. You get the idea. You can make your combination of phrases.
  8. Alter this to your intution and your logic
  9. Repeat the above for utharAngam which is less in terms of combinations
  10. Once both of these are separately done, then you could have Pa as a constant and work around it
  11. Then skip P and sing P less phrases
A bit of speed change and gamakas
  • Singing it in various speed is good. S to P.
  • But as you sing, once you seem to get some control , try the nokku , slide and all that.
  • See if you can do the R2 of charukesi or so. It is a soft S to G3 to R2 to G3 to R2.
  • It is much easier when you get control of the the straight notes ( unoscillated)
  • Then try all the melakartha that has S, R2, G3, M1, P.
  • So you will do the jaaru , nokku , kampitam and all.
  • Try P as P M1 P i.e P to M1 to P.
  • Do all these at mathyama kaala.
Tips
  • Use apps like swaram quest or singing tutor to help you
  • Eyes opened first looking at the graph and then eyes closed.
  • Frequently check with a virtual keyboard to make sure you get it right.
  • Focus, consistency of practice and perseverance are the keys.
  • Procrastination will not get you anywhere
  • I would recommend Poorvangam for 10 days ( 20 min day) with all the combinations and Utharaangam for 10 days with all the combinations. You will be amazed at your sudden control of notes. Once you have achieved this you could try SR2, SM , SD1, SD2, or whatever. Try it and see for yourself. This is key to next level of swara deciphering.
  • When singing the notes make sure you keep your singing volume constant. If you are singing only for the sake of swara identification, you may go sloppy while singing and this is to be avoided as it may confuse your own grasp of notes. So consciously avoid the fluctuation in volume, going husky to strong . Simply put, modulations and change in volume intensity is to be avoided. This is very important for you to internalize each and every note so you can hit it on the point whenever you want to

ganesh_mourthy
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

VK

This is extra ordinary and what one called an organized writing . See I have such a handicap It did not even occur to me to summarize it this way. Now I will try to make important points as bullets , more nice worded , in between the blah blahs so we can always cut and paste.

The second point of yours , I think I made a mistake in writing. it should be ..

* Sing several times Sa and Pa of the Madhya Sthayi to lay foundation on Poorvanga singing.

Besides , VK have you tested any of the singing tutor or the likes. Surprisingly and very happily, I have noticed that nowadays my voice aligned so perfectly with the notes which used to be somewhat wobbly notes before. Whatever I have written down I am re experimenting . My notes are rather straight like a ruler when I check it with the software.

This goes under the TIPS section.

*When singing the notes make sure you keep your singing volume constant. If you are singing only for the sake of swara identification, you may go sloppy while singing and this is to be avoided as it may confuse your own grasp of notes. So consciously avoid the fluctuation in volume, going husky to strong . Simply put, modulations and change in volume intensity is to be avoided. This is very important for you to internalize each and every note so you can hit it on the point whenever you want to .

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by vasanthakokilam »

G_M, made those changes.

btw, I did not provide any specific feedback because I did not have any with respect to swara decipering itself. But then I noticed while restructuring that what you have covered so far is the first step and the next step is deciphering the details of which you have not covered yet.

There are quite a few success incidents with respect to the techniques as you laid out in part 1. A majority of them involve myself enjoying the effects when I hit the note right. Especially S M1 P M1 G3 . Those intervals are quite special and so consonant and pleasant sounding. These are all minuscule alright, but it provides for a disproportionately high satisfaction. For example, with tambura playing, sing S M and then go to P My P when it is perfect, it resonates with the tambura sound and the resulting effect is so satisfying. Same thing with G3, aligning my G3 with the swayambu G3 coming out of the Tambura. Awesome. ( I know others may be wondering what is the big deal with just these notes.. true but the pleasantness that comes out of those pure sounds is quite enjoyable ).

Now, specific to that you say, I did try the easy one R1. I tried singing out loud, S R1 M1 R1 S and asked someone who was with me what raga it is. 'Revathi' came the reply. Nice. I myself felt I hit the notes just right at that time. (it is not always the case of course which is why continuous practice is important). Then ventured a little bit more and sang N2 R1 S... N2 S R1 S.. N2 S R1 S.. N2 R1 S That also seemed to come out right, to them it sounded like veda mantra which is just how it will sound. Good bang for the buck. Small encouragements to get me going.

Similarly what you say about G2 is quite correct and jibes with my experience. May be it is the sivaranjani influence but when I sing P G2 it is easy to know just by feel if I hit the G2 right or not. That P-G2 is quite an exotic sound.

The thing I am noticing is, active and attentive listening to the minute details, letting the sound sink in and taste the full feeling each swara creates has a lot of benefits in itself and helps reproduce it on demand. I am still not great at it, still working on getting it right most of the time on first try. I am comfortable with C# sruthi and my G flute's lower P is C#. That is what I use to check the notes since that is easy for me to do rather than a virtual keyboard.

ganesh_mourthy
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

Hi VK

We will have a systematic progress to see how it works. As far as now you seem to be the only taker :).

Yeah I cannot tell just precisely how to find a note or swara. These are exercises to fasten from what I have done with some of my friends and it worked. Their discern is extraordinary now even to a level of micro tone.

We are not discussing a tangible form , but trying to make it more concrete and trying to add more shape. It is impossible to find techniques to identify the difference between the flavour of sambar or kozhambu or rasam , a foreigner absolutely cannot. But, we can. We can even say if it is a tradittional or a quick ready made one. But this latter identification comes out of more practice. When I go to buy frangrance the coffee seed that they give to smell to interrupt our confusion carrying over from brand to brand it very careful . Here we are discussing many such coffee aid. A rare few people are Nosers of the perfume industry.

The key for the practice moving from lower poorvanga to utharanga is to find notes and not a pattern. In my earlier times I could easy find the notes when Kaapi, desh, sivaranjani, revathi , madhuvanthi are were sung. But, there I was developing a sensitivity to pattern made notes but not notes per se. But , my interest grew when people were able to appreciate the notes in western music or more technical ones like the mouna raagam theme notes. That was totally flabbergasting to me. So what you are practicing now is perfect so far . But our of curiousity dont hastily move on . Dwell on Uttaranga a little longer. Try all micro tones , jaarus , nokkus, kampitams and all such patterns having some ragams in mind. If you feel the sa to pa is too limiting occassionally touch the dha or rarely even Ni, so you let yourself slowly unfold. It definitely works.

I understood a lot of scale shift from IR , all when I steadied the note concept.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSWTgRMHP4Q

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nShKJiF4mFc

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by vasanthakokilam »

>The key for the practice moving from lower poorvanga to utharanga is to find notes and not a pattern.


I have observed that you get a bit jittery whenever I talk about patterns. I understand that from your own experience it does not help with note identification.. A few points on that while I fully see that aspect.

1) If your point above is related to my 'revathi' remark, that was really still within your scheme and not pattern. The objective there is to get the easy one 'S R1' and also 'S N2' right, using S as the base. That is all still within the confines of your method. Revathi came into picture only as an application of it by bringing in M1. So there is no 'hastily moving on' but at the same time it is not easy to be very strictly confined to the narrow specifications of the method. But your point is well taken. Do not move on permanently even if you venture outside the limits!

2) It is too bad that in your observation focussing on the pattern is a problem. Because patterns are so much easier to reproduce and a lot of fun. We need to find a way to work that in. My thinking is not to make it the advanced level but to really start there since it is much easier.

3) But even in the confines of your focus on notes but by using two note pairs, I find it useful to get to that based on familiar patterns. Like I mentioned, I can check if my G2 is right by trying P G2 since I know how P G2 sounds. Similarly, even at a fundamental level, I find it easier to do S P ( if I have in mind the pattern S P. P M1 G3 R2 G3, M1, P, . That is etched in my memory from the navaragamalika varnam . I have that pattern in mind but just stop at S P. The benefit of this is, for me at least, I can hit that P from any kattai instinctively.

Point is, even while keeping the note as the primary goal, if a pattern is known, it seems to help in hitting the note. I can slow down singing the pattern to an extent that the focus is on the note and I can attentively listen to the individual note sound even when it is part of the pattern.
I am not sure if that is going to mess up your method. (But I may not be the ideal test case since I know the patterns before I know the notes. Those who do not know the patterns may be able to do your method quite religiously, so there is still a lot of benefit to specifying and keeping it to the method)

4)This is something that just occurred to me. I have a feeling you will like this from the point of view of 'note focus'. We will see. No pressure!!
Pattern is of course a bunch of notes and it is understandable the focus on the notes is not there. But let two patterns intersect at a common note. Then it brings in the 'note focus'. For example, consider these two patterns

1) S P, P M1 G3 R2.. G3 M1.. P... (from NRM varnam)

2) G3 M1 P.. M1 G3.. R2 G3 S... R2 G3... (MMI pattern)

Let us assume that we know to sing these two patterns without note level gyan.

Let the two patterns intersect. The familiarity is gone. For example, G3 occurs in both. So one intersection is

S P, P M G3 G3 M1 P.. M1 G3

My hypothesis is that this will bring about a focus on the note 'G3' ( the intersection point ) since you have to switch from one familiar pattern to the other at that point. The above two are quite rich in intersection points at R2 G3 M1 with S and P as anchors.

Just a thought..

ganesh_mourthy
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

All that is interesting.

But quickly , I think somewhere you greatly missed my point. If you are singing sa r1 ma pa and sounding like revathy you are making it right there. To be just too confined is too mundane and you cannot sustain at this age.

When you sing the pattern unplanned and it falls on revathy and you feel the bliss of revathy , it is a win win. Your note pattern falls suddenly in line with revathy and revathy is helping further to strengthen the notes ,vice versa.

This is the reason that I asked to take take a poorvanga of some raaga like charukesi and do all the nokku , straight note, asaivu,and make sure you get them right , so you can make out the notes however it is handled. But for a few times you should sing the straight note before moving on to that pattern with grammar. And while you start making the pattern with grammar of the note , the key is also to pay keen attention to the notes and be conscious of it. At the next level you can move on to pattern and notes . That is how big singers do. They don't just sing patterns alone , often they position themselves with notes .

So it is an alternative play. So what you are doing is right , but what I am saying is be conscious of the notes even if you are forming patterns with grammar. All that I meant was if you just can make a nice pattern .. like the one in kaapi . ga3 ma ni2 pa ga2 ga2 ri2 sa... I used to like it and I often used to hum and it sounded like kapi to me and others . But then I realized I was not doing the note right but tricking my mind and others with the pattern. patterns can trick your mind to believe. So conscious practice and conscious. melody.

Today I was practicing the madhuvanthi and then varali and I find it very hard sometimes with the shift it ga ri in speed though it is easy to mentally make it out.But these two ragams would greatly help in understanding the g1 and g2.

You last hypothesis is very important practice and gives more grip on a note. There are some raagams where just the poorvanga is so fulfilling with occasional extension. I used to enjoy charukesi and Naatai. One soft and the other majestic.

ganesh_mourthy
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

A quick question again. In my initial days sometimes I used to get confused of Pa for ma1 and vice versa and occasionally even Pa for dha2. It took some time to get over it. Is there anything you easily get confused with?

Besides, the below song ignited me for note deciphering. I did not seek help and I did all by myself those days. And then found out that .. Oh my! this is my fav raaga. Can you make out the raaga and the intial part is mostly in poorvanga. I am throwing more filmy music in because you will not take pattern for help ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAl7_PiZV9I

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Throw in filmy music at any time, especially like the one above.. What a great song! They know how to make attractive music with out bringing in any complexity. I will work on it. ( btw, my 'known' patterns are quite limited. Other than the two I mentioned, your kApi one is also a familiar one, then probably Ritigowlla lower octave stuff, a bit of Bowli and bits and pieces here and there. So not much beyond these few things)

About your other question, I am sure I have all the issues you had. Of late, I noticed that if I am not careful, I am distressed to find that my M1 is not quite right. Even more distessful is if my G3 is not right. That is when I know I have a lot of work to do. On the other hand, the pleasure I derive when I get the G3 right is disproportionate to the achievement!!

Ranganayaki
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by Ranganayaki »

My ideas on Swara recognition:

Swara recognition is not a thing to be learned, but developed. It's like a little miracle :) or a series of little miraculous triumphs.. I don't think you fixate on it to achieve it. You don't try to recognize R1, d2, g3 etc. You just recognize srgmpdns in whatever combination it occurs. You can sense the distance from the previous swara to later know which ri or which ga it is. People who hear swaras hear just ri ga ma in their heads, not r1,g2,m. An understanding of the interval might occur later.

The most important thing in my mind is to LISTEN with focus and intent and discipline. In Carnatic music, as everyone knows, all swaras are relative, and none can be identified without knowing the sound of Sa. Most beginners slip up right there, forgetting it and getting upset that they can't recognize anything. You need to close your eyes and listen to the sound of the tambura in a concert or in a recording. (It's really loud too these days in concerts :( ) The tambura goes pa- SA- SA- sa.. The upper sa being double the length of the other two notes makes it easier to identify all three notes. Always stay focused on the sa. This should be done for a few days without worrying about the other swaras, and during all parts of the concert or recording, as much as you can, as long as it is enjoyable and not too tiring. In just a few days, these three notes are fixed in your brain and are readily recognizable. The structure of our songs also adds to making this easily recognizable, and when the song or stanza ends on a note between these two, you think of it as Pa.

The next step would be to choose recordings that are in ragas that are very familiar, with large intervals between swaras, like Mohanam, shudda saveri, madhyamavati, hindolam, valaji and objectively know their arohanam and avarohanam. It would make sense to choose vidwans who do not sing with too many anuswaras or brighas and recordings that are not too fast. A slow alap or the slower part of the alap would be great. Sing the arohanam and avarohanam or think of it before you start listening. I would prefer an instrumental alap too in these early stages, as any syllables that are pronounced may interfere with the connection we need to make between swara sthanas and the swaras. It's a bit like the connection between word and meaning or like touch typing - thinking of the letter f every time we type it with the left index finger and using only the index fingre for the letter F make that connection happen. A pronounced syllable initially interferes with that activity of thinking and obstructs the making of a deep connection..

Once one of these ragas is chosen, the alap or instrumental song must be listened to very regularly with the tambura shruti constantly in your head, along with the awareness of the arohana and avarohana. I feel this would help.. This can be repeated over days with other ragas.

Once you are thrilled with your progress, you can introduce other ragas that are only slightly different from these, like hamsadhwani and distinguish its sound from Mohanam or like malayamarutham and valaji and you will begin to hear the ni of hamsadhwani distinctly because of your familiarity with mohanam's da which is missing, or the ri of Malayamarutham which is an intermediate addition to Valaji's sa-ga. It is important to THINK of these additions / substitutions when they occur by their names: ri or Ni, in the two new ragas.

Shankarabharanam is a great raga to begin with because of the substantial and equal spacing between notes, except for the ni-sa. Kalyani is a great ragam to juxtapose with Shankarabharanam to get a feel for the pratimadhyama.

I don't think one should fixate on which ri and which ga it is, with familiarity and practice and over years, you will be able to distinguish them. It would be impossible to tell them apart at the beginning stage. Also, r2 can be g1, the context is always important. At any given time, you only need to hear ri ga, sa ri ga in your head when you listen to the music.

This is for the basics.. listen more and more and it all gets nicely established and hopefully one day, I will hear "all" the swaras of that item Rsachi talked about, I hear about 70 percent. I don't think fast enough for some of it. I know that if I listened to it a few times, I will get it all, but I want it all to become impossible to miss :).
Last edited by Ranganayaki on 14 May 2015, 20:38, edited 1 time in total.

rshankar
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by rshankar »

Good one, Ranganayaki!

PS: Condolences re your guru!

Ranganayaki
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by Ranganayaki »

What! no.. hold on, who do you mean? I saw your condolences just half an hour ago and it was not my guru as you must know..

Ranganayaki
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by Ranganayaki »

I don't know how useful my ideas will be to anyone, or how valid my ideas. If there is anything good about that post, I dedicate it to the memory of my dear Guru, Sri Vaigal Gnanaskandan.

Ranganayaki
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by Ranganayaki »

VK and Ganesh Mourthy,
I'm sorry, I was rather clumsy in beginning my longer post above, and did not intend to interrupt your discussion. Please do go on.. I'm sorry that I was a kill-joy. I've edited my post to make it less rude - it was unintentional, but it was thoughtless.

Ranganayaki.

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Ranganaki, No problem, no need to be sorry, thanks for pitching in. I only read your post-edited version. Thanks for the detailed explanation, you have put in a lot of thought there. The way I relate to your method and G_M's method is his part 1 focusses on Swaras -> melody through singing and part 2 will deal with the deciphering, namely, Melody -> Swaras You have made quite a few good points and let me mull over them. I do have the sruthi box on when I think about this exercise and improving the swara deciphering skills. Listening to the S and P and the automatically generated intermediate swaras and synchronizing with them is indeed very pleasant. In that way, G3 is something nature automatically provides for us and it is great to sync and resonate with it.

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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

Ranganayaki, thanks for pitching in. VK? and I are happy that were are able to rope in someone. Are n't we, VK?

Ranganayaki , your concept is indeed good and it works from the perspective of carnatic music angle. But , one of my friends is able to pin point the notes even that of GNB and Ariyakudi without knowing the ragams. He does notknow much of carnatic. we adapt different ways to ..sanadhana dharma.
VK this is for you. Just for underrstanding .The key board cannot capture the nuances by S.Janaki and she is one of the best talents who beautified IRs creation without doubt.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zodNS444Jw

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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by vasanthakokilam »

G_M, of course yes. Happy indeed.

Thanks for that link. I will try to decode the first line or so and compare it with the video.

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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

VK

Even as we stroll along discussing various techniques I am wondering how a non carnatic ear would decipher notes. We so much harp around Sa PA sa. But you cannot even hear the Sa Pa sa in light music. My friend could make out the notes of any carnatic music but he is western musician . Though logicially he would lose precision at the gamakams, he is good most of the times. He was struggling with Ariyakudi and comfortable with MS and Radha Jayalakshmi. I can make out the notes quite well nowadays in light music or just any music and how do I do it and how do I fit it into any base note I don't know. This gives a spark in me that there is definitely a method other than our Sa Pa Sa Metrics. Let me think it over.

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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKg7kgnBf4g

even here I could listen to only the notes. No Sa Pa sa

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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by vasanthakokilam »

For you to name the notes you still need to fix the Sa somewhere right? And that 'somewhere' has to be built into the song itself, sans any external tambura reference. I have two thoughts

- If you hum the tune, it resolves to a note that feels like a S. I tried that for the above tune and at various stages it resolved to three different notes. If my sense of 'resolution' is right, then he may be shifting the 'key'? I do not really know. And what does it mean to 'resolve'? I do not know how to define it, it is more an internal process where you feel it. Of course, different people may resolve it to different notes. So for a CM ear, they may indeed feel it as different ragas in that case.

- I have read in western music sources that the 'tonic' (key) is the note around which the tone is centered or clustered. That is, Tonic is the tonal center. I never really understood what that means and how to actually figure out how to identify that tonal center and identify it as the 'Tonic' (sa). I guess the question here is, without reference to any notation, just by listening, how does one find the tonic (key) of a piece, including the shifts in key which is quite common place in western music.

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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

vasanthakokilam wrote: I guess the question here is, without reference to any notation, just by listening, how does one find the tonic (key) of a piece, including the shifts in key which is quite common place in western music.
VK

Indeed that beats me. I don't consciously look for a Sa but I think our mind after a point automatically takes a range as an octave and starts working on it. I don't even see that in western music they have no landing point of either of the sa. I am just wondering what will happen if we avoided this landing sa .. will it confuse our mind if we listened without the tambura.

Imagine , sri... vall..ee.. de...va...se...na...pa...the.

It goes like... ri ..ga...ma...pa.. ni..da...ni ...ri.. sa.

what if it is like ri ga ma pa ni da ni ri ga dodging the sa throughout in such ways. I guess it is easy for someone to get confused if the scale is not familiar nor the range of the voice.
I know we are Frankensteining a bit , but it is just interesting for a change.

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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by vasanthakokilam »

btw, at least with respect to CM, while such ambiguities are definitely possible, once the particular intonations and characteristic phrases are used which creates the idea of what raga it is, then we are done. Right? Because, once you identify a sequence of 'Sa less' notes as part of a raga phrase ( identification achieved through other coloring of the notes like specific oscillations and other gamakas and anuswaras ), then the identify of those notes to swaras are established which then working backwards you can get to the Shadjam.

I think this is the point Uday made a long while back when he demonstrated what is going on with Sruthi Bedam. I am sure he will correct me if I am misrepresenting his thoughts. ( the phenomenon with sruthi bedam is, the tambura is not switched off but still the artist can convey a different raga while still employing the same notes of the base raga)

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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

Yes , shruthi bedham is a very straight forward form. I am very comfortable with it. Pondering over what I wrote , the key phrases helps for carnatic. But,generally even if you get the notes wrong but can make right order and sequence and intervals then still the purpose is solved. In that case there is no absolute note but only absolute pitch. Probably with my CM trained ear I am attributing a range with some assumptions right away to any music that I listen to. That backs up my logic of understanding the notes of other genres of music.

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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by Ranganayaki »

ganesh_mourthy wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKg7kgnBf4g

even here I could listen to only the notes. No Sa Pa sa
GM, do you mean you don't start off by establishing sa pa sa?
vasanthakokilam wrote: - If you hum the tune, it resolves to a note that feels like a S. I tried that for the above tune and at various stages it resolved to three different notes. If my sense of 'resolution' is right, then he may be shifting the 'key'? I do not really know.
VK, this is a little also what I meant by discipline in listening. If it resolves to a note that feels like an S then you have to stick with that S and listen and see if the rest of the scale fits. Why did you feel like it resolved to a Sa? Because it was low, and he sort of settles there. If that is sa, you should be able to find the rest of the octave in with that Sa. The music may place some emphasis on other notes. But there is no key shift.
vasanthakokilam wrote: And what does it mean to 'resolve'? I do not know how to define it, it is more an internal process where you feel it. Of course, different people may resolve it to different notes. So for a CM ear, they may indeed feel it as different ragas in that case.
Yes in the very beginning, when you have absolutely no bearings you can't tell, but as you said, the music quickly "resolves" itself and you can tell where the tonic is. That would, for us, be our Sa.
vasanthakokilam wrote: I have read in western music sources that the 'tonic' (key) is the note around which the tone is centered or clustered. That is, Tonic is the tonal center. I never really understood what that means and how to actually figure out how to identify that tonal center and identify it as the 'Tonic' (sa). I guess the question here is, without reference to any notation, just by listening, how does one find the tonic (key) of a piece, including the shifts in key which is quite common place in western music.
VK, you do know what that means - the tonal center.. you found it when you felt the music resolved itself. If you imagine the music to be a downward rolling ball, it is where the ball naturally comes to rest, without leaving you feeling restless, or tense. It's that settled feeling. That's the tonal center. If you remain disciplined and don't refer to other emphatic notes and the music seems to settle always on your note, it is your tonic. If it doesn't fit over the whole octave, you will know that you need a more fitting tonic , and if there is a shift in the tonic, you will know too. In this piece the tonic appears at 0:18, 0:20, and if you think "sa" everytime that note is reached, it might help hear the note better. You don't think the tonic changes everytime another note gets emphasis.
Last edited by Ranganayaki on 18 May 2015, 11:45, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by Ranganayaki »

vasanthakokilam wrote: I have read in western music sources that the 'tonic' (key) is the note around which the tone is centered or clustered. That is, Tonic is the tonal center. I never really understood what that means and how to actually figure out how to identify that tonal center and identify it as the 'Tonic' (sa). I guess the question here is, without reference to any notation, just by listening, how does one find the tonic (key) of a piece, including the shifts in key which is quite common place in western music.
VK, the tonic is the reference note.. Major scales have the following intervals: whole, whole, half, whole, whole, whole, half (all the major scales)

This means Tonic, next whole note, next whole note, next half note, next whole note, next whole, next whole, and higher tonic.

This set of intervals translates to Shankarabharanam: Shadjam, chatushruti rishabham, antara gandharam, shudda madhyamam, panchamam, chatusruti daivatam, kaakali nishadham, Shadjam.

The tonic of the c major scale is C, the tonic of the E major scale is E, you start at E and play the same intervals from there, which means shadjam is at E and you keep the same intervals, always yielding shankarabharanam.

The tonic is the note which the other notes seem to carry you to in a melody. For example if you listen to Fur Elise (not major scale) which I chose because everyone is familiar with it, you can hear the tonic, which does not occur as conspicuously as in our songs, but it is there. Listen to the first 1:20 exactly of the following video and try to tell the tonic:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lkcvrxj0eLY

Once you have found it, keep it in your head, by repeatedly singing it or playing it on your flute and then play this note:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lkcvrxj0eLY

If they match, you've found the tonic.

The piece is in A minor, which means the tonic is A, which means it comes to rest on A, which is the pitch in the second link.
Last edited by Ranganayaki on 18 May 2015, 19:17, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by Ranganayaki »

ganesh_mourthy wrote:VK

Even as we stroll along discussing various techniques I am wondering how a non carnatic ear would decipher notes.

My son says his frame of reference is the scale. He cannot play anything I might sing if he doesn't figure the scale out.

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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

Yes , but that frame of references is what I want to understand. I have my c sharp always and try to sing whatever an MS sings or SPB sings. MS that I heard yesterday was at 5.5 and what SPG sang was at d sharp. The question is not why I am not immediately trying to align with their respective pitches and sing along but keep a constant c sharp. I know that trying to sing with MS may sound funny for a male , but that is what our brain should do. This beats my understanding of frame of reference.

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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by Ranganayaki »

GM, I don't think I follow.. Are you saying that no matter what key the ambient music is playing at, you always sing at C#? If that is true then the question certainly IS why you are not immediately trying to align with the singer and how why would keep a constant c#. Did I misunderstand you?

The frame of reference is the shruti.

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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by Ranganayaki »

When you say that your non carnatic friends can identify a note promptly, how do they express that identification? Is it by playing it on a piano, or do they tell you that it is an A or a G or an F? Obviously they don't hear srgmpdn.

Also I don't know what you mean by absolute pitch.. every note has a pitch.. whether that note gets to be a ri or not for example depends on the shruti, which is absolute, and on the context - is there a note imediately higher than it which would be lower than the shudda ma for that shruti. If there isn't one, then that note becomes a Ga. It is the Shruti which is the frame of reference in Carnatic Music and in the absence of an overt shruti drone, it is just the strength of the tonic that allows you to establish your frame of reference and then identify all swaras from there.

Can you explain your frame of reference problem more clearly?

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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Ranganayaki, What a pleasant exercise you have given me!! I will work on it and report back. In fact, just last evening I was recording my own example to illustrate my point with this 'resolution' but your exercise is better.

Just to re-focus my point, this is about when there is no background reference drone and how one figures out the tonic. I think you and I ( and G_M as well ) are in sync there.

I understand the concept of tonic, the intervals and the scale etc from a definitional point of view as you have provided. My discussion point is probably in the orthogonal dimension. It is more to understand the western music conception of 'tonal center' as an abstract ( and non subjective if I may ) definition for the concept of 'tonic'. I understand resolution as how we subjectively figure that out If the non subjective tonal center and resolution are one and the same thing, then one aspect of my question is answered. But I still want to know if there is really anything meaningful about the word 'center' that we may be missing. What is being 'centered'? In CM, we do not think of that resolution point as a 'center' but more a 'resting' point, which is approximately more to the edges/end/arudhi than the center. Do they really conceive it as a note around which melody revolves around? Meaning, center as in a fulcrum point on which things are balanced around which the melody revolves? I am writing all this to give an idea of my question about what they mean by that word 'center'.

Anyway, your example is a great way to figure out 'resolution' and see if that matches the actual tonic. I am on it.

In the meantime, I will let you and G_M work out the issue you two are discussing.

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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Ranganayaki, I listened to that piece. I never get tried of listening to that piece, there is so much going on there.

Yes I think I resolved that to A as the tonic. As you wrote, it is there but it is not as conspicuous as we are used to in CM. I need to try this on a few more examples to make sure I did not get influenced by you mentioning that the tonic is A.(I do not think so... ) I verified it with the sruthi box.

OK, so far so good. In these cases with no explicit drone, the sequence of notes themselves need to carry whatever is needed for the tonic resolution. I have been thinking that a a sequence of 5 or 6 notes can resolve to different tonics when heard in isolation and then when heard with melodies intentionally set in different tonics can resolve to those tonics. It is not a big revelatory statement but I find that to be quite profound. To keep it simple, that preclude can simply be S-P-S or S-G-P-S. Since there is no drone, even those are not indicative of the tonic since I can play the 5th degree and octave apart degree from any note, not just the tonic. To make it concrete I recorded these four samples

https://soundcloud.com/carnaticmusicpie ... resolution

(bear with me for any not-so-correct execution of the notes)

The first sample is the test sequence. I did not attempt to resolve it to anything. You can check for yourself if resolves to anything on first listen? (soundcloud plays them all continuously, so if you want to listen to one sample at a time, explicitly pause the playback)

The other samples are with something stuck in front of it which make the test sequence resolve to different tonics. You will readily see what I did.

What is in those prelude sequences that leads one to the different resolutions? is it the kArvai/resting note or something else. It can not just be the Octave separated notes that gives the clue, since I could have played an octave separated notes from any other note of the scale.

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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by Ranganayaki »

VK, to me, your test sequence sounded like pmgrgs on the very first listen. In the others they sounded like dpmgmr, grsnsd and again pmgrgs. In the latter three, each of your "preludes" begins with a note, the fifth note above that note and four notes above the second, setting an octave and within that octave, the swara sthanas (tones) are recognized as different swaras. For me that's how it worked. I could force it to remain constant and see the new "sa pa sa" in the old context as different swaras than what I heard, but I think the carnatic mind does not work like that automatically without a wider context of continuous music (continuing from the previous sample). I think those intervals are automatically recognized as the definition of an octave and become a new frame of reference each time.

I was reminded of this in the Mongolian music thread - there were mentions of mohanam, shuddha saveri, madhyamavati and shuddha dhanyasi. That is more interesting as the music seemed not to be structured around a tonic at all, one towards which other notes would tend as it did in "fur elise" and each of our responses was different. It seemed to just go up and down a scale without settling and yet I settled on something, while Arasi (for example) must have "resolved" it in some other way.

vasanthakokilam wrote:What is in those prelude sequences that leads one to the different resolutions? is it the kArvai/resting note or something else. It can not just be the Octave separated notes that gives the clue, since I could have played an octave separated notes from any other note of the scale.
I think it IS the octave separated notes with the fifth in between along with the complete absence of any OTHER musical context that draws a conditioned response from us of shifting our frame of reference to this new octave and recognizing the same tones differently as new notes.

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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Ranganayaki, Regarding your thoughts on how you resolved them and why, that is pretty much in sync with what I am thinking.

That mangolian music phenomenon in the other thread has been repeated a lot of times in Chinese and Thai restaurants where they play pentatonic music over the sound system. With a bunch of us at the table with some exposure to CM ragas, the raga identification does vary from Mohanam, Suddha Saverti etc.

You resolved exactly the way I intended it and how I resolved it myself as well. But it is interesting you resolved the test sequence itself with the tonic as the last note with no other clues. That is perfectly fine but just as fyi when I played it I had 'dpmgmr' in mind!! ( not that it means anything since there were absolutely no other clues )

So the prelude establishes the context to help us resolve the test sequence to different tonics. While getting to that resolution we were not thinking of any tonal centers for those notes. I would characterize it as a subjective phenomenon.

Back to the concept of tonal center as the definition of Tonic, did I create different tonal centers through those different preludes? That is the the only logical conclusion to come to but I did not create any such thing intentionally. In fact, what I really intended is to play Sa-Pa-Sa at three different shadjams. And you resolved to the tonics exactly according to that plan. That is perfectly natural for CM folks but not so for western musicians. They think of tonic as the tonal center of the notes being played. So what is going on? Are these two sets of people experiencing the same subjective resolution phenomenon but western world just happens to call it the 'tonal center'? And that I should not bring in any literal meaning to the word 'center' and just accept that it means the same as resolution? If so that will be a bit disappointing and not very satisfactory (since I would like people to use words for the meanings they convey) but if that is what it is, I will let that go.

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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by Ranganayaki »

vasanthakokilam wrote:
Back to the concept of tonal center as the definition of Tonic, did I create different tonal centers through those different preludes? That is the the only logical conclusion to come to but I did not create any such thing intentionally. In fact, what I really intended is to play Sa-Pa-Sa at three different shadjams. And you resolved to the tonics exactly according to that plan. That is perfectly natural for CM folks but not so for western musicians. They think of tonic as the tonal center of the notes being played. So what is going on? Are these two sets of people experiencing the same subjective resolution phenomenon but western world just happens to call it the 'tonal center'? And that I should not bring in any literal meaning to the word 'center' and just accept that it means the same as resolution? If so that will be a bit disappointing and not very satisfactory (since I would like people to use words for the meanings they convey) but if that is what it is, I will let that go.
VK, I think what you did is sa pa sa.. that gives me a frame of reference for the octave. If a westerner is able to identify a range there, that would again be because of the octave that you have defined in the prelude. The tone +5 tone + 4tone defines the octave and the tonic. I don't think I would call it a tonal center (but I speak as a lay person), but just a tonic note. I think the tonal center is established rather dynamically in a composition through the interaction among all the notes and the music, whereas the tonic is just a static note which defines a scale. The tonal center is like the stillness achieved by a juggler who creates a system of constant movement of all the parts, with each note performing a dance with all the others and this center arises in a subtle way, not in an explicit fashion. Your sa pa sa was explicit and just defines the tonic, and establishes an octave as a frame of reference.

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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Ranganayaki, Understood. I have two separate follow up matters to write about. They are related but are different enough to separate them for purposes of clarity and avoiding clutter and confusion.
=========
I agree that my 'tonic' was a static note. I have a question. Did you go through the process of figuring out that the prelude I played is S-P-S and then in that frame work did you re-interpret my test note sequence to be the three different sets of swara sequences or it was a more a subjective process of resolving to the tonic by extending my test sequence? That is, after the test sequence is played, it felt incomplete and you naturally could extend it to the tonic after that ( which then happened to be same as the note I played after a gap? I do not know if I am being clear in asking this question.

For me, given my lack of skills at swara deciphering, it is the latter. In each one of the samples (except the first one) the note I played after the test sequence after a gap is what gave me that comfort factor which I am calling resolution. Of course, for the last one, the last note of my test sequence itself provided that comfortable resolution. But given that the different preludes changed that resolving note, it is indeed the prelude that established the tonic which I was subconsciously latching on to in feeling comfortable when that prelude established tonic note was played.

But what I am still not sure of is, is it the S-P-S interval I played which established that tonic or the long resting note I played at the end of the prelude that did it?
Because, If I am prone to vidandAvAdam, at a theoretical level, I can claim that my prelude was all based on R2-D2-R2 But most CM people would indeed interpret it as S-P-S and not R2-D2-R2. Is it just conditioning? ( may be this conditioning is universal? )

Second, if a westerner resolves to the same tonic as you and I did, then what are they latching on to in coming to that conclusion? It has to be something inherent in the notes played and if so what is it?
==========
I somewhat understand your description of tonal center with that juggler metaphor. But I am not there fully yet. Not that I am refusing to see what you are trying to convey but I am trying not to gloss over things if I do not understand it well enough. I will work on that.

In the mean time I want to explore this question. What is the relationship between the tonic established by such a dynamic tonal center method and the static tonic established through a forced S-P-S and possibly through a background drone? In Indian music, are they normally the same?

Now consider this scenario. We have a drone that establishes a static tonic and then the music establishes the dynamic tonal center based tonic.They are different notes. Is it sruthi bedam that we commonly encounter in CM or it will be a different kind of bedam?

As a corollary, in that pentatonic raga identification ambiguity, is it because there is no background drone to establish the static tonic and there is no clear cut 'dynamic tonal center based tonic' established either? That is definitely one possible explanation as to why it is ambiguous and different people latch on to different tonic.
===========

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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by Ranganayaki »

VK,
Your Qu. 1. - I didn't do anything intellectual or objective, but I can understand what I did (subjectively).. The first test sequence was interpreted at the very first hearing as pmgrgs.. I don't know how to explain that.

The second time, the pause sort of stops it and though I barely hear it as a ni, it is immediately reinterpreted at first hearing as sa pa sa because of the +5 +4 intervals - I guess it is decades of listening to cm that makes me do that. There is no conscious reinterpretation of the test sequence after that.. once I have that reference, everything played is automatically interpreted within that octave, so pmgrgs sounds only like dpmgmr.. I did not reinterpret explicitly.. In fact it took me several seconds to realize that dpmgmr was exactly the same physically as pmgrgs of the previous sample. This was repeated in the next two samples. So I did not rearrange anything in my head, not even the sa pa sa, explicitly. I just did not hear the pmgrgs the second time, only dpmgmr.

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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by Ranganayaki »

Even if you do the vitandavadam you mentioned, and claim that it was r2, d2, r2, the r2 was only in your head. There was no context for me to interpret what I thought of as Sa to be r2. There NEEDS to be a Sa recognized to recognize an R2, and it comes back to what I was saying. Without a sa, an interpretation of R2(and therefore d2 R2 cannot be justified) - you might play it with r2 in mind though, but a sa has to show up, which did not happen. So the r2 of your mind was sa to my mind and it cannot be another way, unless I force it, which I am unable to, it is too difficult for me. Of course others can do it.

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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

I took a hiatus and so much has happened. But, I was reading once in a while. If Ranganayaki understands it as Sa and VK has it as Ri in his head but if both can exactly decipher the pattern or intervals throughout in line with their Sa and Ri it does not matter anymore and there is no way you can prove it as a sa or ri in the absence of a shruti box. What matters is both your arrangements coincides and with each other taking the shift of 1 pitch into account. This has happened a few times when someone plays a piano and when I try to decipher with my friend . We make out the same pattern. Just imagine you sing a Shankarabarana and then do the grahabedha of it sans a shruthi box, and sans the karaharapriya flavour ( it does not carnatic grammatic wise make sense, but just for academic purpose), and paradoxically it remains shankarabaranam just note wise or just karaharapriya. Some one barging in late can either call it shankarabaranam if he takes the Sa as Sa and otherwise if he takes Ri as sa , in which case the whole scale changes. The whole task without a shruti box is what I am talking. If there were one there, is no reason to be confused.

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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Ranganayaki, thanks, that answers the question I have. If I have anything else on that I will get back. You do have my second part to mull over.

G_M, you set the perfect stage for the point I was exploring in my second part above. Western music defines a tonic without a reference to an external drone. Something in the music defines/conveys the tonic. They call it the tonal center. Let us assume for the purposes of this discussion that it is possible to unambiguously figure out that tonal center by just hearing ( as was evident by that Beethoven sample Ranganayaki provided ). Let us also ignore any gamaka considerations for now. Your friend who barges in late can sense the tonic based on the tonic center method and identify the scale correctly. Right? Is this concept then alien to Indian music, Film or Classical.

Ranganayaki
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by Ranganayaki »

vasanthakokilam wrote: You do have my second part to mull over.
:)
It was a busy weekend, VK, and a busy evening too, so I'm writing in bits and pieces.

Not mulling over it much, I would answer your question off-hand and only the way I understand it, not that I have any deep knowledge of Western music or the Western musical experience.

I think it's a version of our sa pa sa.. when you explicitly do the note +5 +4, you are defining an octave, which would help them resolve it to what they consider as the tonic or tonic center and when you play your tune, a scale may be defined. I believe they call the 5th note above the tonic a dominant.. it seems to be a significant note for them too.

Ranganayaki
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by Ranganayaki »

vasanthakokilam wrote:
In the mean time I want to explore this question. What is the relationship between the tonic established by such a dynamic tonal center method and the static tonic established through a forced S-P-S and possibly through a background drone? In Indian music, are they normally the same?
I think so - if I understand you correctly.. This is what I mean: Though we have the static, explicit establishment of the sa pa sa because all swaras are relative to the sa pa sa, we can easily sing a song without singing sa pa sa and without a drone. We can easily delineate a raga without the aid of a tambura or singing sa pa sa first and have it correctly recognized. The tonic center exists in our songs and in our music, but we don't talk about it as such because the wider tradition is explicit and we don't need to talk about the sa with special terminology, but westerners have the term to explicitly denote something that is only implicit in the music.

Also in our music we explicitly sing notes with their names.. I don't believe Western tradition has the singing of notes with any names. No one sings abcdefg, gfedcba or even do re mi explicitly in a concert or in any music you hear. In our system, there are all sorts of explicit methods to indicate the tonal center or the octave limits and that remains constant throughout the concert, there is hardly anything to talk about. I don't really like talking about our ragas as scales because when you use that terminology and talk of a scale change mean a change in the raga, then in their terminology/system, the tonic changes too. But our tonic remains constant and it's the intervals that change, over the exact same octave.

Ranganayaki
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by Ranganayaki »

vasanthakokilam wrote: Now consider this scenario. We have a drone that establishes a static tonic and then the music establishes the dynamic tonal center based tonic.They are different notes. Is it sruthi bedam that we commonly encounter in CM or it will be a different kind of bedam?

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Again only my view as I think about it, my sense of our music:

I think that if you can talk about Shrutibhedam or Grihabhedam only in the context of some raga already being delineated. You are singing a raga in a particular shruti established by your drone with a specific tonic center corresponding to the shruti. In grihabhedam, you shift the tonic to another note ON THAT SCALE and sing the same physical notes and the new tonic provides a new context and a reinterpretation of those physical notes as a different raga. Then you have grihabhedam.

If you have a drone and you simply sing to a different tonic and you have a raga at that tonic, I would just interpret that as someone singing off-key - apashruti. It cannot be called grihabhedam as there is no starting raga.

Ranganayaki
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by Ranganayaki »

vasanthakokilam wrote: As a corollary, in that pentatonic raga identification ambiguity, is it because there is no background drone to establish the static tonic and there is no clear cut 'dynamic tonal center based tonic' established either? That is definitely one possible explanation as to why it is ambiguous and different people latch on to different tonic.
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Yes (guess you mean the Mongolian music). I think that's what it is.

Ranganayaki
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by Ranganayaki »

vasanthakokilam wrote: Let us also ignore any gamaka considerations for now. Your friend who barges in late can sense the tonic based on the tonic center method and identify the scale correctly. Right? Is this concept then alien to Indian music, Film or Classical.
My answer to your question to GM (because it brings us back to sth I just wrote) No it is not - we do it all the time when we sing without a drone and our singing is correctly recognized - the song, the raga.. - same as I said in a previous answer.

Or have I misunderstood the question? - Welcome back, GM.

ganesh_mourthy
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

Hello VK and Ranganayaki,

That was a long hibernation , but summer instead of automn or winter. It is actually the searing heat and I think it took a toll on most people health. Or still continues to.

Well VK , there are many good points you have put forth and RN has elevated out discussion to next level. Thanks RN

Assuming that you have internalized the swaras individually , let us move on.

If you think you have internalized then it is still not going to help . The reason is music is not about sticking out each and every swarams , but to merge one with other to form a melody. Say for instance,

Let us take Mayamalavagowla. This helped me in the beginning because of the distance between swaras. All that I had to understand was the grammar. For simplicity sake , let us divide it into four parts. Sa and ri as 1, ga and ma as 2, pa and dha as three, ni and again upper sa as 4.

At this level and after practicing the uttaragana and poorvanga separately , I am sure you can make out whether one is singing at 1 , 2 , 3 or 4. That is reasonably easy with a shruthi petti. And to go further deeper the grammar helps especially when one sings at vilambit. You can make out th edifference between sa and ri as sa has no oscillation while ri has. Similarly you oscillate the dha and ni and ga is various ways while Pa and Sa stays still. In face Mayamalavagowlai was the one where I was able to decipher part by part first those days. The arrangement of notes and the grammar is very helpful.

Listen to this clear version.

By the by, should we not be in Technical discussions rather than school. I think we should sneak in there before we are attacked for our blabbering in the music school. :)

ganesh_mourthy
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

vasanthakokilam wrote:
G_M, you set the perfect stage for the point I was exploring in my second part above. Western music defines a tonic without a reference to an external drone. Something in the music defines/conveys the tonic. They call it the tonal center. Let us assume for the purposes of this discussion that it is possible to unambiguously figure out that tonal center by just hearing ( as was evident by that Beethoven sample Ranganayaki provided ). Let us also ignore any gamaka considerations for now. Your friend who barges in late can sense the tonic based on the tonic center method and identify the scale correctly. Right? Is this concept then alien to Indian music, Film or Classical.
Yoo-Hoo Mr. VK :)

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

Post by vasanthakokilam »

G_M, I just noticed your last two posts. I am a bit busy now and I will get back to this.

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