The tyranny of sahityam!

Music · Post by **Music** » 27 Sep 2006, 09:11

As far as Nedunuri's tunes for Annamacharya go, following are what I heard often. They all sound more semi-classical to me:
1. Muddugare Yashoda - very catchy tune, but something that you could sing only as a tukkada.
2. Paluku tenela talli - Karnataka kapi
3. Adi deva paramatma - Sindhubhairavi (this one is available on Sangeethapriya.com)
4. Even Sreemannarayana & Nanatibatuku (Bhouli & Revati respectively) appear semi-classical to me.

Relatively heavier ones:
1. Bhavamulona - Suddha Dhanyasi
2. Brahma kadigina padamu - Mukhari
3. Edutayunnadu - Bhujangini (this one is also on Sangeethapriya, I think)

Of course, doesn't mean anyone of them is any less of a gem. All the tunes are endearing, no matter whether they are regarded as classical or semi-classical. I have not heard any that is in a chouka kala (2 kalai). These are the only few that I am familiar with, but that should give a moderately good picture.

By the way, at least a couple of the Annamacharya songs that MSS popularized were Dr. Pinakapani's tunes:
1. Devadevam bhaje - Hindola,
2. Vandeham jagatvallabham - Hamsadhwani
These sound very classical to me. There is another of Dr. SP's tunings in Mohana, not heard very much - Konaro konaro in Mohana. Ample scope for ragam, nereval, swaram. He tuned the popular 'Tandanana ahi' in Shankarabharanam, though we often hear it in Bhouli. Sudha Raghunathan often sings the Bhouli version.

I guess it also depends on how you define semi-classical. To me all Bharatiyar songs, many Ramadas Kirtanas (Dr. BMK has a few recordings of these) are semi-classical. i.e. ones that are more apt to be rendered after taniavartanam rather than before the taniavartanam. They don't have much scope for manodharma. At the same time, they are set to clearly identifiable ragas & talas, unlike light music.

humdinger · Post by **humdinger** » 27 Sep 2006, 11:53

going back to the pronounciation thingie, i would like to talk of one of my favourite singers Sanjay Subramanian. IMO, he is an universal singer who truly transcends language boundaries.

He sings relatively more tamil compositions, and i have seen many requests on online forums by tamilians asking for lyrics of what he sang as they couldnt decipher while listening.

Once i was with a kannada friend in concert and sanjay sang a beautiful javali, "maathaaDa bAradenO..." i asked my friend about the meaning. And the reply was "was it a kannaDa composition?"

And i have a hard time figuring out his telugu renderings.

But his music is so good, i never want to miss a concert of him around.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 27 Sep 2006, 12:10

A Tangent

Perhaps the fact that Annamacharya's songs are said to be composed by him points to the tyranny of sahitya?

As the original melodies have been lost, he can only be said to be the lyricist of the current versions: not the composer!

rrao13 · Post by **rrao13** » 27 Sep 2006, 18:12

I have been browsing this topic for several days and finally thought of adding my 2 cents. First and foremost, I think we should change the title of this thread to something softer such as "Discussion on Saahitya" or "Importance of Saahitya" or some thing similar. The current title containing the word 'tyranny' is rather harsh and unpleasant. We are all discussing Karnatik Music which is a form of divine expression. If we were to discuss, a demon like Raavana then we can use the word tyranny; for eg: Tyranny of Raavanasura .... Just my humble opinion.

Secondly, I think Saahitya and Raaga debate is similar to the one on Gnana Marga and Bhakti Marga. Both these are like the two wings of a dove and if either of them is faulty, then the flying is not smooth. Also, to extrapolate Shri Rajaji's introductory speech in Shrimathi MSS's Bhaja Govindam rendering, may be one leads to the other.

Anyway, this was my first bold venture into writing something on this message board and I apologise in advance if I have expressed anything inappropriate or hurt anyone's feelings inadvertently. I am an absolute newcomer into the fascinating world of Karnatik Music and my knowledge in this field can be written on the back of a bus ticket. Thank you for your time.

Vocalist · Post by **Vocalist** » 27 Sep 2006, 20:21

Gawd...whistles, kattarikkAis, rasams...this list is endless!! Yet, some of the hyprocrites accept Tiger, SSI etc. singing like that, while criticising modern artists for using these absurd pallavi lines, krithis, nerevals, etc. :rolleyes:

lol @ VJ - you need a grizzly hug.

I have to agree with "DRS" on "arunk"s posting. Kudos arunk!

"Music" kinda makes a point too. BMK, Nithyashree, KBS are a few of the only ones who say the words properly, but sing it at the same time...if that makes sense. MLV for example, her music was awesome, and as far as i know, her pronounciation is good, but her sahithya is hard to catch at times. Though some people might disagree with me here, I sometimes find BJ's & Sanjay's hard to catch too.

On the point of bhAvA v language -> I think it depends which sense of bhAvA we're talking. Sowmya has sung a beautiful thevaram/virutham followed by a GKB item "Idhu Thaano Thillai Sthalam" in behAg. Now, her bhAvA doesn't lack here. The behAg and other rAgAs was so clear cut. However, I couldn't say her pronounciation was so wonderful. Sure, it wasn't mutilating the composition completely, but is that really good enough? I think it's the same kinda Yesudas thing...but that's just my view on it.

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 27 Sep 2006, 21:11

Vocalist wrote:"Music" kinda makes a point too. BMK, Nithyashree, KBS are a few of the only ones who say the words properly, but sing it at the same time...if that makes sense. MLV for example, her music was awesome, and as far as i know, her pronounciation is good, but her sahithya is hard to catch at times. Though some people might disagree with me here, I sometimes find BJ's & Sanjay's hard to catch too.

Does KBS -> K B Sundarambal?

In that case, I do not really know anything about KBS's music, since I haven't listened to many
of her recordings.

But bringing the names like Nithyashree at the same time as BMK regarding sAhitya shudda? :rolleyes:

Given her background, I would expect her to render MD's kritis with more of sAhitya "shuddha"ness.

-Ramakriya

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 28 Sep 2006, 02:21

I agree with rrao13 - the title of this thread is quite harsh. Perhaps the intention was to provoke responses??

rrao13 - no need to apologise. Your point is quite correct.

hsuvarna · Post by **hsuvarna** » 28 Sep 2006, 04:48

drshrikaanth wrote:
hsuvarna wrote:Similarly the vishnu sahasra naamaalu, bhaja govindam are great examples of sahitya-sangita-bhava by a non-telugu person.
These two are not telugu pieces. They are in sanskrit. How do they figure here?

non-telugu carried from sreemannarayana/naanaatiki from previous sentence.
I can simply say that her sanskrit rendetion is very good too.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 28 Sep 2006, 06:59

rrrao and ragam-talam,
Glad that you agree with me on the inappropriate word tyranny. I had a feeling that the thread title smacked of a popular press headline and no wonder it drew much attention. I don't think Jayaram meant it that way although I felt that he resented those who went to an extreme on LANGUAGE issues. sAhityA somehow happened to be around and took the bashing. I am not an extermist, yet my fervor for words (sAhityA is after all words) got me and other lovers of words into trouble (where suspects were called the police)

Yes, not many old masters paid much attention to sAhityA. Their grand music makes us forget that and nostalgia helps. We tend to overlook that in contemporary musicians too, if their music is great. The doyens of the past are not with us anymore but today's musicians can keep sAhityA in mind when they sing which will make them better than their predecessors. Anyway, I think tyranny was an industrial strenght word and brought about unnecassary agitations...
Ravi, where are you?

Vocalist · Post by **Vocalist** » 28 Sep 2006, 07:45

But ramakriya, I was referring more to Tamil sahithya "shudda-ness". I know in the Tamil crowd scattered around, that it's one of the things they also love about her music - her 'utcharippu' (not sure if I said it right...). Having said that, I haven't heard Telugu or Kannada crowds complain about her sahithya? I can't comment about Sanskrit, because I haven't heard a complaint about it before - and myself wouldn't know if she did make a mistake...

Yes, K.B.Sunderambal. I've found that singers who really have a really open throated style manage to convey sahithya easier than others. Perhaps one of the reasons I've become a fan of that style over time. Another artist I forgot to mention: Seerkazhi Govindarajan.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 28 Sep 2006, 10:35

there are two situations in industrial engineering which are similar to the problems faced here..
One what we call the hygeine factors.
The fact that these exist does not necessarily mean or guarantee high performance ( lighting , ambience , work culture etc)
but their absence necessarily means a path to poor performance.

Second while dealing with spares and probability of failure , we are trained to classify issues as Vital , Essential and Desirable.

I can see that all individual perceptions stem from the individuals classification of this issue in these terms.

There is no doubt that it is the tune that stirs most people than the lyrics
especially as the first impression.
(Can we make a guess on the percentage of audience that follows each and every word of ALL THE KRITHIS THAT ARE BEING SUNG IN A CONCERT )
And then as other needs in the hierarchy start appealing to us , we undergo a transformation.
as a kid i learnt to hum a rafi tune which went like "Uparwale ke soch mein' and I never paused to think of the meaning and even assumed that the hero was singing about God (uparwale- one above).
In adolesence and thanks to TV , I learnt that the hero was singing about the heroine cosily perched on the upper berth of a railway carriage ....

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 28 Sep 2006, 12:28

Vocalist wrote:But ramakriya, I was referring more to Tamil sahithya "shudda-ness". I know in the Tamil crowd scattered around, that it's one of the things they also love about her music - her 'utcharippu' (not sure if I said it right...). Having said that, I haven't heard Telugu or Kannada crowds complain about her sahithya? I can't comment about Sanskrit, because I haven't heard a complaint about it before - and myself wouldn't know if she did make a mistake...

Yes, K.B.Sunderambal. I've found that singers who really have a really open throated style manage to convey sahithya easier than others. Perhaps one of the reasons I've become a fan of that style over time. Another artist I forgot to mention: Seerkazhi Govindarajan.

I was not aware that you had limited the scope for sAhitya shudda to only tamil, hence my comment; More so because, either BMK, or MSS are known for sAhitya shuddha be it Samskrita, Telugu, Kannada or Tamil.

-Ramakriya

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 28 Sep 2006, 17:37

First of all, let me apologise to all those who found the title of this thread a bit too harsh. I must admit when I started this topic my intention was to voice my (rather strong) opinion and elicit responses from others. But after having read the various well-written postings here, I do agree that perhaps the title does come across as jarring.

Unfortunately I cannot change the title. I leave it to the admins here to change the topic title if they wish to.

I have learnt a lot thru these exchanges, and can appreciate now the relevance of sahitya.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 28 Sep 2006, 20:59

nice Jayaram.. I think your note brings the story to a nice conclusion. I would prefer that the title of the thread stays, people will be motivated to check it out

Somtimes you can not tell the book by the cover.

Ah.. the tyranny of good discussions

new1 · Post by **new1** » 28 Sep 2006, 22:36

Interesting discussion...

As a non-expert in CM as well as in Sahityam and also as a not too deeply religious person I have always felt the lyrics interfere with the music more than it enhances the bhava etc. Forgive me for saying this. Reason is too many times you see even great artistes trying to prounounce the words completely and correctly and in the process introduce some jarring patterns to otherwise smooth flowing music...

MMI is a perhaps in a class of his own and is probably not comparable or useful as a standard in this context. As TNS (?) once mentioned, he is a 'nada yogi' and anything he utters is music. It would probably be disastrous for another musician however talented to try and mimic his 'ignoring' the lyrics..MMI does it like only he can.

When someone who is a genuine 'bhakta' sings devotional songs, the emotion shows - and the song is enjoyable for that - such as Chembai. However the bigger issue is that CM has remained somewhat aloof from larger audience as well as potential talent pools simply because it has become too closely tied to the bhakthi-bhava and that is largely due to the lyrics. A religiously neutral person or those from other religions as well as those not so deeply into the Bhakthi cult feels somewhat left out. This has slowly pushed CM to be a niche thing instead of mass market one, unlike HM.

A reduction of emphasis on lyrics will end up enhancing the musical experience. It would be hard for mediocre artists who jump on to the stage too quickly using contacts / resources to turn the rendition into a 'light music' session and thereby force them to become more thorough in their understanding of the raag (more like Hindustani). This trend incidentally, has become the bane of both CM and HM and many senior artists have repeatedly criticised this.

$0.02

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 28 Sep 2006, 23:04

To sum it all:

lOkO bhinna ruchiH

-Ramakriya

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 29 Sep 2006, 02:44

rAgA suraTi (sorry, it has sAhityA; You may ignore it and hum instead in notes)

mangaLam

raskiAs have bhinna ruchi
S~~~o
mangaLam to varie~~~ty
which a--dds such qua~~~~lity
to our commu~~~~nity
mangaLAm, mangaLAm

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 04 Oct 2006, 02:09

An epilogue to this thread...

Under the topic Saint Tyagaraja's Revenge, Ram Sriram quotes Tyagaraja as saying,
[quote]"In Telisi Rama Chinthanatho, did I not point out that what the mind is meditating on is more important than the words? I stressed that it is not worth acquiring knowledge unless you use it for your emancipation. One who has not benefited from his erudition and knowledge is like a donkey carrying a load of books."

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 04 Oct 2006, 09:57

How I wish that all our musicians could do Nadopasana aiming at emancipation for themselves and also take along the rasikas while they are singing. Adi Sankaracharya in his Bhaja Govindam says 'nahi nahi rakSati dukRJkaraNE' - grammar and philology won't protect one during the final journey.
Let us start counting on our fingers the number of musicians aiming at emancipation and practicing Nadopasana.
How many musicians can think of 'brahmA' when uttering 'aja'? How many can think of 'sUrya' when uttering 'arka' and finally can indeed they think of 'rAma' the tAraka nAma when uttering 'rAma'?
How many can stop their wandering thoughts even for a minute and behold zrI rAma - the tAraka rUpa 'talapulanni nilipi nimiSamaina tAraka rUpuni nija tattavmulanu telisi'?
Let us not quote Saint Thyagaraja out of context in order justify our shortcomings.
V Govindan

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 04 Oct 2006, 21:12

VK,
You thought (and I did too) that the discussion ended with a conclusion and a mangaLam. Well, as Jayaram suggested, had the title been changed! Ah, the tyranny of it all...

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 04 Oct 2006, 21:32

Epilogue, epÃƒâ€šÃ‚Â·iÃƒâ€šÃ‚Â·logue, n. A short poem or speech spoken directly to the audience following the conclusion of a play

Arasi, that was a post-mangalam missive from my side!

<<the fat lady sings in the background>>

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 10 Jun 2007, 22:35

I was just listening to Yesu Das on 'World Space' - Featured Artist singing tyAgarAja kRti - 'mAkElarA vicAramu'.
He has made a mince-meat of the sAhitya. And what a loud applause! Wonderful artists and wonder rasikas! Indeed what a tyrant sAhityam is to the artists!

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 10 Jun 2007, 23:55

Dear new1 & vgvindan,
The beauty of the compositions of the Trinity & Papanasam Sivan is the words, swarasthanams & the thalam all COMBINE to a great masterpiece of creativity. For example all the ragas, thalas as well the lyrics in the Navagraha kritis of Dhikshitar are so PERFECTLY chosen even now there are lecdems on his choices by great experts; Getting applause is a different story & involves correctly judging the level of the audience like Reagan being a great communicator etc. Lets leave the composers alone unless one can shed light on their insights&creativity. To give a very simple example as LGJ pointed out in one of his lectures, the words, swaras, thalam in Kshheera sagara sayana & Oh!Rangasayee are so perfecly composed & as MMI pointed out he has tried to render Vataphi all his life & felt he never fully rendered it perfectly; This is from one considered the gloden standard for rendering the composition& MMI knew Tamil, Telugu & Sanskrit very well....Creativity is what we sholud try to understand& appreciate it whether it is the artist or composer. VKV