Suggestions for quiz

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 03 Feb 2007, 05:35

jayaram wrote:it's all your fault! you always include at least one tricky question.

just one?? :rolleyes:

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 03 Feb 2007, 05:36

The answers are up friends

Great peformance by everyone in this thread. Keep it up!

Maybe this was a very easy round- not tricky at all

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 03 Feb 2007, 05:38

May be I should have gone with the swaras instead of looking at the range for mAyadantha maLe bantaNNa ..

Gone for a toss there!

BTW, the folk section was the toughest. Detecting the phrases, as well as allied rAga section were quite easy.

The single note section was indeed novel

-Ramakriya

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 03 Feb 2007, 05:44

This was my favorite round. Right level of challenge at the same time not way too difficult.

Excellent job, DRS! I get the feeling you worked quite hard to set these questions. Quite a bit of imagination there!

3 cheers for our very own Shrikanth Murthy-garu!

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 03 Feb 2007, 05:48

I am interested in learning more esp about the swara-gamaka questions. Perhaps DRS can give us a lesson on this topic some time? And would it be possible for us to hear extended versions of these clips?

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 03 Feb 2007, 06:00

My favorite round too

And I did a mistake in numbering in folk song

Got one wrong because of that.

nACAramma helped me with folk song 5

Nishada and rishaba I scored well to my surprise...

Great quiz

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 03 Feb 2007, 06:31

Ramakriya, yes i found the folk tunes hardest too. Found N3 also hard and was tossing between two ragas before going for the wrong one!

vasya10 · Post by **vasya10** » 03 Feb 2007, 06:59

The kurinji song has a strong resemblance to Sita kalyana vaibhogame of Sri T's utsava sampradaya kritis. Some say it is in Shankarabharanam (i remember it was in a sangeetha cassette long ago), some say it is in Kurinji. Which is the correct one ?

I must have caught the wrong sruti again for the first folk song, i heard it went like S n p , S n p and "guessed" it had madhyamvati notes.

The vakulabharaNa was a bit easy to guess as it sounded like mayamalavagaula yet had the N2.

The rishabha and nishada put me off, as ive not trained to just capture sancharas in a short period. Nevertheless it was very educative.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 03 Feb 2007, 11:04

drshrikaanth wrote:Maybe this was a very easy round- not tricky at all

Not for me...

But Im happy to have worked hard to put my learning to test.

Now all the rAgas I could identify in my bag are nearly exhausted. Hmm.. what will the next round be like..

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 03 Feb 2007, 11:08

Vasya - same with me for the 3rd - I think the intervals were identifiable but the sruthi takes some guessing! I was lazy on folk 5 and went for Nadanamakriya instead of trying to get the notes. 2 of the folk songs were quite carnatic-ish and easily identifiable

Also slipped up on Punnagavarali which is not a raga I am very familiar with. Rest were quite easy

Allied ragas section was the easiest of all - except I still don't follow how Behag fits into the first triplet - maybe it uses M2 on occasion? Nayaki Durbar I suppose the only question was which is which and even that was quite clear.

Nishada-Rishabam section was another challenging round - I was not sure about Kalyani - I could make out that it was Kakali Nishadam with D2 mixed in - thought it smacked of Gowri Manohari but went for the safe answer in the end. Sahana was also somewhat dicey but the one I got wrong was B-Saranga - I went for Abheri

ksrimech · Post by **ksrimech** » 03 Feb 2007, 14:22

I could hear SrivEnugOpAla and rA rA chinnanna swarA phrases for the kurunji and jhanjhUTi pieces in the first few phrases. I got fooled on the vakuLAbharanA piece. Answered it as mAyAmALavagouLa. I heard madhyAmAvathy in the folk tune

I was the one who gave Murthy garu the multiple choice in the niSAdA 3 and riSabha 1 pieces. All I could get was they were the ni's and ri's of a kharaharapriya janyas and gave my answer as madhyamAvathy/maNirangu/SrI. I have heard Smt DKPattammal render both the ragas and the swarastAnAs are so close to each other with similar prayOgAs. Murthy garu I apologise for not heeding to your words. But I would request you to give us your opinion on the usage of ni and ri in madhyamAvathy/maNirangu/SrI/brindAvana sArangA so that we dont commit that mistake again.

But this one was a awesome and mind boggling quiz. I just loved it and was nice when I broke my head over the kannaDa piece which sounded a lot close to bEgaDa (atleast to me). After an hour of speculation and the running lAlguDi's SrimAtrubhutam (may be its him playing the same song) played at bhArat kalAchar some years ago, decided on the kannaDa.

All the others were like akkAra adisal. My score should be 17/20 and Mohanji, Ramakriyaji and fellow rasikas have surely done better. Thank you for this sweet treat. Kudos Murthy garu. Keep that coming in.

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 03 Feb 2007, 14:24

Phrases and Triplets:
For me the phrases and allied triplets and pairs were easy. May be if had not said allied pair and I may have not got the nAyaki. So in a way pairing and tripleting really helped all of us as it was a big clue. I think the connection of behAg with sAranga and HameerkalyAni may be because of the proximal melakartha connection, shankarabharanam and kalyAni. Perhaps DRS may have a better explanation??.

On Swaras:
kalyAni, shuruTTi and sahAna was easy.Lucky to get rishaba1 as madhyamavati. For me the one second nishAda3 was too tough . I rounded that as AbhEri , still did not get the brindavana sAranga . I connected it as AbhEri with a very famous tamil song singAravelanin in the movie kONjum salangai. DRS definitely will get a better explanation of how it is brindavana sAranga ,and possibly why it is not AbhEri.

On Folks:
Both FOlk1 and Folk 3 I got it as suddasAveri in first pass. Then in Folk1 got the mOhanam tinge too. Assumed both questions will not have the same answer, tried to map wrongly as madhyamAvati for folk3.

Folk2 was a long and easy one to map as kurinji.

The folk4 definitely is senjuruTTi , only after DRS gave the answer. But when I heard the easy shenjuruTTI slipped and I put the answer as shankharAbharanam. Even now to me there is a tinge of both shankarAbharanam and shenjuruTTI.Can you reclarify DRS?

Folk5 like few of you , I did put the answer as mAyamAlavagowlai(melakartha #15). Would be nice to hear from DRS , if he helps where he distinguished the N2 to make it vakulAbharanam (melakartha #14). I am never familiar with vakulAbharanam, so no way I would have got it .

DRS,
Brilliant and Excellent quiz. Whatever is bolded are my questions?

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 03 Feb 2007, 14:32

rajeshnat wrote:For me the one second nishAda3 was too tough . I rounded that as AbhEri , still did not get the brindavana sAranga . I connected it as AbhEri with a very famous tamil song singAravelanin in the movie kONjum salangai. DRS definitely will get a better explanation of how it is brindavana sAranga ,and possibly why it is not AbhEri?

Yes - I had the same reasoning! I was debating between Brindavana Saranga (such as Rangapuravihara) and Abheri (singavelanin) and chose the latter.

I also thought the Folk 5 was mayamalavagowla based and opted for Nadanamakriya. Probably I didn't listen carefully enough on that one!

shripathi_g · Post by **shripathi_g** » 03 Feb 2007, 14:33

What was the phrase that was played for Kannada? Since I go by phrases, I sent in the answer as Begada. Did anyone else think it sounded like Begada? Surprisingly, I got 4 out of 5 in the swara/gamaka section but got whipped in the folk songs section.

The Vakulabharanam song sounded exactly like this one - http://www.musicindiaonline.com/p/x/PU7 ... As1NMvHdW/ though I couldn't identify the raga.

Vakulabharanam
______________ ( Whoosh)

My Head

What language was the Madhyamavathi folk song in? Folk song 4 sounded just like the beginning in Pacchai Kiligal Tholudu in the movie Indian. I read somewhere that that song was in the raga Kapi and put that down as the answer though it didn't sound like Kapi.

Awesome quiz!! Looking forward to more like this. Great learning experience.

-Sripathi

shripathi_g · Post by **shripathi_g** » 03 Feb 2007, 14:42

Whoa ok!! Didn't get to read the above 2 or 3 responses. Feels good to know that I wasn't the only one that chose Begada over Kannada and Abheri over Brindavana Saranga. GMTA!!

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 03 Feb 2007, 15:04

I thought Folk-1 sounded like Mohanakalyani. DRS, you have mentioned Mohanam/shuddhasaveri. I thought we were supposed to identify just ONE closest ragam.

Folk-3 and Madhyamavathi? DRS, please educate us on this one.

Nishada-3: I too thought this was Abheri. Would like to hear the reasoning for Brind-saranga.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 03 Feb 2007, 15:25

rajeshnat wrote:I connected it as AbhEri with a very famous tamil song singAravelanin in the movie kONjum salangai.

You hit the nail on the head. A Huge number of participants answered abhEri and I surmised why that happened. I played the song from konjum saangai- did no find this phrase at all. Shows what a powerful influence film music can wield on ones psyche.

Even now to me there is a tinge of both shankarAbharanam and shenjuruTTI.Can you reclarify DRS?

Would be nice to hear from DRS , if he helps where he distinguished the N2 to make it vakulAbharanam (melakartha #14)

I will let those who got the right answer tto field this question. DRS does not have to do it all

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 03 Feb 2007, 15:27

jayaram wrote:I thought Folk-1 sounded like Mohanakalyani. DRS, you have mentioned Mohanam/shuddhasaveri. I thought we were supposed to identify just ONE closest ragam.

Yes- only one answer as those who heard mOhan would not hear SuddhasAvEri or vice versa. mOhana is certianly more suitable but I cannot fault dEvakriya/SuddhaAveri.
mOhanakalyANi-no way.

Nishada-3: I too thought this was Abheri. Would like to hear the reasoning for Brind-saranga.

I woud first ike to know what is your(And many others) reasoning behind wrongly identifying this as abhEri.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 03 Feb 2007, 15:46

Suji Ram wrote:nACAramma helped me with folk song 5

I knew you had seen the connection when I saw the smiley beside your answer. I am pleased you saw it. Very good performance.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 03 Feb 2007, 15:49

shripathi_g wrote:What language was the Madhyamavathi folk song in?

kannaDa. Thats a very popular folk song (jAnapada gIte). It is a kOlATa song as you can see from the refrain "kOlenna kOle"

gdg · Post by **gdg** » 03 Feb 2007, 15:50

who are the winners at last?

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 03 Feb 2007, 15:53

Not so fast gdg. One more round to go! That wi be a different round

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 03 Feb 2007, 21:53

drshrikaanth wrote:
Suji Ram wrote:nACAramma helped me with folk song 5
I knew you had seen the connection when I saw the smiley beside your answer. I am pleased you saw it. Very good performance.

Actually I don"t have the song file with me. I wrote mayamalavagaula, nadanamakriya and something clicked out of memory that you did sing in the same tune. Can you send that file to me again ?

So the B saranga was a nadaswaram... I got that right.

I accidentally switched place with 1 and 4 folk song beacause I had it in that order on my ipod (what a danger). I did answer mohana for folk 1. But no points I guess

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 03 Feb 2007, 22:53

drshrikaanth wrote:
rajeshnat wrote:I connected it as AbhEri with a very famous tamil song singAravelanin in the movie kONjum salangai.
You hit the nail on the head. A Huge number of participants answered abhEri and I surmised why that happened. I played the song from konjum saangai- did no find this phrase at all. Shows what a powerful influence film music can wield on ones psyche.

Even now to me there is a tinge of both shankarAbharanam and shenjuruTTI.Can you reclarify DRS?

Would be nice to hear from DRS , if he helps where he distinguished the N2 to make it vakulAbharanam (melakartha #14)
I will let those who got the right answer tto field this question. DRS does not have to do it all

May I try even though I got it wrong - just a touch in the first phrase towards the end - Mayathakamalemuthanna (apologies for the murder!) - S,RPM,GMGR,SN,,,.It appears quite a sharp Kaisiki Nishadam, making it very difficult to differentiate.I think this is the only time that Nishadam appears in the clip although there appears to be a mixed Dhaivatham/Nishadam at "Mola" in Andhaiyandhu Molanage (around 6 to 8 seconds). But I will wait for doc's final diagnosis...

Mohan, it is almost an honour to have committed the same mistakes as you (Abheri and Nadanamakriya) although I've made a few more!

BTW, from what doc says, it appears that this was just a mid term...but to do well in the final exams, we need to know where we stand! Meanwhile eagerly awaiting round 2!

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 03 Feb 2007, 23:31

vijay,

i could be wrong although i got the answer right and actually had to use a piano keyboard of computer to figure out the sthAnams. I got N2 in the bhUmi-tUkkada gALipisi - the female chorus. It was sort of like N2 N2/S (N2/S => slide). I think even first N2 was perhaps a slide down to N2. Anyway atleast on the keyboard, N2.

I was actually quite convinced my answer was wrong as i figured "vakuLAbharaNam? cant be!" but couldnt come up with anything else for the swaras i got, so boldly gave it as vakuLAbharaNam!

Arun

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 03 Feb 2007, 23:31

oh and i gave abhEri too

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 03 Feb 2007, 23:50

Arun how does one get piano keyboard on computer?

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 04 Feb 2007, 00:00

i dont know about PC, but on the mac it is built into one of the standard programs nowadays (garageband).

There used to be on online keyboard which you can access from web-browser but i also remember not being able to find that one. But if you google hard enough you may be able to find one.

Arun

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 04 Feb 2007, 01:22

Try this:
http://www.bgfl.org/bgfl/custom/resourc ... trings.htm

vasya10 · Post by **vasya10** » 04 Feb 2007, 02:46

i too was one among who wrote abheri for the nishAda, and yes I connected with the singAravelavan tamil song. That nadasvaram sounded very familiar with that song.

Reverting to my earlier question, is sitakalyANa is in shankarabharanam or kurinji ?

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 04 Feb 2007, 03:22

shripathi_g wrote:What language was the Madhyamavathi folk song in?
-Sripathi

That is a well known kannaDa folk song

-Ramakriya

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 04 Feb 2007, 03:36

drshrikaanth wrote:Not so fast gdg. One more round to go! That wi be a different round

Rumour suggests it is a karaoke round

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 04 Feb 2007, 05:40

vasya,

sItakalyANa - i believe people say that it was originally composed in SankarAbharaNam. I think the way it is sung today, it is kurinji only (based on the ragas as we know today)

Arun

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 04 Feb 2007, 08:04

Folk 1 is bAgOrambA an Assamese folk song. Listen to it here

http://www.musicindiaonline.com/p/x/rUb ... As1NMvHdW/

The rAga of the song is mOhana or dEvakriya/SuddhasAvEri depending on which we fix as the SaDja.

If you listen carefully, you can detect "yE nIlE gagan kE talE". Here the song starts on the madra pancama and rests on SaDja (bAgOram bAgOram bAgOram bA).

The part in bold falls on the SaDja. the flow goes like "P#,G,R,- P#,G,R,- P#,G,R,- S;,- P,-G,G,R,- S;;,"

But if you fix the startiNg note as SaDja, the resting note is madhyama and the rAga becomes SuddhasAvEri and the flow is "S,D,P,- S,D,P,- S,D,P,- M;,- S*,- D,D,P,- M;;,". Such ambuguity is encountered in many folk songs and therein lies the beauty.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 04 Feb 2007, 08:17

Folk 2 in kuranji is here

http://www.musicindiaonline.com/p/x/yqf ... As1NMvHdW/

The lyrics are simple yet, profound and touching. You will see a mix of several rAgas in this song. This is another common feature in folk songs and adds a haunting quality to many songs.

The relevant clip I have posted spans just 5 swaras- N,S,R,G and a touch of madhyama. The gamaka on the niShAda is the clinching point for kuranji. This halt on the shaking niShAda(Rapid first but gradualy petering out) is so typical of kuranjiThis can never occur in SankarAbharaNa. Arunk has already pointed out about the rAga of sItAkalyANa vaibhOgamE. A shade of the gamaka on niShAda does occur in kEdAra but the flow of swaras rules that out in this case.

"S,S,S,- S,SN#RS-N#~;;;;;,-SRG,MG-S,R,S,- S;;;;;,"

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 04 Feb 2007, 08:28

celuvayya celuvO tAnE tandAna cinmaya rUpE kOlenna kOle

http://www.musicindiaonline.com/p/x/Sqf ... As1NMvHdW/

This commences on the madhyamAvati note and halts on SaDja at the end of kOlenna kOle). The range is from mandra niShAda to pancama.

"MRRM-M,MP- PM-MR-RS-SN#-N#S,N#-N#S-SR-MR-RS,S;,"

vasya10 · Post by **vasya10** » 04 Feb 2007, 08:30

DRS:

The svara patterns are really helpful. Thanks!

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 04 Feb 2007, 08:31

Iam still waiting for someone to explain how they arrived at jhanjUTi and why it is not SankarAbharaNa. Mohan- come on. You ought to share your knowledge with others.

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 04 Feb 2007, 08:49

drshrikaanth wrote:Iam still waiting for someone to explain how they arrived at jhanjUTi and why it is not SankarAbharaNa. Mohan- come on. You ought to share your knowledge with others.

Folk 4 sounded like being in madhyama sruti and had a limited range of swara-s so Sankarabharana didn't come to mind. Also I equated with Annamacharya's 'rara chinnana' set beautifully in senjurutti by Kadayanallur Venkataraman.

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 04 Feb 2007, 08:56

drshrikaanth wrote:I woud first ike to know what is your(And many others) reasoning behind wrongly identifying this as abhEri.

The Ni in the clip is played as SN SN SN (kaisaki nishada). For phrases like GRSN,,, in Abheri this is the same way N is played on an instrument.

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 04 Feb 2007, 12:10

mohan wrote:
drshrikaanth wrote:Iam still waiting for someone to explain how they arrived at jhanjUTi and why it is not SankarAbharaNa. Mohan- come on. You ought to share your knowledge with others.
Folk 4 sounded like being in madhyama sruti and had a limited range of swara-s so Sankarabharana didn't come to mind. Also I equated with Annamacharya's 'rara chinnana' set beautifully in senjurutti by Kadayanallur Venkataraman.

I do not see any shankarAbharaNa chAye at all. The dIrgha kampita rishabha of shankarAbharNa is not seen in the clip. Also there are prayOgasa such as pA#d#Asariga ..sArigagarisa etc which point to only one direction - jhanjhUTi

-Ramakriya

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 04 Feb 2007, 12:18

mohan wrote:
drshrikaanth wrote:I woud first ike to know what is your(And many others) reasoning behind wrongly identifying this as abhEri.
The Ni in the clip is played as SN SN SN (kaisaki nishada). For phrases like GRSN,,, in Abheri this is the same way N is played on an instrument.

I felt this particular nishAda, even though going down from shaDja, was landing between kaishiki and kAkali nishADa - which is a characteristic of brindAvana sAranga; Also I have heard it in many AlApanes.

Of the three nishAdas, I had tough time deciding the first one, but landed on kalyANi correctly ultimately.

-Ramakriya

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 04 Feb 2007, 12:33

drshrikaanth wrote:Yes- only one answer as those who heard mOhan would not hear SuddhasAvEri or vice versa. mOhana is certianly more suitable but I cannot fault dEvakriya/SuddhaAveri.
mOhanakalyANi-no way.

I think a third answer would be OK too for this question - pahADi; for those who heard mOhana notes, it might as well be recognized as pahADi

-Ramakriya

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 04 Feb 2007, 12:36

mohan wrote:I also thought the Folk 5 was mayamalavagowla based and opted for Nadanamakriya. Probably I didn't listen carefully enough on that one!

I chose nadanAmakriya, inspite of kaishiki Ni, because it can take this swara sometimes

-Ramakriya

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 04 Feb 2007, 15:22

ramakriya wrote:I think a third answer would be OK too for this question - pahADi; for those who heard mOhana notes, it might as well be recognized as pahADi

Hmm. You wrote SuddhasAvEri and now you are arguing the case for pahADi :rolleyes:

I had specified to map to the nearest rAga. Those who heard mOhana should have heard bhUp or bhUpAli- why go for more exotic rAgas? pahADi, though based on the same 5 notes as mOhana, often does taken foreign notes(any of the 12 notes can occur) . That is where its essence lies. In such a short clip as this, with not a single foreign note, pahADi is a bad choice.

Here is Lagudi's tillAna in pahADi.

http://www.musicindiaonline.com/p/x/eUQ ... As1NMvHdW/

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 04 Feb 2007, 19:49

ramakriya wrote:Also there are prayOgasa such as pA#d#Asariga ..sArigagarisa etc which point to only one direction - jhanjhUTi

May these phrases are why i thought it was y'kAmbhOji

! Although i felt it was a not an unambiguous fit since the sample seemed to span such a short range of the octave (to my ears). In fact i felt it was indeed a vague fit.

For some reason, i associate the use of the bhashanga G2 in sencuruTTi so strongly that if i dont sense it, it never occurs to be it could be sencuruTTi. In this sample, that is what i find.

Can someone point out pl. how/where i am wrong in this? What are the other unambigious phrases/gamakas with sencuruTTi?

Arun

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 04 Feb 2007, 22:35

ramakriya wrote:Of the three nishAdas, I had tough time deciding the first one, but landed on kalyANi correctly ultimately.

-Ramakriya

Tough for me too. I wrote kalyani and last minute changed to shankarabharanam.

I always used to avoid playing S bhranam varnam(found it tough on violin) when my teacher asked...
learnt my lesson here...

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 04 Feb 2007, 22:52

drshrikaanth wrote:Hmm. You wrote SuddhasAvEri and now you are arguing the case for pahADi :rolleyes:

I had specified to map to the nearest rAga. Those who heard mOhana should have heard bhUp or bhUpAli- why go for more exotic rAgas? pahADi, though based on the same 5 notes as mOhana, often does taken foreign notes(any of the 12 notes can occur) . That is where its essence lies. In such a short clip as this, with not a single foreign note, pahADi is a bad choice.

In folk songs - it is not a digital 0 or 1

I am aware of the anyaswara uses in pahADi. Even though I did not write pahADi,

it is possible for someone to come to that conclusion based on a film song they have heard in pahADi!

-Ramakriya

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 04 Feb 2007, 23:09

I thought it sounded like pahadi - and had read somewhere that the Carnatic equivalent is Mohanakalyani, thus gave that as the answer. Oh well...

ksrimech · Post by **ksrimech** » 05 Feb 2007, 00:30

Iam still waiting for someone to explain how they arrived at jhanjUTi and why it is not SankarAbharaNa. Mohan- come on. You ought to share your knowledge with others.

Murthy garu,
Like Mohanji and Ramprasadji pointed out, I did not hear any SankarAbharaNam at all and I did indeed hear annamAchar's rA rA chinnannA. Actually, when I had downloaded the clips, I randomly clicked on one of the clips. I turned out to be the jhanjhUTi piece and you know for a moment, I was fooled that it was Smt MS singing rA rA chinnannA. But 3 or 4 seconds later I got to listen to some other stuff.

Where are the scores????

Please answer my previous question on maNirangu/Sri/madhymAvathy/brindAvana sAranga. Thank you.