sangitha kalanidhi 2024

[sam]

If TMK is considered to be a good teacher of music, he can be given sangitaacharya award.
.i hope that arrangements are ready to appeal to Supreme court, if Highcourt
allows MA appeal to win.

[ramamatya]

TM Krishna vs conservatives: The price of challenging privilege in Carnatic music

https://www.newslaundry.com/2024/12/09/ ... atic-music

Communism seems outdated. Since they do not know how to fit into the modern world, they are trying every experiment under the sun in various contexts.

Coming to the Carnatic ecosystem, when they say 'privilege', the question is: who is privileged? Not the musicians, (poor musicians), not the rasikas (middle-class), then that leaves only the Sabha people and moneyed patrons. That is class-wise. Coming to caste, if they mean privilege as in forward castes, the music ecosystem is actually open to all - but nobody is jumping into it because, majorly, it is not a salaried profession nor are there opportunities to make big money like in movies.

Next, in the present scenario, that is, after a good few decades of reservation, the definition of privilege has undergone a lot of changes. Oh my dear comrades, please open your eyes. Society has changed. Please don't do this: Araccha maava arappomaa (native saying in Tamil). Please orient yourselves to the present. I have great respect for communists, but these days, they seem to have given leave to their mighty intellect and great brains. The arm chair outlook is not helping. It's disappointing that there are no real insights on which their outcries are based. Sorry, dear comrades, there is a lot of ground work to be done.

[girish_a]

TMK is a cultural vandal

I'm curious to know what you think of his students?

Other than Emmannuelle Martin (she is French), G Ravikiran and Rithvik Raja I don't know who his students are. The latter two aren't the sort that can be indoctrinated, and I don't know what they think of his activism. I'm guessing the French lady isn't interested in his political shenanigans.

[girish_a]

Marx spent more than a decade as a political refugee in London. He knew more about India than even Indian writers.

No he didn't.

[sam]

Yes. HE DID.
Hegel knew a lot about the Indian Social system and village agricultural workers, slave labour and landed aristocracy...though much less in farsouthern india now, it was the predominant system in the Gangetic plain. ..Perry Anderson.
Absolutely nothing special about it for, the system known as Feudalism , prevailed in every country of Europe and Russia...the monarch, nobles, serfs and traders and manufactureres.

Atheism was slogan of radicals then but now Liberation theology is the motivating ideology.
Many may not know that Vivekananda was a radical socialist and his brother took the advice of Lenin. Lokamaanya welcomed Lenin. So did Bharathy.
@shankarank sir, was mentioning Thiruvaaroor. Hallowed for the famous temple. And for MD kruthis.
..
It was also the place of Thiruvaaroor KalyaaNa sundaram Mudaliyar, Kalki's
preceptor, a ripe saivite, great Tamizh scholar and writer of lovely prose, a staunch Gandhian, Feminist, trade union activist, socialist, Marxist.
சமயத்தில் தோய்ந்து , தேசீயத்தில் ஊறித்தொண்டில் திளைத்து நின்ற த்மிழ்த்தென்றல் திருவிக , மார்க்சீயம் நமது நாட்டுக்கு அன்னியமில்லை , நமது மரபுக்கு ஒவ்வாதது அல்ல . அது நாட்டிற்கு உகந்தது.! உடன்பாடானது!உதவிகரமானது! உசிதமானது உரிமையானது! என்று ஐயம் சிறிதும் இன்றி ஆணித்தரமாக எடுத்துக்கூறுகிறார்,”
====================
So, I suppose , it was not all that bad,!
..
The first bourgeois revolution occured in England to establish the rule of money power over monarchy, hereditory lords, and serfs and industrial workers.
The power was further strengthened by colonial plunder through company rule first (1757-1857) and then directly by British government.(1857-1947).
This was fhe period of the TRINITY

After the second world war, America took over as neo colonial master in Asia. And Imperialism.
..
The Global South is learning the sscrets of mass production and technology.
India is a huge market .
The West wants the Global South to be eternally a neo colony.

But dielectics...(the word was coined by Hegel and not by Marx..) inevitably,
disrupts the plan of Globalists. War economy is their trusted solution.
. Hence the Military Industrial complex ( the word was coined by Eisenhower).
.
Recently, the American Election was fought , on the issue of bringing back the Coal, Steel, oil and gas and manufacturing , industries back to USA, specifically to the Rust belt of Ohio, Indiana, North Illinois, Michigan and in West Virginia.

Loss of manufacturing led to job loss, drugs, crime and huge huge national debt.
All these developments are exactly as analysed and foreseen by Marx.
Marx was a student of Hegel but a rebel.

Marx pored over the records of East India company, in the British museum and had access to exact report of officials.
He was a philosopher and activist for the extremely poor industrial labour.
It was the time of Chartist movement in England.Marx closely followed the events of 1857 war of independence.
..
The religious people were not
all, subservient to inhuman exploitation.

The very idea of equality and justice is born out of Religion., though most often the spiritual people, were just ineffective.
Philosoohers have only interpreted the world but our task is to change it. This was the essence of Marx.
.
Think for a moment.

When there is huge plenty in grains, prices fall and peasants are ruined.

When there is abundance of industrial goods, prices fall, loss accumulates, factories are closed, workers lose job and there is no purchasing power.

When govt subsidizes, huge budget deficits cause financial chaos.

This is what Marx characterized as contradiction.
This is the issue in the collective west.

Nothing has been disproved.
So, where was Marx wrong?
Nowhere.
..
Communism is not violence. It is an ideal of great minds.almost a religion.
.
My critique of Marx in Indian conditions is that we need Nationalism, inevitably, religious , tostand up to jihadists and neo global deep state.

secondly, our culture and religion, is already based on Asiatic mode of production, where our vaisya dharmam is not bssed on profit motve.
.
All our saint poets have stressed and taught it. Especially our pontiffs and poets.

All our great modern thinkers and leaders have endorsed the basics.

.Marxist framework , analysis and activism needs a lot of study, motivation to serve the poor and suffering and humility to listen and try solutions.
The language of genuine swayamsevaks is not much different from that of HRSA of the genuine reds.

The Vijayadasami message from Nagpur deals with internatiinal geopolitical realities. Totally against jihadism and its clandestine ally, the globalists.
..
As @nick mentioned, the american lobby has totally subverted the meaning of left and right.
.
It is a sacrilege to view TMK as Left.
He is a pawn of globalists. By the same token, neo nazi agit prop of reds under the bed is ill informed.
Thanks for
.A great post by composer in our forum

ramamatya
From each according to one's ability.
That is what Smt. MSS offered. She used her art to serve society, in the process taking us nearer to divinity, through her music.
.

[sam]

For reference to serious learners.

Bhupendranath Datta: Patriot, Revolutionary, and Scholar.

( vivekananda's younger brothet and editor of juganthar).

.https://vinayaklohani.in/bhupendranath-datta/

[Nick H]

There is no button, but I have to express it...

sam Thank You

[arasi]

Sam,
Like Nick, I read the account and am floored by it. Many thanks for bringing it to us. How little we know! This weaves a whole new tapestry of the times of our venerable ancestors, heroes in their own ways--and the women! From Bhupen and Naren's mother to her European and American counterparts.

Inspiring post, indeed...

[Pratyaksham Bala]

@sam
Thank you !

[sam]

@Nick Sir, Thank you.
@arasi, Madam, Thank you. Am blessed.
P.Bala Siir, Thank you.

[Nick H]

Actually, I am yet to read the article. I hope to do so tonight. But thank you to sam for all the excellent education in his posts.

I never learnt much history, and only later did I wish that I had paid more attention in school. Social and economic history of the 19th century was the subject I had to study for what was called "O Level," and I found it boring. Only later did I understand that it is the foundation of the modern world! So I am grateful for those who bring illumination, even now I am a little bit old. Even those whose prejudices are far from my views and often lead to wrong thinking still have things I can learn from.

Thanks to all.

And we still await the MA verdict!

[sam]

As expected, the High Court has reversed the judgemment just now.
SAD.
But appeal has been made in Supreme court.
The Chief Justice of India Sanjiv Khanna said the petition would be listed on Monday (December 16, 2024).

Additional Solicitor General N. Venkataraman, who made the oral mentioning, said the award was scheduled to be presented on Sunday. However, the CJI responded orally that, if need be, the award could be, recalled.

[shankarank]

The article is informative , but not too surprising, since earlier attempts were all violent reactions which were suppressed.

Even though we talk of non-violent struggle, the naval mutiny was a significant trigger for the Brits to agree to relinquish power and Americans were also prodding them to do so.

.Marxist framework , analysis and activism needs a lot of study, motivation to serve the poor and suffering and humility to listen and try solutions.

It was a reaction to Industrial transformation , which is a shock to humanity, even if humans would have been in awe, and a generalization using cartesian methods and steam engine science born intuition. Irrespective of the intellectual prowess behind it, wherever it was taken, Marxism resulted in massive blood shed and purges. Simple blackbox testing shows, it is a failed ideology.

So, we need to study it again? . Oh the studying thing? . We know all about it!

Oh wait! we need a new article in the Caravan - Marx Misunderstood!

Our Sangitha Kalanidhi , in a true Marxian style, goes into the Library first : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_nrEu43IeE

மார்க்ஸ் மாதிரி நேர லைப்ரரிலே போய் உக்காந்துண்டுட்டான்

After doing lot of travelling and field work, the man begins a new Study

And see what they found! A publisher from early 1900(s), he has added sAhithya to every svaram and citta svaram of vaRnams!! People can check out the episode.

https://youtu.be/v_nrEu43IeE?t=458

ஒத்துக்க முடியாத விஷயமாம்! It seems that is unacceptable!

Wait, did I also hear even for saraLi varisai. That may have been there in earlier books as well.

Those people saw language as one with music, one of beauty in it's own standing, also a sacred sound!! That's what that says. That's now morphed into music ( is rAga only mostly , whether that is really a rAgA or not is still a question) and "lyrics" - which communicates!

அன்று மொழியை இசையாக பார்த்தனர்! அழகுபடுத்தினர்! நம் இன்று வெறுமே படிக்கிறோம் ! அது காலத்தின் கோலம்! நம் சந்ததியினர் உபயோகப்படாத ஆங்கில சொற்களுக்கு எழுத்துக்களை ஒப்பிக்கின்றனர் ! ஸ்பெல்லிங் போட்டியில் பரிசுகளை குமிக்கிறனர்!

Our descendents are competing in spelling bee and winning prices by rote learning the dictionary.

சுதா சேஷய்யன் சொல்கிறார்! காவிரி என்பது காவேரி என்று நீளும்பொழுது இசைத்தமிழ் என்றாகிறது! வேதங்களில் சொற்கள் அவ்வாறு ஆகின்றபடியே! தமிழில் பாடுவதினால் மட்டுமே அது தமிழிசை என்றல்லாம் ஆகமுடியாது!
Dr Sudha Seshayyan was out there once in Arkay pointing out that the tamil word kAviri once it elongates as kAvEri becomes musical or in olden terms: isai-tamizh. Just singing in some words with tamizh does not make it tamizh-isai or tamizh music.

Pallavi singing was perhaps the norm before the Trinity.
CM after the Trinity is saahithyam based. Nearly a thousand, all with religious theme.

If you heard the Kallidaikuricci ( hell! what it is not even in Tanjore belt!) concert of GNB with the tODi pallavi, you will see how the pallavi part flows in an almost madyama kAla 4-kALai which is supposedly a slower temp counting 4 taps. It feels like a Boeing or Airbus, that is course corrected and stabilized for minute turbulences by umpteen sensors driving umpteen servo motors , turning umpteen rudders and fins. This, with an all-rounder musician not even a specialist Laya musician.

பல்லவியை நிர்வகித்து பாடுவது என்பது அதுதான். Sing not say the Pallavi , as demanded by TNS to the Durbaar youngsters, is that.

That sense largely was carried into singing of the kritis as well, one reason we see pAThAntaram variations and slight improvisations in kritis.

Pallavi was not all lost, it's effects were carried into kutchery platform, but in recent times that sense of laya has faded. And it tells us that laya is not merely adhering to tALa or keeping a constant speed.

May be practicing vaRNa svarams with sAhithya implant, will likely allow for gelling of music of the language with rAgA gamakas and the vaRNam's own rhythmic viSranti. Who knows?

[sam]

Smt.M.S passed away on 11-12-2004.
I happened to read a nice writeup on the life of MSSubbulakshmi a few years back by sriramv. Also a fine note on Kalki Gardens.
.
Shocked by the insinuating banter in music academy library between him and tmk. Felt dejected.
https://youtu.be/0IWpqVtKZfA?si=SFLCNJ5n98D1x2kg
Watch "Nine Decades of Reference | The Music Academy Archives | TM Krishna in Conversation with V Sriram" on YouTube

okay in my view my favorite souvenir even today is the 1939 to 42 souvenirs because that is when you are able to trace the rise of s Kalan Ms subal lakmi wow and so in 37 38 you find that she's there as one of the many artists okay and uh you find that there is a group photograph in our collection where she's seated in one corner then in 40-41 suddenly you find that her photograph has appeared on the cover of the Music Academy souvenir cover of the souvenir so it's an advertisement for shakun shakala okay and it is there right on the cover and then when

you too sriram?
.Made me look back at the life of ever great lady.
She was not born rich like tmk. In fact she could not afford even simple things. But even as a ten year girl, she won recognition from great musicians of that era. 1926 !


.1932..she was 16. Got an opportunity to sing in kumbakonam mahaamaham festival The festival had been organized by director-lawyer KMSubramanyam.
She was an instant hit and there was a huge clamour from the public for an unprecedented encore and the next day, she was given primary slot.
Sadasivam as a congress volunteer was in a nearb⁷y khadi sales stall .
Even earlier, she gave a concert in Trichy as a mere girl of 14, and violin mastero Chowdiah, gave her instrument support. Remarkable .
.it was not because of her acting in se4vaasadanam that she became famous. It was due to her singing that she captured public imagination.
That was in 1938.
Sriramv is wondering how just another performer in 1936,(really? Have we not read about the rapturous approval of that first accidental concert in MA by greats like Chembai, Sambasiva Iyer?). shot into such huge fame in 1939.
That was before her marriage to Sri.Sadasivam.
Before her acting in film.

Between 1935 to 1940, she would have given dozens of records, many of them Thyagaraja kruthis and of Shyama sastry. Only now a few of them are available in web.

https://sriramv.com/2010/04/13/ms-subbulakshmi/

Sakuntalai was a joint venture of TSadasivam and MSS
It was a huge success. Not because of the hero but due ro a dozen mesmerizing songs rendered by her. Have you heard her behag?
.
Got married and happily moved into KALKI GARD3NS, a palatial mansion.
In 1941.

https://madrasmusings.com/Vol%2019%20No ... 20with%20R



She had decided to quit acting in films in 1940 but accepted the role as Narada in 1941 to raise funds for Sadasivam Kalki political journalistic venture.
For the next 12 years, Kalki created a new literary era.
.
As a third generation devotee of MS, TS and Kalki, i look back on those glorious years.. how thrilling it should have been! Concert after Concert mostly benefit concerts,..thamizh isai movement, dozens of glorious records,association with great minds like Chithambaranatha Mudaliyar, conquering the concieted snobs of the academy and true to the saying ' innaa seythaarai orutthal, avar Naana Nannayam seythu vidal'. ( the right way to conquer people who do bad things to us, is to make them ashamed of themselves by doing good to them').
The MA did not have its own building. TTK could have easily built it(. Ŵith the help of Mundhra..?)
But it was MS who gave many benefit concerts to raise funds.
She never charged for any of her MA concerts.
.
May I ask? MA honoured itself, by honouring MSS.
.
And the tragedy is that you are allowing stray persons who have made it their life mission to denigrate her.
.
Apart from that, as a grandson of sorts culturally and intellectually, i think of her queenly yet serene and glorious life at Kalki Gardens from 1941 to 1977, a full 36 years, from her 24 th to 61 st year.
.
A drastic change from great fame and wealth to simple living.
.
No sirs. It made little difference to her stature and fortitude.
She continued to give concerts, NOW BENEFIT CONCERTS ONLY
.
From 1977 to 1996, full twenty years, age 61 to 80, a retired life for most ,
.
She stopped giving concerts only after she lost her soul mate.
.Rejected remuneration.
Amazing sense of values in life.
Fame, national and international, great honours in public life, drastic change in financial situation,
Nothing whatever touched the inconquerable souls within.
.
' Little minds..!
hang your heads in shame'.
' kuRai ondrum illai Govinda'.

[kvchellappa]

Good news. Let us hope it is confirmed.
https://www.livelaw.in/top-stories/tm-k ... 0yesterday.

[sam]

the Supreme Court said it remains "mindful of the respect and honour" commanded by the memory of the late symbol of Carnatic music. The court also acknowledged that the articles penned by TM Krishna were "his way of conveying respect for singer".

also noted the petitioner's claim that "the words used... are not in good taste".

"As the award has been already awarded... we deem it appropriate to say Defendant No 4 (TM Krishna) should not be recognised as a recipient of the Sangita Kalanidhi MS Subbulakshmi Award... and is also restrained from projecting himself as a recipient..." the court ruled for now..
..

[shankarank]

.thamizh isai movement, dozens of glorious records,association with great minds like Chithambaranatha Mudaliyar, conquering the concieted snobs of the academy

As regards fights over singing in tamizh, if they had thought correctly on what language meant for music, they would not have gone into such arguments.

If you are not strong on your foundational philosophies, instead only brandish emotional responses, you will continue to be "data" for somebody else's framework - to quote Rajiv Malhotra.

[shankarank]

https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 980598.ece

Seems there is an additional ruling in between from Madras HC that allowed it.

“Had it been the intention of the testatrix that no award shall be conferred on anyone in her name, that could have been expressed in simple language. An interpretation contrary to the plain language of the instrument is not permissible in law,” the Division Bench said.

Hmm.. plain English Vs. the legalese which is a language by itself, reason lawyers mint money don't they? Can't complain in Mylapore - they fund our Sabhas. In olden days, they have even steered the debates in the sadas, we are told

The courts were creative when required for example regarding the challenge to the addition of Socialist and Secular in the constitution:

https://indianexpress.com/article/expla ... c-9692683/

If Plain English stood, all the activist judges will be proved wrong in many cases!!

Folks! here is great evidence that the language communicates and does so very clearly!

[sam]

According to the hoary traditions of MA, the SK Awardee is supposed to preside over the sadas.
A piquant situation has risen?
Keep the money but step down as so far the Sk award has not been separated from MS award.
If MS SK award has been stayed, SK award also is stayed. No.?

[rupavathi]

No.
There is no piquant situation. The SK awardee only presides over the morning conference sessions. The sadas has no president, only a chief guest who presents the SK, other awards and the concert prizes.
The award in question in the courts, named after MS, is instituted by The Hindu (not by the Academy) and is given by default on the inaugural day (Dec 15th) since 2005 to the SK awardee. The MS award is separate from the actual SK and there is a monetary part to BOTH awards. To repeat: Only the MS Award is stayed by the court. There is no bar on the SK itself and it will go ahead as planned.

[sam]

The wording of Apex court is ambiguous. Contempt of court offence may be added .
It would have been a very simple thing for The Hindu to dissociate the Mss award from SK award. And give that award to some other deserving artiste.

https://swarajyamag.com/culture/sc-igno ... e-to-blame

[Nick H]

I do not agree with miscellaneous artists who think that the MA owes them anything, let alone explanations.

I do agree that the MA could have comprised with the living family of MSS and respected their feelings.

I also think that the MA's resources, time and money, are for investing in music not for chasing courts and judgements just to prove itself right. Even if they win, they will not look good.

But they are the self-appointed senior, top, most-important sabha, and I guess they are not prepared to be wrong.

So... the story runs on...

[sam]

the MA could have comprised with

Compromised? No.
Compromising self respect? Everybody knows that Smt.MS was legally wedded spouse of Sri.Sadasivam since 1940.
The marriage tookplace with the blessing and under auspices of patriarch of The Hindu.
Is there anybody in CM world who does not know that Smt.Radha and her younger sister Vijaya were more than dear daughters of MS?
As the swarajya article points out, The Hindu has slipped and pulled MA also down along.

[Nick H]

the MA could have comprised with

Compromised? No.
Compromising self respect? Everybody knows that Smt.MS was legally wedded spouse of Sri.Sadasivam since 1940.

sam, that is not what I was talking about. In The Hindu I read our fellow forumite described as something like "supposed" great grandchild. It shocked me: I thought it was insulting. It is false and playing dirty.
Yes: everybody knows that she was the wife of his grandfather, and completely integrated into the family and its generations. And if they don't know, they should. Please don't misunderstand me!

No, The compromise I meant was that MA should (as I posted at the time) simply have accepted the initial ruling. And, that, on a human basis, they could have respected the wishes of the family. As in, "We don't agree; we think we are right, but we not your feelings and will not give this award in the name of MSS."

You will not find much sympathy for the MA in my posts. It's a self-important, arrogant institution.

But hey, of course, I have friends in that camp too: some of my favourite musicians being involved in the music school and committees. Doesn't that apply to most of us here?

[SrinathK]

The use of the words repeatedly in recent articles by both the Hindu and the Wire about @cienu "Claimed to be the grandson of M S Subbulakshmi" is a condemnable piece of yellow journalistic trash, a deliberate attempt to hit below the belt. One of these outlets (you know who) was also the one published that tabloid piece (now taken down, but not before I read it) that really went too far to suggest that we should not remember M S Amma as a great soul, but also describe her in almost lecherous language. Never have I been this disgusted to see that such news outlets are being allowed to run freely in this country. These people are all very fortunate that Sadasivam mama is not around, or else they would have totally met their deserved karma.

[SrinathK]

A very interesting, almost ironical point made by TMK was about the decline of the sabha culture in recent times especially in smaller cities etc. One would wonder why he seems to have changed his mind, especially given how much he had chosen to boycott the same system for quite a while and had dragged enough caste issues in his writings that harimau even mentioned about how it was affecting some musicians getting visas in the days afterwards. True he did once or twice write in favour about the smaller sabhas before, but now he seems to have changed tune.

[arasi]

The year of the SankaTa * Kalanidhi??

In the sabha culture, except in the case of 'music caringly nurtured in a small but focused way' sabhas, politics (ha!) plays a role, we all know. But mere Sabha politics, that is. This is something else. The to be Kalanidhi on his merits as a musician--though willy nilly, deserves the honor. However, to us listeners, the time-honored award means happiness in seeing such a person receiving the award for what she/he put in as years of dedication to music and in drawing more listeners to CM. Getting more students to this precious art form. TMK is an excellent musician, but then he's other things too, and when he brings in the other world of his into the art form, that's what gives us qualms.

This being a special year for him, as we were preparing ourselves to try and see him only as a musician and nothing else in the context, lo and behold, the big sabha couldn't restrain itself.

Cienu,
As Srinath aptly says: had your grandfather (yes, your loving grandmother's dear husband) been around, it would have been a different story. Alongside, don't forget the pitAmaha of Semmangudi either!

*troublesome

[Nick H]

The use of the words repeatedly in recent articles by both the Hindu and the Wire about @cienu "Claimed to be the grandson of M S Subbulakshmi" is a condemnable piece of yellow journalistic trash, a deliberate attempt to hit below the belt.

Absolutely. These days, concert dates are disseminated by others. We can make our Rs.5-worth of protest by cancelling the newspaper. I don't suppose they'll notice, but hey, it is a gesture.

[sam]

Excellent post SrinathK.thank you.
.
As a genz , i dont see what tmk has done to bring 25-35 age group youngsters to CM. So far as I observe, the characters who physically attend the contortionist circus concerts are the young anti-crossbelt 'moder'n fake music fans who come there more for perumal mrugan stuff than for any MD krutis of
Raagaanga scheme
. Is the audience perhaps meant only for diaspora?.
Socially 'progressive ' pseudo left activists even among the madrasis, it is a fashion now for the westernized sacred threads and their ilk, to don the garb of black shirts and play the role of cheer leader gangs.. the more you bad mouth thyagaraja, the merrier for the other aberrations of tamil society..ulaga naayagan...and his pappu fans.
In these days of star link and livestreaming music, what is so great about both the artistes ( not ' artists') and rasiks tao, to fly from CA / Ny / FL/ TX to Chennai ,to register their presence here, book the seats, leave the seats vacant, and shutout the traditional rather middle class true rasikas .?
Remember, we are all working people, most often from 9am to 9 pm.
Perhaps, you dont like such mere wage earners to pollute your sacred gathering?
I think, the concerts in Navarathri mandapam, Chembai music festival, Ramanavami mandal ..i do not know about the situation in Hyderabad and Mysore,..are more reflective of genuine CM performance and public participation.
The cultural draught in every other town of tamilnad is stifling.
Even Salem, Coimbarore, Truchy, Tanjore, Madurai and Tirunelveli.
Does it survive in some places like pondy.?
.
Truth to tell, vocalists like ra-gaa, sanjay sir, are doing more to bring tamil youngsters to orthodox cm, not TMK.
.TMK has only polluted the kruthi ethos of carnatic music.

[arasi]

On Bengaluru venues:
Along with the sabhas you have mentioned, Sri Rama Lalitha Kala Mandira continues to bring two solid seasons in January and February and other sabhas elsewhere in Bengaluru have several series of concerts, almost throughout the year. Karnataka seems to be hosting quite a number of concerts in other cities/towns too.

Am I right in thinking Andhra Pradesh lags behind? Kerala hosts more concerts than AP?

Sam,
One point: believe me, I do not know of any of us from abroad who buys tickets in order to leave seats empty Far from it. Getting tickets for the stars in CM is a tiring thing for us! Years ago, the grievance used to be relevant, in that they sold tickets which brought in the money for the sabhas but cut down on the number of seats for Chennai dwellers. Now, with so many concerts going on, and with the amount of sabhas, that shouldn't be a problem. Even oldsters among us don't shirk from going to concerts in different sabhas, however tiring it all is.

I also wonder--among the locals, how many rasikas take the trouble of going to the venues when streaming is available with many concerts?

[shankarank]

That's something! From there to here and now - what eventful things!

https://youtu.be/iCFI9J3tsDM?t=163

Nalla TriSra nadai - atItams galore - OVK Kriti - good to play Kanjira for

[grsastrigal]

I noticed an interesting event last week.

One of the main Criteria for SK is to bring

- more rural (chEri) people into music (aka to reach Carnatic Music to non-Brahmins too.)

In that case, the award should go this Gentleman. Iam referring to.

What he did was-- "he was performing a concert for Brahma Gana sabhA at 6.30 PM slot last week in PS School, Mylapore. I happened to visit for 15 minutes just to listen couple of Kritis (of almost all 6.30 PM artists), as Iam exhausted listening to 2 and odd hours concert.

I know this artist, not in a lime-light and not a gr8 performer.

I got a shock of my life that the hall was 50% full. . But all of them looked "different" - not music-lovers as they were talking to each other loudly and youngsters were loitering "idhar, udhar". Half of them did not even turn to the artists to listen. But still the artist was performing "sincerely"

They were "brought" to attend the concert. With PS School made the hall "centralised AC" these "people" were thoroughly enjoying the atmosphere.

I felt sad, he stooped to bring CM to such a low level. Immediately, I thought of TMK. Actually the SK should have been conferred on this gentleman.

He may read this. So I don't want to name him. The only clue, he has strong CM lineage. .....

[sam]

@shankarank
Sir,
Thank you very much for the video.
When was it? Just after 1994 ? So many greats there.
Sri.TS, MSS, MaNi Krishnasamy, Vedavalli, Bombay Sisters, very young tmk ( ) . very very young amrita murali , first prize winner,

[SrinathK]

The weather conditions and hectic work pressures these days along with all the crazy amounts of metro construction and jama are making traveling an absolute ordeal. There's no way I can reach a concert venue before the mangalam is sung, much to my regret. That is one reason why the usual crowds aren't coming. In fact I read an FB post this morning considering shifting the whole season to January because of the rain...

[shankarank]

It doesn't fit the commercial calendar. Though season extends, this is the time the courts and most establishments are having holidays and those ties remain still.

And I fervently hope once that is finished , it will give a huge fillip to this cultural happening. I used to be able to have a snack and tea/coffee 3/4 PM and return back for Dinner, even a tad late from even West sides of the city. That may be possible only with a guaranteed 20 minute ride , or as a result of it, if roads decongest as predicted/marketed. Latter unlikely, but you will have an option.

It is possible that with some core people able to access this from far places, will automatically reinspire more feeder sabhas in the outskirts , where audience from here can now go and mingle there a bit as well.

[shankarank]

Music hangs on to the prevailing ritual culture. We say religious , but it could be other things.

Here in Chennai, it is the legal fraternity and the elite, yes they have some love for heritage, but what actually brings them is the social atmosphere and then the rest happens.

Those who watched the Nagasvaram lecture demonstration will be able to see this. They point out little , little things like the Archaka singing namavalis in rAgamAlika and such in the remote temples. On that note I will share what I shared with my local WhatsApp group:


1. Starting from Bhadracala Ramadasu it is ritual culture in the south. He built a temple and got imprisoned. Even a great bhakta like him considered the importance of doing this. Needamangalam Bhagavathar says it nicely: " Arasan paNattil kovil kaTTiyE AndiyAnargal vAdavURararum rAmadAsarum ( By building temples using King's wealth two greats , MAnikkavasagar one of the nayanmars and Bhadrachala Ramadas became paupers!). SO his pure Bhakti in the composition was not enough even for him.

2. All of trinity had ritual culture in different ways: Thyagaraja svami had elaborate Pooja tradition, their family one, at home. Dikshitar composed on it, profusely so. Syama Sastri worked there.

3. Sri Sadasivam helped produce lot of recordings of MSS , but who will play them? The local temple which had the gramophone player.

4. Madurai Somasundaram was a popular musician in that culture.

There is a recent TNS anecdote with Wow-Tamizha channel. To the best I could understand I am paraphrasing here. Some upcoming musician asks Somu to sing something , what we could as "classical". Somu turns to TNS: " Who is he?" "enna avarukku nalla kutchEri naDakkuda?" - is he getting concert opportunities?. TNS tries to wiggle out saying, "I don't know, you ask him?" Somu chides : "brahmaNa kusumbudanE unakku" - crudely translated as "typical brahminical mischievous talk". And Somu explains further : "To this audience you have to sing Raama, Krishna, kaamakshi" like that to engage them.

Also his Pallavis will have the folk words "Pallaakku", "mUkutthi" and somehow he will bring it to finish line.

Commentary on him in this forum noted: " He was weighed down by his own intellectual sense of the music, and got conflicted with tamizh isai and the like".

He can evoke them once they are brought and seated. But what brought them and seated them? Ritual culture. Once it weakened, his lineage ended. Going back to that now seems impossible.

Who else appealed to Bhakti more than him? If Bhakti is the "root" of it all , where did it vanish? There was a lone fan of his our fellow member @vgovindan who was appreciating him.

5. Current Chennai sabha setup is a sort of a ritual culture that has a social basis , more than religious, but then the prior religious ritual culture was also social in many ways, it was a merged culture.

6. US music culture is around Kids and their extra curricular exposure , a ritual culture, even though it started as a nostalgia of the homeland at the beginning by the diaspora.

Finally here is my input:
To save Ghana raga appreciation it is important to develop laya appreciation, by teaching a core set of rasikas how to keep tALam. Left to itself we saw with our own eyes where it went. pilu and bhimplas!! Even TRS was lecturing on how to construct a pallavi with such ragas.

We need a new ritual culture, that promotes this as a sort of kinesthetic exercise or focus exercise for 40 plus people. Life after 40 is changed, philosophical - so strike them in that vulnerable age - mid life crisis ridden folks, who may be facing the prospect of Arthritis.

On Laya appreciation some Anecdotes: In Sastri Hall, there were two rasikas. One was Sangita Kala Acharya Kalidas, and the other one was an old gentlemen follower and fan of Palghat Mani Iyer. I think I might have seen one of such people once in 1989 or so TVS concert when SrI Palghat Raghu was playing. Holding his walking stick still seated, he appreciated every finer point.

It seems if someone plays pazhani school kOrvai they will get Sabhash from Kalidas, and if they played a PMI one, the other person will say Sabash. Who will replace them?

There is a VVS anecdote available on youtube: Parur Sundaram Iyer asked young VVS sitting besides, to do tAlAm for Pandit Ravishankar. WHen VVS asked him what is there to do tAlA in Hindustani? , Parur replied , "it is the same 128 count right, do the tALam"!

https://youtu.be/4KnE4Ahum6o?t=226

There is a serious "Male" withdrawal from this music and that is one of the central issues and weakness, that allows people like TMK to strike at will and we all then become defensive.

Ra-Ga sisters were forced to pander to Illayaraja tune enjoyers, saying rAgA is everywhere and everything is music , it is all same etc.

TMK himself banks on the new fad ritual cultures to generate cash flow: the new age affluent travellers, art gazers, museum lovers. Yeah this music will be a museum artifact. Justify and balance it with music for the downtrodden. This is fine, you can take the music anywhere but our priority is to protect the core.

In the view of the musicologist, rAgA is the core of the music. Let that be. In an RTP I have heard many claim it is the five stage rAga, that GNB performed that stood out. Then some people have said, tAnam is the central core, since that is unique to this performance. However without the ending laya, it is philosophically incomplete. Nataraja symbol has creation ( damaru or udukkai) on one hand and fire the destructive force on the other - sort of balance.

We heard in the nAgasvaram Lecdem, one such artistes played , only rAgam ( dvijavanti) all night and continues even after the procession has ended and they had to force complete it by playing a small tha-thai-tham.. at least for Sampradaya sake. Ritual again.

@sam is trying to diagnose the problem wrongly and generalizing that supporters of TMK are all these NRI people, who lost all bhakti. Does he know how many people , elites are there right in Chennai and even in Bengaluru?

Even here if you look at the old threads : https://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=23354, the scholarly Madhav Muni Rao was batting for him. I am not faulting SrI Muni Rao, he may have good reasons to consider points raised by TMK, but one should not generalize.

Right or Wrong, it was the NRI built temple organization in Maryland that cancelled TMK's performance.

Bhakti is a dormant force, but human beings are more like Hanuman in cursed state. You need a Jambhavan to wake them up. That is the Agama system that forefathers designed to regiment it.

All Bhakti Literature Saivaite and Vaishnavaite are all absorbed into the ritual culture. Nobody can easily understand them , but they are heard and sung in ritual culture only. Oduvaars are big time participants in temple rituals.

Thyagaraja kritis were absorbed into the ritual culture big time. In fact TMK refers to this in an accusatory tone, "they , the nagasvaram artistes stopped their instrumental music and started playing Thyagaraja krithis".

Andal.. big time!! Margazhi veedhi Bhajans in our temple ended with the Vaishnavite Seva and recitation of the Thiruppavai of the day and Pongal is served after that. You think Maha Periyavar didn't know what he was doing , when he asked ARI to tune it?

In the North there is Bhakti alone may be, because all temple culture was busted. Sri Sadasivam used yukti to tap it by producing the Mira film.

By the way I haven't seen the film. By the time Television came, we were getting to go to college and this might have played in the boring afternoons for grandmas. Who sees old films? kAtrinilE varum gItam was the preserve of intra-spora migrants to remote Indian states for work who carried cassette players with them to kill the nostalgia. Came with wind and went. Didn't know she had anything to do with Kalki magazine until I came to the U.S. , nor any of her other background. There was absolutely no buzz about her in the 90s even in Chennai with the people I came in contact with. Did see her Russia concert on television.

Here already we sort of reduced "Bhakti" as an observable attribute , an anthropological analysis and making our claims based on that. Instead of it's adhyAtmic core, which manifests in the culture though various expressions. We should note that in passing.

We see people attack rituals " why all these rituals sir. we just need spirituality sir.. ". Ellorum Adi Sankarar. Forces outside if you observe come after this vehemently. They almost succeeded.

But the music of north is the Gangi-Jamuni-Tehzeeb culture with art appreciation that is a remnant of the court music. Taj Mehel at the back drop as the symbhol. It has it's soft ritual connotation doesn't it? You cannot claim it is pure art or music.

That is a fallacy.

[sam]

Watch "பக்தியும் இல்லை சங்கீதமும் இல்லை... Track மாறிய டி.எம்.கிருஷ்ணா விருதுக்கு தகுதியற்றவரா? | Dinamalar" on YouTube

https://youtu.be/gxcXwZqe-3g?si=wkC4og5ksb42UBkD

Transcript at
https://4transcripts.blogspot.com/p/pal ... 22024.html

கர்நாடக சங்கீதத்துக்கு ஆதாரமானது பக்தி அந்த பக்தியை ஜனங்களுக்கு ஞாபகப்படுத்துறதுக்கு உண்டான இயக்கம்தான் இந்த சங்கீத ஞானமும்ங்கிறது அந்த பக்திங்கிற ஒரு பெரிய கான்செப்ட்ட ஒரு இன்டிவிஜுவலுக்கும் ஒரு இன்ஸ்டிடியூஷனுக்கும் அகைன்ஸ்டா யூஸ் பண்றது வந்து அந்த பக்திங்கிற மூவ்மென்ட்டே கொச்சப்படுத்துற மாதிரி அது நம்ம ரொம்ப தயவு செய்து ஏன்னா நிறைய மெம்பர்ஸ் ஜாயின் பண்ணிட்டு அவ கேப்பா நம்ம இதுக்கு என்ன பண்ண போறோம் இவருக்கு என்ன பண்ண போறோம் இவருக்கு எதுவும் பண்ண போறதில்ல அவங்களுக்கு அகைன்ஸ்டா எதுவும் பண்ண போறதில்ல அது அது இல்ல இந்த இயக்கம் இந்த இயக்கம்ங்கிறது பக்தி சார்ந்தது இப்ப கர்நாடக சங்கீதத்துல இன்னைக்கு பாடுற ஒவ்வொரு கீர்த்தனையும் இருக்குங்களே அந்த ஒவ்வொரு கீர்த்தனையும் தியாகராஜர் ஆகட்டும் இல்ல பொன்னையா பிள்ளை ஆகட்டும் என்ன இல்ல சீர்காழி மூவர் ஆகட்டும் இல்ல தமிழ் நாள்வர் ஆகட்டும் அவங்க கீர்த்தனை எல்லாம் பாடுறோம் ஆண்டாளோடது இருக்கட்டும் எது நம்ம பாடினாலும் அவங்க என்ன நான் தோழியில இப்ப ஒரு கீர்த்தனை பண்ண போறேன்னா என்ன பண்ணாங்க இல்ல சுவாமிக்கு அர்ப்பணமா ஏதோ ஒன்னு பண்ணாங்க அதுல வந்தது தான் நமக்கு இந்த டோடியாசா வெரி இதெல்லாம் நமக்கு நம்ம அதை புடிச்சுண்டு இருக்கோம் புரியறதா சோ கர்நாடக சங்கீதத்துக்கு ஆதாரமானது பக்தி அப்படிங்கறத நினைவு கூறுறதுக்கு உண்டான அமைப்பு தான் இந்த சங்கீத ஞானமுமே தவிர இவரு....

[sam]

@shankarank
The MaNi krushnaswamy felicitation video posted by you happened in 1996.
Smt.MSS was 80 and Sri.Sadasivam 94.
Smt.MaNi Krushnaswamy 66 , Smt.Vedavalli .61.
.there is not much information about Smt. VEDAVALLI. and about so many lady musicians.
Why not introduce a new section exclusively for biographies ?
.
A part of speech by Smt.MaNi Krushnaswamy.
ஸ்ரீமதி எம்எஸ் அம்மா அவர்கள் சங்கீத தெய்வத்தின் மறு அவதாரம் என்றால் மிகையாகாது அவருடைய கரங்களினாலே இந்த விருதை பெற்றதில் மிகவும் பெருமைப்படுகிறேன்....
சங்கீத கலாநிதிகள் டைகர் வரதாச்சாரியார் போதலூர் ஸ்ரீ கிருஷ்ணமூர்த்தி சாஸ்திரிகள் மைசூர் ஸ்ரீ வாசுதேவாச்சார் முடுக்கண்டாம் ஸ்ரீ வெங்கட்டராம் ஐயர் ஆகிய நான்கு வித்வான்களும் அன்புடனும் ஆசீர்வாதத்துடனும் எனக்கு அளித்த வித்யாதானம் நாததானமே இன்று என்னை இந்த அளவிற்கு உயர்த்தியுள்ளது...
என்னுடைய சங்கீதத்திற்கு ஒரு முழுமையான உருவம் கிடைத்தது என்றால் அந்த சங்கீத கலாநிதி முசிரி ஸ்ரீ சுப்பிரமணியர் அவர்களையே சேரும்..
.
சுமார் 70 ஆண்டுகளாக சங்கீத சேவை செய்து வரும் ஸ்ரீமதி எம்எஸ் அம்மாவை பற்றி இங்கே சொல்லாமல் இருக்கவே முடியாது அவர்கள் எல்லா சங்கீத யுத்தாம்சங்களுக்கும் ஒரு முன்னோடி ஒரு கலங்கரை வழக்கு அவர் இன்னும் பல கிருதிகள் இன்றும் பல கிருதிகளையும் கீர்த்தனங்களையும் பாடம் பண்ணி அதற்கு உரியி பர்பெக்ட்டாக பாடுகிறார் அப்பழுக்கற்ற பிரசென்டேஷன் அவருடையது அவர் ஒரு பூரண மாணவி என்றே சொல்லலாம் அவர்கள் தீர்க்க சுமங்களியாக மாமா தீர்க்காயுசாக திவ்ய தம்பதி இருக்கணும் என்று பகவானை உளமாற பிரார்த்திக்கிறேன்
..

https://4transcripts.blogspot.com/p/man ... -1996.html

[shankarank]

I did hear Vid. Ramprasad's interview. That is his way of having the dialogue and I am not going to get into discussion of that. Each one has a need to approach the subject based on the way questions are framed, noises are made and the way ideas are received.

At some point it is noteworthy that, he himself says the "Bhakti" as a vehicle should not be politicized and used for opposing this and that.

Also my take is, the text of the kritis, themselves can be taken at a philosophical level or for some core ideas , but not characterized as belonging to "Bhakti" theme or "Bhakti" genre based on our "literate" status, by the act of "reading". This is for discussion in a specific context ( which can happen in some places in this forum also, if the context is appropriate) , but should be done with intent of seeking something, not a third party "eye".

The most "apt" place for those things is the proper sadas where the learned perform discourses and seekers (whoever is willing to sit down and give their ears) hear it.

If you read Sandeep Balakrishna , a conservative writer , and I quote : "Only thing literacy seems to have achieved is that people are able to consume yellow journalism and watch movies of all kinds". And I understand he wouldn't be meaning watching movies by itself is anything bad.

We should use our literacy also carefully and not deploy it without thought. Critical theory of alien ideologies may have a different approach.

In any case - now I am violating what I just said - since we discussed sangita gnAnamu bhakti vinA, Sri T.S Parthasarathy's translation puts a "comma" between them and both are not connected by a conditional clause. That is both are to be acquired as separate things individually. There is no discussion of one without the other. Not sure if that changes anything.

However in acquisition of Sangita GnAnam, there is already a worshipful attitude. Even if one doesn't have a teacher, the concept of Guru is not gone. Guru is not merely the teacher , only one aspect of that is so. Those musicians who claim they were not taught, were however not born in Peru or Timbaktu.

We have the concept of 24 gurus in the Datta sampradAya. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dattatreya

Especially to note:

This legend has been emblematic in the Hindu belief, particularly among artists and Yogis, that ideas, teachings and practices come from all sources, that self effort is a means to learning

We take "literacy" itself for granted now. Even within literate environment or so called "privileged" environment it is now "privileged" :

https://www.schwartzreport.net/2024/12/ ... privilege/

[sam]

In this thread, we are discussing a specific award to tmk named after smt.mss.
This particular award was instituted in 2004 and during the last 20 years, there has been no issue because, all the SK awardees held Smt.MS in high regard.
Even in 2004, the memory of MS of 1944, kalki was very distant and hazy for the teenage students of madras. Honestly, hardly 0.1 percent of college students, boys and girls, were interested in carnatic music, much less in mss music. Dr.Kalaam was a reason, how a few of us respected Thyagaraja, Thiruvaiyaru, though without understanding what he was talking about.
.
Thanks to jesudas, senior college students in kerala used to concede that afterall, if (jesu)dasattan himself respects chembai samy, there must be something there ,in CM.. So unlike tamilnad, despite the left ambience there, we were not hostile and contemptuous, may be not too much interested .
Just like all college students in 2000 onwards, the great opportunities of y2k and IT was the only priority. That batch cannot be blamed.
Who ever grabbed that opportunity, is comparatively rich beyond their imagination, even with just vb and html and css. Even today.
There are thousands of genz very well off with just Web technologies.

No need for high mathematics or science, absolutely no need for things like
History,literature, classical music, philosoohy and such.
Just be good in your agarwal. Learn to speak a few sentences in the so called group discussiin. Remember. The IT companies are not recruiting you for your knowledge and technical skill but for your ability to learn skills by yourself, as supposedly revealed by your agarwal score.
Thus do brilliant electronics and communication engg graduates end up staring at cobol code in a virtual jail. This happened from 2000 and still no sign of abating.
Infosys head says, all our technology people should qualify as UPSC.
they will then have some exposure to essential humanities like history, economics, politics, international affairs,public finance and development
Models.
That was Dr.Kalaam.
The recent spectacular feats by DRDO and ISRO are by graduates from third rung colleges and not from IIT.
Are the IITs supplying workers to American companies?

...
We are not atall ashamed. Why should we be?
In a way, perhaps, we are sustaining the national economy.
Most of us cannot even write good english, much less literary english.
For that matter , even good malayalam.
Except in palakkadu, trissur,and trivandrum, the cultural environ has very little visibility of tamil brahmins. It all ended with
CPR Iyer. Narayana guru and SNDP yogam had solved that problem even in 1930.
I do not know about the gen-z of karnataka, telengana and andhra. But i think, the youth there are not as impervious as tamilnad youth in rural and urban areas. I had very good friends among syrian catholics. We can talk of religious and spiritual matters with them occasionally. Can discuss serious literature.
Quite a few elders in my friends'families, though syrian catholic, knew Sanskrit!

Thanks to padhmanabhaswami, guruvaayurappan, varkkala and vaikkom, and sabarimalai and vadakkunathar, and Onam, there is a lot of cultural fusion.
Greater susceptibility to indian classical music. Among the genz, slightly more acceptance of HM instrumental music.
Thanks to swathi thirunaal, acceptance of carnatic music also.

Another great fact is that, despite almost 80% of central kerala is syrian catholic, there is negligible western pop music culture.
Most are more traditional and preserve regional culture than the youth of tamilnadu.

More keralite youth can understand hindu mythology, literature and spiritualism.
Malayalam is almost sanskrit.
Its nouns end sweetly in 'm' and not in 'mu'
.Like Bengali, it is closest to sanskrit.
Narayana guru taught sanskrit for social reform.

. Personally, I am thankful for my years in central kerala.
Reciting Naaràyaneeyam everyday, is very commom practice in majority of keralite hindu families. Church culture adds great beauty, grace and life values there.
Perhaps, they were the original tamils, going by so much if 'zha' there.

.if Thyaagaraja had composed his kruthis in thamizh, things might have been entirely different.
See..CM is entirely devotional.
And so lyrics are very important, more in theme than in prosody.
The musicologists were from karnataka but the trinity were from Tanjore.
What we know as carnatic music is the gift from karnataka and andhra, even the tamil moovar or naalvar or whatever, composed their krutis following the grammar laid down by karnataka.
.thiruppathy was the traditional north border of tamil land.
Even for kerala people, sritangam and thiruppathy are sacred.

Smt. MS lives for ever through her
venkateswara suprabhatham and
annamacharya kirtans and
purandaradas kirtans..
Pointedly, though she was a warrior for thamizh isai, and thamizh language assumed splendid grandeur when sung by her, that was all in her early year when she entered the concert circuit, inevitably, there were just a few tamizh kruthis.
Even her purely thamizh kamba raamayanam record had a rare failure.
Why?
Must have been because, of lack of musical-composition qual8ty. Though of far greater tamizh literary merit.
.
Thamizh songs of GKB, arunachala kavi ,sung by her were huge hits but why did kamban record fail?..music composition.
.


This is not rambling.

[shankarank]

You can tell me it is devotional. Not to an outsider who utilizes critical theories or critical thinking skills taught somewhere. That was my point.

The right response is they don't have the adhikArA to textually parse the works of our composers. Instead , we should assert from eons back, that our composition inheritences are "sacred". That is what actually makes them "universal". Anybody who doesn't challenge the sacredness can subscribe to it and hear it whether they understand it or not.

So it is an open architecture! No viruses or malware though!

It is not about whether my transactional language is tamizh or telugu. I avoided the word Mother tongue, since if I translate that term into my language then Motherhood is divine in my heritage and culture! Which is cutting across tamizh/telugu. So differences should vanish right there. The question of whether I "understand" the composition is immaterial you see.

Thyagaraja comes in the lineage starting from Valmiki. He didn't suddenly appear! His original intent and how he composed and offered to his deity is all immaterial. Whether Valmiki is a historical or mythical also is immaterial. But the concept is there in the initial story of Valmiki. He was given "Ra-Ma" he couldn't take to it. So he was asked to do it as "ma-ra" . Which "means" something else , some other object.

In our tradition letters are sacred! Thyagaraja talks about nAdA as well.

This also resolves all conundrums of all composers including kshEtrayya. What is their original intent , whether they composed on divine or human subjects - immaterial. It has been held sacred and practiced by a community that co-existed with all other communities. Nobody persecuted anybody - see how many social political mumbo jumbos it resolves!. The jAti system ensured coexistence , providing each community their space of association. To each "their" own according to "their" abilities - in plural. There is that collective as well as individual that is balanced. Individual is handled with adyAtmic concept. Collective is handled via dharmic negotiation and social mores.

In the Vid. Ramprasad interview, he missed track a bit there and brought the intent and the Pooja rooms of composers into the defense. No need.

One good thing, I liked that he wore the angavastram around himself. Vidvan representing a tradition is always an inch of a pedestal higher than the questioner , and that is how it should be.

Equality / fraternity my foot. Any musician representing the tradition, who converses in that mode doesn't deserve that respect and will be considered an outsider to tradition and argued against, in that sense.

[shankarank]

@sam let me ask you this. Should be your grand uncle's favorite story/interest.

https://india.mid.ru/en/history/photo_a ... 20festival.

When Indian musicians including MSS who performed there, Sovient Union had not fallen. Were those listeners to be taken as atheists? Or you think they could have held some secret believing?

The fact is they gave the respectful stage to the visiting musicians and sat respectfully - right? They respected the sacredness of the tradition, for those brief moments, whether they really would agree with it or not. May be their atheism helped actually. And it is a geopolitical friendship, I know.

TNS claims all his performances had an RTP , and well appreciated, since they wouldn't understand any language anyways. Cannot even explain in English!

And they might have had a shot of vodka ( their culture!) before venturing into the performance hall.

But it all happened anyways right! This is a point to ponder and good case for a gedanken experiment. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought_experiment

Are we going to say they had a religion called Marxism or Leninism now?

@sam Your favorite musician, your favorite country and I gave you all simple initial conditions. Think! Solve your equations. Common!

Delhiites were lucky that time. I am told there were performances enroute the onward journey in Delhi and also enroute the return journey with travel paid by the government. Not sure if that was also govt. organized.

[sam]

shankarank
Sir,
I think, our posts crossed. Pl do have a look at my rather lengthy post. 1942 is not 1988. My mother is syrian catholic. English literature student under Dr.Kuriakose.
Due to my uncle, i had very good introduction to all his likes and dislikes.
I think, he was right in most things. I had marathi friends who introduced me to vasudev balavantha phadke, tilak and savarkar.
Savarkar was not a religious man. He was an agnostic.
No associate of VVS IYER can be a cheap person. His disapproval was for indian jihadists and western imperialists. Not to English.
..
I dont think any foeigner can really merge himself with CM. It is not RTP. There is no CM without the Hindu pantheon. It is not ritualistic. It is Naaama sankeerthanam , very much like church choir music.
.
As MS said, even her UN concert had mostly Indian if not south indian diaspora audience.
Russians after Stalin....the hero there was Raj kapoor. .,. Despite classics like The Ballad of a soldier and Battleship potemkin
The only good thing was their award to Suchithra Sen.
Saat pake bandha.
Just as no cm or hm guy can really get into
Western classical, no wcm guy can feel, , indian classical music. Just californian, oxcam and paris highbrow snobbery. Hjipie globalist rootless flower guys.

May be rhythm may appeal to the mass in west.
as we have jazz music fans in madras,
Dance and beats, are the primitive origins.

.HM aalap exemplifies pure indian music..
But, without devotional kruthis, there is no CM.
Why does tmk sing krutis?

CM has a definite and clearly defined SOCIAL purpose.
It simply cannot stand foreign faiths. No lungis.
CM is sacred music. rooted in Pre islam indian cultural ethos.
We have nothing against muslim musicians like a Bismilla khan , alladia khan, allauddin khan,.salaamat ali. Their musical base is exactly same as that of CM. Their scales are strictly [b]non-vivadi[/b].
.
Even in moscow concert of MS, it may have been the tiruppukazh piece that got the audience interested.
Standing ovation is just etiquette. /Big brother may have been watching.

Chances are we Indians are true rasikas of world literature but get me a ya k or brit to appreciate the huge wealth of bengali, marathi, hindi,/urdu, tamizh literature. Nowadays, the average brit youth cannot appreciate his own literature even.
I may be wrong but there is no famous wcm composer from england.
The Labour govt discontinued teaching shakesoeare.
.
Congrats for your noticing the [i]geopolitics.[/i]
Jai shankar jai bhagavat
Did you notice? Xi talks of panchsheel.
India reopens embassy in north korea.

Very dangerous but revolutionary changes are ahead.
Sanatanists may lead the red revolution!
Not the red buffoons .
.
"M S Subbulakshmi at Festival of India, Moscow, 1988"

https://youtu.be/uaMgCtVOqos?si=NQkbUVlVGanRH6qh
..
Celebrated doyenne of South Indian Carnatic music, M S Subbulakshmi, was invited to perform at the inauguration of the Festival of India at Moscow (former USSR) in 1988. Following the phenomenal success of this festival, a full-fledged Indian Cultural Centre was inaugurated in Moscow the following year.

M S Subbulakshmi
Vijaya Rajendran and Gowri Ramnarayan - Vocal Support and Tambura
Kandadevi S Alagiriswamy - Violin
K V Prasad - Mridangam
G Harishankar - Kanjira
T H Vinayakaram - Ghatam

Programme itinerary:

1. oṃ namaḥ praṇavārthāya (invocatory śloka - selection from "śrī dakṣiṇāmūrti stotram") - ādi śaṅkarācārya [00:00​]
2. namo namo raghukulanāyaka - nāṭṭa - rūpakam - annamācārya [01:41​]
3. nidhicāla sukhamā - kalyāṇī - miśra cāpu - tyāgarāja [07:32​]
4. tani āvartana [22:54​]
5. hari tum haro (bhajan) - mīrābāi [26:34​]
6. nādabindu kalādi (tiruppugaḻ) - jheñjuṭṭi - ādi - aruṇagirināthar [30:14​]


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.
On a different note.

there are words which imply an idea in itself extremely complex or

an ideal or a vast and abstract generalization and which seem to take, as it were, a being unto themselves or live and grow as an organism would do.
.
Such names though they be 'nor hand, nor foot, nor any other part belonging to a man,' are not all that, precisely because they are the very soul of man.

They become the idea itself and live longer than generations of man do

.

Jesus died but Christ has survived the Roman Emperors and that Empire.

Inscribe at the foot of one of those beautiful paintings of 'Madonna' the name of 'Fatima' and a Spaniard would keep gazing at it as curiously as at any other piece of art;
but just restore the name of 'Madonna' instead,
and behold his knees would lose their stiffness and bend his eyes their inquisitiveness and turn inwards in adoring recognition, and his whole being get suffused
with a consciousness of the presence of Divine Motherhood and Love!

What is in a name?

Can you imagine? It is a classic piece of writing by Vinayak Damodar Savarkar.

[shankarank]

Colonial period, writers and thinkers of any red, blue, green variety did not study other faiths clearly and understand the dogmas underneath. We cannot fault them as the country was experiencing them.

To my knowledge , there are those in Islamic faith that have syncretized with Indian music, and I will give that they might have brought some music from Persia which had a pre-islamic history and still does in the vestiges.

But there are those that don't want to have any dialogue with anything music. Since there is no dialogue, at present there is no conflict there I suppose, at least in matters musical.

You can visit Bharathy's village Kadyam ( and pottal pudur) to see how Women's liberation looks now! All agrahaaram houses are in dilapidated condition and deserted. Figuratively speaking we are all liberated from there. Time moves, but space moves in it's own way, I suppose.

There is a replica , a quantum teleported version of that space in Dakshin Chitra (ECR road) from where TMK released a video performance recently.

I recently found out that there are these people called Druze in Syria, who one commentator mentioned believe in reincarnation. Wikipedia does not mention that : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Druze_in_Syria

There was this MA founding member Basheer Ahmed Sayeed who has a street named along with K. Bashyam. He was in Muslim League and later joined Congress. Was a justice. MA apparently has a building due to his proding as well.

If MSS were driven by any dogma, she wouldn't have performed in front of a Russian audience. She at least simply did it as a duty to the country to represent and serve to project the country's art, one of the facets.

It does not matter what the Russians present, appreciated out of the performance. teriyudO teriyalaiyO ( whether they knew something or not), they sat and allowed their bodies to get impinged with sound of music. Even if it did not cross their ears , doesn't matter.

I am even fine, if somebody does a pure art gazing at anything , including Carnatic music. As long as they sit respectfully in front of it , it should be fine. Who am I to inquire into whether they feel devotional sense or not? My tradition says that is Adhyatmic, Individual.

But I will start calling out any dialogue , that starts getting into the internals of it and start flushing out socio-political issues and manufactured conflict especially that happened during the colonial period and based on any external ideological baggage.

Also too much of this Museum , art fad reminds me of this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_in ... _and_Syria

On the scientific front, the expedition was a success that led to the publication of the Description de l'Égypte, and the discovery of the Rosetta Stone, creating the field of Egyptology.

Hurray hieroglyphs deciphered!!! Egypt "studied" well , But what happened to Egypt?


I mentioned "Egypt" since Indians ( of all faiths!) want to be in denial of what happened to them. May be a third party "eye" that they have been bestowed on them by this thing called "education" , based on anthropology , a science with racist undercurrents, will allow them to see better?

What they did to us, we ourselves do it to ourselves under the garb of "art", "aesthetics". In tamizh avan seydadai, namakkE nAmE seydu kolkirOM!

[Nick H]

I may be wrong but there is no famous wcm composer from england.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronolog ... _composers

There are "household names" of classical music on that list. There are also dozens that I have never heard of. But it it is not an area I've studied. Sounds like you haven't either.

Beware of sweeping statements!

[sam]

@nick
Sir,
My knowledge of wcm is zero. Except that though the same keyboard and keys, it has an entirely different structural basis. ILAYARAJA may know.
.
Kindly note that i had qualified that line with ' i may be wrong'.
Secondly, i am referring to composers. Not musicians and players.
.
Thirdly, Irish and Scottish ..are they brits? A referendum is going on and Eire may get unified again. Ireland and Scotland are predominantly Catholic. Yeats was Irish.
SIster Nivedita and Annie Besant were Irish. Savarkar has a glowing reference to them.

So deep our feeling of gratitude is towards a Sister Nivedita or an Annie Besant for the services they rendered to the cause of our Motherland and our culture, so soft-hearted and sensitive to the touch of love as a race we Hindus are, that Sister Nivedita or a person like her who so completely identifies his or her being with the Being of our people, is almost unconsciously received in the Hindu fold

.The Irish composer and virtuoso pianist John Field (1782–1837) was highly influential in his style of playing, inventing the nocturne and he is thought to have been an inspiration to Schumann, Chopin and Liszt.[11]

Perhaps the most influential composer of the first half of the 19th century was

the German Felix Mendelssohn, who visited Britain ten times for a total of twenty months from 1829. He won a strong following through the Philharmonic Society, sufficient for him to make a deep impression on British musical life. Not only did he compose and perform, but he also edited for British publishers the first critical editions of oratorios of Handel and of the organ music of J. S. Bach. Scotland inspired two of his most famous works, the overture Fingal's Cave (also known as the Hebrides Overture) and the Scottish Symphony (Symphony No. 3). His oratorio Elijah was premièred in Birmingham at the Triennial Music Festival on August 26, 1846. On his last visit to England in 1847 he was the soloist in Beethoven's Piano Concerto No. 4 and conducted his own Scottish Symphony with the Philharmonic Orchestra before Queen Victoria and Prince Albert.[12] A number of British piano students of promise were sent to the Leipzig Conservatory established by Mendelssohn.[

[Nick H]

Sam, I acknowledge that you admitted that you might be wrong, and pointed out that you are. Even I had to Wikkipedia for the information! and the list was of composers. I am no expert either, but one's mind should be open to the arising of music anywhere and everywhere. Carnatic music has its own specialist special areas. You can very easily guess, if you do not know, that, for live music, carnatic music has been my 99.9%.

(Everyone from Northern Island, England, Scotland, Wales and various islands, is "British." It is sometimes referred to as "The British Isles." Scotland wants independence, goodness, even some of the Cornish (the bottom left, ie most SW part of the British mainland) want it! )

Western music has it all. Harmony gives it infinite combinations, and a dimension we do not use much. Let us give credit if not appreciation (everybody is entitled to their personal tastes) for that. At the same time, Indian Classical, HM and CM has absolutely nothing to prove: it stands unique and wonderful in its own right and needs no comparison or measurement against any other. And quite a few from the rest of the world do recognise that.

[sam]

@Nick
Sir, Thank you for your clarification. I wish that I knew some basics of wcm and its greats..near contemporaries of Thyagaraja and Swathi thirunaal.
Happy Christmas.

[Nick H]

Thank you sam!

I don't celebrate Christmas, but always happy to receive good wishes. A very happy and music-full 2005 to you.

I don't know much about WCM either, although I grew up with it and many pieces are familiar to me. I very much regret not having been to more live performances (only seen a few). Concert tickets were expensive!I have a number of divergent musical tastes. One of the people with the widest taste, and knowledge, in music that I have ever met was our late forum member Nageswaran. Fellow member Ragav, who I often meet in concerts, has an extensive knowledge of wcm.

[shankarank]

https://youtu.be/V7H7rvL17Qo?t=6070 -
Paraphrasing (Warning: not exact transcript)
TMK:

"When Dr Pantula Rama said we have to retain the core Carnatic idiom you all applauded. But when first dvijavanti was sung (akhilAndEswari) you all tchu tchu'ed. Whereas when cEtaSri was sung there were no such responses. So, you all have a listening problem"

What a subtle way to culminate his MSS commentary . MSS misunderstood to Carnatic not understood

vaaypE illa raajaa. vaaypE illa! kampita gamagatta nI arttunu solli evallavu Elam viTTAlum , there are no takers in art consumer world. . phew even in erudite assembly of Mecca Lecdem there are no takers for kampita gamaka.

Did I not tell you, the default is always pIlu and bhimplas?

nAn sonnadudaan sari. Whatever I said is vindicated. You ask them instead if they listened to kOTIsvaraIyer all those non raaga raagas from 72. Have them do taaLam! What twists and turns. Arunagiri's re-incarnation. If anybody cannot see how the mystical tamizh words are strung with mystical samskrit words to make a musical language on tAlA, they need to keep doing the tALam for janmas.

Then they will come and do tALam for cEtaSri and it has it's rhythmic offsets, ups and landings in subtle fashion. Sukshmama irukku. Then it doesn't matter if they took in kampitam or not. They were forced to hear it!

If the patient cannot take food , you have to try intravenous methods! kampita gamaka as an "art" artifact is like "kAdarunda Usi", a needle with a broken off eye (shorn of the end hole), to use Gopaalakrishna Bhaaratiyar expression.

Wow, two languages use two different expressions for that , one uses ear, other the eye - fascinating!!

Not only in Musuem , even in Moor Market no one will touch it.