Swara Identification Exercises, Instrumental: Post Answers

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 20 Oct 2007, 09:48

oops...didn't notice that suji ram had let the cat out of the bag.

So here's why the second raga can only be kiravani and not simhendramadhyamam.

the D1 is usually never dwelt upon in simhendra... All phrases end up at M2. For example here are some typicaly simhendra phrases:
G R S N D P M
R S N R S N D P M
D N R N, D P M
etc..

whereas in kiravani you can have phrases like

G R S N D P D,,,

The kArvai in D1 is unacceptable in Simhendra...

Hence the raga can only be Kiravani.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 20 Oct 2007, 09:56

uday_shankar
you mean SM? instead of K

Oh, just noticed you posted the same

This piece was taking me into the song dEvi ni a tunai...

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 20 Oct 2007, 10:04

Technically speaking, the first raga has a "missing" swara before the violinist drops down to the "eduppu" line. Not a big deal but strictly speaking distorts the rAga and hence avoidable in lower kAlam swaras.

I did not understand this.

your input on SM is valuable- thanks. But SM did not even enter my mind.

We are trying to understand the same jargon in this thread all the while. How ragas can be close in uttaranga/purvanga yet we can differentiate.

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 20 Oct 2007, 10:22

Suji Ram wrote:I did not understand this.

As you decoded, the gowrimanohari phrase was:
N S' N D N D P M R, /G M

Here, the last three swaras are R, G M (i.e. the eduppu).

The approach to R should have been
P M G R, G M

and not

P M R, G M

The latter violates the avarohana of Gowrimanohari and hence avoidable in slower swarams. Some slack is allowable in mel kaala swarams.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 20 Oct 2007, 10:24

I read the answers before I even got into doing the exercise.

Good input Uday. That is probably one of the illustrative points that Arun wanted to convey about the second raga. Now I am curious about the reason for the Gowrimanohari part of the clip? Is there a similar thing happening there as well.

I now recall that when we discussed Chakravakam, Arun mentioned about a possible experiment along these lines,

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 20 Oct 2007, 10:37

Suji
You beat me to it! I got the Kiravani but due to the incompleteness I was hesitating. Good work!

Warm welcome Uday!
Thanks for that clarification on Simhendramadhyamam which was what was confusing me!

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 20 Oct 2007, 10:47

P M R, G M

The latter violates the avarohana of Gowrimanohari and hence avoidable in slower swarams. Some slack is allowable in mel kaala swarams.

Thanks for your explanations.

it must be really hard to strictly adhere to aro/ ava in constructing korvais- one has to follow the tala at the same time.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 20 Oct 2007, 19:13

thanks guys (especially uday). Golu commitments (yes sundal, snacks

) are keeping me busy this weekend.

It looked liked the sample turned out to be more educational than I imagined. Thanks to Uday - I did not know the implication of the kArvai on D1.

I was trying for us to get familiar with the different feel of N3/N2 in "similar" swara combinations - e.g. N3D1 vs N3D2 here. I was looking for longer samples with more combinations (PDP, SNDP etc.) - but I couldnt find them readily and I didnt search hard enough.

Arun

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 20 Oct 2007, 20:45

arunk wrote:I did not know the implication of the kArvai on D1.

Hey wait, it's just a "soft" rule at best. I may have even made it up, for all we know

. So verify with experts/teachers, please. Don't quote me on it! There is really no law against a D1 kArvai in SM, I wouldn't play it under most imaginable circumstances, that's all.

Good job starting this very good, constructive exercise. This thread has tremendous growth potential.

cmlji,

Thanks for the warm welcome! Not since Lord Rayleigh has someone of such experience sparred so effectively and commendably with sharp spring chickens a fraction of his age!

(Now that's inspiring, my fellow rasikas! Kudos to cmlji!)

suji ram

Even when creating the most intricate kOrvai's, raga grammar must be strictly observed and all good artistes do so unless there's some accident which happens occassionally even to the best of them.

The present case of omitting R2 in gowri.. was not a kOrvai but the simplest type of lower speed swaraprasthara. So the grammatical error is not warranted. It was perhaps absentmindedness followed by a sudden panicky reaction on observing that the tala has arrived at the spot

.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 20 Oct 2007, 20:51

Uday
We need you here as a visiting professor. Time permitting give us a practical demo of the principles that you talk about on your 'new-fangled' instrument

Arun
Thanks for making this navaratri exciting through your thought-provoking exercises and discussions. Let this Vijayadashami be the 'akSharArambam' to us for more scholarly and innovative lessons on our precious CM!

and Dear Dear Rasika Friends
This is an open invitation for you all to participate and join in our discussions and make this truly into a 'CM Vidyalaya'.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 20 Oct 2007, 21:15

was trying for us to get familiar with the different feel of N3/N2 in "similar" swara combinations - e.g. N3D1 vs N3D2 here.

my focus too was only on that

Yet it turned out interesting with uday shankar's input on both the phrases.

I'm excited that this thread has taken us a long way in understanding swaras-phrases-ragas and much more

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 20 Oct 2007, 22:01

A couple of discussion points on the interesting tidbits Uday offered.

a) So, other than the D kArvai at the end, what distiniguishes SM and Kiravani in that little snippet. When Suji said she was not even thinking of SM, is it because of the kArvai or something else in the prayoga or gamaka that distinguished one from the other. When I listened to it, I thought it can be either one. Again it is too short a clip to make any major conclusions but just checking if there is anything else to observe here in addition to the kArvai on D.

b) On the first clip, I do not know anything about the violation of the grammar, but while listening it did not sound odd. In fact, it had a good effect, a little conflict creation and resolution ( the momentary stop there when you expect the sequence to continue and then pick it back up ). I thought such things are done commonly, meaning, come down in arohana, do not go all the way down to S, have a little gap and then execute an Arohana proyogam.

If it is a relatively short passage, now this is my own personal taste, one can create such a conflict first and then the second time without the conflict just for variation and contrast. Again I do not know whether experts will laugh at that or not. I am now reminded of the article in the other thread where Ramadoss Menon says "Those who violate the grammar find themselves dubbed as gadflies and mavericks. And rightly so."

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 20 Oct 2007, 22:41

vasanthakokilam wrote:When I listened to it, I thought it can be either one.

I too thought it could be either one. So did cmlover. Even the so-called "kArvai" at D1 is almost non existent if you think about it. For example, while listening to it, it is very plausible to mentally extrapolate the sequence like this (extrapolation in bold italics):

S R G R S N S R- G R S N D P M2

thereby completing the SM!

Therefore it is truly an ambiguous sequence. But wait! Still, there is something in the lakshya (warning! my lakshya gnyanam is poor) that seems to indicate kiravani, even to me. If Suji Ram could search his/her brain and tell us why exactly he/she intuited that it was kiravani, it would be useful.

Analytically speaking, I could suggest that the gamaka laden G2 as in ...S R (rg) R... is more indicative of kiravani. Simhendramadhyamam follows more scalar dilenation with the G2 being played more "mottai"...

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 20 Oct 2007, 23:25

I guess that Suji decided based on the resemblance to the phrase in 'Devi nIyE thuNai' as almost I did. Whereas most of us match ragas to soundbytes in our memory to lyrics we heard , you Uday, on the otherhand listen to the pure melody (in notes?) which is what we are aspiring to learn. Music is a language to be learnt independant of the language of the lyrics. Somewhere after learning the saraLi varisai we forget this language and immerse ourselves into the geethams and kritis losing track of the alphabets. These exercises force us to think at the molecular level than thinking through qualitative analysis through pattern matching to lyric phrases in our memory banks. Once we force ourselves into thinking structurally there is a whole new way of enjoying CM independant of the 'linguistic bonds' as well as the associated chauvinism! Thanks to you guys for guiding us into making these baby steps!

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 21 Oct 2007, 02:44

Interesting. Of course SM for me was never a possibility

I wish I was in the same boat as you guys as I want to know if my perception would be led me towards kIravANi or SM or neither.

Uday: regarding gamaka laden G2 for kIravANi vs. SM - makes sense. Is the flatter G2 in SM because it is usually preceded/followed by a M2 which is given gamaka? That compared to kIrvANi it is not uncommon for M1 to be shown flat in dhIrga.

I am (as always wildly) hypothesizing that if you have swaras X and Y appearing as XY or YX (i.e. X = G, Y = M here), then in a context where one is given gamaka, the other would typically be flat. For example, you have the following in ascent:
R1 G2~ (tODi),
R2 G2~ (kharaharapriya and janyas)
but R2~ G3 (Sankarabharanam, mohanam).
R3~ G3 (nATTai)
R1~ M1 (sAveri (?)

Thus G2~ M1 in kIravANi vs G2 M2~ (SM)

Of course I dont imply this for every instance of such combinations, but "usually" or "more typically".

Arun

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 21 Oct 2007, 03:25

Is the flatter G2 in SM because it is usually preceded/followed by a M2 which is given gamaka?

I do not know about SM but in Shanmukapriya there is gamaka on G2 inspite of M2. In a small piece(SP) I learnt I play gamaka on G2, and some places I hold it flat to get gamaka on M2. May be both takes place.

Also I did have gamaka on G2 in the hEmavati piece.

The "R2G2M2" combo vary a lot in ragas which have this. It will be nice if someone can demonstrate how they differ if at all.

I guess that Suji decided based on the resemblance to the phrase in 'Devi nIyE thuNai' as almost I did.

Kind of Yes as I mentioned earlier.
But I intuitively guessed that Arun was not looking for M variation in the two phrases he asked us to compare

(intelligent me) besides there was no M in second.
Had it been posted as stand alone clip it would be a different matter.

Now when I listen to SM and Kiravani I can only tell difference with respect to "M".

But there is something about the D1 in the clip which is very distinctly brought about by the artist who really knows how to bring out the kIravAni I guess.

I listened to MSS "dEvi nIyE tunai" with swarakalpana but nothing about D1 there. And a piece in SM which had lot of pauses at P and M and not at D.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 21 Oct 2007, 03:39

I wonder if the presense of N3 vs. N2 (somehow) affects the nature and importance of G2 and M2 in the case of shanmukhapriya/SM as well as hemavathi/dharmavathi. My guess is in shanmukhapriya G2 may take more gamakas because N2 does. In SM, G2 is flatter but M2 may work in tandem with N3. But this is based on an unreliable theory that consonance (sa-pa, sa-ma) does play some role even in our music even though it is very different and not as important as in WM

Arun

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 21 Oct 2007, 03:43

arunk wrote:I wonder if the presense of N3 vs. N2 (somehow) affects the nature and importance of G2 and M2 in the case of shanmukhapriya/SM as well as hemavathi/dharmavathi. My guess is in shanmukhapriya G2 may take more gamakas because N2 does. In SM, G2 is flatter but M2 may work in tandem with N3. But this is based on an unreliable theory that consonance (sa-pa, sa-ma) does play some role even in our music even though it is very different and not as important as in WM

Arun

I was just thinking the same, how about with M1 ragas?

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 21 Oct 2007, 07:52

arunk wrote:I wonder if the presense of N3 vs. N2 (somehow) affects the nature and importance of G2 and M2 in the case of shanmukhapriya/SM as well as hemavathi/dharmavathi. My guess is in shanmukhapriya G2 may take more gamakas because N2 does. Arun

I believe this though has merit (without getting too carried away by any generalization

).

As far as I am concerned, the jury is still out there in the case of kiravani v SM. Given that suji ram was using "extra-musical" logic, all the information on this is tainted by bias. We should try playing this clip to rasikas entirely uncorrupted by lakshana awareness and take a poll.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 21 Oct 2007, 09:05

Arun,
Coming back to your original question. This clip doesn't really demonstrate kIravani-gowrimanOhari similarity either (in terms of swaras alone-not gamaka) if that was your original intention-since both these raga actually share pUrvanga. There is a mel stayi portion in kIravani no doubt but it doesn't match well.
Your question was where do these ragas differ in.

if you had chosen clips spanning pUrvanga/uttaranga phrases in both then your question is more valid in asking where do these ragas differ.

offcourse as with other exercises I went about decoding first and trying to understand what you intended -since we have been talking the same in the past posts.

Now offcourse the discussion is steering to SM/kIravani. Interesting though. But my mind is already fixed on kIravani tune, hard to get out of it to understand if it could be SM. we need another clip to demonstrate this.

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 21 Oct 2007, 09:21

OK. I will play the flute to demostrate the overlap. Couple of questions:

1) What's the best place on the web to upload clips for free ?
2) And while we're at it, what's a good recorder ? Doesn't have to be free. Willing to pay nominal price

.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 21 Oct 2007, 09:30

Clips can be uploaded here

http://www.sendspace.com/file/ov56cr

recording can be done using just sound recorder or audacity(-free software)

OK. I will play the flute to demostrate the overlap.

Post it as a quiz for us.

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 21 Oct 2007, 09:33

Uday,

I tried uploading on www.boomp3.com, and liked it better than others like sendspace and box.net

Users can listen online, without downloading too.

http://static.boomp3.com/player.swf?id=841f5e96fb86

http://boomp3.com/m/841f5e96fb86

For eg - check the above links, and you'll see player button/window. I find this easier than downloading and playing with media player.

-Ramakriya

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 21 Oct 2007, 09:52

OK. I will play the flute to demostrate the overlap.

Yes, please do. As Suji said, make it an exercise and during answer discussions the relevant points can be brought out.

(I did not know you are a flute player. Cool...Do you play the chithra veena too?)

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 21 Oct 2007, 10:20

Here's the demo. I am not very satisfied with the second raga but what the heck...I haven't practised anything for a decade! This is just for fun.

http://www.sendspace.com/file/7w58k1

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 21 Oct 2007, 11:06

Very nice! This is a real demo with what I understood from your posts.
First is kIravani and second is SM
I noticed the S'R'G'R'S' in SM more flat on G. The first one is gamaka laden very similar to I heard in the other clip.
Even without the knowledge of how swaras are played the kIravAni stands out from SM. I think it is more by familiarity.

Hope I am right.

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 21 Oct 2007, 11:14

Are you sure ?!

Hint: I actually threw in a misleading "overlap" !

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 21 Oct 2007, 11:23

Uday_Shankar wrote:Are you sure ?!

Hint: I actually threw in a misleading "overlap" !

I think in the raga 2 you slightly gave a gamaka intentionally on G later? and probably in raga 1 too some overlap.
well, I did not look at the entire phrase. the endings look similar or did you overlap those too?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 21 Oct 2007, 11:30

Very nice sounding demo, Uday. I will stay on the sidelines and learn from the discussions.

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 21 Oct 2007, 11:44

Suji Ram wrote:the endings look similar or did you overlap those too?

Hint 2: I tried to make the endings distinctively different. I guess it wasn't good enough!

. What's the very last note in each raga phrase ?

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 21 Oct 2007, 11:49

Uday_Shankar wrote:
Suji Ram wrote:the endings look similar or did you overlap those too?
Hint 2: I tried to make the endings distinctively different. I guess it wasn't good enough! . What's the very last note in each raga phrase ?

It seems like you ended with P(not clear) in raga 1 and D~(more pd pd) in SM. Is that misleading one. I think I noticed earlier on but did not pay attention.
If I am wrong I will join VK onto the sidelines

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 21 Oct 2007, 20:52

The first one is simnendra madhyama - the take off point ( p d n s r'..) exactly how my mother takes of the shlOka mANikya vINa

- Apart from that note d is kept quite short -That is a feature of SM , isn't it? Do I hear an anuswara of madhyama towards the end, or is it just my imagination?

For kIravANi, you have nyAsa on da - and the common phrase I hear between the two is the 's r g r s s '..

-Ramkriya

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 21 Oct 2007, 21:08

Ramakriya,

Right on all counts ! You're dismissed

.

(BTW, the anuswara of madhyama towards the end is the key to SM. Alapanas should keep coming back to it. I should have played it more clearly)

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 21 Oct 2007, 21:42

Thanks a whole lot Ramakriya and Uday. Your participation and valuable input is much appreciated by us beginners and dabblers!!

Since this is a kindergarten kalalaya thread, could you please write down the summary of the analysis with a swara break down so beginners and dabblers also get the benefit.

Also, a few questions:

1) Is the objective still to show that the same swara sequences are really unambigous?

2) Is this how professionals strictly play it?

3) What is a 'nyAsa'?

4) Why do you two call that madhayama 'anuswara' when it is indeed part of the SM defintiion?

5) Given that we are touching on 'ma', I am not really sure where that leaves the 'same swara sequence' as the base. The execution of 'da' was interesting as a tie-breaker but you seem to have lowered its significance as a tie breaker a bit.

6) Ramakriya, can we reliably take it that you pegged it as SM based on the 'short d' and touching on Ma and NOT the swara sequence itself?

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 21 Oct 2007, 21:55

so what was the misleading overlap?. From the ending it does look like the first one should be SM and second one kIravani but then I am confused about the G gamaka now

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 21 Oct 2007, 22:09

1) Is the objective still to show that the same swara sequences are really unambigous?

No actually I wanted to show that they could be ambiguous. For example, structly speaking if you ignore the M2 at the end of the SM, it could belong to either raga. Of course my sense of lakhsya directs me to play such phrases only for SM. Suji, for example, is highly predisposed towards Kiravani and so thought it was kiravani (this might not have been the case if I had clearly played sequences like P D P M2 G R S).

2) Is this how professionals strictly play it?

This is one way among lots of ways

.

3) What is a 'nyAsa'?

A sort of "resting point" swara during the course of the alapana.

4) Why do you two call that madhayama 'anuswara' when it is indeed part of the SM defintiion?

Because, although it is part of the Ar/Av of the raga and I am intentionally playing it, the M2 is usually played as PM (as I did) and rarely as pure M2. Hindustani music has more of pure M2's.

5) Given that we are touching on 'ma', I am not really sure where that leaves the 'same swara sequence' as the base. The execution of 'da' was interesting as a tie-breaker but you seem to have lowered its significance as a tie breaker a bit.

I wasn't thinking too hard to create something profoundly illustrative ! The key points are:

a) The SM sequence is ambiguous note-wise (but not lakshya-wise) and could swing either way until the "anuswara" M2 right at the end.

b) The Kiravani sequence is ambiguous note-wise all the way (i.e. there's no madhyama in the entire sequence) but clear lakshya-wise due to the oscillating "nyasa" swara D1 at the end, which never happens in SM.

Last but not the least, these are all amateurish efforts so don't take them too seriously! No guarantees!

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 22 Oct 2007, 00:37

i did not get it right as both felt like SM to me. First was obviously more as I could perceive the ma at the end. I think once I locked on to SM, it was hard to "unlock" for the next piece even with the da nyasa for me.

Arun

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 22 Oct 2007, 01:04

Uday,

Here is a kalpana-swara portion of a simhendramahyamam krithi by TNS where he seems to have used da as nyAsa fairly frequently.

I thought da as nyAsa did not seem that "unpalatable" to my ear when I hummed it but then I was not at all sure and what you implied did seem to make sense. But I guess da as nyAsa is not taboo in SM, although it may perhaps take different shades/gamakas (?)

http://www.sendspace.com/file/9c6ts7

Arun

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 22 Oct 2007, 01:37

But I note that almost all of the dhaivatam nyaasam occur in avarOhaNa ... There must be something to it (:thinking)

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 22 Oct 2007, 01:49

Plenty of places where D drops from S.
May be SD, is typical of SM unlike ND~ in kIravAni ???

Any TNS sung kIravani around?- we can then compare how the maetro has differentiated

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 22 Oct 2007, 02:15

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zk-Sq0qYW6w

here's a kIravAni for comparison by TNS

I note nyasa on N too

I did learn this kriti (vocal lesson)

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 22 Oct 2007, 02:25

Arun,

Very bad example! Only adds to the confusion. I would never analyze clips of TRM, TNR, TNS or BMK for trying to learn about strict raga grammar. That too from fast-paced swaraprastharas!

I would suggest only clips of DKP/DKJ, particularly alapanas, for learning about strict raga grammar. Otherwise there is no guarantee of strict adherence.

I think it is pointless to comment on the clip but I don't think the D1 can be called nyAsa in this context. It's just a landing point for a certain sequence of extempore korvai-based swaras, that too with plenty of artistic license in Ar/Av too. That's in the nature of the genius of TNS, but amateurs like us shouldn't be analyzing his music.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 22 Oct 2007, 02:36

Kumaran Santhanam lista raga called 'shuddha simhendramadhyamam' which is dhaivata varjyam. Perhaps Lakshman can throw more light on it.
See also
http://www.geocities.com/promiserani2/ragass.html
On the other hand MD's sumadyuti does use dhaivatam as a nyasa svaram (refe to kAmAkShi kAmakOTi....
TNS does use liberal daivatam in kIravANi indeed...

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 22 Oct 2007, 02:41

Uday
Your point is well made! Raga LakShaNa cannot be studied from fast-paced kalpana svara passages. Only aalaapana will bring the true nature indeed!

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 22 Oct 2007, 06:18

Uday,

point (sort of) taken - but I would like more evidence as to why D1 as a nyasa is disallowed in SM i.e. where the source of strict raga grammar is. I think you implied earlier that when you played you could not justify any use - is it possible to get more info (say from your teacher, other experts)? I am not saying your point is invalid etc. - just want to know more corroboration.

Note: I am not saying D1 is allowed - certainly not qualified for that. Just want to know more as to why it is disallowed.

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 22 Oct 2007, 06:27

Raga LakShaNa cannot be studied from fast-paced kalpana svara passages. Only aalaapana will bring the true nature indeed!

Is that because during kapana swaram, artists take more liberties with the raga? That will be a surpise to me that such liberties, even if taken, are taken only in kalpanaswarams and not in alapana where there are some fast paced presentations as well.

Also, isn't the raga akshana all codified in the numerous songs of the Trinity and others? And that is essentially what we have as authoritative sources for such issues... Like your reference to MD's treatment of sumadyuti for dhaivatam nyasa usage.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 22 Oct 2007, 06:34

the raga contour is more well preseved in an alapana. I dont think KS allows you to simply violate obvious grammar rules and are thus not good for learning about raga etc. They are just not as good as krithi and alapana.

But I agree to the point Uday makes that artists of TNS calibre can afford to take more liberties and still deliver.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 22 Oct 2007, 06:39

On second thoughts, forget it. I think what Uday said in general (i.e. D1 being not used in SM like in kIravANi) seems to make sense and I can see why it is a general good constraint to follow in SM.

Besides perhaps we are getting too technical here for our overall objective for our thread.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 22 Oct 2007, 06:54

Sounds good Arun. I agree that we will keep the objective of the thread to the original intention namely 'increasing swara identification skills for dabblers' though small detours like SM and Kiravani etc is quite fine and have been quite educational.

Time for the next exercise then?

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 22 Oct 2007, 08:35

VK
Don't quote me on this

As Uday pointed out during kalpanasvaram the artiste has to compromise on the korvais which will force him to land on non-nyasa svarams and even violation of the grammar of the raga occasionally. I have observed it by studying some of the svarakalpana of even famous artistes. Folks like KVN, TRM etc would never slip up. On the otherhand raga aalaapana is essentially analog in comparison with svara prastaara which gives the route smoothly to escape without violating raga lakshana. Further we can easily detect the violation during aalaapana in comparison with fast svara kalpana.

In addition to ancient manuals our raga characterization and prayogas do come primrily through Trinity simply because they only had an unbroken shishya parampara. Unfortunately these have not been properly codified. We have to rely on the statements of 'recognized' experts and lecdems or simply take their word.

I was listening to MLV's nathajana which had a superb aalaapana of simhendramadhyamam. While she was mostly traversing uttaranga and taara regions I was surprised to see her not staying on dhaivata at all! She was using it just as a stepping stool to get through from S' to P with nishaadam as a landing point and also lots of pratmadhyama anusvarams. I noticed these only after Uday drew our attention. All along we were obsessed with identifying the difference between SM and shanmugariya and never worried about keeravANi assuming that the pratimadyamam will take care of the differences. Our ancients have indeed set checks and balances onall ragas so that they can retain their individuality even if svaras are the same!