Comparing mridanga and tabla vidwans

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 28 Sep 2009, 20:43

I have attended ENOUGH concerts in which Ustad Zakir Hussein playing Tabla has matched & excelled in many cases the Mridangist in the concert for me to say that if a serious comparison has to between made, the BEST should be compared & not practicioners of either Carnatic or North Indian music; For that matter there have been many Jazz drummers like Morelli who have duplicated almost all the moves of any mridangist; The TIMBRE of the instruments have to be taken into account as well as the taste & experience of the listener. But these are complicated areas & physics of the instruments on accoustic & other considerations have to be folded in. Thats why I contend observations of persons like Subbudu who know the stuff but are more interested in selling more copies of their newspapers should be weeded out...Apples are Apples & Oranges are Oranges....VKV

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 28 Sep 2009, 21:59

It is doubtful whether there is any tradition for solo in mridangam

Shivdasan, I think a lot of us were surprised by the above statement. Is this really true?

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 28 Sep 2009, 22:44

I agree with vkv.

When we judge mridangists and tabla players, side by side, we are very often judging a mismatched, unprepared, organiser's attempt to sell the most seats. I have often seen tabla players baffled by the carnatic thani format, and doing stuff like playing for half an hour when they should have played only one or two cycles. Some organisers has taken what they see to be a big name, combined it with the carnatic percussionists already on their list, without ever enquiring whether or not the tabla artist is familiar with the the Southern format and repertoire. Frankly, except to the Western kids who know nothing of either, it is an embarrassing failure --- and I wonder if the poor tabla players ever come to know that.

Zakir Hussein is completely at home with the Southern format, and will respect and follow the mridangist as much as he is capable of blasting out into the lead in his own solo show, and I share vkv's admiration and respect for him. Simply, he knows carnatic music and, when that is what is called for, he plays it and does so superbly.

I don't like to talk of mridangist slaying tabla artists, or tabla players slaying mridangists: it is a case of different repertoire. We do not talk about carnatic violinists slaying Hindustani violinists, or vice versa --- but we celebrate those who master both.

Shivadasan; interesting post, much stuff there that I know little or nothing about.

Then Paanan... the drum kit originates from when a really mad maharaja cut the pakawaj into five or six pieces! Point noted about the complexity thing too, although it seems that playing complex patterns is sometimes what it is about. From my novice standpoint, whilst I appreciate that the intellectual complexity is there, it is the musicality of the performance that I seek. This, in another thread, Arvind is able to talk about the combinations that Easwaran played, whilst I just enjoyed the music. There are mridangists that only really appeal to the numbers people. (Of course, I'm envious of Arvind's understanding too...)

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 29 Sep 2009, 00:09

Let me give a concrete example of a tour of USA by the great Ravi Shankar in the seventies. He had Palghat Raghu on Mridhangam & his usual Tabla accompanist. Because of my regard for Palghat Raghu(who stayed with us) & because Ravi Shankar liked South Indian food & was an expert(liked Mor kozhambu etc- my wife cooked the food for him& Raghu & attended close to 45 days at Licoln Centre& an equivalent no. of concerts in Carnegie hall in NYC. We attended every one of the concerts behind the stage! I attended the discussions about THE CONCERT. Because of the unfamiliarity of the great Tabla artist the THANI had to be done in a piece which was either adi or rupaka thala with Sama Eduppu. For Raghu's greatness it was a come down of huge proportions. However this is what happened: Raghu walked on to the stage with his usual Khadi shirt, Thundu & veshti in his introvert modest manner. The Tabla player with his pointed shoes & majestic, colourful Moghul Shah Jehan type appearance & folded palms appeared walking majestically. The audience of close to a thousand stood up & cheered him! Next when he tuned the Tabla with his silver HAMMER JUST TAPPING on the Tabla there were cheers & a standing ovation before anything happened. Ravi Shankar the genius he is milked it by shaking hands with the Tabla player with his inimitable smile & there was another standing ovation! When the THANI happened Raghu duly "demolished"- in tune with sentiments of some in this forun- the Tabla player because HE WAS PALGHAT RAGHU. However it was the Tabla Player who received the MAXIMUM APPLAUSE after every round!
How do you explain this?
1) You can accept the theory of the famous genius, sage & expert MCENROE that anything that is a public spectacle is ENTERTAINMENT & STATISTICS mostly favours the Least Common Deniminator.
2) If you are NON-JUDGEMENTAL like me you say :people have spoken" & just admire the GREATNESS of Ravi Shankar & Raghu & thank the almighty you are able to admire the genius & were lucky to witness it.
So to me the bottom line is: There are many ways to "skin the cat" & negative statements only expose the ignorance on the part of the person MAKING THEM.....VKV

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 29 Sep 2009, 01:07

I don't think it is right for any performer to humiliate another, whether it is by clothes, ego, or musical ability.

You can, of course, say that their reputation and livelihood depend on it, but I have taken it as a lesson that I have seen the London-based musicians, such as Balachandar and Balu Raghuraman, and the ghatam brothers, play for top names one day and small children the next

I don't know what it is about tabla and foreigners (excuse me using the word <blush>) but, there is something about tabla that woos them, and a simple line of tekka produces cheers and applause which, to me, is just embarrassing. I don't remember if I was like that when I first started attending HM concerts; maybe I was. I am the last person to try and work it out, because my preference is so firmly with the mridangam --- but tabla does have that effect, and I guess we just have to live with it.

I recall a London TVG concert in which he spotted a tabla player, known to him, in the audience, invited him on stage and rejigged the post-interval performance as Hindustani. Whilst I was initially disappointed (I had been loving the first half), I was blown away by the music that ensued, including a fantastic second thani, in which the tabla player and the mridangist played wonderfully together.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 29 Sep 2009, 02:15

I don't know what it is about tabla and foreigners ... there is something about tabla that woos them, and a simple line of tekka produces cheers and applause

Nick, it is not just foreigners. Couple of years back, I was involved in setting up a team of kid percussionists for a cultural function. There was mridangam, western drums, a few other instruments and a tabla. The composition was set forth by a senior mridangamist. The kids put in a lot of effort during rehearsals to learn the composition, the sequence of play etc. The tabla kid was the one who paid least attention to the rehearsals, he would often get some of the sequences wrong and he could not attend a few of the rehearsals. The program itself was received very well by the non classical music aware south indian audience and they perceived the tabla and the western drums as the best. The tabla sound indeed came out clean, clear and non-complicated. During the first round, the entry of the tabla and the western drums were very captivating and hooksy even though it was the simplest of the sequences. That is what remained in people's minds.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 29 Sep 2009, 12:29

Oh well, perhaps, like drum kit and electronic percussion, it appeals to the young?

ugk · Post by **ugk** » 29 Sep 2009, 22:43

vkv43034,
You are correct about the Palghat Raghu playing with Alla Rakha.
I think part of that is here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOVY5YNL9mM

I actually heard rumours from several people that Umayalpuram Sivaraman has expressed annoyance at the fact that the general public is giving excessive applause to tabla players like Zakir Hussain even when they get outplayed by the carnatic drummers.
Even within the tabla community, it is the flashy stuff that gets applause. That is why Zakir Hussain is so famous. He is very good, but he is not in the same league as Pandit Nayan Ghosh or even Anindo Chatterjee. Yet the latter 2 are nowhere near as celebrated or applauded outside the classical community.

I spoke further with my mridangam guru about this issue just a couple of days ago. He said that top mridangam players will often realise that they have to tone down their abilities for fear that the tabla player might get completely stranded. This might result in spoiling the jugalbandhi music overall.
Since my guru is an accomplished tabla player also, he is able to demonstrate to me what he means.
He also laughingly said that a mridangist can give his life playing the most amazing things (Uyira kudduthu vaasiki raddhu in tamil), and all the tabla player player needs to do is play one single exaggerated gumaka ('ge' note with hand slide on bayan) and he will get all the applause.

The funniest thing that happened from my own experience was when i went to see Bala Sir in London play with that tabla player (Misra is his name).
Bala sir did the usual top notch stuff. The tabla player seemed unsure throughout much of his turn, then right at the end he plays a fast rela type not with lots of
Gumaka (Ge syllable) and he gets the applause.
I burst out laughing at the audience. I often go to jugalbandhis expecting this nonsense from the audience now.
It is i think a sign of the world we live in. People want instant gratification. They want white sugar and not brown. They want white bread but not brown.
They would rather throw food in microwave than cook it properly.
It takes some level of real feel for percussion to understand the real brilliance of mridangam.
I remember Palghat Mani Iyer (i think it was him) say that to appreciate real mridangam playing you needed 'Laya Gnyanam'.

ugk · Post by **ugk** » 29 Sep 2009, 22:48

Some people seem to be missing the point of the Subbudu critique on the mridangam vs tabla issue.
Ok so it was a bit weird for him to say tabla is not percussion for having two wings.
But the general theme of what he was saying is the truth.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 29 Sep 2009, 23:14

That is why Zakir Hussain is so famous. He is very good, but he is not in the same league as Pandit Nayan Ghosh or even Anindo Chatterjee. Yet the latter 2 are nowhere near as celebrated or applauded outside the classical community.

To be celebrated outside the classical HM community, one must play outside of it. Zakir Hussain plays all sorts of music in all sorts of places; that is how he has become famous, and anyone else who successfully did the same thing would also become famous! The fact that Zakir Hussain is a showman by nature makes him a natural in those circumstances, it does not say anything against his musicianship as such.

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 30 Sep 2009, 03:15

Let us not miss .the CRICIAL point he can "play all sorts of music in all sorts of places". Its because he is one of the few who can see the trees in the forest as well as see that the forest comprises trees. Which ever way you slice it he is a GENIUS at what he does. Only a restricted view can refuse to realise& recognise Extra-ordinary talent. Same kind of stuff used to be said about Ravi Shankar who has brought UNIVERSAL GLORY our culture, music, & country & M.S.S. because she could sing in more than 10 languages....VKV

thenpaanan · Post by **thenpaanan** » 05 Oct 2009, 00:25

nick H wrote: I don't know what it is about tabla and foreigners (excuse me using the word <blush>) but, there is something about tabla that woos them, and a simple line of tekka produces cheers and applause which, to me, is just embarrassing.

Nick,

Leaving aside musical merit or showmanship or all other controversial/sensitive topics, we can discuss the question of whether the tabla is easier to appreciate than the mridangam to an average _untrained_ person for reasons that have nothing to do with the persons playing or the system they adhere to.

I can think of two different candidate explanations, one visual and one aural. First the visual: the fact that the hands of the tabaliya are more visible than those of a mridangam player may make a huge difference in the overall experience even if both players have similar dexterity of fingers. I feel that even though I know something about mridangam playing, I find it hard to see/decode the player's fingers in motion (at least the right hand, the left hand is typically invisible) perhaps because of the angle of vision whereas in the tabla I can see the fingers of both hands very clearly. To an untrained ear, the complexity of the sound may be too much to grasp (especially of the mridangam where there is no lehra to latch your ears on to and the meter is in your head) and the brain simply settles for the visual spectacle.

Second, to my ear and this is totally without scientific evidence, the resonance (actually reverb) of the thoppi tends to blur the aural sharpness of the finger strokes on the other side. Listen to a part of the thani when the thoppi is used a lot and you will notice that the simultaneous strokes on the other side get drowned or if they are heard you will have difficulty separating the sounds -- at least more so than is the case with the tabla. This may make a difference in the perceived speed of playing. Now, I don't know if this is because of (1) a deficiency in my hearing, (ii) an intrinsic aural difference in the sounds of the two instruments due to the difference in composition, or (iii) something to do with the number of pieces.

If (iii) then I bet that having two discrete pieces helps because it is presumably easier to build two resonating systems, one for each half of the range than a single one that has to respond to the whole range, i.e. building a tuned mridangam-like instrument that has to have a resonant right and left is more challenging.

Just an opinion. Feel free to refute.

-Then Paanan

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 05 Oct 2009, 02:23

Food for thought... and certainly no refutation!

Just for now, on this "perceived speed of playing" thing generally, I am reminded of a conversation with my mridangam guruji after I had been watching some thavil players. He responded to my perception, "It looks as if they play faster than mridangam, but they don't". Even I have a similar thought about tabla now; it seems faster, but is it? Perhaps the answer is that the lighter physical touch of the instrument (my guruji said, if you can play mridangam, you can play tabla, but if you start with tabla you won't even get a sound out of mridangam at first) facilitates fast play so they use more of it.

Gumaka play on the mridangam is a strange thing: it is almost as if it is designed not to be played that way, whereas tabla is designed and built to facilitate it. I've noticed, by the way, that, on some mridangams, pressing on the left skin produces a change in the sound of the right, due to the compression of the air inside. There is certainly an interaction. I haven't heard it in the same way that you describe, but then I doubt that I can mentally resolve the sounds that precisely ("Play it, Guruji? I can't even think it!")

I have to admit that fast kanjira play has a similar effect on me --- I call it the flutter of a butterfly's wings. It is thrilling, and almost electrical. I certainly don't begrudge people their tabla thrill, I just wish they'd wait until the guy has done a little more than warm up

thenpaanan · Post by **thenpaanan** » 05 Oct 2009, 02:52

nick H wrote:
Gumaka play on the mridangam is a strange thing: it is almost as if it is designed not to be played that way, whereas tabla is designed and built to facilitate it. I've noticed, by the way, that, on some mridangams, pressing on the left skin produces a change in the sound of the right, due to the compression of the air inside. There is certainly an interaction.

I have noticed this as well and asked my teacher whether I should keep my hand on the left when I am not playing on the left. He did not give me an emphatic yes or no.

The way I see it, if I even put slight pressure on the left, it holds the skin from moving and, as a result, the vibrating column of air inside the mridangam has an altered set of resonance frequencies (it becomes closer to a closed pipe whereas if the left skin is left free to vibrate it moves slightly to an open pipe). I always preferred the sound of my mridangam's right side (especially dhin and chaapu) with my finger on the left skin but this is obviously not permanent when you have to play strokes on the left as well. To my ear I could hear the difference between holding and not and it annoyed me but there was nothing I could do. I had hoped it was specific to my mridangam which was an old hand-me-down, you are the first to tell me it is not a unique thing.

-Then Paanan

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 05 Oct 2009, 10:37

The great Palghat Raghu told me that "nam" comes out right once in a thousand times! As Nick has pointed out(post#38)------ there is a sympathetic reaction resulting in unwanted interferences between the SOUND FROM two sides of the mridangam" resulting in unwanted artifacts in the sound. Tabla is simpler in this respect. VKV

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 05 Oct 2009, 23:06

I don't know if it is always unwanted? it can produce interesting effects.

In my guruji's school of playing, the basic Thom is produced by playing a simultaneous open-left with Dhin. It gives a very vibrant sound, and I'm sure the internal interaction is part of this.

The great Palghat Raghu told me that "nam" comes out right once in a thousand times!

The mridangam student's first challenge: to get any nadam from the Dhin stroke.

The mridangam student's second challenge: to get chappu, either full or half, to sound at all (have to admit, though, that a few pro players don't seem to have realised that it should ring).

The mridangam student's next realisation. Neither of these strokes are difficult, once you realise how, but Nam remains a challenge for much, much longer!