Pitch Analysis - A fun tool to investigate Shruti in CM

nigamaa · Post by **nigamaa** » 26 Jan 2008, 17:14

arunk wrote:cmlover - I think vk has a point. If harmonics are NOT real, then how come ma1 and pa and ga3 are major intervals, and also related to sa (or each other) by simple ratios? That the timbre many of the instruments (including voice) is harmonic is neither a mathematical model nor some sort of an approximation. They are indeed harmonic in nature although their harmonicity may vary.

But we also pay a bit too much attention to harmonics and resonance to determine what is musical. But I think it is safe to say that hamonics play a significant role in almost all that humans find musical. There are probably exceptions of course.

Arun

pls consider that harmonicsa have been proven long ago as important in nature
http://www.lambdoma.com/
knowledge like this was available before Indus Valley Civilization, although perhaps in secret

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 26 Jan 2008, 22:39

VK
You are stepping into a very complex area of pitch analysis. My knowledge of anatomy does not extend much beyond Grey's Anatomy and plenty of water has flown under the bridge. The logarithmic spiral structure of the cochlea is a natural beauty and is the consequence of evolution. It is incredibly sensitive (claims abound that one can hear the vibration of a few molecules! And upto 120dB which is almost killing! Naturally to pack them the efficient structure is logarithmic. All audio experiments are done using excitations with selected sinusoidal frequencies e.g., the audiograms etc., When you excite sinusoidally the respose also will be sinusoidal, as simple as that-- effect follows the cause. The crucial sentence in the paper is:

The mechanism by which the central nervous system combines information from
different auditory channels to extract pitch is not known.

We know the neural pulses are digital(all or none!) and not analog. Hence sinusoids can only approximate and not completely describe our pitch comprehension.

Arun

Nice exciting area of exploring the 22 shrutis. Our pitch analysis tool is quite sensitive. Could you post the ratios that go with the 22 shrutis particularly the trishruti dhaivatam. I guess it is not equitemporal. Also if possible post the pitch graph (high resolution) so that we can listen to the sample aurally and visually.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 26 Jan 2008, 22:53

Arun, it was pleasant to hear, that is all I can say. I looked at it in Sonic Visualizer, it looked clean enough for some analysis but I am not sure if it is granular or precise enough to make judgements on sruthis whose intervals are not that much bigger than the margin of error of these tools. I guess one has to go by hearing and then focus on those regions that sounds sharper or flatter. ( I can not do that since I do not have that granular pitch perception ).

Having said all that, a question for you: Is Pitchappa attempting a non-gamaka version of some of the 22 sruthis? Asking because that has always been a thorn on the side of analysis of present day music in identifying sruthis in specific ragas ( begada ma, gowlipanthu ma, saveri ri etc. ) since they are always played with some oscillation whose range is wider than the sruthi interval itself. I usually get confused when knowledgeable people, in discussions here in this forum and elsewehre, say something like 'The Dha is a bit sharper in this raga than suddha dhaivatha". In the absence of kArvai and nyasa swaras, I do not understand the basis on which to decide such things. But if Pitchappa is attempting such non-ornamented straight singing of sruthi intervals, then it is going to be quite interesting.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 26 Jan 2008, 23:17

CML,

I also read that sentence you quoted and I understand. That is why I said there is entropy ( i.e loss of information ) on the otherside of the ear. In that sense the brain does not get the full signal.

The interesting thing, there does not seem to be much uncertainty about the anatomy of the ear in this respect. If you believe this article, it states such things in a matter of fact manner. That is, the ear indeed does a harmonic analysis of sorts on the complex signal and sends the sinusoidal components to the brain in whatever coded form ( which is not understood yet ). And that harmonic breakdown by the ear and the subsequent coding of the resultant signals itself is entropy inducing activity. So there are some approximations there as well but that is how nature is.

Arun, you doubted whether the ear actually does harmonic analysis ( of sorts ) or not. Does this article convince you one way or the other?

I understand that at the point of the sound generation by natural bodies, they are not put together by constituent sine waves. Definitely, no question there. But the curious thing is, Fourier figured this out decomposition into sine waves before the Ear anatomy was known and it turns out that the ear functions on similar principles ( however approximately given the physical limitations ).

CML, on your other comment about neurons being digital and not analog, the latest thinking on that is a modification of that digital principle. It is a combination of both analog and digital signals. Nature seems to use which ever is the most beneficial to use. Before this 'mix of analog and digital' finding, it was generally understood that the sending neuron fires only when it reaches a threshold ("action potential") and that is what gets transmitted to the receiving neuron. That is digital. But now the understanding is, the 'receiving nueron's waveform is a combination of this digital pattern as well as the analog waveform occuring in the sending neuron. So the operation of neurons is a mixture of telephone and telegraph and not just like a telegraph'. But then this area of research is still young, so next year someone may come up with a refinement to this.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 27 Jan 2008, 01:14

First, let me say that It would be a HUGE mistake to start getting into 22 shruthis specifically assigning ratios etc., as IMO, that has been debunked quite well. I am tired of revisting that as I know it will lead once again in the same direction - how actual pitch analysis wont match it. In short, ratios for 22 shruthis are quite arbitrary, were done without supporting experimental data etc. etc. To put it bluntly, they are useless.

However, I dont want to dismiss the idea that certain versions of a swara in certain contexts in certain raga may be perceived to have a different pitch compared to the same swarr but in a different raga. So I view the classifications of trisruthi etc. to be just that - a sort of labelling for select versions of swaras (arvindh's research indicates that there are more versions of these swaras than indicated by 22 sruthis and I can see how that can be).

Thus the question is do you hear a difference in the two dhas (p-d-n-d and p-d-n-s)? If so how will you characterize it? Do you sense some difference in terms of "overall pitch" you hear? Or is it something else?

vk - i did not read the article yet. Btw, My point was not that harmonics arent somehow important to ear. Instead I was questioning your assumption for that ANY signal (say a wave sound, a shriek, a square wave) is broken down by ear+brain into constituent sine waves like FFT, whose pattern is then analysized/consumed by us. To be honest, at this point this particular topic (i.e. what is music, how is it found in sound etc.) does not interest me that much

. More interested in things more readily relatable to cm.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 27 Jan 2008, 02:04

Instead I was questioning your assumption for that ANY signal (say a wave sound, a shriek, a square wave) is broken down by ear+brain into constituent sine waves like FFT, whose pattern is then analysized/consumed by us.

Understood. I am also not that interested in what happens to a shreik but just music in this context. The shreik was just a side bar

On the sruthi, p-d-n-d vs p-d-n-s, my ear/brain combo is not fine tuned enough to recognize any difference. But I will listen at a different time and see if my own mental state makes a differences in such perceiving small differences.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 27 Jan 2008, 02:13

I am NOT saying there IS a difference - particularly in this sample (singing is far from professional and hence it is very much possible it is not representative of the issue at hand

).

Most of the time, I think that in this case (pdnd of ritigowla) there is a "softness" to da, compared to p-d-n-S. That softness sometimes gives a feeling of a slightly flatter pitch to me - but I think it could my imagination as well as there are other times when I mull over and conclude "they are the same w.r.t pitch"

Arun

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 27 Jan 2008, 02:48

I think that in this case (pdnd of ritigowla) there is a "softness" to da, compared to p-d-n-S.

Arun,
I think the difference in sound of "d" or rather how it is sung in above cases is due to the swara that follows the "d". In one case it is "dnd" and the other "dnS". I will have to analyze the graph to see and what I hear..

As for the phrase "pdnd " in rItigowla I always thought in this phrase it should be D1. If there was a M after the D as in in PDM then we use D2. I may be wrong.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 27 Jan 2008, 02:51

suji - i also thought that d1 figured but I am not sure when I listen to some kalpanaswaras of SSI and MDR. It does sound lower than D2 but again maybe not

. Besides I think D1 in ritigowlai is supposed to quite rare (even completely avoidable), but pdnd is not exactly that rare. So I am a bit confused. Also in the varnam p-d-p I think comes which has the same "feeling" - but I was told in the varnam M-D (in swaras) is where D1 occurs. But I listened to one version yesterday, and I couldnt tell if it was D1. If any it seemed like that "enigmatic" version i.e. lower than D2 but maybe not D1.

I also agree that neighbouring swaras play a role in how the swara is sung/played and actually I think how it is perceived.

Arun

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 27 Jan 2008, 04:40

Maybe this helps. Here is a sample containing selected kalpanaswara portions of a professional rendition of ritigowla and harikambhoji: http://www.sendspace.com/file/94lywo. The shruthis of the two renditions from which these were taken are pretty close (i didnt do any adjustments)

In ritigowla here, I do believe there is a phrase with D1 itself seems employed. I will pose it as a quiz - maybe an easy one.

To my ears, the da in pdnd doesnt seem that different from the da in harikambhoji. All aural perception of course, I am not sure pitch analysis may work that well here - i.e. signal not clearest, there are other instruments etc. .

In any case, enjoy the music

!

Arun

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 27 Jan 2008, 08:35

The best I can do is to look visually at Pichappa's pdnd,m and pdnS' (My hearing is poor)

He is singign at 1 kaTTai as you can see that his high Sa is a C3.
I cannot see much difference in the dhaivatam in the gamaka clutter. Please try to interpret if possible or say that pitch analysis is useless!

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 27 Jan 2008, 21:31

I couldnt see much either

. I think it all points to one thing - that it is all in my mind and imagination

. Let us move on.

BTW, did you listen to the SSI sample?

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 27 Jan 2008, 22:41

Not yet! Give me some time to think since I am a bit slow these days. Ritigowlai is indeed a complex raga for my ken!

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 27 Jan 2008, 23:27

as I 'listen' to SSI I can hear variations in his use of the dhaivatam which is good but at the same time I can hear variations in his use of the madhyamam too! (which is bad

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 27 Jan 2008, 23:51

err. There you go again insinuating based on (a) not enough evidence (b) not understanding the dynamics of cm enough.

For (b) I am not implying I know better, but I only have to point at your questions on the first 2 samples posted (i.e. MSS and the other).

This all gives too strong a whiff of "guilty until somebody explains to me where/how I am wrong". My advice is err on your side more than the other as history may point towards that trend

Arun

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 28 Jan 2008, 00:24

I was simply stating the facts as my poor hearing led me to

Did not even look at any 'objective' plots. My problem is I do not care for 'names'. If a baby sings well it is great for me and I do not eulogize somebody just because others venerate or even deify them. That goes even for the Trinity as you know me well. Of course I look for objective evidence and always willing to learn and correct myself. Perhaps it is the trace of the old 'British Justice system' still left over in me

Guilty unless proven otherwise!

By the by we do not know as VK correctly points out the 'variance' in all these samples (which depends on various factors including polyphony, personal vagaries etc., ) whence how can we claim there are such hairsplitting differences in notes just because some old manuals make such claims! Let us be 'objective'. I believe when I see it (since I see better (after my surgery

than I hear

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 28 Jan 2008, 01:49

CML, I do not hear any different Ma treatments by SSI there.

Thus the question is do you hear a difference in the two dhas (p-d-n-d and p-d-n-s)? If so how will you characterize it? Do you sense some difference in terms of "overall pitch" you hear? Or is it something else?

In the SSI clip is there an instance of p-d-n-s?

He does sing the first 'da' of p-d-n-d little bit softly, in how he vocalizes the swara. In a 'smudgy' sort of way as opposed to the 'gaNeer' manner in which the other 'da's come out. ( Yes, smudgy is a technical term

)

On your quiz, where D1 is, I could not detect it. Quite a shame. I will give it another try later on.

SSI does not do that 'softening by smudginess' of 'da' in Harikambhoji.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 28 Jan 2008, 01:58

By the by we do not know as VK correctly points out the 'variance' in all these samples (which depends on various factors including polyphony, personal vagaries etc., ) whence how can we claim there are such hairsplitting differences in notes just because some old manuals make such claims! Let us be 'objective'.

CML, first a general observation on being 'objective' rather than 'subjective'. With the state of the techniques and tools as they are, you can not put that much faith in what the tool shows as 'Objective'. So, I am not sure what you want to base it on. On one hand we do recognize the limitations of the tools and on the other hand we want the objective proof to be by the tools. We need to strike a balance.

Before making conclusive statements, no matter what the tool shows, it has to first past the subjective listening test. This is what I would call 'passing the red face test'

We have already seen so many instances where it is our fault in not calibrating the tool properly, not understanding the limitations of the tool properly and not really have enough experience ( all of us ) on how to use that tool with CM. I still consider that we are in that learning stage.

I see there are then three possibilities. First, due to an individual's listening limitations ( example, I ), one resorts to the tool to look at broad categories where the limitations of the techniques of analysis do not interfere. I think this is a good use of the tool. Second, the difference are too small ( a few Hz or cents.) We should walk away from using the tool as the final arbiter for those cases since its margin of error of the tool is bigger than the 'real' differences we are trying to discern.
Then there is the third case which is in the middle. DIfferences in frequencies are big enough to be useful for analysis and where subjective analysis of those who have sharp hearing gyanam disagree in what they hear. That will be an interesting and good battleground and a good learning experience for all of us, novices and experts. ( This is the Arvindh level analysis and the ensuing discussion )

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 28 Jan 2008, 02:11

arunk wrote: However, I dont want to dismiss the idea that certain versions of a swara in certain contexts in certain raga may be perceived to have a different pitch compared to the same swarr but in a different raga. So I view the classifications of trisruthi etc. to be just that - a sort of labelling for select versions of swaras (arvindh's research indicates that there are more versions of these swaras than indicated by 22 sruthis and I can see how that can be).

If I remember right ( I have not been to his site recently ), what Arvindh concluded is, in today's music the 22 sruthis as flat, kArvail or nyasa notes do not exist. (Definitely 22 sruthi practise existed before since all the old books define the whole scale using these 22 sruthis. Whether it was just a tuning technique or used in actual music is anyone's guess). Second, what we hear as 'Begada Ma' and 'Saveri Ri' are really not sruthis in the sense of 22 sruthis but they are just specific oscillations around a swarasthana which gives a unique color to the note which we perceive as different. I have been calling it within myself as 'horizonal timbre' to distinguish it from the vertical timbre ( the harmonics induced one ). So he had started coming up with those 'atoms' and associating them with specific uses in specific ragas.

That I understand.

But what I do not understand is when people say that in a particular raga the 'da' is a bit sharp or a bit flat. Similar to what you were getting at for RitiGowla. Can such a case be made for non gamaka execution of those swaras in those ragas in those specific contexts? Then we have something new.

( BTW, I do not want to start a discussion on the specifics of Arvindh's research, though you can definitely correct me if my interpretation above is wrong. I will go back and read it again myself. Not that the discussion will not be illuminating, but it will be rehashing the same stuff along with the strong emotions it creates in some people.
Is Arvindh continuing in this line of research, does any one know? )

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 28 Jan 2008, 05:19

vk - your interpretation is right. The only extra thing is that for (some) pitch contours, there is a psycho-acoustic thing as perceiving an "average pitch" (the word average here used a bit loosely) and that is where things comes. I believe arvindh mentions it somewhere - or atleast it came up in some discussions. I think there is some research on it (i.e. psycho-acoustic research on it).

Take the classic gowla, saveri ri and contrast that with a dhIrga flat ri. It is not uncommon for people to opine 2 things about it (a) The gowla, saveri ri is not flat but oscillatory starting from sa (b) the gowla, saveri "sounds" a tad lower compared to other. This does not mean that gowla, saveri ri is sung flat at a lower pitch and thus one can assign a ratio to it - i.e. assigning a constant interval/ratio for it. But the overall contour of it can give a perception of not being as sharp as other flat R1s. This idea (i.e. (b)) could be solely on psychological side.

Arun

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 28 Jan 2008, 05:24

cmlover wrote:I I do not eulogize somebody just because others venerate or even deify them.

Yes - but IMO you are quick (shall I say historically way too eager

) to suspect faults based on flimsy evidence AND in many case flimsy background information. That combination makes the above justification ring patently hollow. IMHO - That is not objective methodology at all!

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 28 Jan 2008, 05:28

To put in bluntly - unless one (aurally) can identify the shruthi reliably, the notes/swaras reliably, AND you know the variations swaras take in various contexts in various ragas one , should stay away from such conclusions as one lacks basic qualifications needed. Let me take the liberty and declare that most of us here (mua included) are not there yet - we are quite far from it.

Yes greats are fallible, but we are lo.. ng ways from recognizing many of them - atleast the kinds of charges that were brought up.

Arun

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 28 Jan 2008, 06:41

agreed and conceded

Back to business. In my older days we never rush to the lab for getting a diagnosis, but count on the basic skills of the physician as well as experience. The general rule was, the older the doctor the better is his diagnostic judgement. The common folks jocularly say 'aayiram peyarai konRavan arai vaidhyan

Then the whole approach changed as we started relying on labs as the ultimate jury. I too got weaned into it due to the glamour and success of the western approach. Perhaps that is showing in my attitude towards CM as well

I will learn to turn the clock back! But will never take things for granted

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 28 Jan 2008, 07:37

OK, back to business, now that those issues are "settled"...

I am having blast of a time ( and more fun than I should be allowed to have

) with tracking KVN's begada alapana as part of an RTP. I am posting the alanapa portion here but the pitch graph would be too big to depict here. You all have to enjoy that youself on your computers with the Sonic Visualizer.
(This is from a concert labeled KVN - MSG - UKS'Mysore82)

http://www.sendspace.com/file/axfft3

This is in 1 kattai, KVN natural and no adjustments on my part.

The main point I want to convey here are:

1) It is quite interesting to see the pattern of the pitch contour for the flourishes and gamakas that bring out begada. As I am listening, I go 'Ah there is Begada identity, let me see what produced that'. Of course, my concept of what are all the Begada personalities are limited, but even within those limitations it is easy to spot many many such occurrences.

2) The two signature Begada swaras, Ni and Ma, as you will see when you analyze, are not even in those swarasthanas. 'Average pitch produced through oscillations' stuff that we talked about just now, glares at us in our face as if saying... it is not theoretical buddy, here it is, you are just listening to it

This is more true of Begada Ni than Ma in this sample. Most of the time the Ni shows up as 'sa-da sa-da sa-da'

3) I remember some one making a mildly satirical comment that SSI once said there are umpteen number of variations in Begada Ma ( because SSI phrased it as there are Y number of begada Ma and not one ). Looking at this KVN's piece, I now understand exactly what SSI meant. It is incredible. Sometimes Ma is executed as 'ma-ga ma-ga', other times 'pa-ga pa-ga pa-ga', or 'ma-ri ma-ri'. Other times the frequency differentials are different even if they can be nominally considered swinging from Pa to Ga or Ma to ga. Other times, the total duration to execute the gamaka changes which in itself gives a different color. A little extra time spent on the trough of the oscillation makes it sound different but at the same time, it is unmistakably Begada. The number of oscillations can vary as well. Given all these possibilities and parameters, one can play with and the resulting tonal colors, I would even believe there are dozens of different such combinations one can produce.

4) There are places where MSG and kVN use the same Begada specific gamakam side by side and the oscillations are very close and other places the contour is different, as a result they sound same with a different tonal color.

5) There are some very interesting curves that show up which may not be explicitly mentioned in raga lakshana documentation on Begada. Like in one place, KVN goes from High Sa to Middle Ga and then goes up to the third quadrant to execute some oscillations. I am not sure what nominal swaras one can use for that or how to even describe those, but that sounds perfectly normal and at home with Begada.

6) Finally, it felt exciting and at the same time a bit odd to see all those 'secrets'

being bared, unpeeled and ready to see. Almost like something I should not be seeing but I am seeing

At the same time it only increased my appreciation for the profound nature of Begada.

Anyway, I will let you enjoy it and make further observations. I have a feeling you will be as excited as I am right now about what the pitch tracker reveals when you listen to the music inside Sonic Visualizer.

P.S. It turns out the alapana portion I posted above is just a teaser. It gets much better. MSG freaks out in subsequent responses... in one little sequence, he just traverses the arohana but it is all curves and all begada curves.. Oh my... It is breathtaking but MSG plays it as if it is no big deal and moves on to the next sequence....I will leave it at that for now.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 28 Jan 2008, 08:51

6.5 miinutes of sheer ecstasy! Will relish it first before 'taking it apart'

(Don't worry Arun! If I say anything bad Uday will kill me before you do

VK
any timelines to focus on? MSG is just treacle! Would love to see Suji attempt some of those gamakas....

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 28 Jan 2008, 08:59

vasanthakokilam wrote:In the SSI clip is there an instance of p-d-n-s?

No. It is there in hkambhoji rendition but I forgot to include it (not intentional). Of course pdns is illegal in rgowla (i think)

On your quiz, where D1 is, I could not detect it. Quite a shame. I will give it another try later on.

Try the second occurrence i.e gmpd*mpgr.

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 28 Jan 2008, 13:14

VK
any timelines to focus on? MSG is just treacle! Would love to see Suji attempt some of those gamakas....

These 6 minutes introduce you to the basic Raga Lakshana of Begada. Not in terms of swarasthanas but in terms of 6 or 7 different melodic contours. Just set it up in Sonic Visualizer and enjoy it ( don't analyze it, the first 10 times ). There are just numerous places to get excited about, so I can not give you any timeline to focus on, that would be unfair to the ones I do not specify.

In this thread, http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?id=911, there is quite a bit of discussion about which Ni is used in Begada and in general what is the nominal arohanam/avarohanam of Begada. I personally think some of those questions themselves become moot, if you follow the pitch tracker

, especially for the Ni. It is rare to see Ni in the Ni swarasthana, let alone debate whether it is Kaisiki or Kakali Ni. ( I am sure somewhere the average pitch business comes in. ). All we can say is there are multitude of Ni contours: Well defined, reproducible and used in specific contexts.

The next phase of the alapana is more involved and there are several interesting places to focus on...

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 28 Jan 2008, 13:30

Here is the full alapana and the thanam. ( If this is a commercial release, please alert, I will remove the link as per our standard procedure )

http://www.sendspace.com/file/i0enf2

If the first part of the alapana is about alphabets, the subsequent parts are about words and sentences and meaning.

Here are some interesting points to notice in the timeline. These are just a few that caught my attention. I am sure there are many more here..

10:43.227 to 10.44.597 - KVN's little florish of begada involving "s S S d S d p (M) g" ( not swarasthanas but how the contour goes )

11:21.795 to 11:27.519 - MSG curvy all over Begada

12:27.7 to 12:30.33 - A good begada flourish, curvy it is, goes without saying

13:01 to 13:05 - Arohana - Avarohana traversal and what a traversal it is in those 4 seconds by MSG. One may even find the word Begada in those curvy lines if you look hard enough

13:27 to 14:05.8 - MSG resets and does the Arohana traversal again but quite a different path this time than 20 seconds back, quite relaxed in expression, and uses it to wrap up this phase of the alapana. It is quite a mountaineous terrain through out, both a visual and aural treat.

15:55.733 to 15:56.128 - This is just half a second in thanam where MSG sneaks in a flash of core Begada personality ( ga-pa-ga contour ) playfully.

The settings I used in Sonic Visualizer for this are:

Add the spectrogram layer and pick Frequencies, Logs, black on white, toggle off the Spectrogram itself
Add the pitch detector layer, pick Red, points
Go to the waveform layer and toggle it off
switch back to the spectrogram layer
adjust the Y axis for 100 to 1200 Hz frequency.
adjust the X axis so that you see 8 seconds in the visible area. This I found to be a nice way to look at the contours with enough time resolution

Set it to play , sit back and enjoy the visual and aural show. My practise is, I frequenty hit pause, move back and look at what just transpired, how the curve looks for the flash of Begada I just heard etc.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 28 Jan 2008, 22:44

I listened to the alapana - it was excellent - especially MSG

Ni in begada is indeed quite hard to pin as it is never rendered flat - sort of tandem with ma I would guess - e.g. you have n n d p (vs.) m m g and n~ d p (vs) m~ g r. As you say, we laymen hear a lot about begada ma, that we dont realize the ni here is as much an enigma as ma. I didnt know about it until much later.

The only time the ni, sounds closer to N3 (or say enough N3 tinge) to my ears is in some S n d.. type phrases. Even here ni I believe is taken from S downwards towards n2, and the tinge of n3 would depend may be on how long the curve stays in the n3 territory. At least that is how I interpret what my ears hear

. Same also can happen for R n~ d p. Not sure if Snd type phrases occur here - but the very tailend of MSG may have ni's that have tinge of N3. For example, at 06:14, I think it is a Rndp, where the ni slide seems to have N3 touch (very brief tinge of course).

Arun

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 29 Jan 2008, 00:43

I think the N3 in bEgaDa occurs during phrases like S' N R', S'
here too the N is not flat but goes slightly downward swing..
Now we have terms like swing ,curve , what else?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 29 Jan 2008, 00:47

Arun, one thing that happens to me when I listen to an alapana with the pitch graph is, the swarasthanas take a backseat. When I see a oscillatory curve, I try to come to grasp with the oscillation itself in terms of where the top part of the oscillation is, where the bottom part of the oscillation is, the number of oscillations and the time taken to execute those oscillations etc. and associate that withe the raga swaroopa I heard. So, in this sense, the swarasthanas ( as in the Piano Keys displayed by the tool in the spectrogram window ) are there mainly to define the oscillations. Now this is an alapana, I do not really know what swaras they map to except for prior familiarity with the sound produced with 'Ah... this is what they verbalize as 'Neeee' '.
It is quite a different way to look at CM and comprehend it, especially for ragas like Begada.

Yes, both Ni and Ma are like that in Begada. It is not the exception of course in Begada, it is plastered all over the begada exploration as can be seen from the graph.

BTW, I am currently confused about Ni3. Begada being a janya of Shankarabaranam, it is nominal Ni is Ni3 isn't it? Or I am confused with the numbered swara notations?

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 29 Jan 2008, 00:49

Suji Ram wrote:I think the N3 in bEgaDa occurs during phrases like S' N R', S'
here too the N is not flat but goes slightly downward swing..

oh ya. How I can I forgot this one - occurs in navaragamalika varnam itself and more than once

Arun

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 29 Jan 2008, 01:05

vk

While I do see your point, IMHO swarams do make sense even to understand alapana - not every curve and turn, but quite a lot.

I think in many of us, there is this tendency to always equate swarams to their sthanams. I believe this is misguided, and actually is apparent while learning as soon as you get to varnam level. You see swaras in varnam level, but you see how they themselves have associated context specific movements which combine to provide the raga flavor (aside: that is why I feel we loose out a lot in always hearing the second part of the varnam in fast(er) speed - IMO the beauty of the varnam, and also the raga lies mainly in first speed throughout. The singing in two speeds IMHO is a demonstration of profiency whch comes at the expense of certain aesthetics).

So if swaras were always associated with swarasthanams, kalpanaswarams, swara sections in a varnam etc, would never give the raga contour and would be meaningless.

Arun

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 29 Jan 2008, 01:15

vasanthakokilam wrote:BTW, I am currently confused about Ni3. Begada being a janya of Shankarabaranam, it is nominal Ni is Ni3 isn't it? Or I am confused with the numbered swara notations?

I think people say even the nominal ni is "neither here nor there". To my ears there is more N2 flavor than N3 flavor more often (except in some cases), but maybe I should say it is "ambigious more often, but farther from N3 than N2"

.

And yes the assignment to 29 is there in spite. Some believe this indicates possible morphing over time. So maybe earlier there was more direct N3 usage.

Anyway here is some discussion: http://www.carnatic-music.com/ragas/begada.txt

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 29 Jan 2008, 04:42

Arun, regarding your post #233, I agree. Your first sentence and the rest of the paragraph are separate things, right? Meaning, there are two things you are saying.

1) Whether you just stay with contours and not even name them as swaras. I see it the same way you do that it makes sense to talk in terms of swara names since it is a nice compact short hand to refer to those contours. And obviusly when there are not much contour to speak of, swaras have their usual meaning as well.

2) The problem with equating swaras with swarasthanas. Quite right. Not just for Begada like ragas but for all ragas ( except for a few ragas that are mostly defined by the swarasthanas ).

Just trying to sync up...

On the Begada Ni3:

I did not soak in all the past Begada discussions. I thought since it is a janya of 29, most of the time people will perceive the Ni to be 'sort of' N3' and the exception cases are the 'sort of Ni2'. But your discussions seemed to point to the opposite of that in terms of frequency of occurrence.

But now that we have the pitch contours, can you look into those contours and which type of Ni contour gives off which Ni perceptions?

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 29 Jan 2008, 04:57

any timelines to focus on? MSG is just treacle! Would love to see Suji attempt some of those gamakas....

I'll try the bEgada later.

Now I am revisiting rItigowla. Here is an alapana on violin I made up.
I have included D1 in it or sort of sounds like one. I would like to know where it appears..

This is my first ever alapana (or something like that).

http://www.sendspace.com/file/ggy5qh

file updated

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 29 Jan 2008, 06:33

vasanthakokilam wrote:Arun, regarding your post #233, I agree. Your first sentence and the rest of the paragraph are separate things, right? Meaning, there are two things you are saying.

Actually related. I felt that perhaps because of over-association of swarams to swasthanams, there is perhaps a perception that a alapana cannot be "broken apart" into swaras.

I did not soak in all the past Begada discussions. I thought since it is a janya of 29, most of the time people will perceive the Ni to be 'sort of' N3' and the exception cases are the 'sort of Ni2'. But your discussions seemed to point to the opposite of that in terms of frequency of occurrence.

Yep. I feel that way when I contemplate on the few "common" ones. But here is what Prof SRJ says in the "Ragas at a glance book"

Normally assigned to the 29th mela, Dhirasankarabharanam varga. But the domineering Kak-Ni is a rarity. In fact, the Ni seems to be more Kaisiki or swinging between Kai-Ni and Kak-Ni. It would be safe to put it under Harikambhoji varga, the 28th mela

But now that we have the pitch contours, can you look into those contours and which type of Ni contour gives off which Ni perceptions?

I will try. Cant guarantee that I can do it reliably, and also of course it would be just my subjective view

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 29 Jan 2008, 06:33

Thanks Suji. I will take a look at it a bit later

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 29 Jan 2008, 06:55

Thanks Arun for that clarification. I understand what you were saying. We are in sync.

It is quite interesting to read what SRJ says about Ni swinging between the two Nis. In my very limited one day experience with looking at Begada contours obsessively ( which I still can not get enough of ), this may be an example of average pitch itself swinging with respect to aural perceptions. I am not sure if people had considered that possibility before. This is the second order gamaka effect.

The contours are much wider ( taller ) than the distance between N2 and N3 in many cases. I also see that in some cases the height of the oscillations differs between one cycle and the next within the same 'asaivu'/gamaka. I am just wildly speculating if this 'swing between Kaisiki and Kakali ni' is actually ' a swing of the perceptions of the average pitch' because the height of the oscillations change. But beware, I am looking at the alapana portions of it and I am guessing that certains contours are Ni, I may be off base here. So, before I make any further statements, it will be good if you can look at it as well and if my above claim is corroborated in the pitch contours.

I will try to listen to the kalpanaswaram section to see if similar contours exist. Then I can match up contours and swaras.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 29 Jan 2008, 08:06

vk - Yes - I do not think Prof SRJ is implying a ni whose contour is restricted and swinging between N2 and N3 sthanams. I would think he refers to the overall perceptive effect being somewhere between N2 and N3.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 29 Jan 2008, 09:23

The kalpanaswaram section was a bit of an anti-climax. There was only two minuts of Begada and the KVN portion does not show well in the graph. MSG portion does much better. But the contours are not as prominent there since they are played faster than in alapana. So, Arun I now fully depend on you to mark up swaras for the contours in the alapana.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 29 Jan 2008, 09:52

Here are some. I have tried to decode swaras where possible but I would not vouch for accuracy. Some labelling - you could argue why it is ni

As I mentioned, all my perceptions which is probably not 100% reliable.

Unless indicated otherwise, the nis have more N2 flavor than N3 to me.

vocal alapana portion

0.05-0.09: gmpd.p.. n~ ~ d..p..

17-20 (violin): a fleeting use, difficult to categorize. Sort of like s(s)nd. This one may have a tinge of N3 (but very difficult to tell in this case)

1:18-1.21: n~~ dpmgmpdn~~dpmpd~p (or something like that, anyway n~ is prominent)

1.26-1.29: Here I believe the contours are sort of like d~(n)~ d/(n)p where first is kampitam between d2 and n2, and second is a slide up to n2 and back to pa. I am not sure how this would be labelled i.e. whether a ni labelling would be used.

2:41-2:44 (vocal and violin): starts with sa, flourish and the ni~.

violin alapana. I found more here that were more easily recognizable to my ears

4:57-4:59 - (d)/n d (i.e. ni . da ). This is all in d2/n2 range - classic N2

5:04-5:05 same ni-da but different contours (d)/n (n)d

5:06-5:07 - similar to prev

5:22-5:24 similar ni starts here.

5:31-5:33 - n~ n~ p/dp (or something like that). Here ni is started from above, probably sa. This one has "a higher than N2 but maybe not N3 flavor. IMO, this (ad the next two) does start high, but quickly comes down to N2 (and maybe below) territory. I think this is not standard N2 (with gamaka), but also not exactly standard N3 (with gamaka) - paricularly for ragas with D2.

5:35-5:36 - sort of similar to last.

5:41-5:43 - Again similar - more pronounced (S n~ n~ d p )

5:45-5:46 - R n~ d p, here n is similar to above - again note that it comes down quickly.

5:47-5:51 - beautiful. I think this is like /R N /R , (s)N~ D P. This second ni sounds "lower" compared to the previous (to my ears).

5:55 - 5:58: S n p (d) p (or something like that). This n is more N3 than N2. It is almost like S. In fact, I could might as well say S S p (d) p. The ni probably starts lower than sa (N3 position) and quickly hits Sa. It could also be my imagination.

I am tired. I think there is more towards the end That is it for now

. Hopefully it doesnt confuse more.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 30 Jan 2008, 03:41

suji - i listened to your alapana. I cannot detect the exact spot of D1 unambiguously but I suspect it is in the 32s-33s range.

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 30 Jan 2008, 03:58

Thanks Arun for the breakdown. ( I assume you did that by listening alone and not by looking at the pitch contour. )

I listened to some parts of it using your markings as guidlines. That helps.

May be the next step is for you to copy and paste those contours along with Swarasthana markings for reference ( upper bound and lower bound etc. ), so we have those templates to compare and learn. I know that is lot of work but we can get started one at a time. If I have time over the week end I will try to map your commentary to the graphical contours.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 30 Jan 2008, 04:20

vk - yes by listening only. Anyway when I looked at the contours under Sonic Visualizer, it wasnt the best for this sample for some reason.

Also, I think breaking down swaras from contours doesnt work for me.

Also, we should note that even a particular variety of a swara, can be achieved with different (but similar) contours. So e.g. One cannot say that for saveri ri, the upper limit must be 90 or 100 cents above sa. I remember a (email I think) discussion with Arvindh where he said his analysis showed artists reaching higher (much higher) and still achieving the intended effect of that ri. Depending on the velocity of traversing the pitch movement, one can achieve the requisite gamaka by reaching up to different points (Of course that does not mean it is unbounded). My point here is
1. I am not sure one can or need to pin begada ni to "n" specific curves - each curve for each flavor of ni.
2. Different executions of even one variety of ni, i.e. ones which sound identical to us may show up as different curves. This could point to not only the above (i.e. velocity etc.), but also that after some point the variations are too minute and beyond the sensitivity for most ears.

So while we can certainly try to look at the contours for these nis, we should watch out for these points as well.

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 30 Jan 2008, 04:23

Understood fully and agreed. Let us go in that direction with those caveats in mind.

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 30 Jan 2008, 07:32

Very interesting experiments in this thread. Keep going, gentlemen. Just a comment on begada - the raga is in the 29th melakarta because its lakshanas are very close derivatives of Sankarabharanam. If one considers the nishada then one can call it a "borderline 29er" since in most prayogas the nishada is neither kakali nor kaishiki but hovers somewhat closer to the latter. One can almost - but not quite - consider the "N" as just a "S-D" oscillation.

SR

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 30 Jan 2008, 07:37

arunk wrote:suji - i listened to your alapana. I cannot detect the exact spot of D1 unambiguously but I suspect it is in the 32s-33s range.

Arun

You are right!! I briefly touched upon D1. When I looked at it in Sonic visualizer it is showing at that time spot. I wasn't sure first if it would even show up, but it did.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 30 Jan 2008, 08:37

One can almost - but not quite - consider the "N" as just a "S-D" oscillation.

SR, quite right.. The pitch contours show that very clearly. There are a few diffent contours and all those are S-D oscilaltions ( multiple times ) and they distinctly and immediately bring out the unique Begada Ni.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 30 Jan 2008, 10:00

Indeed a D-S combo. Note ga3-pa for ma <=> d2-sa of ni (i.e. same pitch-width for kampita).

BTW, here is a "solfification" of the first phrase. Pitchappa had lot of trouble trying to mimic the exact contour of ni. This one was closest of the many attempts - and even this one isnt that exact: http://www.sendspace.com/file/uo1a1b