mELa ragas

Lakshman · Post by **Lakshman** » 01 Oct 2006, 00:48

ramakriya wrote:

With musicalnirvana site being dead, I wonder if there would be any more ratnAngi/phEnadyuti postings..

musicalnirvana is still there since I accessed it only a few minutes ago.

Vocalist · Post by **Vocalist** » 01 Oct 2006, 10:45

It was dead for (what seems like) quite a while...

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 01 Oct 2006, 11:59

kartik wrote:Here is an expert Ganamurthi-
http://www.savefile.com/files/120287
Great magic starting 5:45

Really magical! Thanks a lot Kartik for sharing this.

-Ramakriya

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 01 Oct 2006, 19:50

The best gAnamUrthy I have ever heard...

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 03 Oct 2006, 05:18

In the kriti gAnamUrtE, what does the phrase "narakAntakAja nata tyAgarAja" imply? It does not sound right to me. Is something amiss?

-Ramakriya

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 03 Oct 2006, 12:19

narakAntaka + aja + nata tyAgarAja
Its just fine.

srinidhi · Post by **srinidhi** » 03 Oct 2006, 12:57

kartik wrote:
Here is an expert Ganamurthi-
http://www.savefile.com/files/120287
Great magic starting 5:45

Who's the singer?

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 03 Oct 2006, 13:00

srinidhi wrote:kartik wrote:
Here is an expert Ganamurthi-
http://www.savefile.com/files/120287
Great magic starting 5:45

Who's the singer?

TNS

ignoramus · Post by **ignoramus** » 03 Oct 2006, 13:00

oh oh :rolleyes

srinidhi · Post by **srinidhi** » 03 Oct 2006, 13:04

Thanks ramakriya. My compute speakers are not working, hence I could not listen to the piece. In fact I was not even sure if it was vocal or instrumental.

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 03 Oct 2006, 21:18

Bay area forumers, Do not miss this
=======================

Just in time after the Ratnangi discussion we had, here is a great chance to listen to a Raga-Tana-Pallavi in Ratnangi.

Sri Guru Raghavendra Swamy Pallavi Concert Series - 2 (Ratnangi)

A Grand Violin Concert By

Vidwan Sri H.K. Narasimha Murthy

Accompaniments

Double Mridangam : Sri Ramesh Srinivasan and Sri Karthik Gopalratnam

Venue : Sanatana Dharma Kendra, 897 Kifer Road , Sunnyvale , CA 94086

Date : October 21, 2006, Saturday

Time : 2 - 5 P.M

More details about the conert and artists at the following link:

http://www.rogepost.com/dn/7wsc

-Ramakriya

p.s: I have added to the calendar of events page. But thought this is relavent here ..

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 04 Oct 2006, 21:59

One of the forumers suggested that this thread can get more interesting if we randomly go in the mELakarta list rather than sequentially. That could add some variety because, we won't always be discussing mELas differing by one note all the time.

Any other thoughts?

-Ramakriya

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 04 Oct 2006, 22:16

ramakriya,
i had also thought of this - not random but perhaps another order which would make succeeding melas (in that order) differ by more than 1 swara.

But then I thought it would indeed be interesting to see if melas which differ just by one swarastha can paint a different picture. For example while kanakAngi and ratnAngi show some similarlities, there are differences and discussing them one after the can shed light on impact of N2 on a mELa vs N1 and also difference in impact between N2 and N1 etc. I dont know how valid my reasoning is (as i think you cannot focus on impact on individual swaras in isolation necessarily as the shade of the swara could depend on other swaras, not necessarily adjoining ones? etc.)

So at this point my suggestion is to stick to the current order at least for bit longer.

Arun

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 04 Oct 2006, 22:24

arunk,

Is it time for vanaspati then? Not the one used in kitchen

-Ramakriya

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 04 Oct 2006, 22:35

Ramakriya,
Wish I were there in the Bay area! The best way to get familiarized with a rAgA--especially a rarely sung one--is to hear an RTP in it. The rAgA then stays with me.
Interesting comments from you and Arunk. I was listening to the mELA rAgAs on the musicnirvana site that Lji had posted.
S. Rajam is great in presenting them. However, listening to them one after the other in order was too much 'education' and the similarities confused me! I randomly picked them from then on and it was fine! This is from a rasikA's point of view. You serious learners of music may see it differently...

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 04 Oct 2006, 22:35

i guess so. Although we didnt discuss janyas of sAmavarALi (pUrvavarALi and bhinnapancamam) as mentioned in SSP. But I am not sure we can come up with renditions for them - SSP mentions only gItams. Are there any krithis?

Now you suggested people try to sing based on notation in SSP - isnt that bit of a tall order

? I also wonder if people get nervous based on what purists may think

?!!?

Arun

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 04 Oct 2006, 22:38

Ramakriya,
You may hear vanaspathi in the kitchen but not use it!

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 04 Oct 2006, 22:40

I agree with arun. It keeps the discussion together to do the mELas sequentially. It certainly helps to see what differences to look for inspite of the large overlap/ similarity. I also appreciate the difficulties because of similarities. But I thought the amount of time we are spending on each mELa should help in assimilating by hearing what little we have.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 04 Oct 2006, 22:42

We havent been having list updates from lakshman. Lakshman, please post compositions in each mELa as we go along.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 04 Oct 2006, 22:43

BTW, we havent discussed gAnasAmavarALi at all yet.

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 04 Oct 2006, 22:44

arasi wrote:Ramakriya,
You may hear vanaspathi in the kitchen but not use it!

Staying off hydogenated fats is a healthy choice, of course

-Ramakriya

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 04 Oct 2006, 22:47

kiransurya wrote:Here is the recording (from Shivkumar kalyanaraman's archives page) of Susarla Sivaram singing Brihadeeswaro in Gaanasaamavarali
http://www.ecse.rpi.edu/Homepages/shivk ... hithar.mp3

Yes.. Kiransurya had posted this link for gAnasAmavarALi. A vey good lakshya example to see the difference between gAnamUrti, and gAnasAmavarALi.

Arun, Let's get back to Hema Ramanathan's book to trace the history for sAMavarALi

-Ramakriya

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 04 Oct 2006, 22:51

ramakriya wrote:Arun, Let's get back to Hema Ramanathan's book to trace the history for sAMavarALi

I happen to be "working" (;)) from home today - so i will try to do this in a shortwhile

Arun

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 04 Oct 2006, 22:55

Actually I did dig this up a bit before checking on what subbarAma dIkshitar said: Maharishis bharata, mAtanga, as well as SArngadEva, rAmamatya, vEnkaTAmakhi and so on have clearly stated that this sAmavarALi rAgam is born out of sAma vEdam.
Although my check wasnt thorough i couldnt locate the reference to sAmavarALi in sangItaratnAkarA or brhhaddesi (??).

Arun

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 04 Oct 2006, 23:54

An interesting bit of quote from Sri N Ramanathans paper on

The Role of Research in Music Education

In the area of raga classification it has been shown that the mela system has developed beyond its limits. Instead of remaining a set of seven svara-sthana-s, abstracted from raga-s sharing common svara-sthana-s, the mela itself grew into a super-raga. The conception of mela should have stopped at the level of the 'thata' of North Indian music.

You can see paper at the following link:

http://www.indiamusicforum.com/seminar/toim/toim22.htm

-Ramakriya

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 05 Oct 2006, 00:44

Instead of remaining a set of seven svara-sthana-s, abstracted from raga-s sharing common svara-sthana-s, the mela itself grew into a super-raga. The conception of mela should have stopped at the level of the 'thata' of North Indian music.

???
Surely he doesnt mean that kharaharapriya and harikhAmbhOji and many others shouldnt have been created?

Perhaps he means that it is not uncommon to use mELa and mELA-rAga interchangeably? But that is not an inherent limitation of the system but is a result of (mis)interpretation.

In any case IMHO any mELA classification is inherently limiting as it fails to disambiguate even the simple audava, Sadava cases.

Arun

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 05 Oct 2006, 01:00

arunk wrote:In any case IMHO any mELA classification is inherently limiting as it fails to disambiguate even the simple audava, Sadava cases.

Although on second thoughts, this perceived limitation itself may be because of subconsciously associating mELA to mELA rAga!! For example, if janya raga "J" is assigned to mELA "M", many of us want to see/hear some semblance of mELA rAGA "M" in "J". I think that is the core problem being hinted here. Prof Ramanathan is may be hinting that we shouldnt treat the mELA rAGa "M" as anything special, but simply like any other janya of the mELA. Thus, if one then simply takes mELA assignment as a purely classification means without looking for additional melodic relationships particularly to the mELA rAga since it isnt special, then the scheme of the "first mELA" that includes the swara-sthanas of J would suffice (even if that means many "nice" ragas end up in vivAdi mELas

)

Arun

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 05 Oct 2006, 03:05

I just read thorugh that paper. Before I read it, I thought it was sensible and that I would agree with it. But after reading it, I have changed my opinion :rolleyes: The guy is making some sweeping statements. If he had simply said interpreting mELas as rAgas was a mistake, yes he would have had a clear point. But no, not only does he say that 53 mELa rAgas were created but also their many janyas? What utter rot! And just read that paragraph about later interpolation of sAhitya. I got completely lost there. And I simply could not understand why santAna rAmaswAminam had to be mentioned there. It was jut left hanging in the air.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 05 Oct 2006, 03:08

arunk wrote:Thus, if one then simply takes mELA assignment as a purely classification means without looking for additional melodic relationships particularly to the mELA rAga since it isnt special, then the scheme of the "first mELA" that includes the swara-sthanas of J would suffice (even if that means many "nice" ragas end up in vivAdi mELas )

This is a limited and limiting view Arun. Agreed that mELa classification has its limitations, many of which are due in no small measure to misinterpretations. The placement of janyas under mELas is not and should not be a random process. Yes there have been errors and ambiguities but cant we learn to live with ambiguity? If all did not have the obsession to place every rAga under "one particular mELa", there would be much less problems.

Lakshman · Post by **Lakshman** » 05 Oct 2006, 03:29

Sorry I am a little tardy on this.
Songs in gAnamUrti:

Aneka vela rupamulu dharinchi satya dharmadula- -Sriramachandra Murti Sistla
Are vidurakrura (lng)-Triputa-Govindacharya
Arul purivai-Adi-Chitravina N.Ravikiran
Brihadishvaro rakshatu mam hari brahmendra-Rupaka-Muttusvami Dikshitar
Edisakegina- -Sriramachandra Murti Sistla
Gana kaladhara gangadhara vasi-Adi-Bellary Sheshagiriachar
Gana rupini madhura gita vinodini amba-Rupaka-Kadalur Subramaniam
Ganamurte shri krishna venugana tribhuvana-Adi-
Ganamurti-Adi-Bangalore S.Mukund
Ganamurti dhyanadi smarituve ninna kirti-Chapu-Bellary Sheshagiriachar
Ganamurti kalyanamurti gangeyamurti karunalayamurti-Adi-D.Pattammal
Hari haratmajam ayyappa svaminam-Adi-R.K.Suryanarayana
I bhuvilona impuga avatarinchina vari seshadri- -Sriramachandra Murti Sistla
Ma madhura sarasa sarasama sadguna-Adi-Kotishvara Iyer
Nada sudhakaram vandeham narada muni-Adi-Ashok R.Madhav
Nambi vazhginren nambane unaiye-Adi-Shuddhananda Bharati
Navalam tivinar navin nayakiyai-Rupaka-Tamizhnambi
Omkara nada- -Sriramachandra Murti Sistla
Pahi jagadishvara purahara mam pahi sakala loka-C/Triputa-Balamuralikrishna
Rama ramana-Adi-R.K.Suryanarayana
Ranaviddha asurure gaja varada(lkg)-Matya-Venkatamakhi
Sangita gana- -Bangalore S.Mukund
Shri guruvara ehi pahi-Rupaka-R.S.Gururajachar
Shripate premamuga kapadutakidi-Rupaka-Vina Sheshanna
Tappadu gadara (p)- -Sriramachandra Murti Sistla
vEda mAyam nI jyOti mAyam nI gAna vaDivam nI-Adi-?
Vetrigalin mudarp-porule (f)-?-Ilayaraja
Yochimpanela-Adi-Dokka Sriramamurti

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 05 Oct 2006, 03:31

:)

I wasnt necessarily advocating that view - merely trying to find the reasoning used in the paper (must admit i didnt read it, only the tiny excerpt in ramakriya's post). I guess if one takes the "fun" out of things, stay away from trouble, things gets predictable but also ends up becoming academic and irrelavant for practical use

. Theory likes things to not have exceptions - but practice thrives on it

I dont like the "first mela that fits" scheme at all. I like assignments made on melodic relationships. The only trouble is it gets subjective.

Arun

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 05 Oct 2006, 03:39

I dont like the "first mela that fits" scheme at all. I like assignments made on melodic relationships. The only trouble is it gets subjective.

Good point. E.g. some have argued Mohanam belongs under Mechakalyani rather than Harikambodhi.

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 05 Oct 2006, 03:45

jayaram wrote:Good point. E.g. some have argued Mohanam belongs under Mechakalyani rather than Harikambodhi.

If you search sawf (www.sawf.org) archives, you will find an article by Rajan Parrikar, where Pandit Ramashrey Jha illustrates how (and why) bhoop is born out of yaman; in our context mOhana from kalyANi. This may be an article discussing yaman and it's derivatives.

-Ramakriya

kartik · Post by **kartik** » 07 Oct 2006, 07:51

A rasali-vanaspati janya
http://www.rogepost.com/dn/6i0c
Whats the aro avaro for this raga?

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 07 Oct 2006, 07:53

Wait your turn kartik

We are not done with gAnasAmavarALi yet.

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 07 Oct 2006, 10:52

kartik wrote:A rasali-vanaspati janya
http://www.rogepost.com/dn/6i0c
Whats the aro avaro for this raga?

A quick answer:

s r1 m1 p d2 n2 s - s d2 p m1 r1 s

Also known by the name vanAvali, vanALi

-Ramakriya

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 07 Oct 2006, 14:07

Ramakriya
Now you ought to have your knuckles rapped too for jumping the queue.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 07 Oct 2006, 22:42

drs,

We need some insights from you to discuss more on gAnasAmavarALi. Besides what I posted after listening to that rendition, i dont have much else, except for some historical perspectives:

In terms of history, references (for sAmavarALi) do start from swaramELakalAnidi (rAmamatya) who says it comes from sAma vEda. As noted earlier, SSP mentions earlier texts to also claim this, but i cannot find the relevant references in those texts from my reference books.

The name with the prefix "gAna" appears first with mudduvEnkaTamakhi, and hence is obviously is an intentional prefix to satisfy the katapayadi scheme.

There was some confusion in swaramElakalAnidi and rAgatALacintAmaNi (1600-1700) by associating sAmavarALi to suddhavarALi, which as documented in those texts has the same set of swaras except for the higher madhyama. However, paNDarIkaviTTala makes both ragas the same but both carrying the higher madyama. Hence, Hema Ramanathan opines that perhaps sAmavarALi later on took lower madyama in the south but still carried its earlier association to suddhavarALi for some time. Of course, this again would have to be reconciled with the SSP claim that bharata, mAtanga, and SarngadEva say sAmavaRaLi comes from sAmavEda, since that implies sAmavaRAli is very very very old (to have come from another rAga).

(my admittedly wild hypothesis):
Perhaps the belief during rAmamatya's time that it came from sAmavEda (as noted in swaramELakalAnidi), sort of developed to something bigger by SSP's time (?). Actually I am skeptical that rAga with a vivadi swara could have come from sAmavEda which is theorized to be based on a kharaharapriya like scale - i.e. the same as sadja-grama. I apply this same skepticism to the "old" mukhAri. The case of sAmavarALi coming from sAmavEda, and also that of mukhAri could (albeit complex) by-products of confusion after 13th century about what the suddha-swaras were in the grama-system. May be ragas were completely lost during the period when grama system went out of vogue, sa as only tonic arrived, and mEla system took shape. They were then "revived" (to keep in line with tradition) but possibly in a wrong way due to misinterpretation of the suddha-swaras (so R2 -> R1, G2 -> G1). But I am not that convinced of this "theory" either - as it does too much of bold and daring revisionism

Arun

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 10 Oct 2006, 20:33

as nobody else have stuff to add to gAnamUrti and gAnasAmavarALi, can we please move on to the next mELa?

Arun

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 10 Oct 2006, 21:09

arun
Give me some time. Hopefully today or tomororow, I will write a brief note on gAnasAmavarALi.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 10 Oct 2006, 22:10

no problem - drs.

Arun

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 11 Oct 2006, 04:56

gAna sAmavarALi is the 3rd asampUrNa mELa. It is the second of the pUrva prasiddha mELas. Its scale is

SR1M1PD1N3S* | S*NDPMG1RS ||

Thus, the gAndhAra, as expected, is eschewed from the ascent. Its madhyama mUrchane is SAmaLa, the 55th asampUrNa mELa. The rAga is very melodious.

As arun has already pointed out, this rAga is purportedly derived from the sAmavEda but this belief has been questioned by many a scholar. Clearly the concept of which swaras were "Suddha" has changed. Possibly this led to the belief that sAmavarALi is derived from sAmavEda. SO it is believed. Now I have some doubts, not necesssarily about this rAga but generally about the swaras used in mantras. Take for instance the mantra puShpa. We clearly have N2 and R1 apart from S and occasional P. This stOtra immediately bring rAga rEvati to mind. So, were the swaras of vEdas just restricted to the kharaharapriya scale? (Even this is strictly not correct as the D is neither D1 nor D2 but triSruti.)

And yes sAmavarALi is the name to which the kaTapayAdi prefix "gAna" has been added later. vEnkaTamakhi has discussed the rAga in CP in many places.

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 11 Oct 2006, 06:13

Lakshman-ji, are there any varnams in Ganamurthy?

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 11 Oct 2006, 07:26

drshrikaanth wrote:Now I have some doubts, not necesssarily about this rAga but generally about the swaras used in mantras. Take for instance the mantra puShpa. We clearly have N3 and R1 apart from S and occasional P. This stOtra immediately bring rAga rEvati to mind. So, were the swaras of vEdas just restricted to the kharaharapriya scale?

I saw this reference http://www.carnaticcorner.com/articles/ ... tation.txt where Srini Pichumani has posted on the subject of veda recitation, variations among schools, pitches employed etc. He also mentions various reference materials.

I have not read through this yet - it seems quite voluminuos.

Arun

PS: I hope Srini is treated more kindly this time

.

Lakshman · Post by **Lakshman** » 11 Oct 2006, 17:05

Mohan: I don't have any varNAs listed under gAnamUrti.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 12 Oct 2006, 22:17

drs - we want to protect our knuckles and so i think we are all waiting for your signal (wherever it may point)

;)

Arun

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 12 Oct 2006, 22:24

LOL. I was looking forward to more input from you and others. Anyway, if nothing more to say regarding gAnasAmavarALi, we could move on to mELa 4- vanaspati/bhAnumati. There will be more audio to listen to Im sure.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 12 Oct 2006, 23:23

. I dont have enough references with me now to properly introduce the next mELA. Others can do it - otherwise I will try to do it later today.

Arun

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 13 Oct 2006, 00:07

OK, Here I go with whatever I remember from the top of my head

sampURNa mELa 4: vanaspati s r1 g1 m1 p d2 n2 s - s n2 d2 p m1 g1 r s

This is a krama sampURna rAga, swaras taken by the rAga are shuddha rishabha, gAndhAra, madhyama, chatusshruti dhaivata and kaishiki nishAda. The d2-n2 combination makes it more 'lively' than the mELa rAgas 1,2 and 3, IMO.

Interestingly enough, rAmAmAtya equated his rItigouLa mELa to take the swaras that we assoiciate with this mELa. I do not remember the entire shlOka which goes something like "shuddhAh sarigamAH pashch panchashrutikaH dhaivataH ...". venkaTamakhi takes rAmAmAtya to task in the mELaprakaraNa of of his caturdanDi prakAshike. Again, the definition of rAmAmAtya's shuddha svaras is disputed by some scholars - so I will leave it at that.

tyAgarAja has composed one kriti in vanaspati - pariyAcakamA mATa; Several renderings are available. There are many renderings (M Santhanam, Kadri Gopalanath etc..) on the net. Time for some net audio sleuthwork

BMK and kOtiswara aiyer also have kritis in this mELa rAga. BMK's kriti Ishwari jagadIshwari, also has the rAgamudre in calling the goddess as "vansapati priyE".

asmPUrNa mELa 4: bhAnumati s r1 m1 p d2 n2 s - s n2 d2 p m1 g1 r1 s

This rAga drops gAndhAra in ArOhana prayOgas. MD has composed a kriti "brhadambA madambA jayati" in this rAga. No audio link as of now - but hey! I know this kriti, and sing it and upload in the coming days

when we are discussing this mELa!

-Ramakriya

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 13 Oct 2006, 01:48

Kotiswara Iyer's composition also uses the rAga mudra as 'gAna vanaspatE' (nija dAsa nESa guhESanE - http://www.karnatik.com/c1760.shtml).

Ravi