You have very well defended your side. I very much enjoyed the academic debate and your tenacity. Let me recount an anecdote here during my early career days at the med school. A good friend of mine who was brilliant was defending his 'long case' (important make or break case for diagnosis) for his MS (Master of Surgery). The examiner was a very famous surgeon but extremely tough on isssues. My friend 'X' claimed that the patient had a tiny tumour (cancer) which was causing the problem. The patient also had TB and the Prof was adament that it was due to TB. He failed X on that score claimng that it was a misdiagnosis. X claimed that the tumour was too small to be detected on X-rays or palpation (feeling by hand) (those were the days of no MRI or other sophisticated apparatus). Now X had to wait for two more years to try again if the board permits. X was devastated and unconsolable. That night the patient died and X went to the relatives and begged them permission to peform an autopsy (usually in those days they don't permit autopsies thinking it was mutilating the dead body!). But they took pity on X and agreed. He promptly got the pathologist and performed the autopsy and there it was; the tumour too small but blocking the crucial respiratory passage. The Prof was called in the middle of the night which he grudgingly obliged. Rest is history. X passed with flying colours and later became a famous surgeon. I had met him on a few occasions during my visit to India.
Thank you for sharing this. Here is one from me: When I was in the 9th grade my math teacher had a brilliant idea: she decided to move the academically worst student in the class to share a desk with me (by the combined grace of all Devi-Devtas I was academically the best student in the class). Her hope was that my sincerity would rub off on him. Unfortunately after spending 6 months of class with this chap my grades had fallen sharply and I was beginning to pick up undesirable and time-wasting habits, whereas he continued to show all characteristics of a dullard. At this time I realized that it is difficult to clean up another person but it is easy to become contaminated. Henceforth I spent my time only in company of a good quality, such as the persons on this fine forum here.
But here is the Irony of Fate. He died of Lung Cancer during the prime of his life. He was a chain smoker (a habit he cultivated during the hectic medical career) I will comment on your analysis and some more on the atana issue later tomorrow since I am on a rush! Cheers!
I am sorry to hear about your friend. Indeed Temptation knocks on the door hard and often. Evidently you have not fallen prey to such dirty habits (smoking, alcoholism, running after ladies etc) and are continuing a long, fruitful and saintly life. I urge you to continue this practice and remain a role model for us younger chaps.
So what is the bottom line. Is ADANA and ATANA related? Here is a quote
from Rao,B. Subba
RAGANIDHI- A Comparative Study of Hindustani and Karnatak Ragas: Volume 1. Madras, India: The Music Academy.(Courtesy of Lakshman)
The first part is distinctly ADANA (thanks to coolkarni for flooding me with nice ADANA clips exposing me to this beautiful variant of DK!) and the latter clearly is ATANA as any CM ear will vouch. They are very much alike aurally and visually. Checkout
Hence in my view SR has successfully shown the similarity between the two ragas. But as regards the question of whether the CM raga was derived from the HM raga the historical or otherwise evidence is not there. Also we know there is much more to aTana than aDANA. Such a generalization would be like concluding that a monkey was originally a kangaroo since both have a prehensile tail.
SR's 'cha dhaivatam' is still close to nishaadam; too close for comfort. He may justify it on the basis of gamakam excursions. But there is a more tangible reason. The gamakam on dhaivatam in aTana is what is called 'vali'. (Ref p171, RagalakShaNasangraha Hema Ramanathan (2004))
See my discussion of vali DRS http://www.freepgs.com/carnatic/viewtop ... start=1350
Hence since he is subconsciously rendering aTana he is automatically using the appropriate gamakam.
Now I don't have much to say on this topic. If I were reviewing the thesis of SR, I would vote in his favour provided that he adds the disclaimer:
"while there is good similarity in certain areas between ADANA and ATANA there is at present no conclusive evidence to claim that either of them evolved from the other".
Let us get back to listening to aThANA our majestic CM raga
'aTati rAjEva rAgamadhyE' (strides like a king among the ragas)
and in clusion just listen to our incomparable AriyakkuDi Ramanuja Iyengar who belted it out in all its glory (over 70 years ago) in about three minutes. http://rapidshare.de/files/21610301/Anu ... a.mp3.html
Thank you
CML Wrote: Also we know there is much more to aTana than aDANA.
I was listening to another aThANa song today on Nadaswaram and the same thought occurred to me as well. Meaning, it sounds like there is more to aTaNa than the "mapped" phrases that SR has sung. Unfortunately, I can not provide any prayoga reference to substatiate this one way or the other since I am not skilled at that, but it sounds that way.
So, SR, outside of the question of the inheritance relationship between the two, are the 5 prayogams comprise the full set of the jIva proyogams of aThANa or are there more? Second, sort of related, if we are talking about aThANa in isolation ( and not in the aDANA context,) is the aThANa raga lakshanam typically include the 5 prayogams exactly as you had used? Third, are there differences between aThANa and aDANA in terms of how the prayograms are chained together?
So what is the bottom line. Is ADANA and ATANA related? Here is a quote
from Rao,B. Subba
RAGANIDHI- A Comparative Study of Hindustani and Karnatak Ragas: Volume 1. Madras, India: The Music Academy.(Courtesy of Lakshman)
This is interesting. However, the only difference I have with the views of Subba Rao is that the gandhara in modern aThANa is not tivra (antara). Thus the main difference is the dhaivata, whereas the gandhara while still being sadharana/komal, is severely curtailed in comparison to aDANa.
Hence in my view SR has successfully shown the similarity between the two ragas. But as regards the question of whether the CM raga was derived from the HM raga the historical or otherwise evidence is not there.
I am not claiming that I proved the historical link already. I have already suggested it, and I am currently studying this aspect before making a detailed post.
Also we know there is much more to aTana than aDANA.
I am not sure I agree with this (see my other reply below). I agree that CM alapanas often appear a lot more "busy" than HM alaps. In most cases, a closer look reveals that CM practitioners focus on weaving a large number of potentially interesting variations on the same core theme; whereas HM practitioners focus on tonal precision and meditative impact. I am not saying the CM practitioners necessarily lack tonal precision or that HM practitioners necessarily lack imagination. The approach is different, although the core of the raga is the same.
Such a generalization would be like concluding that a monkey was originally a kangaroo since both have a prehensile tail.
In the present case, the head and body look very similar, only the "tail" of the pUrvanga portion looks different. If I insisted on "animal kingdom" analogies, I would rather compare a monkey and a chimpanzee.
SR's 'cha dhaivatam' is still close to nishaadam; too close for comfort.
There is no basis for this statement. Your conclusion was based upon an incorrect method of analysis, as I showed clearly in the previous post.
He may justify it on the basis of gamakam excursions. But there is a more tangible reason. The gamakam on dhaivatam in aTana is what is called 'vali'. (Ref p171, RagalakShaNasangraha Hema Ramanathan (2004))
See my discussion of vali DRS http://www.freepgs.com/carnatic/viewtop ... start=1350
Hence since he is subconsciously rendering aTana he is automatically using the appropriate gamakam.
This is a rather convoluted explanation. I agree that the gamaka is a vali, however, it seems that you are also explaining it on basis of the same "gamaka excursions" that I was referring to. So I will assume that we now agree on this issue, however circuitous the path to this result.
Now I don't have much to say on this topic. If I were reviewing the thesis of SR, I would vote in his favour provided that he adds the disclaimer:
"while there is good similarity in certain areas between ADANA and ATANA there is at present no conclusive evidence to claim that either of them evolved from the other".
At this point this is all I am claiming. I have not claimed that everything is conclusively proved. I agree with your present assessment; however, the circumstantial evidence points to a deeper relationship which may be uncovered by further examination.
Bottomline: aDANa and aThANa are highly similar ragas and in addition carry the same name. In my book, that is strong circumstantial evidence that justifies further follow-up.
Let us get back to listening to aThANA our majestic CM raga
'aTati rAjEva rAgamadhyE' (strides like a king among the ragas)
and in clusion just listen to our incomparable AriyakkuDi Ramanuja Iyengar who belted it out in all its glory (over 70 years ago) in about three minutes. http://rapidshare.de/files/21610301/Anu ... a.mp3.html
Thanks for the recording. Excellent alapana before the kRti. I am not a votary of Aryakudi's "madhyamakala paddhati" for kRti rendition - I realize that the fast recordings were useful for gramophone recordings, but I also believe he was the forerunner of today's maniacal speedsters. However, I do tend towards abbreviated alapanas that expose the raga in detail without wasting time.
I was listening to another aThANa song today on Nadaswaram and the same thought occurred to me as well. Meaning, it sounds like there is more to aTaNa than the "mapped" phrases that SR has sung. Unfortunately, I can not provide any prayoga reference to substatiate this one way or the other since I am not skilled at that, but it sounds that way.
Consider, for example, the Aryakudi alapana that CMLover shared. Of the 12-odd phrases he sang, 10 were essentially identical with a couple of additional excursions into the pUrvAnga (via the "g m r s" phrase) in the tara and madhya octaves. It is also at these points that the kAnaDa connection becomes glaringly obvious (to my ear at least).
So, SR, outside of the question of the inheritance relationship between the two, are the 5 prayogams comprise the full set of the jIva proyogams of aThANa or are there more?
I would say, pretty much. The main one that I didn't take up in the demo was the "p d d n n s" phrase that usually ends in "n R S n p". This phrases also brings out the kAnaDa origin of the raga. Also see my reply to CMLover.
Second, sort of related, if we are talking about aThANa in isolation ( and not in the aDANA context,) is the aThANa raga lakshanam typically include the 5 prayogams exactly as you had used?
Mostly these prayogas are embellished with minor excursions back and forth, as shown very well by Aryakudi. This nicely creates an illusion of a "busy" alapana.
Third, are there differences between aThANa and aDANA in terms of how the prayograms are chained together?
For the most part, they are similar - except that gandhara is rarely used as a nyAsa swara in aThANa, whereas it is used in aDANa. The panchama and dhaivata are used regularly as nyAsa swaras in both ragas.
you seem to have a rather simplistic view of aTaNa. It is a complex and major ragam of CM. All the phrases that you have listed are Sd,np imbedded in othe phrases. It indeed suits your comparison with ADANa.To claim that there are none other except purvanga prayogas pddnns nRSnp is a gross oversimplification. Just look at
Also riShabham is an important nyaasa svaram which cannot be sweeped under the carpet. Whereas ARI uses the uttaranga and taara sancaaram effectively SSI delights in the purvanga sancaaras and uses the old (GGRS)(sa gaandhaaram) (note the referred site attributes atana to 29th meLa as was the older practice). Perhaps an aTaNa RTP will clinch the issue! Do we have any?
you seem to have a rather simplistic view of aTaNa. It is a complex and major ragam of CM. All the phrases that you have listed are Sd,np imbedded in othe phrases.
I would characterize my view as "simplified" rather than "simplistic". I of course understand that there are a number of possible variations. Even in aDANa one can sing many variations of the same theme.
It indeed suits your comparison with ADANa.To claim that there are none other except purvanga prayogas pddnns nRSnp is a gross oversimplification.
It seems we are agreeing while insisting upon disagreeing. I clearly understand that there are a large number of variations possible. However, whichever way one cuts it, the key phrases which immediately lead to recognition of the raga are essentially covered in a simplified description.
Again, I do not see any substantially new information here. All the sancharas mentioned are essentially variations on the same theme. The only part that is "new" (underlined) is what I just mentioned in a recent post.
Also riShabham is an important nyaasa svaram which cannot be sweeped under the carpet.
I made no attempt to sweep it under the carpet.
Whereas ARI uses the uttaranga and taara sancaaram effectively SSI delights in the purvanga sancaaras and uses the old (GGRS)(sa gaandhaaram)
One can use any sancharas that are legitimate. However the purvanga sancharas do not carry the stamp of the raga that leads to immediate recognition when it is sung.
(note the referred site attributes atana to 29th meLa as was the older practice). Perhaps an aTaNa RTP will clinch the issue! Do we have any?
As has been noted, that classification is obsolete and is based on a fixation with the "G3 M R S" usage. As understood from our existing discussion, this approach seems illogical considering its rare use in the first place, as well as the existence of much more important phrases that do not fit at all in 29th janya ragas.
Wow! What a debate!! If you both come to a total agreement about all this, I think "the right person" should give a simplified explanation of why one was right over the other. I think a greater number of rasikas will be able to appreciate the debate that way, as it has grown quite complex over time.
Here is my final (kritrima) experiment. The first file is a computerized aalaapana of atana stringing some of the common phrases (which I had done before) http://rapidshare.de/files/21954785/AtanaExpt.wav.html
please listen to it very carefully. I am sure you will agree it is a 'classical' atana.
Now listen to the "ADanized" atana http://rapidshare.de/files/21954886/ADanaExpt.wav.html
The only difference is the use of shuddha dhaivatam in place of the cha dhaivatam. When you listen carefully, granting for the weirdness at times I wonder whether you hear ADANa. This is the reverse of what SR has done. He went from ADANa to atana by replacing the su dhaivatam. Here we go from atana to 'ADANA'. Let us hear the objective views of our rasikas as to whether they hear ADANa here. Please note that the replacement of dhaivatam is precise since it is computer mediated and none of the other gamakas are modified.
With the disclaimer that I do not have a good conception of ADANa, this is my subjective feel after listening to the two pieces: If the first piece is 100% aTTANa, the second piece has a 70% aTTANa feel ( the occasional 'hmm.. what is that' contributing to the 30% reduction ).
Here is my final (kritrima) experiment. The first file is a computerized aalaapana of atana stringing some of the common phrases (which I had done before) http://rapidshare.de/files/21954785/AtanaExpt.wav.html
please listen to it very carefully. I am sure you will agree it is a 'classical' atana.
Now listen to the "ADanized" atana http://rapidshare.de/files/21954886/ADanaExpt.wav.html
The only difference is the use of shuddha dhaivatam in place of the cha dhaivatam. When you listen carefully, granting for the weirdness at times I wonder whether you hear ADANa. This is the reverse of what SR has done. He went from ADANa to atana by replacing the su dhaivatam. Here we go from atana to 'ADANA'. Let us hear the objective views of our rasikas as to whether they hear ADANa here. Please note that the replacement of dhaivatam is precise since it is computer mediated and none of the other gamakas are modified.
Dear rasikas speak up!
The second piece does not sound anything like aDANa (other than having the same scale), and it won't either. We have had this discussion before - I'll revisit it again here briefly. Taking a karnatak alapana and plugging a shuddha dhaivata into it will not produce hindustani aDANa. This is a completely inapplicable approach that does not appreciate the intricacies of either karnatak or hindustani sangeet.
I would like to disclaim your statement that "your experiment is the reverse of mine". It is not the reverse of my experiment in any sense. I have not taken a hindustani alap or khayal or dhrupad in aDANa and tried to insert a chatussruti dhaivata to see if it sounds like aThANa. I have already cautioned you about the futility of such experiments. What I did in my demo was to consider the main phraseology of the ragas and bring out the similarities, which attests to their common origin. After that, CM and HM have diverged widely in terms of how they develop and present ragas.
Again - to understand the relationship between CM and HM ragas of some antiquity like aThANa and aDANa, a superficial analysis of "how it sounds" is insufficient. HM does not have a component sufficiently similar to a CM alapana, neither does CM have a good equivalent of a HM alap. To try and gauge the similarity of two ragas based on only CM or HM practice leads to gross distortion. CM and HM build up music from ragas in very different ways. You cannot compare apples with oranges. What is important is:
1) Break down the raga into key phraseology and analyze that.
2) Compare other important clues like raga names, allied ragas, etc.
3) Ascertain textual evidence in the medieval granthas and later texts.
Again, some careful thought is required to fully appreciate the thought-processes of our musicologists over the ages. I urge you to consider this within the context of your well-developed scholarly bent of mind.
Soon I will be commencing my analysis of the textual evidence, and I am sure others who also have access to musicological texts will feel it appropriate to contribute facts contained in them (as opposed to opinions). I assure you the textual evidence is most interesting in exploring the origins of aDANa/aThANa in the kAnaDa fold.
I am enclosing the picture below. The left wave pattern is aDDANa and the right wave pattern is aTTANa.
In this instance, the gamakam on 'dha' looks to be different between the two. The high point of the oscillation of dha of aTTANa goes quite a bit higher than the aDDANA. ( The approx. reference frequencies are: sa 130, pa 195, SA 260 ). In the case of aTTANa, the gamakam looks like dha-SA-dha-SA where as in aDDAna, dha-Ni-dha-Ni.
Am I reading it right?
It sounds like aTTANa of course, in fact a bit brighter. Is dha-SA-dha-SA the right ( or acceptable ) gamaka for aTTANa? or dha-Ni-Dha-Ni? or either one since the differences are not that much?
I am enclosing the picture below. The left wave pattern is aDDANa and the right wave pattern is aTTANa.
In this instance, the gamakam on 'dha' looks to be different between the two. The high point of the oscillation of dha of aTTANa goes quite a bit higher than the aDDANA. ( The approx. reference frequencies are: sa 130, pa 195, SA 260 ). In the case of aTTANa, the gamakam looks like dha-SA-dha-SA where as in aDDAna, dha-Ni-dha-Ni.
Am I reading it right?
It sounds like aTTANa of course, in fact a bit brighter. Is dha-SA-dha-SA the right ( or acceptable ) gamaka for aTTANa? or dha-Ni-Dha-Ni? or either one since the differences are not that much?
You are right, but the swaras seem to be in reverse.
In aDANa, I stopped first at S' and then executed the meend (glide) to D1.
In aThANa, I stopped at S' and then executed the S--> D2 oscillation twice (and quickly) for emphasis.If I did each of these slowly, it would look more like the meend of aDANa.
Thus in aDANa it was S-D1, and in aThANa it was S-D2-S-D2.
First, I want to sync up on the segment from your demo, it is the dha-ni-pa, the clip of which I uploaded above. Also, this may not necessarily add to the discussion of the connection between the two ragas... this is more to do with making sure I am using the tool right and analyzing the gamaka properly.
I see an oscillation of dha in aDANNA as well and it does not reach S' ( range 211 to 232 ) where as the osciallation of dha in aTTANa reaches well into S' ( 225 to 260 ). Do you see it that way as well? The static FFT picture without any annotation is difficult to refer to, the parameters I used were: FFT Size 16384, freq resolution 4.8 and averaging over 5 msec.
First, I want to sync up on the segment from your demo, it is the dha-ni-pa, the clip of which I uploaded above. Also, this may not necessarily add to the discussion of the connection between the two ragas... this is more to do with making sure I am using the tool right and analyzing the gamaka properly.
I see an oscillation of dha in aDANNA as well and it does not reach S' ( range 211 to 232 ) where as the osciallation of dha in aTTANa reaches well into S' ( 225 to 260 ). Do you see it that way as well? The static FFT picture without any annotation is difficult to refer to, the parameters I used were: FFT Size 16384, freq resolution 4.8 and averaging over 5 msec.
After looking at your FFT again, I am not sure how it compares to mine. I took the clip of Phrase I posted by CMLover and analyzed that in entirety. Is your clipping from Phrase I as well ?
Also, I do not know if the FFT is really valid on a 3-second clip. As far as I know, the fewer data points one has, the more the noise and false oscillations that can crop up in the FFT result. You might have selected the 16384 FFT points option, however, I do not know how many data points are in the original file and if they are enough to justify the use of a hi-res FFT.
Again, one good way to make sure is "reality checks". If I executed 2 oscillations/gamakas, it should show up. In the aDANA segments all I wanted to do was to show the meend from S (N2)---> D1. As far as I know I did not execute it twice. If I did it twice in a phrase, it would should up as two N2-->D1 oscillations.
Also, I do not know if the FFT is really valid on a 3-second clip. As far as I know, the fewer data points one has, the more the noise and false oscillations that can crop up in the FFT result. You might have selected the 16384 FFT points option, however, I do not know how many data points are in the original file and if they are enough to justify the use of a hi-res FFT.
That is a very crucial point. I noticed that the sample size is ~4KB which is inadequate to discriminate the nishadam and dhaivatam. It is spurious claim that the FFT has the sensitivity to distinguish 4.8Hz @5ms resolution.The 16385 option requires that many data points to actually discriminate and with just 25% of that sample the errorband is too wide.I am afraid we are arguing about tweedledum and tweedledee!
We now have to start focussing on the literature than on 'phrases' on which we are unlikely t arrive at a consensus since in my view you have oversimplified the musical structure of atana vis-a-vis ADANA. Would you have the 'pakad' as wel as the aro/avaro of ADANA as per HM practices?
After looking at your FFT again, I am not sure how it compares to mine. I took the clip of Phrase I posted by CMLover and analyzed that in entirety. Is your clipping from Phrase I as well ?
No, the clipping is not from Phrase I. I am sorry for not stating that explicitly. It is from a sement prior to that where you were comparing and contrasting the two ragas. ( 8:20 to 8:24 )
Also, I do not know if the FFT is really valid on a 3-second clip. As far as I know, the fewer data points one has, the more the noise and false oscillations that can crop up in the FFT result.
Yes, it is quite possible. ( you mean, because there is not enough data prior to that for the FFT to adapt to the channel? ) The one thing I can say is, before 'clip'ping just that three second portion, I remember looking at a larger segment length 'in context' and I remember seeing the oscillation. But I can not swear by it. If I find that I will post.
Let us move forward in analyzing the textual evidence. Thus far, the situation is the following:
1) aDANA and aThANA have strong phraseological similarities, although they are developed and sung in different ways in the hindustani and karnatak traditions.
2) They carry the same name.
3) aThANA is placed in the 22nd melakarta along with kAnaDa (with which it shares many similarities), whereas aDANA in the hindustani tradition is a kAnaDa variety.
4) Allied ragas in HM are aDANA, darbArI kAnaDa, nAyakI kAnaDa, and sahAnA kAnaDa. In CM, ragas such as aThANA, kAnaDa, nAyakI, sahAnA, and darbAr have strong similarities.
To begin the analysis, I find it useful to employ the references to aDANA/aThANA in the following work:
"Music Systems in India: A Comparative Study of the Leading Music Systems of the 15th, 16th, 17th, and 18th Centuries".
Author: Pandit V.N. Bhatkhande (VNB).
A useful feature of this work is that it collects the author's summary analysis on the important treatises of both HM and CM over four centuries. Let us see what VNB mentions pertaining to aDANa/aThANa in each of the following important works.
Regarding aDANA in Northern works:
Text: rAgataranginI Author: Locana, of Mithila (northern Bihar) Date: ca. 1500-1550 CE
Locana has twelve mela ragas. One of these is the karNATa (the word is usually taken to be the same as the modern kAnaDa).
The scale of karNATa mela corresponds to that of the modern harikambhoji (28th) mela.
We do not know if the janya ragas are strictly upAnga or whether bhAshAnga ragas are also included in the various melas. From the list of ragas under karNATa mela, we can draw the following conclusions:
1) aDANA was already closely associated with the kAnaDa group of ragas.
2) The list of janya ragas includes ragas that today are assigned in various melakartas (28, 22, 20, 29 etc). If these were all upAnga ragas of the old karNATa meLa, then clearly they have undergone changes over the centuries.
3) If bhAshAnga ragas were also clubbed together under the same meLa, then this phenomenon can be relatively easy to explain.
Unfortunately, according to VNB, Locana does not give the definitions of the scales of these janya rAgas.
The next few works discussed by VNB are:
rAgamAlA and rAgamanjarI (PunDarIka, northern Maharashtra, ca. 1600). The tables of the meLa and janya ragas do not mention aDANA. Most likely PunDarIka was not exhaustive in his compilation of the ragas.
rasakaumudI (SrIkanTha, Gujarat, ca. 1600). The tables of the meLa and janya ragas do not mention aDANA. However, SrI and karNATa are now different meLas, with the former having the scale of modern kharaharapriyA (22nd) and the latter retaining the scale of modern harikAmbhojI (28th). This classification is the same as that of the sangIta pArijAta by Ahobala (location and period uncertain, but estimated as ca. 1650).
Text: anUpa sangItavilAsa Author: BhavabhaTTa, of Bikaner (Rajasthan) Date: ca. 1675 CE
According to VNB, BhavabhaTTa does not classify ragas into melas. He however describes in detail a number of ragas, among which aDANA is included. The details are not mentioned by VNB.
Additionally, VNB quotes the following Hindi passage from BhavabhaTTa on the variants of kAnaDa:
"Jo darbAri so shuddh kahAve malhAr milAyke nAyakI jano
bAgeSrI dhanASrI ke mile megh mile te aDANA jAno"
hot sahANo mile farodast ke pUriyA jaitSrI surshAno"
"Considering darbArI as the shuddh form (of kAnaDA), by combining it with malhAr, nAyakI kAnaDa is obtained. By combining it with bAgeSrI, dhanASrI, and megh, aDANA kAnaDa is obtained. sahAna kAnaDa is obtained by combining it with farodast (apparently a raga of Persian origin), pUriyA and jaitSri."
These descriptions are essentially repeated in an accompanying work anUpasangItaratnAkara by BhavabhaTTA, which according to VNB is based on the sangItaratnAkara of SArangadeva (ca. 1300).
Thus we see that in North India, the ragas kAnaDa, sahAnA, nAyakI, and aDANA are well-established as being from the same fold.
Regarding aDANA/aThANA in Southern works:
svarameLakalAnidhi (rAmAmAtya, Vijayanagara, ca. 1550). VNB's tables of rAmAmAtya's 20 meLa and 63 janya ragas do not mention aThANA. There are two melas SrIrAga (with scale same as modern 22) and kannaDagauLa (with scale same as modern 28 ).
Text: rAgavibodha Author: somanAtha, of Andhra Date: 1610 CE
somanAtha uses 23 meLa ragas. One of these is karNATagauDa (with its scale same as modern 28th meLa). In karNATagauDa meLa, he lists the following janya ragas:
karNATa (kAnaDa), aDDANA, nAgadhvani, SuddhabangAla, varNanATa, and two apparently "foreign" ragas: turushkatoDi ("Turkish Todi" ?) and IrAkha ("Iraqi" ?)
Clearly then, kAnaDa and aDDANA were considered closely related ragas in South India as early as somanAtha, as was the case also in North India.
caturdandiprakASika (Venkatamakhin, Tanjavur, Tamil Nadu, ca. 1635). Here the former meLa kannaDagauLa seems to have been absorbed as a janya raga into the meLa SrIrAga (with scale same as modern 22). Note that the modern kannaDagauLa is a 22nd janya raga. VNB considers this work only briefly.
sangItasArAmrta (Maharaj Tulajirao Bhonsle, Tanjavur, Tamil Nadu, 1785 CE). Here the meLa kAmbhoji appears (modern 28th). In VNB's table of janya ragas, aDANA/aThANA does not appear. However, as in the case of venkatamakhin, the former meLa kannaDagauLa which seems the same as kAnaDa/karNATa of previous works, is merged as a janya raga into the SrIrAga meLa (with same scale as modern 22). VNB considers this work only briefly.
From the above summaries, one can draw the following conclusions:
1) In the North, ADANA and kANaDa have always been intimately related.
2) This close relation is also seen in the early Southern works of somanAtha and rAmAmAtya.
3) Till the 17th century or so, it is possible that kAnaDa and aDANA/aThANA were sung (at least by some) with a scale of 28th meLa.
4) However, all these ragas (including the allied ragas nAyaki, sahAnA, huseni, etc) underwent changes to reach their present forms. For example, this is seen in the incorporation of the kannaDagauDa mela into the SrIrAga (22nd) meLa by the time of venkatamakhin.
5) In summary, aDANA of the North and aThANA of the South are historically close relations. Their modern versions are very likely the descendents of a single raga with the name aDANA. They have always been strongly related to kAnaDa and followed its scale, whatever its form (28 scale or 22 scale or 20 scale).
In my view, this initial summary strengthens the proposal #2 (in the very first post of this thread) and provides a basis for further detailed examination of the texts mentioned above.
SR, as you drill this down further, I thought I will point this out. In your first post on this thread your proposal 2 was: "They are quite closely related, and the karnatak aThAna may very well be a modification of the hindustani aDAna".. See if your historical literature reading sheds light on the latter point about derivation/modification as well in addition to the closely related issue.
Have a look at the following aTana svarajati of svAti.
Since this is from the svAti Royal manuscripts it is over 170 yearss old traceable to the early days of the Trinity. Look at the phrases carefully and see whether you find any similarity with the sancar of ADANA. You know svAti was quite familiar with HM. SSI of course categorized it as 29th mELam bhAShAnga raagam as did Harikeshanallur Muthiah bhagavatar. I have never heard it rendered. If any it would be rendered only the modern way but there are prominant use of the gaandhaaram. Would you attempt it with an ADANA slant ?
By the by I am awaiting your response to my
Would you have the 'pakad' as well as the aro/avaro of ADANA as per HM practices?
Thanks SR.
Here is an interesting tidbit. Dr PP Naraynaswami in his feature on Ragamalikai (published in the Carnatica net) writes
Swati Tirunal has also composed a rare Ragamalika in Hindustani, that features Hindustani ragas Sohini, Dipchandi, Bibhas, Malhar, Manirang, Kahnhara, Sarang, Gurjari, Hindol, Atana and Shyam.
I have not succeeded inlocating the ragamalikai. The 'Atana' occurring in the midst of the collection of clear HM ragas looks suspicious. It is probably ADANA? I am not aware whether svAti ever composed in ADANA. Certainly neither SSI nor HMB tuned the HM pieces. You may like to pursue this....
The avarohanam of ADANA differs slightly from that of CM aTana. If the HM raga was adopted into CM they would have retained the pattern! Any explanations?
P: sOhani svarUp kAnhA mukh tEj dIp candra calE cAl naTa vibhAs shrI malhAra ban mEn
C1: maNiranga guNa phula bAn (e) man rahU kAnhA dO svarUp lAgE sArang man mEn
2: gujarI hindOl jhUlE jis sE aDAna gODE tErO hi svarUp shyAm padmanAbha tan mEn
Note: This beautiful composition(Sohanisvarupa) has raga mudras in it as follows: Sohini, Deep, Bhibhas, Malhar, Manirang, Kanada, Sarang, Hindol, Atana and Shyam. The current rendering does not follow these ragas
It is a pity the lyric as well as the music is incomplete. We hear Sohini, Manirang, Gurjari and part of DeepchAnd and the music is cut off. Perhaps the lyric did contain all the ragas Sohini, Dipchandi, Bibhas, Malhar, Manirang, Kahnhara, Sarang, Gurjari, Hindol, Atana and Shyam.
which I know are preserved in the Royal scrolls. Our CM aTana has no business to be in this cluster and if it was ADANA then it fits! If it was indeed aTaNa (no spelling mistakes since in malayalam we have all four of the Tavarga we may postulate that in those days our CM aTana was imported and sung by HM folks as well!
The lyric runs as (for those who do not know Malayalam)
pallavi sOhanI svarUp kAnt mukh tEja dIp cand
calE cAl nad vibhAs shrI mal hAr banmE
anupallavi
1. maNira^Ng gUN phUl bAN (A) man sO
radU kAnhaDO
svrUp lAgE sAraMg manmE
2. gUrUji hindOL, chUl, jissusE aThA najhOs
tErOhisva rUp shyAM padmanAbh tan mE
I notice athat all raga names are mentioned here and clearly it is aThAna!
Apparently this is an early attemt at ragamudra kriti. I am unable to hear the different HM ragas here but you guys may try! Since it is aThAna that is in the lyric I doubt very much it was meant to be ADANa.
The ragas occurring in this composition are entirely Hindustani. The ragas mentioned in the rendering are:
sohanI
dIp (there is no raga named dIpcandi)
naT
bibhAS
SrI
malhAr
maNirang
soraT (in HM this is allied to rAga deS)
kAnaDa
sArang
gurjarI
hindoL
aDANA
SyAm
Also a caveat that this has little bearing on the other discussion. The composition dates from the early/mid 1800s by which time HM and CM had clearly separated from each other. ST had many HM scholars in his court and occasionally composed hindustani pieces.
So far, it seems that aDANA shows up clearly in the early Northern texts and much less so in the early Southern texts. Where it shows up in Southern texts, the authors seem to adopt the same classifications as the Northern texts. Tellingly, the CaturdanDiprakASikA does not deal with aThANA or the kAnaDa family at all.
On a related note, there is often confusion in the literature regarding the raga names karNATa (found in the old literature) and the modern-day kAnaDa. Some are of the opinion that karNATa and kAnaDa do not refer to the same raga (or class of ragas). Some invent strange origins for kAnaDa, such as linking it to Krishna (who is referred to in North India as "kAnhA", hence kAnhaDa). Others insist that karNATa refers to the modern-day kannaDa, whereas kAnaDa is a different beast.
In fact, the more one digs into the old lieterature, the more one finds that karNATa and kAnaDa are one and the same. For example, here is a passage regarding karNATa and its various janya ragas from anUpasangItaratnAkara of BhavabhaTTa (ca. 1675 CE, Rajasthan):
If BhavabhaTTa is to be believed (and indeed he is corroborated by earlier works) the old karNATa/karNATagauDa/kAnaDa mela, which was ubiquitous both in North and South India, has provided the seed material for many a modern raga, whether or not they are classified under the same melakarta as modern-day kAnaDa.
aTHANA sounds like it has somewhat less scope, until you peep in and realize the sheer number of arohanams and avarohanam combinations that are possible in it. PNS, PDN2S, DN3S, N2,DS, PS, - SN3D2, SD2, SN2P, SN3P, DN2P, N2DN2P, PMR, PMGMR, both the Ns and both the Gs (although that G3 seems to contrast more than the N3).
Probably the best idea of why a rAgA should never be subject to the constraints of a scale.
Apart from Thyagaraja and OVK's krithis, there is even a kriti of Muthuswami Dikshitar in it, as well as those of Shuddhananda Bharati, Maharaja Jayachamraja Wodeyar to Lalgudi Jayaraman, there is even a padam in aTHANA.
