are we too relaxed with shruthi????

[msakella]

Dear brother-member, martin, Well. I too agree that the conventional Tambura has been a very great Shruti-accompaniment until the modern Electronic-automatic-tambura came into vogue in the same way in which Atom-bomb was the foremost until the better one than that was produced. In the process of the evolution, now, production of Atom-bomb has become a cottage-industry. In the same way I cannot tell anything against the insensitive people who become satisfied with only two different colours in a painting or only two different dishes of their meal or only two different notes, Shadja and Panchama in their music when a picture is readily available with multiple colours or a delicious-meal with a good number of dishes of different tastes is available or a heart touching music, may be traditional or not, with all the embellishing accompaniments, is readily available. To maintain the same old thing like our poor ancestors if you don’t want to use either the gas-stove or the micro-wave-stove, the motor-cycle or train, the airplane or helicopter and if you want to call the followers of the process of evolution as ‘profanators’ well and good I can’t help.

But, then, tell me, with what name should I call the great musicians who sing the raga Shuddha-dhanyasi (Udayaravichandrika) of Karnataka-music with all the traditional oscillations of Sadharana-gandhara and Kaishiki-nishada keeping our great-conventional-tambura, which successfully and predominantly produces the dis-cordant note and upper-partial Antara-gandhara, along with them but sing a composition without any oscillation of either of Sadharana-gandhara or Kashiki-nishada to make their rendition more attractive to the audience. Also, tell me how can you justify having this conventional-tambura, which predominantly produces the dis-cordant note, Antara-gandhara, while singing ragas having Sadharana-gandhara. Many of our musicians cannot sing Shriranjani ( a Panchama-varja-raga) even without Panchama in our great-tambura. amsharma.

[srikant1987]

Sharmaji,

I downloaded shruti wave files from karnatik.com. I think it comes from the tambura, because I could hear the antaragAndhAram in it. (When I play antaragAndhAram, it resonates with the wave file.) And guess what? I played tODi together with the wave file, and it sounded so much better than without the tambura.

I think the sound has a property of adjusting to the notes you play.

Sound-wise, I have no complains with the tambura, and I haven't observed sound from an electronic box too carefully (unless the karnatik.com wavefile was one ). Of course, portability, and need for a free limb to strum it with are big problems with the tambura.

---
I tried the routine oscillated gAndhAram AND the flat gAndhAram.

[msakella]

Dear brother-member, srikant1987, More than any kind of description a demonstration of this instrument only answers all the related questions. amsharma.

[martin]

Dear akella, you have a funny way of choosing examples of 'progress' coming up with bombs as you do. If this is to illustrate 'progress' I would rather remain blissfully ignorant.
As of having 'only two svara's' , Sa & Pa, between them they procreate a fertile and dynamic richness in harmonic resonance that allows for plenty variation in the hands of an accomplished tuner, even to suppress the clear nr. 10 harmonic, antara ghandar and bring out the pancham nr. 12, which incidentally has already been mentioned in a previous post.
Do you think it strange then that some of what others call progress I see as a profanation or desacralizing? Changing from real live sound to something technologically generated is not my idea of an improvement in musical practice.

You informed us that you are fed up with tambura but never told us why or howcome.

[Nick H]

Martin, msakella has decades of experience as a performing musician and as a teacher of music to his name. I cannot give you a link, but I think he has posted quite a lot here about his researches into the tambura, the drone, and the sruti box, which prompted him to go back to the drawing board and design his own electronic tambura.

I am not against electronics on their own account. On the contrary, I am a bit of a gadget man, given the finance to buy toys!

There are instances where I find it inappropriate though. I am yet to enjoy carnatic music played on a keyboard (although that includes non-electrical harmonium) for instance. One very sure way to kill, stone dead, almost any kind of music is to add a looping, synthetic rhythm track to it. I have seen small rock/folk bands play who would have sounded so much better with no percussion than with the drum machine.

Unfortunately, I doubt that I'll have the chance to assess my response to tambura over box. The box is ubiquitous now; the tambura, far from being amplified to be heard with the other instruments, seems little more than decoration on stage. As I am not a musician, I will not know the difference for the singer, either.

[arunk]

thanks martin. I think you somewhat misunderstood me. I myself dont think using western keys/notation for Indian ragas (including melas - i.e "scales") is good practice - nor is it really that prevalent to begin with! It is mainly used for illustrative purposes for some people who may be exposed to western music, and Indian popular (film) music which has a lot of influence from western concepts.

Chromatism can be said to occur in a raga that uses more than 7 svaras, for instance mainly shuddh ni and occasionally komal ni in a particular phrase.

This is why I laid out the difference in the variety of "scales" between carnatic and hindustani. In carnatic, you can have ragas with "only" 7 swaras and which involve both hindustani ris, ga's, dhas and nis. In the first case, the "higher ri" becomes ga (G1) etc. These are called vivadi melas - and this concept does not exist in hindustani.

I am in agreement that using western keys for carnatic is not appropriate. Also representing them as diatonic where applicable (this I think should cover all non-vivadi melas) is more appropriate too - but unless I am mistaken Chromatism occurs in Carnatic, even with ragas with just 7 swaras (and sometimes less too as in janya ragas of vivadi melas).

Arun

[martin]

Martin, msakella has decades of experience as a performing musician and as a teacher of music to his name. I cannot give you a link, but I think he has posted quite a lot here about his researches into the tambura, the drone, and the sruti box, which prompted him to go back to the drawing board and design his own electronic tambura.

Thank you for pointing this out to me. I have no disrespect at all for msakella at all but do not agree with his outlook on 'progress' and being among other things a tambura artist I will always try to defend the proper use of the instrument in ICM when it is pushed into the background for any reason. And personally I can not enjoy concerts that use synthesized tanpuras, as it lacks the qualities that I seek and cherish. Since the food-analogy has been brought up by akellasab himself, I hope he will complain if he's served synthetic food, that might at some point be pushed on us also under the name of 'progress'.

[ganesh_mourthy]

Dear Martin,

forget the synethetic food. Sound is a concrete term, we have science to prove it. But is not taste a very abstract term? You cannot define it. You have a prejudice against the electronic shruti or tambura box I think. But I would say that if an electronic synthetic box can elevate the musician's performance and perfection during playing a song , we should embrace it whole heartedly. Remember , tampura is to aid in perfect rendition or playing a music and we dont render for the sake of Tampura.

By the by if you prefer natural sound of tampura and not the synthetic sound, I feel that the sound you get out of the speaker is definitely not pristine original. Logically you should shun microphones , speakers and other enhancers too.

[Nick H]

But I would say that if an electronic synthetic box can elevate the musician's performance and perfection during playing a song , we should embrace it whole heartedly.

I doubt very much that it can, or ever does, in fact.

It is a tool, a set of reference tones just like a pitch pipe. I am quite willing to believe Martin's point of view that a natural, human-plucked, string instrument is much more than that.

I specifically do not refer to msakella's box, as most of us have no experience.

The human accompanists on stage may do the things that you say, but I am yet to see an artist hold up the electric box at the end of a program, and say, "I could have sung without this, but it wouldn't have been as good"!

By the by if you prefer natural sound of tampura and not the synthetic sound, I feel that the sound you get out of the speaker is definitely not pristine original. Logically you should shun microphones , speakers and other enhancers too.

I don't know about Martin, of course, but speaking for myself, I do.

If they ever do give me the keys to the planet, and I do take over the world --- there's going to be a few sound systems vapourised (and their operators with them if I'm in a bad mood).

I have seen students singing into a microphone, in a classroom, let alone a hall; youngsters whose voice can split apart a school building, but which, for reasons known only to their teachers, becomes a whisper when they sing!

Yes, please! Get rid of the microphones!

[ganesh_mourthy]

Dear Nick,

I am not mentioning the conventional shruti box at all. Since I feel that we need not have Pa sound for misra Pa raaga the shruti box does not serve any purposes since it is also sa pa sa tuned. Actually msakellaji is not at all against the sound or tonal quality of original tampura. But he is against the permanent Sa-Pa -Sa concept, I could understand. If any one of you are SINCERELY interested to listen to his signature shruti box he MIGHT demonstrate it to you. takers could ask sharmaji.

Besides, we should not be parochial and stick to one system and call it tradition. the tampura evolved too.There shoudl be changes and progress. Goddess Saraswati did not come down to this earth , taught us mortals music and we noted it and follow it till date unaltered. The music that we have here has greatly evolved and every time someone initiates a process is labelled a rebel however good it may be.

[Nick H]

OK, Looks like I might have put my foot in it again!

Not the first time, and of course apologies if I misunderstood. If what you are saying is that there may be something of electronic works that can give greater stimulus to the artist than our currently available box, then yes, I am sure that may be possible. I do not write a thing off just because it is plugged in. So... sorry for that.

I'd still rather see the amplification done away with, though, (or done properly, of course: I live in hope!) as I've written on many a thread, and probably will again, but that is a by-the-way.

I have seen msakella demonstrate his box, although as a non-musician, the fine points are lost on me: I am completely unqualified to comment. It was a slightly unfortunate affair too (he makes occasional veiled references) in which he was not given the time and response due to him. However, I got to meet him, albeit briefly, which was my priority of the day.

So far as the current-day shruti boxes are concerned... I have not noticed it on concerts, but there s something, that if it is tuned on in the room, starts to irritate after a while. Unfortunately I do not a volunteer tambura player to test

[martin]

Dear forum members who participate in this thread,
There is an enormous amount of sound-pollution in this modern time. 'Music' has become a cheap consumers' article in some circles and technological progress will have more influence over time than we can now foresee.
In my small experience over a not so long period, I have noticed some changes that seem to hold some dismal forbodings with respect to the title of this thread. This includes bad tuning, intonation, badly imbalanced and TOO LOUD amplification, all of wich just give me the blues, man.

Obviously, as a tambura artist, I would seem to have any possible prejudice against surrogate electronics. Only, I think 'prejudice' does not apply here. I come to certain general conclusions by my own experiences, having heard many types of existing brands and other software that exists to replace the tanpura. The simple fact is that nothing can make me forget my tanpura, which is my reference. All my work as an instrument repairer, jivari-maker, tuner and also a singer is directed to one aim: to create surbhava. So do not be surprised to find me duefully critical of the sound quality - from a distance it sort of looks the same but as you come nearer its an obvious fake. That so many people accept this stepdown in sound quality baffles me totally, but I can not go against my own nature wich seeks surbhava and will not be satisfied with less.
So my first, well founded complaint is related to the sound: crude and repetetive: an obvious fake. There's no life (jiva!) in it, it's empty. Most types also fail in pitch-definition - sa is a bit blurred, more of a blot than an exact spot.
My second arguement is far more important as I see many ways in which the electronic pandemic is bad for music in the long run.
I have had a chance to voice my personal opinion but don't want to fall in to repetetive talk so I will withdraw,
with good wishes to all.
martin

[msakella]

Dear brother-member, martin, No doubt, I agree with all your details in respect of the conventional Tambura. I cannot misunderstand you for being adamantly against the use of automatic-EST (Electronic Substitute Tambura) as you have always been used to maintain and play your Tambura in a very perfect order and as 99% of the ESTs available in the market are in one way or other defective and also as you have never been exposed by anybody to a true automatic-EST. I have myself designed my automatic-electronic-tambura-cum-bagpiper to suit the needs of sensitive musicians. Even though both advantages and dis-advantages of their own nature are prevailing in both of them ‘bearable-level’ of them counts much to choose to the users. However, I shall try to discuss here about both the advantages and disadvantages of these two.
1.While the CT (Conventional Tambura) is very fragile to carry along in journeys the EST is very convenient to carry with.
2.While the CT needs an expert tuner and player the EST doesn’t need a player at all.
3.While we should never forget to carry the ‘Jeevaali’ also along with the CT there is no scope of forgetting it in respect of EST as it is in built.
4.While there is every scope of being mis-handled by a defective player of the CT there is no such scope of EST as it is an automatic instrument.
5.While there is some scope of electrical fluctuations of automatic-EST due to the erratic power supply there are some other kinds of fluctuations in the tuning of strings due to the un-even plucking of the un-even guage-levels of the strings, defective bridge and defective ‘jeevaali’ etc. Even in these fluctuations while the automatic-EST fluctuates evenly the CT fluctuates un-evenly.
6.While an automatic-EST could be tuned within minutes of time the CT, generally, needs much time to tune it.
7.Very very importantly, in respect of the notes produced, while, except reducing Panchama to Shuddha-madhyama, no other modification is possible in CT my automatic-EST is provided with 3 Tamburas of 3 octaves which can be operated either independently or collectively with either Panchama or Shuddha-madhyama or devoid of both and having Shadja of upper octave instead along with the bagpiper section consisting of Shadjas of 4 octaves, Sadharana-gandhara or Antara-gandhara of 2 octaves, Panchama or Shuddha-madhyama of 2 octaves, Shuddha-dhaivata or Chatusshruti-dhaivata of 2 octaves. Accordingly the singer can have a vast choice of different notes pertaining to different Ragas which is absolutely impossible to get in the CT.
8.While the EST has the facility of changing it to any Shruti within a few seconds of time the CT can never have such facility.
9. In course of having some major facilities we may have to sacrifice some minor facilities and in the same manner in respect of relying upon a Shruti-instrument my instrument is more reliable than any other available automatic-Electronic-tambura. Even though the musicians who sing in Shruti will not hesitate to rely upon my instrument the musicians who sing with Shruti may hesitate to rely upon my instrument as their beans will be spilled out. Of course, I am ready to demonstrate this instrument at any time if needed.

While going through the recent posts of our forum, even though I became aware of the exit of our brother-member, martin, I felt it as my duty to properly enlighten our society in this respect and posted this. amsharma.

[thenpaanan]

Having become fed up with the conventional Tambura, nearly 20 years back, I, with my limited knowledge of elctronics, have myself designed my Electronic-automatic-tambura to serve this purpose only with Tamburas of 3 octaves, Mandra, Madhya and Tara-sthayis which can be operated independently or collectively either with Panchama or with Shuddha-madhyama or devoid of both in Tambura-section and along with 2-shadjas, 2-panchamas or 2-shuddha-madhyamas, 2-antara-gandharas or 2-sadharana-gandharas, 2-shuddha-dhaivatas or 2-chatushruti-dhaivatas in bag-piper section. amsharma..

Dear Sharmagaru

In my limited understanding of note values, strong resonance notes such as shuddha madhyama or even antaragandhara do not seem to vary much from raga to raga. However weak resonance notes such as the nominal sadharanagandhara seem to vary a lot from raga to raga (in this particular instance, say, from todi to anandabhairavi to abhogi) primarily due to the fact that in many ragas the note is visualized more as an oscillation (gamaka) than a fixed note (the rishabha of madhyamavati is another such example but since your tambura does not have a chatushruti rishabha it is not entirely relevant here). In such cases do you find that it helps or hurts to have a string tuned to a sadharanagandhara position when presenting a raga like todi?

Thanks
Then Paanan

PS. What is meant by "bag-piper section"?

[blackadder]

I have been following this thread very eagerly. I found this statement by nick H very interesting:

There are instances where I find it inappropriate though. I am yet to enjoy carnatic music played on a keyboard (although that includes non-electrical harmonium) for instance. One very sure way to kill, stone dead, almost any kind of music is to add a looping, synthetic rhythm track to it. I have seen small rock/folk bands play who would have sounded so much better with no percussion than with the drum machine.

nick H:

From what I see of those who are playing Carnatic music on the keyboard, there is no use of the rhythm track. Given that, how do you like listening to Carnatic music on the keyboard?

May I also ask Shri. Akella his opinion?

[ganesh_mourthy]

Sharmaji garu , what is bagpiper section. I know only a bagpiper ad for which Jackie shroff and Shatrughan Sinha . sorry. need enlightening here .

[Nick H]

Blackadder, my statement should have been two separate paragraphs: carnatic music on keyboard and electronic rhythm tracks being connected only by technology: I did not intend to suggest that they are connected by performance. God(s) forbid.

It is probably only a matter of time. My wife visited an ashram for a meditation program a few weeks ago, and returned with some CDs, including several of chanting. One of them was accompanied --- by an electronic rhythm track. Whilst there may have been some psychological trick behind the intention (other than simply amusing foreigners) I'm sure that most of my fellow rasikas, would share my opinion that it was horrible.

[msakella]

Dear brother-member, blackadder, I have never listened to Karnataka music on a key-board and thus unable to give my opinion in the respect. amsharma.

[msakella]

Dear brother-member, ganesh_mourthy, I have used this word in respect of our Shruti-box, the drone instrument producing the notes like harmonium reeds. amsharma.

[blackadder]

Thanks for the clarification, nick H. I misunderstood your post. I can understand how it must have felt to listen to the chants with the electronic rhythm track. Spooky! (shudder, shudder)

Shri. Akella: Thanks for your response. Since you have devised the Electronic tampura, you are probably the most qualified among all of us to give us some insight into the keyboard and its use in Carnatic music. If you find some time, can you please listen to some samples from Music India online or somewhere and post your opinion?

[msakella]

Dear brother-member, blackadder, Having seen your post, curiously for the first time, I have found out a website in which a piece of our Raga, Karnaranjani was played and listened to it. It was like an old Indian lady from a remote village trying to speak some words of English with great difficulty. More than that I could not relish it, of course. Hindusthani music permits to play pure notes and also they have Vaadaki-style, instrumental-music. But Karnataka music has only Gayaki-style, singing-music even though some people try to make a show of instrumental-music choosing some compositions, which help them in that respect. But we can relish very little of it. amsharma.

[Nick H]

Whilst I know that some people feel very much otherwise (didn't All India Radio ban harmonium?) I don't find it objectionable as accompaniment in Hindustani recitals.

[blackadder]

Shri. Akella:

I am honoured that you took the trouble to troll through websites to find a keyboard rendition of Carnatic music. Firstly, I thank you for that. If you can please post the link to the website here, I will also give it a listen so that I am not making any comments in the blind. At the risk of sounding presumptuous, I understand from your post that the music that you heard lacked gamakas. Please let me know if I have misunderstood you - I seem to have a knack for that.

nick, my memory tells me that the ban on the harmonium was because of a personal prejudice that Nehru had against the instrument. The ban was subsequently lifted, however, and I recall ?Mohan providing a link to Palladam's concert on the AIR in another thread on this forum.

[ganesh_mourthy]

I recently listened someone playing saveri Varnam in Keyboard.In a way it was good that he announced that the raaga would be in Saveri or I would have mistaken it for some Western folk music.But Still, I was not sure if he had changed his mind after announcing. Or may be I did not grasp it properly ???? It sure did have shades of Saveri once in a while.

[Nick H]

Gamaka and electronics are not necessarily incompatible. Many keyboards have a control wheel which allows bending the pitch.

I have been put off by admittedly limited experience.

We seem to have come a long way from the title subject of the thread!

[msakella]

Dear brother-member, nick H, While the oscillation of the notes in Hindusthani music is always made between the upper note and the exact note only in Karnataka music, in addition to the oscillation in Hindusthani music, three notes have to be oscillated between the upper note and the immediate lower note of the original note i.e., while, in Hindusthani music, the Sadharana-gandhara is oscillated between the upper Shuddha-madhyama and Sadharana-gandhara only, the Shuddha-madhyama is oscillated between Panchama and Shuddha-madhyama only and the Kaishiki-nishada is oscillated between the upper Shadja and Kashiki-nishada only, in Karnataka music, in addition to the above kind of oscillation, the Sadharana-gandhara should also be oscillated between the upper Shuddha-madhyama and the Chatusshruti-rishabha, the immediate lower note of Sadharana-gandhara, the Shuddha-madhyama should also be oscillated between the upper Panchama and Antara-gandhara, the immediate lower note of Shuddha-madhyama and the Kaishiki-nishada should also be oscillated between the upper Shadja and the Chatusshruti-dhaivata, the immediate lower note of Kashiki-nishada. This kind of Gamaka becomes difficult to follow to all others who are not acquainted with and it sounds as off-note to others.
As you wrote in your recent post we all have come a long way from the title subject of the thread. Possibly let us stop here. amsharma.

[msakella]

Dear brother-member, blackadder, Something I wrote and somewhere I clicked in Google and got that keyboard music. After hearing from you I have again gone and searched for that but I couldn’t find it. I very well remember that I had listened to the notes of Karnaranjani and as you wrote the Gamakas of it are not sounding properly. That’s all I can tell you. Sorry for being unable to give that link. amsharma.

[blackadder]

Thanks for trying, Shri. Akella.

nick is right. We shall stick to shruthi shuddham in this thread.

[vk]

http://dwani.blogspot.com/2006/08/keybo ... music.html. I think Shri Akella must have referred to the above link for the keyboard Karnaranjani.

[msakella]

Dear brother-member, vk, Yes. You are right. That was this piece I have listened to. Thanks a lot for giving these details.

Now, brother-member, blackadder can go through this link to listen to the keyboard audio clipping of Karnaranjani. amsharma.

[ganesh_mourthy]

Every time I open this forum to see a new thread I am disappointed. This is the only active thread going on and on like hanuman's tail. Thanks Akella ji, Nick ji, Martin ji for keeping this interesting. Hope this ends here since we have come far away from the subject. As the founder member of this thread I call participants for the closing ceremony. Last contribution was from Akella ji , just to let him know that the long thread ends here.

[blackadder]

Thanks, vk and Shri. Akella, for the link. I will listen to it.

ganesh:

Further posts regarding this will be on another thread.