Artisites and Decorum

[vgvindan]

Cool,

I tend to agree that anarchism is formless and utopian....

Anarchism, in my view, is an expression of the idea that the burden of proof is always on those who argue that authority and domination are necessary. They have to demonstrate, with powerful argument, that that conclusion is correct. If they cannot, then the institutions they defend should be considered illegitimate. How one should react to illegitimate authority depends on circumstances and conditions: there are no formulas.

Chomsky
http://www.zmag.org/chomsky/interviews/ ... chism.html

By this definition - Buddha too is an anarchist.
So I wish best of luck for Rasika-Buddha too.

[Nick H]

nick,
I rather feel uneasy about your use of the word 'custom'. Yourself being an artist, do you really feel so or is it an inadvertence?

In this post? ---

But the rasika is, of course, the customer. He can take his custom elsewhere.

In the end, an artist who wishes to sing to more than his furniture will stand or fall by whether or not they fill seats. If the artist wishes to fill his stomach by his art, then he should recognise that he is entering a market, surely?

There is a market in sacking; there is a market in the finest silk. It is no denigration of the art to say that it is a market.

And whether or not I agreed on any particular issue, I would absolutely acknowledge your right to withdraw or give you custom, your patronage, according to your own reasons.

I certainly don't call myself an artist, but at the time when I was considering that might happen, I certainly considered the market.

[vgvindan]

nick,
I am moved by your reasoning.

They say there are three types of people - those who don't know but think they know - those who know but think that they don't know - those who know and know that they know.

You seem to fall in last category.
Best of luck - er - such people don't even believe in luck!

[coolkarni]

VGV You forgot to mention the fourth possibility
those who dont know and are pretty sure that one cannot know.

In relation to Gaugin,Van Gogh and Rimbaud,I have a distinct inferiority complex because they have managed to destroy themselves in search of....
I am more and more convinced that ,in order to to achieve authenticity , something has to snap.....

But I have protected myself against snapping....I am bast*** enough to leave something of myself intact.
Jean Paul sartre,

[vgvindan]

those who dont know and are pretty sure that one cannot know

That, IMHO, is the definition of brahma jnAni.
That comes close what Socrates said "I know that I don't know"

[vgvindan]

In the end, an artist who wishes to sing to more than his furniture will stand or fall by whether or not they fill seats. If the artist wishes to fill his stomach by his art, then he should recognise that he is entering a market, surely?

There is a market in sacking; there is a market in the finest silk. It is no denigration of the art to say that it is a market.

And whether or not I agreed on any particular issue, I would absolutely acknowledge your right to withdraw or give you custom, your patronage, according to your own reasons.

I think that sums up the discussions in this thread.
Sometimes truth is so simple that we fail to notice it and search for something very deep and get nowhere.

[sureshvv]

Question: What makes carnatic musicians different from an other type of entertainer,
*snip*

Now, at the risk of incurring the wrath of the senior members of this thread and of taking the thread off-topic I shall address the other issue you brought up in response to my question:

tilt... You spent a couple of paragraphs slaying every "sacred cow" you could and I still can't fathom if you agree or disagree with my original observation. Note that there was no mention of "morality" anywhere in my comment - so that windmill is entirely your making.

PS: Pretty sure that your mythology teacher was not your grandmother, who may have conveyed the spirit of the stories too - so you don't get mixed up with your favorite Desperate Housewives episode!

[arasi]

For a change, go to the Cleveland ArAdhanA thread and find instances of decorum and fine behavior on the part of some of the performers!

[Nick H]

By the way, I am not saying of course, that it is not possible to just sing to one's furniture, one's gods, one's family; but one must find another way of eating (Perhaps selling one's beautiful Mylapore house for development? ) or be an ascetic.

It is a quirk of life that the more an artist appears to sing just for their own pleasure, the more pleasure they give us and the more success they will have!

As to knowing, well... I don't know!

[gobilalitha]

Arasi has very diplomatically suggested curtains down on this subject,'for a change, go to cleveland........ iinstead of bluntly saying we have had enough, let us say goodbye to this subject ..after reading so many arguments for and against alcoholism, thoughwritten in excellent language, my head reels without even sniffing the stuff,leave alone consuming .bye for the subject. gobilalitha

[Nick H]

Arasi ... ... ....after reading so many arguments for and against alcoholism, thoughwritten in excellent language, my head reels without even sniffing the stuff,leave alone consuming .bye for the subject. gobilalitha

Sorry, but I have to just hark back and answer this one.

As far as I remember, alcoholism has been barely mentioned in this thread. This state of physical addiction to alcohol is a dreadful medical condition, and of course, a destroyer of careers, families and lives.

You may say to me that a non-drinker simply never became an alcoholic, and I'd have to agree that that is a fact. Even moderate consumption of alcohol entails some risk to the health. But the vast majority of the world's alcohol drinkers are not alcoholics, and stand only a small risk of becoming so.

You can also say that even the non-addicted drinker can cause great damage to themselves, their family, other road users if they drive, and so on. This is also true; my personal opinion is that alcohol is a drug the human race would be better off without.

The risks of addiction to tobacco are far, far higher, with probably the majority of smokers doing so because of addiction. Addiction is different to habit; addiction is a state of the body becoming physically reliant on a substance, hence the symptoms of withdrawal. It has been said that nicotine is more addictive than heroin. Not only are the dangers of damage to one's own body from smoking, as great or worse, than drinking alcohol, they are also more damaging to those around.

There are more ways of consuming tobacco than smoking it of course. The decorous musician on stage consuming his paan, or especially the Ghutka (can't spell it) could be called a drug addict, whereas the ones consuming a bottle of wine in a foreign hotel are probably not.

Drugs of various kinds continue to destroy the lives of people, including musicians of all cultures, but it is necessary to take an informed, rather than an emotive view of these things, and to see what is harmful, and what is not. Or at least, what is more, and what is less harmful, rather than what has simply become culturally acceptable or unacceptable.

The true ascetic may claim that even tea and coffee should not be consumed, let alone drugs of a more mind-altering or pleasure-inducing nature --- but then what of the Sadhus of parts of Northern India, who famed for their cannabis intake, and among whom at least a few must be genuine holy men.

Simply, none of us have the answer to these questions.

Humanity is imperfect; very imperfect.

(now I go back to read the subsequent posts)

[rshankar]

after reading so many arguments for and against alcoholism, thoughwritten in excellent language, my head reels without even sniffing the stuff,leave alone consuming .bye for the subject. gobilalitha

GBL,

You sound like Sahir Ludhianvi in the 1957 film tumsA nahIn dekhA - 'piyE bin Aj hamE chaDhA hai nashA' - And yes, O. P Nayyar was the music director, and the peerless Rafi sa'ab was the singer.

Ravi

[rshankar]

Even moderate consumption of alcohol entails some risk to the health.

Well said, Nick! I have only one issue with the statement you wrote (quoted above).

http://www2.potsdam.edu/hansondj/AlcoholAndHealth.html

Most studies do show a J shaped relationship between alcohol consumption and say, cardiovascular risk for example...The definition of moderate drinking is upto 2 glasses of wine a day for men, and upto 1 glass for women - (CAVEAT: drinking 14 glasses on one day a week makes one a binge drinker and not a consumer of moderate amounts of alcohol!) - what has not been described is the size of the wine glass, because they can range from 8 oz (white wine glasses) to 14 oz (red wine glasses) in volume.

[tilt]

Question: What makes carnatic musicians different from an other type of entertainer,
*snip*

Now, at the risk of incurring the wrath of the senior members of this thread and of taking the thread off-topic I shall address the other issue you brought up in response to my question:

tilt... You spent a couple of paragraphs slaying every "sacred cow" you could and I still can't fathom if you agree or disagree with my original observation. Note that there was no mention of "morality" anywhere in my comment - so that windmill is entirely your making.

PS: Pretty sure that your mythology teacher was not your grandmother, who may have conveyed the spirit of the stories too - so you don't get mixed up with your favorite Desperate Housewives episode!

Sorry Suresh, I did not realise that I had not answered your question.

Your observation that carnatic musicians are the custodians and guardians of traditional Indian culture was what brought me out at full tilt My point (which I so eloquently and obviously failed to make) was this: what they were guarding is what current society considers "traditional Indian culture" and that maybe what we consider traditional Indian culture is not really so; which is why I attacked said sacred cows.

By the way, I do not watch Desperate Housewives, so I am afraid the point is lost on me

Plus, my grandmother was not my mythology teacher , my mother used to read me stories when I was a child and also I used to read Amar Chitra Katha comics. Yes, I know I should do more research before shooting off my mouth

Yes, I understand that my view may be extremely skewed. I cannot help it, I tend to look at things from various angles, including non-conventional angles It is not my intention to offend, it is my intention to invite open discussion without prejudice.

By the way, nice catch on the "windmill" - at last I found someone who understands the significance behind my nickname

Cheers

*Edited to correct typos*

[money]

and needs to take the help of other things in life to drown their sorrow.

I suppose you don't mind if they did drugs either, so long as it's in the privacy of their home/hotel room.

The point being made is to best leave personal lives alone.
Nobody even in jest can support a disease as serious as what you mentioned.I think the debate was not about addiction of any kind.An addiction will destroy the family, the career and the prosperity and peace of all the near and dear.It is a one way ticket to hell..Forget about musicians, who are so dear to us, our prayers should be that no one should even by the most remote mischance get entangled with it.
I would like to leave it at that.
After the reading the poetic flow of Cool,the most sincere and scholarly responses of VGV,the felicity of Arasi and Nick, I have to fall silent.
It was a very remarkable discussion sustained over some time and has been very well brought to an end by Nick and VGV.So be it.

[ganesh_mourthy]

It was a very remarkable discussion sustained over some time and has been very well brought to an end by Nick and VGV.So be it.

I think the curtain is not down yet.

[Nick H]

My end is down, and no encores, as I have to catch a train

[arasi]

Nick,
One of the mods was ready to bring down the curtains posts ago. Let him do the honors while you take that journey!

[vasanthakokilam]

Let me make an obvious point just to clarify, threads settle into a state of suspended animation on their own accord and not due to any mod action and they can come back to life at any time if a rasika chooses to post something and bump it to the top. The mods closing the topic is a heavy handed action which is reserved only for out of control, abusive or unsavory threads etc.

[arasi]

Sorry, VK. I didn't mean it in 'the heavy handed' sense. I thought when (member first) Ravi suggested curtains, it seemed just right because we had pretty much thrashed the subject by then (of course, we could go one more Avartanam, 'trashing' too, as it sometimes happens!). It can be tiring to see a baseball game go into endless innings when you know there is chance for another game soon after.
Mere members can't call it a day when the mods themselves practice decorum

[ganesh_mourthy]

Mere members can't call it a day when the mods themselves practice decorum

Arasi , does it connote something?

[vidya]

Question: What makes carnatic musicians different from an other type of entertainer,

Your observation that carnatic musicians are the custodians and guardians of traditional Indian culture was what brought me out at full tilt My point (which I so eloquently and obviously failed to make) was this: what they were guarding is what current society considers "traditional Indian culture" and that maybe what we consider traditional Indian culture is not really so;

Tilt,
A very well said truism and its refreshing to see such views here. As far as relative morality goes, I've never understood the logic of how a puff of snuff from a kudumied musician is somehow more acceptable than a puff from a cigarette , or how fanship of Rajnikanth somehow becomes inferior to fanship and idolatory of Carnatic musician. But then pointing out such inconsistencies seems to make people deeply defensive. One gets the same reaction when questioned about the source and textual material in the Puranas and the itihasas or biblical ones which are quite different from the clinically doctored versions. Since someone asked for a 'grandmother's tale on mythology and tradition here is a favorite of mine on morality, perception and how expectations of it work in society. This one is attributed to the famous Vaidyanatha Dikshita of VaidhIshvaran Koil, a Dharma Shastra exponent and author of the Vaidyanatha DikshitIyam - an interpretation of the Dharma Sutras who often times had the habit of taking a bath late in the afternoon after he finished up work in the fields. A certain visitor to his house looked around for him and saw with disgust the uncouth , unbathed person without as much as a smear of ash on his forehead on the lands.He was just about to ask him where he could find the great man of the house. At that moment he heard the voice of Dikshita's mother calling out from the house entreating him to take a bath so he could eat on time.

[vasanthakokilam]

arasi, understood. Didn't take it any other way.

[arasi]

Nor did I think you did

[arasi]

ganesh_mourthy,
Hope you are feeling better now.
I was merely suggesting that a season is not dependent on a single extra innings game. There are other games which follow...

[coolkarni]

Spirit of Liberty

What is the spirit of Liberty? I cannot define it ;I can only tell you my faith.

The spirit of liberty is the spirit which is not too sure it is right. It is the spirit which seeks to understand the minds of other men and women. It is the spirit which weighs their interests alongside its own without bias.

The spirit of liberty remembers that not even a sparrow falls to earth unheeded. It is the spirit of Him who, nearly two thousand years ago , taught mankind a lesson it has never really learned, but has never quite forgotten: That there may be a kingdom where the least shall be heard and considered side by side with the greatest.
Author Unknown ( to me)

[vgvindan]

coolji,
I thought the topic has been logically closed. May I know what prompted you to post your above comments?

[sureshvv]

Question: What makes carnatic musicians different from an other type of entertainer,
*snip*

My point *snip* was this: what they were guarding is what current society considers "traditional Indian culture" and that maybe what we consider traditional Indian culture is not really so;

OK. Seems like we both agree that they are guarding something -- you don't think it is "traditional" (I doubt if you would argue about "Indian" or "culture").

Good enough for me. My feeling is that we would also agree what it is that they are guarding. You just don't want the traditional label applied to it because in your book our traditions are homosexual gods and drunk cannibalizing rishis.

[coolkarni]

VGV
There are two elements to my response.
1.On the method of closing a debate -taking inspiration from some famous words on retirement.

[quote]The riders in a race do not stop short when they reach the goal. There is a little finishing canter before they come to a standstill. There is time to hear the kind voice of friends and to say to one’s self :The work is doneâ€