Prof Sri Trs Lec-dem 'status Of Telugu As A Language Employe

Miscellaneous topics on Carnatic music
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vgvindan
Posts: 1430
Joined: 13 Aug 2006, 10:51

Post by vgvindan »

Supreme Love is Love for the Sake of love Alone

Thus we come to what is called supreme Bhakti, supreme devotion, in which forms and symbols fall off. One who has reached that cannot belong to any sect, for all sects are in him. To what shall he belong? For all churches and temples are in him. Where is the church big enough for him? Such a man cannot bind himself down to certain limited forms. Where is the limit for unlimited love, with which he has become one? In all religions which take up this ideal of love, we find the struggle to express it. Although we understand what this love means and see that everything in this world of affections and attractions is a manifestation of that Infinite Love, the expression of which has been attempted by sages and saints of different nations, yet we find them using all the powers of language, transfiguring even the most carnal expression into the divine.

Thus sang the royal Hebrew sage, thus sang they of India. "O beloved, one kiss of Thy lips! Kissed by Thee, one’s thirst for Thee increaseth for ever! All sorrows cease, one forgets the past, present, and future, and only thinks of Thee alone." That is the madness of the lover, when all desires have vanished. "Who cares for salvation? Who cares to be saved? Who cares to be perfect even? Who cares for freedom?" says the lover. "I do not want wealth, nor even health; I do not want beauty, I do not want intellect: let me be born again and again, amid all the evils that are in the world; I will not complain, but let me love Thee, and that for love’s sake."

That is the madness of love which finds expression in these songs. The highest, most expressive, strongest, and most attractive human love is that between man and woman, and, therefore, that language was used in expressing the deepest devotion. The madness of this human love was the faintest echo of the mad love of the saints. The true lovers of God want to become mad, inebriated with the love of God, to become "God-intoxicated men." They want to drink of the cup of love which has been prepared by the saints and sages of every religion, who have poured their heart’s blood into it, and in which have been concentrated all the hopes of those who have loved God without seeking reward, who wanted love for itself only. The reward of love is love, and what a reward it is! It is the only thing that takes off all sorrows, the only cup, by the drinking of which this disease of the world vanishes. Man becomes divinely mad and forgets that he is man.
http://kaustubh88.tripod.com/5.html

now contrast this -
Bhakti as a defense against foreign cultures"
angarEz chalE gayE lEkin angarEzi chod gayE -

A typical colonial mentality. A thousand Vivekanandas cannot change it.

vgvindan
Posts: 1430
Joined: 13 Aug 2006, 10:51

Post by vgvindan »

We are as the flute, and the music in us is from thee;
we are as the mountain and the echo in us is from thee.

We are as pieces of chess engaged in victory and defeat:
our victory and defeat is from thee, O thou whose qualities are comely!

Who are we, O Thou soul of our souls,
that we should remain in being beside thee?

We and our existences are really non-existence;
thou art the absolute Being which manifests the perishable.

We all are lions, but lions on a banner:
because of the wind they are rushing onward from moment to moment.

Their onward rush is visible, and the wind is unseen:
may that which is unseen not fail from us!

Our wind whereby we are moved and our being are of thy gift;
our whole existence is from thy bringing into being.
http://www.armory.com/~thrace/sufi/poems.html

It is not Surdas who sang like this - Rumi - a Sufi saint - Oops, my mistake - the word 'saint' is abhorrent to the Secular.

coolkarni
Posts: 1729
Joined: 22 Nov 2007, 06:42

Post by coolkarni »

Mods
It may be worth considering the renaming of this thread too.
This is certainly an interesting subject, worth having a Title on its own merit.

At this stage , I am tempted to conclude that the question that remains to be
answered is :
Will Carnatic Music continue to have significance for us ,
If divorced from "Bhakthi ".

The true answer may not lie at the deepest end of the pool , in the way this
question is framed .But the intensity of the question may be helpful in
probing further.And it is here that SR has made a start and that effort is
worth emulating.
My own opinion on this matter is that while the Bhakthi element is Essential
or even Desirable , It is NOT a Vital element.
CM can and should sustain itself with a larger base of impulses for
outpourings.

A record of Vishnu Digambar Paluskar's works shows that he hit upon the ideaof Bhakthi riding piggy back on Music ,to get Music the Respectability it
deserved in his eyes-though he was blind !
He was primarily concerned with the fact that Classical Music was becoming
synonymous with a section that catered to the sensual needs of the society.
And so he hit upon the idea of making it use the Bhakthi Consciousness of
members of society to help it gain acceptablity across all the sections.
I have a large number of friends who reminisce that they caught on to CM
while doing the rounds -as tiny tots-around temples with the Moms/ Sisters
in the evenings when their dads were busy playing Poker.-in the villages-..

So as we can see , atleast in HM, it has been the other way around-
Bhakthi lifting Music up from the morass.

What we are ignoring here,though, is the use of the sensibilities of
the 1800s and 1900s and transplant it in our times.
The Musical Sensibilities sustain themselves more vigorously.
Across the centuries.
The Bhakthi sensibilities do not withstand scrutiny.
Across generations.
Just try accepting a title off a Jagathguru for a Pontiff today and you will see my point.
Some of the so called Perfect Marriages of my Dads generation
(including my Parents marriage) do not measure up to the demands of a
Perfect Marriage of this generation(Including my own marriage).
That is when seen in the context of emancipation of Women , for instance.

Or consider
the sensibilities of singing 'Makkalillada Siriyu, Koletha thengina thuriyu"
in this Track of Kanakadasa
I find it too disgusting to translate even.
http://rs345.rapidshare.com/files/88831 ... hought.mp3
Fittingly enough, I shudder to think of the possibilities of playing
the end of this track in a cricket Stadium where Andrew Symonds is playing
It goes like this.... Mutti bhajisada Naranu , Avane Vanara ..
Last edited by coolkarni on 03 Feb 2008, 18:52, edited 1 time in total.

hvaidaya
Posts: 7
Joined: 01 Feb 2007, 17:25

Post by hvaidaya »

I feel that by insisting and tagging bhakthi to Carnatic Music is alienating it from younger generation and non brahmins and people from other religions who are interested in good music, but feel all our songs are not meant for them. It has also created an impression among youngsters, that it is not for their age, because of bhakthi. They feel, they can give time for bhakthi after 50 or 60

arasi
Posts: 16873
Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30

Post by arasi »

Is it not possible for atheists to lead a righteous path? Is it possible for all those who profess bhakti to lead a righteous path? Unless there is some agreement on certain basic aspects of the concept bhakthi, I am afraid we are going to be pursuing this topic in vain.
Anything that elevates us from our level of human existence is worth it. In music too. It needn't be all bhakti oriented. There is room for other genres as well. Heroic poetry, patriotic songs and so on. A lullaby about a new born child other than Krishna still would sound special...

vgvindan
Posts: 1430
Joined: 13 Aug 2006, 10:51

Post by vgvindan »

hvaidya,
There is a Tamil movie 'iru kODugaL' by K Balachander. In order to shorten a line, one does not erase a part of it - but draws a longer line by its side.

Just imagine all the bhakti kritis have vanished overnight and they cannot be recouped for ever. Can an equally powerful media - without bhakti of course - be built in another 100 years? Do the Vaggeyakkaras have that wherewithal?

Bhakti is not tagged to CM - it is the other way around - CM is tagged to bhakti. That is not the fault of bhakti. CM musicians have found the Bhakti kRti concept a short cut to mastering rAga per-se - probably that is why there is less RTP.

Thyagaraja and Dikshitar used music as a tool to express their bhakti. Dikshitar went one step ahead - he also revitalised the rAga concept. That music by itself can deliver what bhakti does is a different matter - younger generations might not have heard the word 'nAdOpAsana', excepting as the name of some websites.

If the younger generation do not like bhakti - so be it. For that kindly do not debunk bhakti - that is what the tone and tenor of some of the posts here.

Sangeet Rasik
Posts: 591
Joined: 16 May 2006, 00:19

Post by Sangeet Rasik »

Dear participants, I have started a new thread for this discussion, also in the "General discussions" section. Please continue there. I will respond to your recent posts there.

SR

Mod Note: Thanks SR. Here is the link to the new thread: http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?id=4785

srinivasasarma
Posts: 89
Joined: 23 Oct 2006, 18:16

Post by srinivasasarma »

for the first time (!) i am going thru this thread. after reading few msgs., i could think (if i am wrong, my apologies) that
St. Thiagaraja's father was also a Rama bakhta
So whenever he was reading Ramayana, he might have sung Badrachalam Ramadasar songs which were in telugu and
dedicated to Sri Rama
Probably this might/could have made St Thiagaraja to compose in telugu.

cmlover
Posts: 11498
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36

Post by cmlover »

T's mother used to sing Ramadas and in fact she taught them to him!

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