Article - South Indian Performing Arts: Whence? Where Now? W

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 15 Jan 2007, 02:54

Just cant believe this!

Why? It's her prerogative - although personally I may not show off my wardrobe. (in my case, I would hide mine!

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 15 Jan 2007, 02:57

The saints and the saint-composers have of course reached the higher(est) plane.

And how do you know that? (Please don't take this as an argumentative question, it's a serious one, in the mode of a Socratic dialogue.)

clueless · Post by **clueless** » 15 Jan 2007, 07:37

In connection with what attracts people's attention at the Carnatic music concert, the following conversation was overheard at one:

Q: Is this Vasantha or Kalyani?
A: It doesn't matter who it is, pay attention to the song.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 15 Jan 2007, 07:46

clueless
you are full of clues..

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 15 Jan 2007, 09:31

And how do you know that?

By the Timelessness of their appeal, of Course.

One can be a brand for a generation.
Or Generations......

There is a famous story narrated by a Former Head of State.
During a visit to Washington , he was pleasnatly surprised to learn that Heads of states were given the honour of spending the night in Lincolns Room.
On retiring for the day, this gentleman found it too difficult to sleep on the huge Bed that was in the centre of the room.It was an exquisite and elaborate piece of furniture- but somehow he could not bring himself to sleep on the bed on which Lincoln had slept.
So he decides to pull up a small bed - and old one standing at one one side of the room, and goes to sleep.
And sleeps a fine ,dreamless sleep.
The next day morning , the President asks :
"Did you have a comfortable night "'
and he replies
" Yes it was a fine bed.Very comfortable , too.Feel very humble to realise that I slept on a bed on which Lincoln had slept, too."

"Oh ! " replied the President .

" That big Bed.We put it up only recently , for the comfort of our guests.The bed on which Lincoln actually slept , was on the sides.We thought it was too simple and uncomfortable for our guests and so we..."

1: http://rapidshare.com/files/11762900/PU ... S.MPG.html

watch this clip .For over 15 years , I have not been able to take my eyes of the face of Kishori Amonkar and her Disciple.There is so much going on there . that I am yet to absorb fully.

An experience that repeats itself everytime I hear the likes of Visalakshi Nityanand , too.

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 15 Jan 2007, 13:22

Regd Mridu's link - I feel it is some of these things that tend to distract the attention of rasikas from the brilliant musician that Sudha is. Not that they affect my appreciation of her music in the least...but she could avoid a lot of unkind opinions that she attracts...

I guess we could also look at it as a savvy brand manager managing the expectations of her constituency...However, it could lead to the unfortunate, and unfair, consequence of being written off by history as a shallow musician, sans substance

vsnatarajan · Post by **vsnatarajan** » 15 Jan 2007, 16:37

I wish to quote a personal incident.
when i was going to the temple in the earlier days, it just used to be in a care free dressing. After I got initiated into Japas and all, it was pointed out during one of the visits that you are visiting the"Rajarajeshwari", dress your best. Same while performing Pujas. After that My dressing was clean, the best. In the course of times, I chatted with women , my sisters and they all dressed up in their best while going to the tempes, Concerts. The dressing never attention seeking but radiating a great ambience of dignified celebration. When I see smartly dressed women nowadys in temples, I suddenly realize they are all representation in Microcosm of the Divine Primordial Femininity

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 15 Jan 2007, 20:54

jayaram wrote:
The saints and the saint-composers have of course reached the higher(est) plane.
And how do you know that? (Please don't take this as an argumentative question, it's a serious one, in the mode of a Socratic dialogue.)

They lived life not for themselves but for service of the Lord whether it is via the path of bhakti as in saint composers, and/or via the path of service as in saints etc. The common theme is no attachments to material comforts, as in no looking out or angling for one's own benefit in anything one does, and love and compassion for all etc. In the case of tyAgarAja, if we were to take it that when he sang nidhichAla, he not only meant it, he lived it, and not just in rare moments of spiritual upliftment

, then he reached that highest plane.

(i am not qualified at all to talk of these subjects as my exposure to Hindu (and Buddhist) philosophy and spirituality is very recent and thus very little. If interested, may i suggest reading up on Bhagwad Gita etc.)

Arun

manakkalsriram · Post by **manakkalsriram** » 15 Jan 2007, 21:17

Thyagaraja in Nidhichala says 'NIDHI CHALA SUGAMA' . If you have a close look at the song he says 'NIDHI SUGAM THAAN'. He uses 'Chala' to stress the fact that 'IS IT ENOUGH'. There is a sugam more precious to treasure than that and he says it is
'RAMA'S SANNIDHI'.
Thyagaraja says Nidhi is necessary but there is something more greater than that to experience. Otherwise thyagaraja would have composed the song as 'Nidhi Sugama'.
He would not have used 'Chala'.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 15 Jan 2007, 21:28

thanks sriram. Good point. But then doesnt it become subjective? What is "just enough" for me may look "excessive" to you. In fact that is the initial point of contention here/

IMHO, nidhi with sukham as in pleasure in material comforts cannot be a good trend. Once that happens, our threshold for "what is enough" can start to waver. Nidhi is *necessary* - for most of us (i mean discounting the one in a million saint!), but once you find it pleasurable, arent you are on a slippery slope?

Arun

manakkalsriram · Post by **manakkalsriram** » 15 Jan 2007, 22:21

Certainly arunk, you are absolutely right. Nidhi is only a necessity. Cannot find pleasure in it. It can only be a false pleasure. Thyagaraja was a real saint who regarded RAMA as the only wealth in the Universe. Keeping normal human beings in mind, I think he has used 'NIDHI CHALA SUGAMA' in the song. In the song Thelisi Rama Thyagaraja says 'Thalapu lanni nilipi nimishamaina Tharaka Rupini Nijathathvamulanu' . Just for a moment close your eyes and dwell on the Nama of Rama. That is true treasure. This nidhi is just false maya. It is poi sugam. Rama nama is nija Sugam. Nidhi can satisfy only outer worldly pleasure . That,s why our elders have told that true joy can be experienced only when we go deep inner to our soul. In the same 'Nidhi Chala song Thyagaraja says 'mamatha bandanayudha Narastuti Sugma. He asks what happiness do we get from praising egoistic human beings(Mugastuti). Sing the glory of Rama, he says. In 'pahi kalyana rama, Pavana Guna rama' (Kaapi) Divyanama, he says 'Na vamsa danamu' .(Rama, you are the wealth of my dynasty). 'Na Chidanandamu,na suga kandamu'(You are joy, you are sugam) 'Naadu sandoshamu,Na Muthu Veshamu' (you are happiness, you are the pearls), naadu Jeevanamu Nadu Youvanamu' (You are my life, you are youthfulness).
An ordinay human being would have jumped with joy if he had received a lottery of
Crores of rupees. But Thyagaraja jumps with joy at finding rama 'Kanu Kontini, Sriramuni' .
I am always firm with the theermanam that ' Nidhi ,as a pleasure, is dangerous and will lead to Aneedhi(Injustice). So, 'Naan Endrum Ramar Sannidhiye Gadhi'.
Sorry Arunk, What I have stated is enough or excess for you.

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 15 Jan 2007, 22:40

jayaram,

And how do you know that? (Please don't take this as an argumentative question, it's a serious one, in the mode of a Socratic dialogue.)

"...Once there was an annaprAsna ceremony in a guru's house. His disciples volunteered, according to their powers, to supply the different articles of food. He had one disciple, a very poor widow, who owned a cow. She milked it and brought the guru a jar of milk. He had thought she would take charge of all the milk and curd for the festival. Angry at her poor offering, he threw the milk away and said to her, "Go and drown yourself.' The widow accepted this as his command and went to the river to drown herself. But God was pleased with her guileless faith and, appearing before her, said: 'Take this pot of curd. You will never be able to empty it. The more curd you pour out, the more will come from the pot. This will satisfy your teacher.' The guru was speechless with amazement when the pot was given to him. After hearing from the widow the story of the pot, he went to the river, saying to her, 'I shall drown myself if you cannot show God to me.' God appeared then and there, but the guru could not see Him. Addressing God, the widow said, 'If my teacher gives up his body because Thou dost not reveal Thyself to him, then I too shall die.' So God appeared to the guru - but only once." (The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna - Page 1016)

"There is only one Guru, and that is SatchidAnanda. He alone is the Teacher. My attitude toward God is that of a child toward its mother. One can get gurus by the million. All want to be teachers. But who cares to be a disciple?" (ibid Page 141)

Whether the 'so called' saint composers are indeed saints or not, is besides the point. But let us first become the disciples.
Kindly also refer to my post - http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=32770#p32770 - Post No 5

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 16 Jan 2007, 00:07

manakkalsriram wrote:Nidhi is only a necessity. Cannot find pleasure in it. It can only be a false pleasure. Thyagaraja was a real saint who regarded RAMA as the only wealth in the Universe. Keeping normal human beings in mind, I think he has used 'NIDHI CHALA SUGAMA' in the song. In the song Thelisi Rama Thyagaraja says 'Thalapu lanni nilipi nimishamaina Tharaka Rupini Nijathathvamulanu' . Just for a moment close your eyes and dwell on the Nama of Rama. That is true treasure. This nidhi is just false maya. It is poi sugam. Rama nama is nija Sugam. Nidhi can satisfy only outer worldly pleasure . That,s why our elders have told that true joy can be experienced only when we go deep inner to our soul.

I agree - that is what I was implying too. Thanks.

Sorry Arunk, What I have stated is enough or excess for you.

. It was neither an iota more nor less!

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 16 Jan 2007, 00:25

vgvindan wrote:jayaram,
And how do you know that? (Please don't take this as an argumentative question, it's a serious one, in the mode of a Socratic dialogue.)
Whether the 'so called' saint composers are indeed saints or not, is besides the point. But let us first become the disciples.
Kindly also refer to my post - http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=32770#p32770 - Post No 5

Oh but i honestly do not think asking such a question is bad at all. IMO, everyone should ask that question. If you were to become a disciple, you have to know what message the guru has to offer, what is it you are a disciple for? It is fine to ask what it means that some saint attained enlightenment and how we know it. Asking so is not blashpemy. Blindly following something and not asking genuine dobts out of fear to speak out is a bigger crime.

If I may dare presume, simply saying "just think of the Lord, immerse yourself in the Lord etc.", I am afraid does not offer as much insight to most folks (myself included). Does this mean if one thinks and chant the Lord's name as often as I can is the beginning AND the end? Maybe in olden days when people did tapas for years. But today or even during Tyagaraja's time? I beg to differ. So many people know so many slokams AND chant it with fervour on a religious day at the temple, or during their prayers at home. Do all of them live life as Bhagwad Gita or Upanishads explain? In my personal experience - no. All of them have great devotion, but they are all still susceptible to ego, looking after one's own well-being etc.

(sorry for the major deviation from the topic!)

Arun

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 16 Jan 2007, 03:59

Hmm, we have moved deep into spirituality...and digressed far away from the original topic! In any case, here's my 2 paise worth...
To me, the key to enlightenment is the detachment (more accurately, non-attachment) with which one goes thru life. So it doesn't matter if today you are in a 5-star hotel and tomorrow you are in hut...you take both with equipoise and grace.
Continuing on this theme, why would it matter if someone showers you with gold coins? Why say no to it? Take it and give it to charity or help poor people. So long as one is not attached to the money (or anything else for that matter), being an instrument to transfer it from a king (or a rich sabha) to someone more deserving is karma yoga in my book. No need to shun material things and go live in a mountain at all. And this seems to be what the gita is saying.
We are told god is in 'the pillar and the rust', so how can enlightenment be so far away?

manakkalsriram · Post by **manakkalsriram** » 16 Jan 2007, 09:54

The song Shanthamu leka Sowkyamu Ledu also emphasises the point
'Thara sudulu Dhana Dhanyamu luntina' . In spite of having abundance of wealth or land, if you don't have peace of mind, then there is no Sowkyam.

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 16 Jan 2007, 12:18

Arun,
Spirituality - yes, that is the operative word for CM.
There is a Purandara Dasa Kriti 'Antarangada kadavu terayitindu' (forgive me for mistakes); also there is a Kriti of Thyagarja 'kanukoNTini SrI rAmuni'. Can somebody explain how a CM musician approaches these Kritis? Like any piece of poetry composed with paper, pencil and eraser?
There is nothing wrong with enquiry and scepticism, it is most essential these days of 'jaTilO muNDi' type of gurus roaming around the country-side dime-a-dozen.
Choosing a guru is more difficult than choosing a life partner. But when we are ripe enough the parrot will come to taste the fruit 'kiLi kottiya pazham'. See how sage Suka approached parIkShit at the appropriate time. That is why Sri Ramakrishna says that the real guru is Sat-cit-Ananda.
The practitioners of CM - most of them - have either not understood the underlying theme of 'spirituality' in CM. Had they done so, CM, would not be in cross roads - as we are discussing in this thread.
There is a term in Tamil - 'taDuttATkoNDAn' தடுத்தாட்கொண்டான் - this is not just a word - it is true - I have experienced it. The 'nAda tanumaniSam' - the 'tennADuDaiya Sivan' will surely hold the hands of sincere seekers of CM and deliver from the predicament faced by CM musicians.
OM - May Saint Thyagaraja Bless us all
V Govindan

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 16 Jan 2007, 12:48

Why should anyone be revered for their relationship with their god?

It is how they treat their fellow beings that counts.

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 16 Jan 2007, 17:01

Shri Govindan,

Your last post is fascinating. I think you are hinting at some deep ideas. The 'real guru is sat-chit-ananda' statement is quite intriguing. The challenge seems to be how to get to this state of bliss in the first place!

Can you please elaborate on the 'taDuttATkoNDAn' phrase. You say you have experienced it. What is this 'it' that you are referring to?

Jayaram

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 16 Jan 2007, 17:04

nick H wrote:Why should anyone be revered for their relationship with their god?
It is how they treat their fellow beings that counts.

Nick - it's possible that one's relationship to one's god has a bearing on how that person interacts with their fellow human being.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 16 Jan 2007, 17:15

Or, vice versa.
Nick,
To quote DAsA (purandara, I think)--mAnava sEvA mAdhava sEvA (service to fellow human beings is service to God)...

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 16 Jan 2007, 18:42

IMHO, nick got the order right as per karma yOga. You find your relationship with God by treating fellow human beings (*all* inspite of their faults) with compassion. In my limited experience, i certainly do NOT find people who are devoted to God (as in relationship to temple) treat fellow human beings with respect. But then I believe most of us are hopelessly confused and misguided about Who God really is (atleast I was and in many ways still am). Per the real and true meaning as implied by Bhagwad Gita and Upanishads, devotion/love towards God is indeed love towards all - one and the same.

Arun

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 16 Jan 2007, 18:46

'taDuttATkoNDAn' means the act of providence - a grace - which, as an unseen hand, gives a direction during the peak of a crisis in life, but for which the life would have taken a totally different turn. You realise it, much later, when you look back.
Elaborating more on this may not be relevant to this thread. I brought this out only to say that one who is earnest in his approach, gets the guidance.

nick
I think probably I have been misunderstood. It is not Sri Purandara Dasa or Sri Thyagaraja who need to be revered as saints - they are far above it - 'brahma-vid brahmaiva bhavati'.
If the intention is to sing their kritis - which are deeply spiritual in nature - the CM musician has to know more than the meanings. One has to capture their state of mind. My question remains - can someone explain how a CM musician approaches a kriti like 'antarangada kadavu terayitindu' by Sri Purandara Dasa?
Whether one reveres the person or not is immaterial, but if you want to capture the state of their minds, one must revere their reverence.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 16 Jan 2007, 18:49

vgvindan wrote:AThe practitioners of CM - most of them - have either not understood the underlying theme of 'spirituality' in CM. Had they done so, CM, would not be in cross roads - as we are discussing in this thread.

I will be bolder and say that almost all rasikas (and most human beings) fall into the same category. So why single out practioners of CM as a special category. Every one has the same goals (and hence obligations if you want to look at it that way) - there are no exceptions.

If one were to treat a tyAgarAja krithi with so much respect to use his message to show someone else in bad light with scorn (as i see time and again), - then then one should really follow that message in real life. But if one really does so and follows sprituality as per the scriptures, scorn is certainly not the sentiment I would expect them have in this situation.

Per this argument neither the person being scorned, nor the person doing the scorning get pass marks.

Arun

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 16 Jan 2007, 19:17

I will be bolder and say that almost all rasikas (and most human beings) fall into the same category.

I cannot more agree with you. But isn't a musician a rasika first? All musicians are rasikas, but not all risikas are musicians - like me.

Regarding the scorn in the kriti of Sri tyAgarAja. I will take this example - 'nAdupai balikeru narulu'. This kriti was addressed to his God to whom he has complained. If his Sishyas have noted down the kriti and are singing them, it is their fault. Such kritis are not to be sung by others. I had brought this out earlier in this forum. How a kriti coined for a particular occasion be relevant for all occasions? Thyagarja, if he is alive today, would not approve of singing of this kriti.

That leaves us with the question - such kritis of Sri Tyagarja which are contextual in nature and peculiar to his person, should they be treated as regular kritis. A number of kritis of Sri tyAgarAja belong to this category.

I will take another example - 'kanulu tAkani para kAntalu'. Under what circumstances this kriti was sung is not clear. This kriti, though very melodious, is IMHO, not suitable for public singing - but I would like to hear this kriti again and again for these two rapturous epithets - mana mOhnAnda - mada cakOra nayana'.
IMHO, a good portion of tyAgaraja kritis are a monologue with the Lord and purely contextual. Such kritis may not be suitable for singing by others.
This is another important issue that needs to be addressed.

Unlike Dikshitar and SyAmA Sastri kritis, which are general in nature and can be sung on all occasions, tyAgarAja kritis, most of them are contextual in nature.

PS : Today I have posted a kriti 'mApAla velasi' - rAga asAvEri in our wiki. (There is spelling error - it is listed as 'mAmpAla velasita'). In this kriti, Sri tyAgarAja states 'which job would I attend to in the midst of misfortunes caused by these sinful minded people?' This is another example of contextual kritis.

I may however mention that such kritis are of excellent biographical value for the guidance of devotee-lot which depicts the trials and tribulations undergone by Sri Tyagaraja.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 16 Jan 2007, 20:49

vgvindan wrote:
I will be bolder and say that almost all rasikas (and most human beings) fall into the same category.
I cannot more agree with you. But isn't a musician a rasika first? All musicians are rasikas, but not all risikas are musicians - like me.

I agree - but dont you sense that more seems to be expected out of musicians? I just dont agree with that take at all.

Regarding the scorn in the kriti of Sri tyAgarAja. I will take this example - 'nAdupai balikeru narulu'. This kriti was addressed to his God to whom he has complained. If his Sishyas have noted down the kriti and are singing them, it is their fault. Such kritis are not to be sung by others. I had brought this out earlier in this forum. How a kriti coined for a particular occasion be relevant for all occasions? Thyagarja, if he is alive today, would not approve of singing of this kriti.

I certainly agree about personal nature of tyAgarAja's krithis but we do not know whether he taught such krithis or whether they were "surreptiously" learnt and thus we can place blame on sishyas (the general notion is the earlier one).

But even so, saying "it is their fault" - isnt that too presumptious of us to easily place blame on others? And here we are talking of those who had direct interaction from him, and who had a guru-sishya relationship with him? Isnt this similar to how blame is placed on musicians. What makes us think our notions are "better"? Or is it just another one those clever, devious game by our ego? More often than not, we create a vision of our idols at the highest pedastal, steeped in absolute purity. And we are willing to trample anyone else who can appear to disturb that vision. Where is the spirituality in that?

Why also presume that tyAgarAja wouldnt approve it? If he was spiritually enlightened, he would not disallow - would be? He may chide someone for misinterpreting it and point out the corrections and inner meaning, but disapprove and hence disallow implying he was offended that someone would sing something that should not be? Or be dismissive of such a person? Wouldnt that reflect one's ego as well? And hence wouldnt he be above it?

Arun

PS: But then again I am presuming too much based on what my belief of tyAgarAja's state of mind, and my ideas on spirituality. You obviously have a different take

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 16 Jan 2007, 21:07

Regarding the kriti 'kanulu tAkani', if what I infer about the context of the kriti is correct, there is a parallel in the life of Ramalinga AdigalAr - a Tamil saint. Ramalinga Adigal, in his younger age, was very handsome, and more so, because of spiritual practices, his face was glowing. According to what I read somewhere (source not readily traceable), many women were attracted to him. Therefore, in order to conceal his body, he started wearing a white dhoti covering his whole body, including his head, leaving out only his face.

IMHO, some such circumstances might have prompted Sri tyAgarAja to address Lord through this kriti. How such kritis would be suitable for public singing? - this needs to be addressed seriously.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 16 Jan 2007, 21:30

Maybe public singing of such a sing is the same as narrating a section of a long story (sort of). It can at best be a cue for people to read up on the whole story and the morals in it.

Now of course if the "story" is adorned with music, for many the music can push itself to the fore-front that you forget the lyrics, and the context, and hence the story. You fall in love with the decorations rather than what it is decorating

We know that happens. But it isnt necessarily the music's fault, as for as many the same music acts as an extremely powerful medium to express the story.

But what is the story? I will steal ideas right from your blog. You are very right to say in your blog that tyAgaraja has opened his heart out in his songs, exposing everything (incl. faults). If one were to at his works as a whole, you get the story, i.e. his thought processes, his goals and how he is progressed towards it (i will admit here itself that i havent done this study on his krithis yet).

Arun

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 16 Jan 2007, 23:25

vgvindan wrote:That leaves us with the question - such kritis of Sri Tyagarja which are contextual in nature and peculiar to his person, should they be treated as regular kritis. A number of kritis of Sri tyAgarAja belong to this category.

I will take another example - 'kanulu tAkani para kAntalu'. Under what circumstances this kriti was sung is not clear. This kriti, though very melodious, is IMHO, not suitable for public singing

But in that case, wouldn't we lose out a large number of his gems? Kritis like paramAtmuDu veligE, dayajUchuTakidi vELara, giripai nelakonna, rAgaratna mAlikachE etc all contain autobiographical references?

-Ramakriya

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 16 Jan 2007, 23:44

Ramakriya,
I had made a general statement about certain kritis being contextual and not suitable for public singing - the peculiarity of these kritis being that they contain critical reference to his relatives and others which were momentary in nature and not to be carried forward for ever. That is why I also mentioned that Sri tyAgarAja, if alive now, would have himself disapproved of singing 'nApai balikeru narulu'. Doesn't it amount to slandering the descendents for the fault of one person - and that too who apologised later and became an ardent devotee of Sri tyAgarAja - I am referring to his elder brother (As mentioned by Brahma Sri TS Balakrishna Sastrigal in his discourse on Thyagaraja Ramayana).
In case of 'kanulu tAkani', it contains a reference to some woman - and not general nature.
However, of the kritis which you brought out, none comes under that category. They are general in nature having no specific reference to anyone but himself. Of course, I should have clarified what I meant by 'contextual'. I just gave a few examples.
We have to sit down and analyse which are those kritis. ParamAtmudu veligE is definitely not one such.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 17 Jan 2007, 00:45

vgvindan,

your last post clarifies your point better and it makes sense. I didnt your point entirely from your earlier posts

Arun

kkumar29 · Post by **kkumar29** » 17 Jan 2007, 03:17

All this talk about spirituality, higher divine purpose etc etc is making my head spin:) Can I just listen to a beautiful rendering or Kharaharapriya, Sahana or a Todi:) ?

To me these ragas sound melodious without understanding the meaning of the lyrics/compositions.

And then we wonder why more people don't listen to carnatic music:lol:

K. Kumar.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 17 Jan 2007, 06:41

kkumar,

- Sorry! Although perhaps you missed it - the argument was not the tired old "lyrics" vs "music" argument.

And then we wonder why more people don't listen to carnatic music:lol:

True all this talk would turn many newbies off more than inspire them but ... we also wonder why humans won't stop hating and killing each other. Perhaps we should completely forget the the "ideal" there too, and do what most are doing anyway - just relax and enjoy life as long as it doesnt affect us personally

;-)!

Arun

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 17 Jan 2007, 06:44

boy am i in a serious mood the last couple of days

!

Arun

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 17 Jan 2007, 06:47

arunk wrote:Perhaps we should completely forget the the "ideal" there too, and do what most are doing anyway - just relax and enjoy life as long as it doesnt affect us personally ;-)!

Arun

Arun,
Isn't that exactly what we are doing? We are discussing music when weapons are destroying masses around the world in the name of destroying weapons of mass destruction.

'jab dES mein thI dIwAlI
wOh khEl rahE thE hOlI
jab hum baiTE thE gharOn mein
wOh jhEl rahE thE gOlI'

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 17 Jan 2007, 07:00

yes ravi which is why i said "do what most are doing anyway"

. But i was implying whether we should just forget the ideals because of that and thus never have a chance to break out of it?

Arun

kkumar29 · Post by **kkumar29** » 17 Jan 2007, 07:08

Hi Arun,

No I didn't miss the fact that this was not "lyrics" vs "music" argument. What I meant was that to enjoy music one doesn't need to strive to understand the hidden meanings, philosophies and always aim to achieve spiritual salvation.

One could simply enjoy the music for music's sake. Though these things do exist and is available for people who are seeking them, making this a pre-condition for listening tends to send a message to the people who are not seeking them that they are somehow inferior. This I think is what scares people away.

K. Kumar.

kkumar29 · Post by **kkumar29** » 17 Jan 2007, 07:10

Ravi,

pasand apni apni aur matlab apni apni

K. Kumar.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 17 Jan 2007, 07:13

MAN
Born to be wild --
Has to Live, to outgrow it.

Doug Horton

Has to Live AND LISTEN
Coolkarni

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 17 Jan 2007, 07:22

kumar,

i didnt imply otherwise (??). My original point was whether people can use a spiritual ideal to point faults at others (e.g. musicians), when they themselves may not hold up to them. It was supposed to be my only point. My ramblings obviously took me all over the map!

I enjoy lot (in fact most!) of the music without understanding the lyrics and the meanings morals behind them. I can enjoy music for the music's sake. But some could compare this to temporary enjoyment vs more lasting enjoyment (or peripheral vs deeper enjoyment)

. They may have a point.

Arun

kkumar29 · Post by **kkumar29** » 17 Jan 2007, 08:22

Hi Arun,

I think we are both saying the same thing.

But some could compare this to temporary enjoyment vs more lasting enjoyment (or peripheral vs deeper enjoyment) . They may have a point.

They are entitled to their deeper enjoyment. But please don't put down the others' enjoyment as peripheral or temporary because that is what reeks of elitism. Live and let live.

One man's food is another's poison

My last post on this subject.

K. Kumar.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 17 Jan 2007, 08:50

pasand apni apni aur matlab apni apni

Khayal Apna Apna ....

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 17 Jan 2007, 08:56

I guess i am not communicating clearly as my intention certainly was not to put down (heck wasnt i making fun of myself there? The wink was there too!). But i can understand how it may seem that way.

I was comparing with similar strains of thoughts in Hindu (and for that matter all religion) philosophy regarding temporary enjoyment vs more-lasting enjoyment, vs temporary peace and everlasting peace. Whether one buys it or not is one's prerogative.

Arun

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 17 Jan 2007, 12:17

because that is what reeks of elitism..

In fact this is an issue which is a very basic one that needs consideration , when one tries to broad base the "Listenership"- If I may call it that.

There is an inherent danger of the simplest of approaches from the top end ,being misconstrued as elitism
as compared to to risk of somebody at the bottom end not venturing to climb the ladder of assimilation ---something that can be done only with time , effort and helpful prodding.

Having started at the bottom myself decades ago , here are my two cents .One for each end of the ladder.(though I find myself always ,nearer to the floor than the sky )

For anybody who is operating from the bottom end ..

Classical music -especially CM-is like a jackfruit .
Some enjoy the task of opening up the fruit , some enjoy the taste of the fruit , and a few rare ones open it up to make sambar out of those seeds.It is indeed a rare artist who appeals to the whole range of emotions , which vary according to age and experience.
There was a brief moment when the contrasts were very
glaring in my own home.
My son dancing to MM Iyers English note .
Me totally absorbed in the seemingly Perpetual nature of his
Swara Singing.
And my Dad exclaiming -" man how does he get so much pathos into his "Ethenayo Piraivi" sequence in Thookiya Thiruvadi....

And then follows a realisation that one lifetime is not enough to master the whole gamut of experiences .
A pre requisite .
If one is firm in the belief that he will not be put off by elitists on the way.

As far as the view from the top end is concerned , There is a fine story narrated by Lin Yutang in his book "The Importance of Living ", reproduced here..
Does not need any more explanation.

When Confucius was hemmed in between Châ€™en and Tsâ€™ai, he passed seven days without food..
The Minsiter Jen went to condole with him , and said,
â€œYou were near , Sir, to Deathâ€

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 17 Jan 2007, 12:23

Forgot to add
My last post on the subject, too.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 17 Jan 2007, 14:05

May be on this turf, Cool. Keep them coming...

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 17 Jan 2007, 18:34

amen to that! Great stuff coolji.

Arun

Music · Post by **Music** » 17 Jan 2007, 23:05

vgvindan wrote:Ramakriya,
I had made a general statement about certain kritis being contextual and not suitable for public singing - the peculiarity of these kritis being that they contain critical reference to his relatives and others which were momentary in nature and not to be carried forward for ever.

We could look at this differently and find it ok to listen to songs like 'nAdu pai palikeru' in a public performace. Understanding the meaning & context of the kriti, the artist could put himself/herself in the composer's shoes and present what the composer felt at that point of time - more like a drama.......showing what the composer felt through music. Music is indeed a medium of expressing our feelings. And by singing 'nadu pai palikeru' in a public performance, we get to preserve the song, the composer's emotions, and the music.
When I first came to know of the meaning of this song, I felt happy in a way to realise that even this saint composer had such feelings and emotions that a normal human being. He was a saint and attained Rama, but was as human as we all are & had the same emotions as we all do.
Now having said that, if we know the meaning of the song, it would not be pleasant to hear someone singing swarakalpana at 'nadu pai palikeru'.........would sound like the artist is musically & imaginatively complaining about a relative over and over again

.

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 17 Jan 2007, 23:29

I think there are enough hints to close the thread. So this is last post by me too. We Indians outsmart everyone in brushing the dirt under the carpet.

Music · Post by **Music** » 18 Jan 2007, 01:26

Jeez, some reason I always expected only kind words in vgvindan's posts. Still trying to figure if my last post could have been offensive in any way.