Arohana / Avarohana

To teach and learn Indian classical music
Post Reply
twister
Posts: 50
Joined: 04 Jul 2008, 15:47

Post by twister »

Hi again,

Hope that you're not fatigued already by my incompetent questions :)

The today's one is concerning the arohi / avarohi rules. It is told that this is a very strict rule, but I can't get the following:

1) When it is told about aroha, it is the matter of ascending movement. But, does it imply the succession of notes (like Sa-Ri-Ga) OR they absolute pitch? In another words, is it valid Arohana when I play, say Sa-Ri-then Ga but an octave lower? Is it permitted to randomly place notes in different octaves in aroha / avaroha? Or, just the strict succession within an octave?

2) I can't get whether such movemenets as SPGNR are allowed if the prescribed arohana is SRGMP? Is this a crime? Or, is this another raga?

3) If the answer to 2) is "it's allright", so, say if I have the mentioned progression: SPGNR, it is possible to create 25 (well, sort of) combinations of it (by replacing the order of swaram), and then I can juggle them within a 5-beat tala (2+3, 3+2, 4+1 or 1+4)? Did I get it right? Or, am I grossly wrong?

If this all is wrong from the classical point of view, is this in any way has sense?

Thank you again dear patient Rasikas! :)

arunk
Posts: 3424
Joined: 07 Feb 2010, 21:41

Post by arunk »

http://sunson.wordpress.com/2008/10/06/ ... avarohana/ - may answer some of your questions. Basically you can ascend from a swara, if it is in the arohana. You can descend from a swara if it is in the avarohana. Jumps are allowed but overuse of them (say s g p r d m in Sankarabharanam) would not be prudent as it will quickly deviate from the intended melodic character of the raga.

btw, #1: it is ascent/descent in term of pitch.

Generally though trying to create melodies from the bottom up (i.e. piecing together swaras using any formulae) - can make the end result sound contrived and artificial.

Arun

twister
Posts: 50
Joined: 04 Jul 2008, 15:47

Post by twister »

Arun,

Not all that I further suppose is linked to the classical canons of CM...
arunk wrote:Basically you can ascend from a swara, if it is in the arohana. You can descend from a swara if it is in the avarohana.
Yes, at last I've cought it! Thank you for the clear explanation given in your blog!
Jumps are allowed but overuse of them (say s g p r d m in Sankarabharanam) would not be prudent as it will quickly deviate from the intended melodic character of the raga.
Aha. Here I came to a dead-end. Say, I've got the phrase: SgndP. What is it?

a) Is it a sample of jumps in a certain raga which structure is SgPdn? Then, it is possible to construct say 24 different 5-notes combinations and use them as a vocabulary, isn it?

b) Or, is it a special "zig-zag" raag in this case? So, please - this is very important for me to understand - say, how does sarali-varisai can be construced for such ragas? If the initial succession is (no matter) SgndP, then by breaking it up into triplets what should I get? Sgn-gnd-ndP-dPS-PSg, right?
Generally though trying to create melodies from the bottom up (i.e. piecing together swaras using any formulae) - can make the end result sound contrived and artificial.
Yes, of course i see it and not actually trying to "check the music with algebra" - it is simply too beutiful so i drop my compasses each time i try :)

But, I believe that there should be some regularity in developing a certain set (not yet a raga). So, if I have (again) a custom set - SgndP - where to move next? How to develop it? Should I highlight each swara in it as jiva or janya? Should I connect it with another sets or what? How is it connected to the arohana-avarohana concept? By now, I have a key but have no doors around..

Appreciate your help!
Last edited by twister on 25 Nov 2008, 14:30, edited 1 time in total.

arunk
Posts: 3424
Joined: 07 Feb 2010, 21:41

Post by arunk »

twister wrote: Aha. Here I came to a dead-end. Say, I've got the phrase: SgndP. What is it?
I am not sure I understand your question. What do you mean by what is it :) ? Is this a phrase in a raga? If so, the answer depends on the answer to the question what is the raga's arohana and avarohana?

If this is a phrase - then for a raga that includes ri in its arohana (say s r g p ....), and hence s-ga is a jump, this would almost never happen because
(i) because it involves consecutive jumps (s-g and g-n) - which are rare
and
(ii) it is in the same direction in terms of pitch i.e. ascent with a jump from sa-ga, and continued ascent with a jump from ga-ni (Now if ni is in lower octave it is not in the same direction and is somewhat better)

Now, I must state that there is no laid out official rule that consecutive-jumps are rare in carnatic music, and once in the same direction are even rarer to completely absent. This is just based on my observation. I could be wrong - but I think in general this is true.

Now if the raga skips ri (say its arohana is s g m p d n s), then s g n d - is only one jump (ga-ni which skips ma and pa) and after a jump you come back to da, and pa. This would probably occur in such a raga.
a) Is it a sample of jumps in a certain raga which structure is SgPdn? Then, it is possible to construct say 24 different 5-notes combinations and use them as a vocabulary, isn it?

b) Or, is it a special "zig-zag" raag in this case? So, please - this is very important for me to understand - say, how does sarali-varisai can be construced for such ragas? If the initial succession is (no matter) SgndP, then by breaking it up into triplets what should I get? Sgn-gnd-ndP-dPS-PSg, right?
Usually sarali varisas are done to the order of aro/avaro and not arbitrary phrases. But let us disregard that since what you are aiming at is to sort of construct a kalpanaswara passage from a base phrase like sgndp.

But basically - you need to take BOTH the arohana and avarohana together.
1. In your sgn gnd ndp dps psg - every transition must meet those rules.
2. If the resulting phrase has a lot of consecutive jumps (which it does e.g. as gn gn with g-n n-g g-n) you are once again going to be constructing something that doesnt reflect the melodic nature of the raga. This will result in a more "western" interpretation of the raga's aro/avaro as a scale - i.e. basically jumps are allowed at any time, at any numbers albeit ruled still by aesthetics (say harmonic relationship between the jumps).

In CM, the "order" of swaras as established by aro/avaro is mostly maintained. This basically means that consecutive jumps are rare (but not fully absent) compared to say WM. This is one of the reasons why a western music tune in major scale sounds so different from Sankarabharanam (of course gamakas are a huge differentiator as well).

Again this is just my observation - not an official rule. I elaborate on this in these two blog posts (2 parts of same topic):
http://sunson.wordpress.com/2007/08/19/ ... nd-scales/
http://sunson.wordpress.com/2007/08/31/ ... es-part-2/

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 25 Nov 2008, 20:39, edited 1 time in total.

twister
Posts: 50
Joined: 04 Jul 2008, 15:47

Post by twister »

Arun,

Thank you for the work you've done to compare and distinguish between Western and Carnatic music! It was interesting and useful for me to read your articles.

And, as for my questions, I've realised that I am unable to describe this in words as I wish. I'm gonna upload a 7 minute audio example of a raga I am interested in and would ask you to comment it. Because, I've found some significant difference in approaches of a raga rendering even within the Indian tradition.

Thank you again!

twister
Posts: 50
Joined: 04 Jul 2008, 15:47

Post by twister »

Any comments on the following composition are welcome and greatly appreciated: http://www.uploading.com/files/TU8K9LZD ... a.mp3.html

it's 7 min, 9 Mb.

It seems that it isn't really Carnatic raga, but... How is it constructed? What is its structure? I wonder..

Pre-thanx!

arunk
Posts: 3424
Joined: 07 Feb 2010, 21:41

Post by arunk »

this is hindustani. I am not familiar with the structure of hm bhairavi (i.e. what constraints are placed on the underlying scale).

Are you looking to break this down to underlying swaras? That is a daunting task for such a piece (lengthy, not a preset composition).

Arun

twister
Posts: 50
Joined: 04 Jul 2008, 15:47

Post by twister »

Hi Arun,

Sorry for the delay...

It appears to me that HM Bhairavi is similar to CM Sindhu Bhairavi. Or, am I mistaken?

Actually, I am looking to break this down to underlying structure. There is an explicit dramatic concept of rendering this raag and I wonder what is it? Well, I thought this task is daunting to me only :)

twister
Posts: 50
Joined: 04 Jul 2008, 15:47

Post by twister »

At least, what style of performance is this? What genre, or whatever.. Any direction to dig closer please..

It is rare to me to hear such a rendition of a raag be it HM or CM.

Thank you!

Post Reply