http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 01721.html
courtesy Ram/Sathej
Interesting Experiment - Washington Post
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braindrain
- Posts: 587
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 09:25
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vasanthakokilam
- Posts: 10958
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
Quite a nice experiment. It will be interesting to see the results if the experiment was conducted in the later afternoon and weekend...
Here is my own similar experience I just remembered. This is 27 years or so back. It was late afternoon/early evening. Place is the Mambalam or Saidapet suburban train station. I was climbing the stairs to get to the platform from the street side. I heard some carnatic music on the flute. It was an alapana of sorts. That immediately attracted me. I walked up further and got to the bridge part of the structure and saw where the music was coming from. It was a man in some very minimal and ordinary but clean clothes sitting along the side of the walkway bridge and playing the flute. There was a little cup for people to throw some money.
It was quite a busy time and many of you know how it is at that time of the day at suburban train stations. There was huge hustle and bustle and no one was stopping by to listen. A few threw some coins into this cup. Though I took the train daily to get to college and back, I was not a regular at that station at that time of the day, so I was not sure if he played there every day, but for me that was the first time. It was quite a captivating music. He was much much better than your average street side guy playing something. I stopped to listen. I do not think I was hurrying anywhere, so I had the luxury of time. I vaguely remember that he was playing Kambhoji alapana quite expansively. Then he played a song and it sounded quite good. After he stopped playing, I went to him, dropped a rupee or so and talked to him.
He was bit of an angry and frustrated man. He was not shy about showing his frustration on how no one gives him any chances to earn a living playing music and that he is reduced to this way of making a few rupees. His story, as told by him, was that he was the flutist for one of the leading Bharathanatyam dancers at that time ( he told me the name, but I will withhold it here ) and he fell out of favor and got kicked out. He said that he could have stayed but his honor was at stake and he would rather beg than bow down etc. I remember thinking at that time, given his angry attitude, it was not that surprising that something like that happened, but then also thought that his anger may have been due to him being kicked out of the dance group. He was quite vocal and loud about his complaints about that dancer.
Anyway, his background, as narrated by him, seemed to ring true to some extent. His was playing reasonably well and he was dropping big star names in the dance and music business.
I did feel bad that a carnatic musician was in that state and I thought briefly about doing something about that, like have him teach flute to others. But his angry personality was a bit of a turn off and I was not sure what I will be getting myself into. I was learning to play the flute a little bit at that time and I did think about asking him if he would like to teach me flute. But I did not go through with that. I was a student with very little resources on my own. At the end, I gave him ten rupees, which was big for me then and walked off.. I remember feeling a bit bad for not doing more.
And he started playing another nice carnatic song on the flute as I walked away. It was very good. No one still stopped to listen.
Here is my own similar experience I just remembered. This is 27 years or so back. It was late afternoon/early evening. Place is the Mambalam or Saidapet suburban train station. I was climbing the stairs to get to the platform from the street side. I heard some carnatic music on the flute. It was an alapana of sorts. That immediately attracted me. I walked up further and got to the bridge part of the structure and saw where the music was coming from. It was a man in some very minimal and ordinary but clean clothes sitting along the side of the walkway bridge and playing the flute. There was a little cup for people to throw some money.
It was quite a busy time and many of you know how it is at that time of the day at suburban train stations. There was huge hustle and bustle and no one was stopping by to listen. A few threw some coins into this cup. Though I took the train daily to get to college and back, I was not a regular at that station at that time of the day, so I was not sure if he played there every day, but for me that was the first time. It was quite a captivating music. He was much much better than your average street side guy playing something. I stopped to listen. I do not think I was hurrying anywhere, so I had the luxury of time. I vaguely remember that he was playing Kambhoji alapana quite expansively. Then he played a song and it sounded quite good. After he stopped playing, I went to him, dropped a rupee or so and talked to him.
He was bit of an angry and frustrated man. He was not shy about showing his frustration on how no one gives him any chances to earn a living playing music and that he is reduced to this way of making a few rupees. His story, as told by him, was that he was the flutist for one of the leading Bharathanatyam dancers at that time ( he told me the name, but I will withhold it here ) and he fell out of favor and got kicked out. He said that he could have stayed but his honor was at stake and he would rather beg than bow down etc. I remember thinking at that time, given his angry attitude, it was not that surprising that something like that happened, but then also thought that his anger may have been due to him being kicked out of the dance group. He was quite vocal and loud about his complaints about that dancer.
Anyway, his background, as narrated by him, seemed to ring true to some extent. His was playing reasonably well and he was dropping big star names in the dance and music business.
I did feel bad that a carnatic musician was in that state and I thought briefly about doing something about that, like have him teach flute to others. But his angry personality was a bit of a turn off and I was not sure what I will be getting myself into. I was learning to play the flute a little bit at that time and I did think about asking him if he would like to teach me flute. But I did not go through with that. I was a student with very little resources on my own. At the end, I gave him ten rupees, which was big for me then and walked off.. I remember feeling a bit bad for not doing more.
And he started playing another nice carnatic song on the flute as I walked away. It was very good. No one still stopped to listen.
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braindrain
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rajumds
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braindrain
- Posts: 587
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 09:25
May be we are reading too much into this article, here is one more for those interested...
http://www.tnr.com/story_print.html?id= ... 638e30448a
http://www.tnr.com/story_print.html?id= ... 638e30448a
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rajeeram
- Posts: 105
- Joined: 02 Sep 2006, 00:04
Vasanthakokilam, thanks for sharing that experience. That was sad, I hope that the opportunities for our artists are improving.
I was discussing this article with my Guru sometime back and wondering what would be the result of such an experiment with Carnatic Music, say in Chennai.
I was my optimistic self arguing that if RK Sriramkumar/Ganesh-Kumaresh/GJR Krishnan in daily clothes were to play an aalaapana followed by a majestic composition of Dikshitar (somehow for me Bach always parallels Dikshithar) at the Gunidy station, people would recognize who they are and stop to listen. But my Guru was saying that the proportion of people passing through that will stop and listen would be about the same. Of course in India, the sheer numbers of people mean a crowd gathers for everything. And she was lamenting about the cultural erosion.
This might have a whiff of cultural snobbery, but I always believed the average Indian was more aware of the classical arts than the average American. But I think differently of Europeans. Am I completely out-of-touch with the reality in India? Or am I just stereotyping?
To quote from the article,
I was discussing this article with my Guru sometime back and wondering what would be the result of such an experiment with Carnatic Music, say in Chennai.
I was my optimistic self arguing that if RK Sriramkumar/Ganesh-Kumaresh/GJR Krishnan in daily clothes were to play an aalaapana followed by a majestic composition of Dikshitar (somehow for me Bach always parallels Dikshithar) at the Gunidy station, people would recognize who they are and stop to listen. But my Guru was saying that the proportion of people passing through that will stop and listen would be about the same. Of course in India, the sheer numbers of people mean a crowd gathers for everything. And she was lamenting about the cultural erosion.
This might have a whiff of cultural snobbery, but I always believed the average Indian was more aware of the classical arts than the average American. But I think differently of Europeans. Am I completely out-of-touch with the reality in India? Or am I just stereotyping?
To quote from the article,
That is indeed a thought-provoking question. If music gets this reception, what would be the reaction to Art? I wonder how many people would stop by if a Matisse was hung on the wall across from the elevator at my work.In a banal setting at an inconvenient time, would beauty transcend?
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vasanthakokilam
- Posts: 10958
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
Kant's answer to 'What is beauty' is, as the article says, "a bit inherent", "a bit of opinion" and contextually dependent on the state of mind of the observer. Though I do not know why Kant is given so much credit for such a common sense observation ( 2/3 of the criteria is with the beholder and hence "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" ), this experiment is a validation of that principle.
Having said that, I am still surprised at the reaction of the crowd. I would have expected more people to stop and listen, even considering the morning hour rush. Rajeeram, I also agree that Continental Europe would have been different where this kind of thing is fairly common and there is a bit more commonlity in tastes when it comes to classical arts.
Another point to observe is, though beauty is partly inherent, it takes knowledge on the part of the beholder to appreciate that inherent part. That is why, it is hard for casual people to evaluate if a classical performance is good or not. It is not just 'Does it sound good or not" "Do I have a good time" type criteria which one can apply to more openly appealing type of music. That is why "reputation" matters a lot for classical musicians. People will still show up for such "reputed" musicians and even if they did not enjoy the music that much they will give the benefit of the doubt to the musician. Because it is not that easy to tell and one does not want to be the fool to trash a concert which the other knowledgeables may rave about.
Having said that, I am still surprised at the reaction of the crowd. I would have expected more people to stop and listen, even considering the morning hour rush. Rajeeram, I also agree that Continental Europe would have been different where this kind of thing is fairly common and there is a bit more commonlity in tastes when it comes to classical arts.
Another point to observe is, though beauty is partly inherent, it takes knowledge on the part of the beholder to appreciate that inherent part. That is why, it is hard for casual people to evaluate if a classical performance is good or not. It is not just 'Does it sound good or not" "Do I have a good time" type criteria which one can apply to more openly appealing type of music. That is why "reputation" matters a lot for classical musicians. People will still show up for such "reputed" musicians and even if they did not enjoy the music that much they will give the benefit of the doubt to the musician. Because it is not that easy to tell and one does not want to be the fool to trash a concert which the other knowledgeables may rave about.
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VK RAMAN
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I believe beauty of a song is in the ears, eyes and analytical brains of the beholder and it is very relative. Reputation matters to those who likes statusquo. I have seen and I move with several who keep looking for the familiar whether it be community, song, food, or color. Breaking out of familiar and trying to make the unfamiliar familiar is creative and makes the enjoyment more thrilling. It is like using salt in prepared food even before tasting it.
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rajeeram
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Vk, it's an interesting point you bring up about reputation.
I agree with you that the inherent beauty in classical arts is not always apparent, does not always lend itself to instant understanding .A lot of times the beauty is in the discipline, in the complexity of patterns and such, the recognition of which requires some systematic training. I guess this is why they get labeled sometimes as 'elitist'. I guess probably there is even a small section of the audience that show up to fit in to a certain social strata.
This is slightly tangential, but from personal experience, I know that the reputation of the artists ensures that some budding rasikas, who might not find their music instantly appealing, take the time to evolve enough to appreciate their art.
This might be heresy - as a teenager, I could never 'get' the music of Semmangudi and MDR (Though I have attended Semmangudi concerts at the Navarathri Mandapam in Trivandrum many times) even as everyone around me raved about their music. Of course, their standing in the CM world as well as the constant praise that knowledgeable rasikas around me, whom I looked up, showered on these artistes, made sure that I continued listening to them and even though it took me years, I am glad to say to I have evolved enough as a rasika to appreciate SSI and MDR.
I agree with you that the inherent beauty in classical arts is not always apparent, does not always lend itself to instant understanding .A lot of times the beauty is in the discipline, in the complexity of patterns and such, the recognition of which requires some systematic training. I guess this is why they get labeled sometimes as 'elitist'. I guess probably there is even a small section of the audience that show up to fit in to a certain social strata.
This is slightly tangential, but from personal experience, I know that the reputation of the artists ensures that some budding rasikas, who might not find their music instantly appealing, take the time to evolve enough to appreciate their art.
This might be heresy - as a teenager, I could never 'get' the music of Semmangudi and MDR (Though I have attended Semmangudi concerts at the Navarathri Mandapam in Trivandrum many times) even as everyone around me raved about their music. Of course, their standing in the CM world as well as the constant praise that knowledgeable rasikas around me, whom I looked up, showered on these artistes, made sure that I continued listening to them and even though it took me years, I am glad to say to I have evolved enough as a rasika to appreciate SSI and MDR.
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Suji Ram
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kadambam
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It depends on the artist. The responsibility lies with the artist to lead the rasikas in a specific direction that will reflect the artist's individuality. Would all rasikas follow the path? Not neccessarily...Suji Ram wrote:same with me...though it took me years, I am glad to say to I have evolved enough as a rasika to appreciate SSI and MDR.
Another point to ponder is
How do artists judge what the rasikas expect. Do they wonder if we rasikas understand all the intricacies of the art?
The individual traits in an artist takes time to show up. Till then, the artist should be able to cater to a hetrogenous rasika base, but work towards building the individualities in the music.
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sampoorna
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- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 15:28
Namaskaram,
I am going to try sort out SR's question (in my own mind) by posting some thoughts ..... they may not answer the question which is quite an interesting one.
As VK and others have pointed out, it takes years of effort to develop enough knowledge to appreciate the details of CM. It is the same case with any other art form, math, science, or engineering. While in science or engineering there may be (not always - quantum physics) a material way of judging the work (e.g., is it strong enough to withstand a test), it is not the same with the arts. Given that two artists are techincally correct and have the same depth, there is no quantifiable way of measuring their performance. So the judges have to rely on something intangible in addition to the correctness. The technical correctness and depth are things decided by the CM community and hence can be quantified. This is where the "years of effort" come into play to be able to really "hear" and "appreciate" the art form. The intangible component - we cannot figure how the judges do it just because it is intangible
. However, the intangible beauty of MSS's music was recognized by so many. That may be where bhavam, bhakti, etc., come about. But again, if someone's music is very good but their music has no exposure then there is no way of 'so many people' recognizing the intangible.
I am sure that others in this forum, much more knowledgeable than me, will be able to say this in a much better way.
My question is:
To what extent is classification, categorization, calculation, etc. (i.e., that which characterizes technical depth and that which is decided by the community) be held over the intangible? Should it be ok to just enjoy without judging?
Regards,
Sampoorna.
I am going to try sort out SR's question (in my own mind) by posting some thoughts ..... they may not answer the question which is quite an interesting one.
As VK and others have pointed out, it takes years of effort to develop enough knowledge to appreciate the details of CM. It is the same case with any other art form, math, science, or engineering. While in science or engineering there may be (not always - quantum physics) a material way of judging the work (e.g., is it strong enough to withstand a test), it is not the same with the arts. Given that two artists are techincally correct and have the same depth, there is no quantifiable way of measuring their performance. So the judges have to rely on something intangible in addition to the correctness. The technical correctness and depth are things decided by the CM community and hence can be quantified. This is where the "years of effort" come into play to be able to really "hear" and "appreciate" the art form. The intangible component - we cannot figure how the judges do it just because it is intangible
. However, the intangible beauty of MSS's music was recognized by so many. That may be where bhavam, bhakti, etc., come about. But again, if someone's music is very good but their music has no exposure then there is no way of 'so many people' recognizing the intangible.I am sure that others in this forum, much more knowledgeable than me, will be able to say this in a much better way.
My question is:
To what extent is classification, categorization, calculation, etc. (i.e., that which characterizes technical depth and that which is decided by the community) be held over the intangible? Should it be ok to just enjoy without judging?
Regards,
Sampoorna.
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vasanthakokilam
- Posts: 10958
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
Though I consider Kant's definition of beauty ( and arts appreciation in general ) as a common sense definition, it is quite complete..
We need all three items:
1) Inherent beauty ( or artfulness )
2) Opinions of the beholder - There is some rationality to it, and some commonality to be found among the various beholders. So this also includes the collective opinion, both informed and uninformed opinions.
3) Current frame of mind of the an individual beholder - Highly subjective and variable - Individualistic
The statement "Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder" leaves everything to the beholder and so it addresses only 2 and 3. But we have to grant, or atleast believe, that there is inherent beauty in the art itself, irrespective of the beholder's opinion and frame of mind.
The reputation of the artist has the important effect of reinforcing item 2. Here is where a whole lot of things count: Guru-Shishya parampara, the history of the specific instrument one is playing like the history about that specific violin in the experiment, one's life time of work, hearsay, rumors, good press, bad press etc.
In this experiment, they have removed item 2 as much as possible in the sense there is no 'accumulated' opinion that the fans can tap into to decide whether they want to stop by and listen. Meaning, is it worth their while to stop and listen.
But what you can not remove from item 2 is the informed opinion of some rasikas. If they hear something good, they immediately recognize item 1 aspects. Because they have prior exposure to the music. The rasika who had taken violin lessons and who listens to Classical Music instantly recognized the inherent beauty and stayed on to listen. Or in some cases, the inherent beauty is so universal, it is instantly agreeable to a lot of people. This experiment shows that that piece of music plus the performer did not bring out any such universal instantly attractive music. ( That is what I am quite surprised about ).
Of course, the experimenters could not do anything about item 3. In their morning hour rush, people's frame of reference is somewhere else and not on music enjoyment.
We need all three items:
1) Inherent beauty ( or artfulness )
2) Opinions of the beholder - There is some rationality to it, and some commonality to be found among the various beholders. So this also includes the collective opinion, both informed and uninformed opinions.
3) Current frame of mind of the an individual beholder - Highly subjective and variable - Individualistic
The statement "Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder" leaves everything to the beholder and so it addresses only 2 and 3. But we have to grant, or atleast believe, that there is inherent beauty in the art itself, irrespective of the beholder's opinion and frame of mind.
The reputation of the artist has the important effect of reinforcing item 2. Here is where a whole lot of things count: Guru-Shishya parampara, the history of the specific instrument one is playing like the history about that specific violin in the experiment, one's life time of work, hearsay, rumors, good press, bad press etc.
In this experiment, they have removed item 2 as much as possible in the sense there is no 'accumulated' opinion that the fans can tap into to decide whether they want to stop by and listen. Meaning, is it worth their while to stop and listen.
But what you can not remove from item 2 is the informed opinion of some rasikas. If they hear something good, they immediately recognize item 1 aspects. Because they have prior exposure to the music. The rasika who had taken violin lessons and who listens to Classical Music instantly recognized the inherent beauty and stayed on to listen. Or in some cases, the inherent beauty is so universal, it is instantly agreeable to a lot of people. This experiment shows that that piece of music plus the performer did not bring out any such universal instantly attractive music. ( That is what I am quite surprised about ).
Of course, the experimenters could not do anything about item 3. In their morning hour rush, people's frame of reference is somewhere else and not on music enjoyment.
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cacm
- Posts: 2212
- Joined: 08 Apr 2010, 00:07
Dear Sampoorna,
Let me make an attempt- I am a scientist by trade but have been listening to CM for over 50 years & have learnt vocal, flute & Mridangam enough to know that I am better off as a listener-. I have intensely interacted with almost all the great musicians from 1950-'75. This is by way of background so you can interpret what I write better & not for my own publicity..... vkv
2) Consequently THERE IS NO SINGLE criterion or formula.
3) In our music EMPATHY in my opinion is the key. When you listen to a MSS OR MMI they create the illusion that they are directly singing to you personally tho' you are literally one in the audience of over thousand in the case of MSS for example. This is best illustrated by an example Cleveland Sundaram gave about MMI: In the poorvikalyani kriti: Indaparamuham in the place "NEE ORU SILAYOH" he pointed out that LGJ just stopped playing & laid the violin down. Along with the entire audience he became part of the ENTIRE audience observing MMI conversing & appealing to GOD & I cannot describe the emotions even today thru' Language. The perfect understanding of the role of an accompanist by LGJ ELEVATED THE WHOLE EXPERIENCE TO STRATOSPHERIC LEVELS. Mahatma Gandhi himself commented that when MSS sings a Bhajan she is just not singing.(paraphrased): Her merger & total involvement makes it sublime: you can see it & feel it!
4) THE BEAUTY of our music is so VAST LIKE HINDUISM it is capable of appreciation at VARIOUS LEVELS & NO ONE LEVEL IS SUPERIOR TO ANOTHER.
In short the longer one gets involved the deeper this mystery becomes! The great thing is the ELEVATION in spirirt & understanding only keeps growing with no end in sight!.....I hope I made at least some sense. vkv
.
Let me make an attempt- I am a scientist by trade but have been listening to CM for over 50 years & have learnt vocal, flute & Mridangam enough to know that I am better off as a listener-. I have intensely interacted with almost all the great musicians from 1950-'75. This is by way of background so you can interpret what I write better & not for my own publicity..... vkv
1) When I was seriously involved in learning & lessons I found when I attended any concert I was focussing more on the MISTAKES that were made in the concert. Consequently I DECIDED TO TAKE THE BEST AT ANY MOMENT- it could be the voice & the technical perfection at that moment, The Composition( which I feel is the life saver because EVERY GREAT ARTIST I had talked to has always told me that they are trying their BEST to AT LEAST ONCE render the composition as the COMPOSER intended), the interesting stimulation a great accompanist like LJG or PALANI could evoke to make the overall effect supreme, and in certain instances like Alathoor Bros, PMI the fantastic Kanakku & Laya aspects they can evoke,My question is:
To what extent is classification, categorization, calculation, etc. (i.e., that which characterizes technical depth and that which is decided by the community) be held over the intangible? Should it be ok to just enjoy without judging?
Regards,
Sampoorna.
2) Consequently THERE IS NO SINGLE criterion or formula.
3) In our music EMPATHY in my opinion is the key. When you listen to a MSS OR MMI they create the illusion that they are directly singing to you personally tho' you are literally one in the audience of over thousand in the case of MSS for example. This is best illustrated by an example Cleveland Sundaram gave about MMI: In the poorvikalyani kriti: Indaparamuham in the place "NEE ORU SILAYOH" he pointed out that LGJ just stopped playing & laid the violin down. Along with the entire audience he became part of the ENTIRE audience observing MMI conversing & appealing to GOD & I cannot describe the emotions even today thru' Language. The perfect understanding of the role of an accompanist by LGJ ELEVATED THE WHOLE EXPERIENCE TO STRATOSPHERIC LEVELS. Mahatma Gandhi himself commented that when MSS sings a Bhajan she is just not singing.(paraphrased): Her merger & total involvement makes it sublime: you can see it & feel it!
4) THE BEAUTY of our music is so VAST LIKE HINDUISM it is capable of appreciation at VARIOUS LEVELS & NO ONE LEVEL IS SUPERIOR TO ANOTHER.
In short the longer one gets involved the deeper this mystery becomes! The great thing is the ELEVATION in spirirt & understanding only keeps growing with no end in sight!.....I hope I made at least some sense. vkv
.
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rajumds
- Posts: 715
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 11:16
Steering the discussion to different track ..
What is the price we are paying for this fast paced goal oriented way of life?
What are we missing in the journey where arriving becomes more important and the pleasure of the journey is lost ?
Hypthetically if you happen to listen to a top class rendering in a railway station , will you ( can you afford to)
forget your work , listen for say an hour and go ?
What is the price we are paying for this fast paced goal oriented way of life?
What are we missing in the journey where arriving becomes more important and the pleasure of the journey is lost ?
Hypthetically if you happen to listen to a top class rendering in a railway station , will you ( can you afford to)
forget your work , listen for say an hour and go ?
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knandago2001
- Posts: 645
- Joined: 05 Sep 2006, 10:09
Leisure - W. H. Davies
What is this life if, full of care,
We have no time to stand and stare?
No time to stand beneath the boughs,
And stare as long as sheep and cows:
No time to see, when woods we pass,
Where squirrels hide their nuts in grass:
No time to see, in broad daylight,
Streams full of stars, like skies at night:
No time to turn at Beauty's glance,
And watch her feet, how they can dance:
No time to wait till her mouth can
Enrich that smile her eyes began?
A poor life this if, full of care,
We have no time to stand and stare.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/arts/poetryplease.shtml
What is this life if, full of care,
We have no time to stand and stare?
No time to stand beneath the boughs,
And stare as long as sheep and cows:
No time to see, when woods we pass,
Where squirrels hide their nuts in grass:
No time to see, in broad daylight,
Streams full of stars, like skies at night:
No time to turn at Beauty's glance,
And watch her feet, how they can dance:
No time to wait till her mouth can
Enrich that smile her eyes began?
A poor life this if, full of care,
We have no time to stand and stare.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/arts/poetryplease.shtml
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V_ANNASAMY
- Posts: 65
- Joined: 18 Aug 2006, 13:07
My thoughts go like this (of course a poetry)
- KEYED DOLL -
I haven't recently seen NATURE around.
How does it really sound?
I may blame time paucity.
Mechanically moving from village to city.
It offers much and vast;
Literally at no cost.
Once enjoyed every bit,
When I was young and fit.
Where do I go so fast?
Without relishing greenery feast?
What will I actually achieve?
Only as a 'Hard worker' when I leave?
When asked by Nature,
I said it's my NATURE
- V.Annasamy -
hope, you would like it.
- KEYED DOLL -
I haven't recently seen NATURE around.
How does it really sound?
I may blame time paucity.
Mechanically moving from village to city.
It offers much and vast;
Literally at no cost.
Once enjoyed every bit,
When I was young and fit.
Where do I go so fast?
Without relishing greenery feast?
What will I actually achieve?
Only as a 'Hard worker' when I leave?
When asked by Nature,
I said it's my NATURE
- V.Annasamy -
hope, you would like it.
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ragam-talam
- Posts: 1896
- Joined: 28 Sep 2006, 02:15
Well, it's all fine to denounce the rat race and fast pace of life. But it's the toil of so many (in factory floors, farms, textile mills, etc etc) that provides us with the material comforts we take for granted. How many of us are prepared to forego electricity, automobiles, clothes, running water, etc and go back to a rustic way of life?
The trick seems to be not to run away from the market place of life. As Krishna says in the Gita, the yogi is one who can be detached in the midst of it all. This is the the art of doing thru non-doing, as the Zen people describe it. Then every moment becomes a celebration, a song - so we can still listen to the lovely rendering at the railway station for a few minutes, then go to work humming it in our hearts.
The trick seems to be not to run away from the market place of life. As Krishna says in the Gita, the yogi is one who can be detached in the midst of it all. This is the the art of doing thru non-doing, as the Zen people describe it. Then every moment becomes a celebration, a song - so we can still listen to the lovely rendering at the railway station for a few minutes, then go to work humming it in our hearts.
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Nick H
- Posts: 9472
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
Fascinating experiment, article and responses.
I was very moved to know that, in that crowd, it was the children who were attracted to the music. It made me wonder at people who are so anxious to sensitise their children to music! Those children needed no deep education in classical music, or weekly reading of critical opinion, to influence their interest. It is a pit that the article did not feature more interviews with this group, which it admits, was the one that showed the most interest.
I think Sawlady, though, has a point: the performance has to be appropriate for the crowd and the circumstances. A simple but obvious example is that an ever changing crowd is not going to appreciate the slow progression in a composition. There is a joke, which I regret I do not recall, but it has to do with a lifeguard on the beach punching drowning people in the head: the punch (oh dear, sorry) -line is, "You have to get their attention before you can rescue them".
I can understand the ShoeShine woman too; there is an appropriate time and place, and music, however beautiful, at the wrong time, can be simply a nuisance. It is easy to say that I can ask for the film music being played in a restaurant to be turned down so I can talk with my friends, but if it classical, I can ask too, as I am there to eat and talk, and music I really enjoy may be an even greater distraction! I don't go to the concert hall to chat with my friends (and I wish other people would stop doing so) and I don't go to the hotel to listen to music.
Certainly I've encountered enough musicians on the London trains whose modus operandi is that you should pay them to go away --- but I have also encountered those who do make a real improvement to commuting in London; not a particularly pleasant passtime on the best of days. One may not, however, have the time to stop and listen.
I was very moved to know that, in that crowd, it was the children who were attracted to the music. It made me wonder at people who are so anxious to sensitise their children to music! Those children needed no deep education in classical music, or weekly reading of critical opinion, to influence their interest. It is a pit that the article did not feature more interviews with this group, which it admits, was the one that showed the most interest.
I think Sawlady, though, has a point: the performance has to be appropriate for the crowd and the circumstances. A simple but obvious example is that an ever changing crowd is not going to appreciate the slow progression in a composition. There is a joke, which I regret I do not recall, but it has to do with a lifeguard on the beach punching drowning people in the head: the punch (oh dear, sorry) -line is, "You have to get their attention before you can rescue them".
I can understand the ShoeShine woman too; there is an appropriate time and place, and music, however beautiful, at the wrong time, can be simply a nuisance. It is easy to say that I can ask for the film music being played in a restaurant to be turned down so I can talk with my friends, but if it classical, I can ask too, as I am there to eat and talk, and music I really enjoy may be an even greater distraction! I don't go to the concert hall to chat with my friends (and I wish other people would stop doing so) and I don't go to the hotel to listen to music.
Certainly I've encountered enough musicians on the London trains whose modus operandi is that you should pay them to go away --- but I have also encountered those who do make a real improvement to commuting in London; not a particularly pleasant passtime on the best of days. One may not, however, have the time to stop and listen.
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rajumds
- Posts: 715
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 11:16
There is nothing wrong in hard work or toil, in fact every one must, if he has to achieve something. It is the obssesion with the destination which prevents you from enjoying the journey.Well, it's all fine to denounce the rat race and fast pace of life. But it's the toil of so many (in factory floors, farms, textile mills, etc etc) that provides us with the material comforts we take for granted. How many of us are prepared to forego electricity, automobiles, clothes, running water, etc and go back to a rustic way of life?
For many even a morning walk is a work to be completed.. reach home , have bath ,breakfast, leave for work ... and in the process you lose the joy of a morning walk.. the birds chirping, the slowly rsing sun, the cool freshness of the morning air...
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rshankar
- Posts: 13754
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:26
Nandagopal,
Your poem brought back memories of a hilarious poem in hindi (I don't recall all of) that went something like:
is dauDh dUp mein kyA rakkhA, ArAm karO, ArAm karO
ArAm zindgI kI kunjI hai, is sE na tapEdik hOtI hai
ArAm sudhA ka Ek ras tan kA dublApan khOtI hai |
ArAm Sabd mein 'rAm' chipA jO bhav-bandhan kO khOtA hai
ArAm Sabd kA gnyAtA tO virlA hI yOgI banjAtA hai ||
Ravi
Your poem brought back memories of a hilarious poem in hindi (I don't recall all of) that went something like:
is dauDh dUp mein kyA rakkhA, ArAm karO, ArAm karO
ArAm zindgI kI kunjI hai, is sE na tapEdik hOtI hai
ArAm sudhA ka Ek ras tan kA dublApan khOtI hai |
ArAm Sabd mein 'rAm' chipA jO bhav-bandhan kO khOtA hai
ArAm Sabd kA gnyAtA tO virlA hI yOgI banjAtA hai ||
Ravi
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knandago2001
- Posts: 645
- Joined: 05 Sep 2006, 10:09
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vasanthakokilam
- Posts: 10958
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
Here is a video which provides a different perspective than the classical music experiment.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X68eo8M2pVg
Here also the reactions of the various passengers are worth watching for. Here, majority seems to enjoy it and is even more significant considering this happened in ( the culturally snooty ) Paris.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X68eo8M2pVg
Here also the reactions of the various passengers are worth watching for. Here, majority seems to enjoy it and is even more significant considering this happened in ( the culturally snooty ) Paris.
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ganesh_mourthy
- Posts: 1380
- Joined: 02 Sep 2007, 23:08
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vgvindan
- Posts: 1430
- Joined: 13 Aug 2006, 10:51
Then I was serving in Delhi. A co-worker in the office was staying Jamuna-par (other bank of Jamuna) and used to commute daily by bus. He had a son who was also employed somewhere in Delhi and he (son) used to commute by MC and used to leave earlier than the father.
One day when my friend was coming by bus, he saw a traffic jam near Red Fort and as he was getting late to office, he simply waited in the bus cursing the traffic conditions in Delhi.
On reaching office, he received a call stating that his son had met with an accident and that he had been rushed to hospital. He immediately rushed to hospital only to find him dead. The traffic jam near Red Fort was due to the accident - now he cursed himself more because, he did not get down from the bus. Well the moral of the story is when you are rushing in the morning with a particular schedule before you, would you stop enroute for hearing music? You may, at best halt for a moment.
If the exercise had been conducted in a park or some other place where people come to relax, then the amount of interest in music among general public could have been properly gauged. Music, no matter how good, cannot over-ride one's duty. Music may be profession for the musician, but a hobby or relaxation for a rasika.
One day when my friend was coming by bus, he saw a traffic jam near Red Fort and as he was getting late to office, he simply waited in the bus cursing the traffic conditions in Delhi.
On reaching office, he received a call stating that his son had met with an accident and that he had been rushed to hospital. He immediately rushed to hospital only to find him dead. The traffic jam near Red Fort was due to the accident - now he cursed himself more because, he did not get down from the bus. Well the moral of the story is when you are rushing in the morning with a particular schedule before you, would you stop enroute for hearing music? You may, at best halt for a moment.
If the exercise had been conducted in a park or some other place where people come to relax, then the amount of interest in music among general public could have been properly gauged. Music, no matter how good, cannot over-ride one's duty. Music may be profession for the musician, but a hobby or relaxation for a rasika.
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gobilalitha
- Posts: 2056
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 07:12
Since the thread is setting of tangentially from the subject it started witrh. i am narrating this story.ab out 20 years ago when cds were not in use, the cassettes were the source for hearing music.those were the days when eligible bachelors used to be engaged in "girl seeing rituals", in quest of life partners. the girl's parents would be full of tension till the boy said "pidichirukku"(i like), a girl's father learning that the boys parents were strict followers of sakunams set a nadaswaram cassette playing anandam anandam to be switched on as soon as the party entered the hall, mean while, amischievous boy without the knowledge of the girl's father changed the side of the cassette. as soon as the boys party arrived, the cassette player was switched on . To the horror of all the people assembled the song that came out was andakana doodariki kinchittum daya vila by the legendary MLV., the boy came to the rescue of the girls parents saying I am a great fan of MLV and I particularly like this song very much. then what else + dumdum!