I'm sure this is discussed before. Can anyone point to me the exact technical difference between a pada and a jAvaLi?
-Ramakriya
Difference between a Padam and a Javali
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rshankar
- Posts: 13754
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:26
Ramakriya,
This is how I look at them:
Musical Contenl:
padam
A padam is a musical masterpiece. It is said that learning/rendering a padam with all the sangatIs and in the slow pace of a traditional padam is a challenge for any musician and generally offers a complete picture of the rAga the padam was/is composed in. And that losing these from the repertoire will truly be a musical loss because of the wealth of rAga bhAva and rAga lakSaNa in these compositions.
jAvaLI
Not as musically complex, and certainly nowhere near a padam in it's ability to showcase the rAga. jAvaLIs are usually much shorter and faster paced.
Lyrical Content:
padam
These compositions in their traditional avtAr were indubitably erotic. There is no getting away from that. However, the language these erotic thoughts were couched in was usually of high literary standards, and by a streeeetch of logic, we could assume that they represented the intense longing of the jIvAtmA for the paramAtmA couched in terms and feelings more in-tune with the common man's (pAmara jana) understanding.
Now-a-days, at least in a dance mArgam, 'padams' (post varNam pieces) usually are what I would call kIrtanas - like basO mErE nainan mE, or a small composition that allows for sancArIs, and is relatively slow paced is used. Of course, given the average age of the girls at their arangERRam these days, I'd rather it was something like this, rather than, nETrandi nErattilE, or yArukkAginum bhayamA, or any of kSEtragnyA's or muvvagOpAlA's poems....
jAvaLI
Even the language of the jAvaLI conspires against it. The coarser, and at times, frankly lewd language, combined with the very earthy sentiments expressed make it hard to ascribe any lofty ideals to this genre of compositions. An example is the one that Nandagopal gave us a link to: SivadIkSA - in that jaVAli, the heroine is rebuffing the advances of a vashNavaite because she is under the tutelage of Saivaites - but with each verse, the descriptions of the liberties the man is taking with her clearly indicate that her attempt at rebuffing him is merely a pretence. It is probably possible to say that the vaishNavaite was none other than vishNu himself, and the whole composition is nothing but an attempt to poke fun at the artificial division between Saivaites and vaishNavaites, but I do not buy that at all. I am sure every one is aware how elegantly purandara dAsa preached that very same philosophy with just one phrase (in candracUDa - he ends by referring to Siva as 'parama vaishNavanu nInE'). However, jAvaLIs are mercifully short and do not have many sangatIs to extend the performer and listener's mortification.
A Lighter Aside
I am struck by the fact that these compositions in which a heroine is expressing her love in such earthy, graphic, and lewdly descriptive terms are all composed by men. Wonder if these guys predated Kinsey!
Hopefully, some dancer or musician (vidyArthI jI/Suryaprakash jI) will oblige with a more detailed separation of these entities.
This is how I look at them:
Musical Contenl:
padam
A padam is a musical masterpiece. It is said that learning/rendering a padam with all the sangatIs and in the slow pace of a traditional padam is a challenge for any musician and generally offers a complete picture of the rAga the padam was/is composed in. And that losing these from the repertoire will truly be a musical loss because of the wealth of rAga bhAva and rAga lakSaNa in these compositions.
jAvaLI
Not as musically complex, and certainly nowhere near a padam in it's ability to showcase the rAga. jAvaLIs are usually much shorter and faster paced.
Lyrical Content:
padam
These compositions in their traditional avtAr were indubitably erotic. There is no getting away from that. However, the language these erotic thoughts were couched in was usually of high literary standards, and by a streeeetch of logic, we could assume that they represented the intense longing of the jIvAtmA for the paramAtmA couched in terms and feelings more in-tune with the common man's (pAmara jana) understanding.
Now-a-days, at least in a dance mArgam, 'padams' (post varNam pieces) usually are what I would call kIrtanas - like basO mErE nainan mE, or a small composition that allows for sancArIs, and is relatively slow paced is used. Of course, given the average age of the girls at their arangERRam these days, I'd rather it was something like this, rather than, nETrandi nErattilE, or yArukkAginum bhayamA, or any of kSEtragnyA's or muvvagOpAlA's poems....
jAvaLI
Even the language of the jAvaLI conspires against it. The coarser, and at times, frankly lewd language, combined with the very earthy sentiments expressed make it hard to ascribe any lofty ideals to this genre of compositions. An example is the one that Nandagopal gave us a link to: SivadIkSA - in that jaVAli, the heroine is rebuffing the advances of a vashNavaite because she is under the tutelage of Saivaites - but with each verse, the descriptions of the liberties the man is taking with her clearly indicate that her attempt at rebuffing him is merely a pretence. It is probably possible to say that the vaishNavaite was none other than vishNu himself, and the whole composition is nothing but an attempt to poke fun at the artificial division between Saivaites and vaishNavaites, but I do not buy that at all. I am sure every one is aware how elegantly purandara dAsa preached that very same philosophy with just one phrase (in candracUDa - he ends by referring to Siva as 'parama vaishNavanu nInE'). However, jAvaLIs are mercifully short and do not have many sangatIs to extend the performer and listener's mortification.
A Lighter Aside
I am struck by the fact that these compositions in which a heroine is expressing her love in such earthy, graphic, and lewdly descriptive terms are all composed by men. Wonder if these guys predated Kinsey!
Hopefully, some dancer or musician (vidyArthI jI/Suryaprakash jI) will oblige with a more detailed separation of these entities.
Last edited by rshankar on 14 Dec 2007, 20:02, edited 1 time in total.
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cmlover
- Posts: 11498
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36
Shankar
Just a nagging question! Are there original mudras or abhinaya in Bharata (ancient classical) for the explicit 'sex acts' depicted in some of the padams? I have seen dancers (I guess innovate) imaginatively abhinaya some of which are downright distasteful. But then the compositions are ancient and one wonders how they were performed in those times!
Just a nagging question! Are there original mudras or abhinaya in Bharata (ancient classical) for the explicit 'sex acts' depicted in some of the padams? I have seen dancers (I guess innovate) imaginatively abhinaya some of which are downright distasteful. But then the compositions are ancient and one wonders how they were performed in those times!
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ramakriya
- Posts: 1876
- Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 02:05
Thanks Meena, and RShankar for that detaied explanation.
Even though purandara dAsa's compositions are in general called padas, I found one which would qualify to be a 'padam' - a SrngAra pada. And that's what promted me to ask this question.
Here is the pada I am talking about:
ತಂಗಾಳಿ ವಶವಲ್ಲವೇ ರಾಗ:ಶಂಕರಾಭರಣ ತಾಳ: ಅಟ
ತಂಗಾಳಿ ವಶವಲ್ಲವೇ ||ಪಲ್ಲವಿ||
ಅಂಗದೊಳಗೆ ಬೆಳದಿಂಗಳು ತುಂಬಿತು ||ಅ.ಪ||
ಚಂದನದಿಂದ ಕುಚಂಗಳ ತವಿಸಲು ಇಂದುಕಿರಣ ಬಂದು ಕಂದಿಸಲು
ಮಂದ ಮಾರುತದಲಿ ನಿಂದಿರಲಾರೆನೇ ಹೊಂದಿದ ತಾಪವು ಹೋಹುದೇನೆ ಹೆಣ್ಣೇ ||1||
ಬಂಗಾರವೊಡಲಿಗೆ ಭಾರವಾಗಿದೆಯೇ ಶೃಂಗರಿಸಿಕೊಳ ಸೇರಲಿಲ್ಲ
ಅಂಗಜ ಶರತಾಪ ತಾಳಲಾರೆ ನಾನು ಉಂಗುರವು ನಿನಗೆ ಉಚಿತವೇನೇ ಹೆಣ್ಣೇ ||2||
ಮುನ್ನ ಪುರಂದರ ವಿಠಲರಾಯ ಕೂಡಿ ಇನ್ನೂ ಬಾರೆಂದರೆ ಬಾರನೇಕೆ
ಅನ್ನ ಪಾನ ರುಚಿಯಾಗಿ ತೋರಲಿಲ್ಲ ನಿನ್ನಾಣೆ ಕಣ್ಣಿಗೆ ನಿದ್ರೆ ಬಾರದು ಹೆಣ್ಣೇ ||3||
I can't quite translate this one - for I am no poet. But others with knowledge of Kannada, and more poetic sense (arasi?) can sure do it
. Here is a transliterated version:
tangALi vaSavallavE rAga:SankarAbharaNam tALa: aTa
tangALi vaSavallavE||pa||
angadoLage beLa- dingaLu tumbitu||a.pa||
candanadinda kucangaLa tavisalu indukiraNa bandu kandisalu
manda mArutadali nindiralArenE hondida tApavu hOhudEne heNNE||1||
bangAravoDalige bhAravAgideyE Srngarisi koLa sEralilla
angaja SaratApa tALalAre nAnu unguravu ninage ucitavEnE heNNE||2||
munna purandara viThalarAya kUDi innU bArendare bAranEke
anna pAna ruciyAgi tOralilla ninnANe kaNNige nidre bAradu heNNE||3||
BTW, this is added to the rasika wiki: http://rasikas.org/wiki/tangali-vashavallave
And again, as RShankar observes, the composer is a man!
-Ramakriya
Even though purandara dAsa's compositions are in general called padas, I found one which would qualify to be a 'padam' - a SrngAra pada. And that's what promted me to ask this question.
Here is the pada I am talking about:
ತಂಗಾಳಿ ವಶವಲ್ಲವೇ ರಾಗ:ಶಂಕರಾಭರಣ ತಾಳ: ಅಟ
ತಂಗಾಳಿ ವಶವಲ್ಲವೇ ||ಪಲ್ಲವಿ||
ಅಂಗದೊಳಗೆ ಬೆಳದಿಂಗಳು ತುಂಬಿತು ||ಅ.ಪ||
ಚಂದನದಿಂದ ಕುಚಂಗಳ ತವಿಸಲು ಇಂದುಕಿರಣ ಬಂದು ಕಂದಿಸಲು
ಮಂದ ಮಾರುತದಲಿ ನಿಂದಿರಲಾರೆನೇ ಹೊಂದಿದ ತಾಪವು ಹೋಹುದೇನೆ ಹೆಣ್ಣೇ ||1||
ಬಂಗಾರವೊಡಲಿಗೆ ಭಾರವಾಗಿದೆಯೇ ಶೃಂಗರಿಸಿಕೊಳ ಸೇರಲಿಲ್ಲ
ಅಂಗಜ ಶರತಾಪ ತಾಳಲಾರೆ ನಾನು ಉಂಗುರವು ನಿನಗೆ ಉಚಿತವೇನೇ ಹೆಣ್ಣೇ ||2||
ಮುನ್ನ ಪುರಂದರ ವಿಠಲರಾಯ ಕೂಡಿ ಇನ್ನೂ ಬಾರೆಂದರೆ ಬಾರನೇಕೆ
ಅನ್ನ ಪಾನ ರುಚಿಯಾಗಿ ತೋರಲಿಲ್ಲ ನಿನ್ನಾಣೆ ಕಣ್ಣಿಗೆ ನಿದ್ರೆ ಬಾರದು ಹೆಣ್ಣೇ ||3||
I can't quite translate this one - for I am no poet. But others with knowledge of Kannada, and more poetic sense (arasi?) can sure do it
. Here is a transliterated version:tangALi vaSavallavE rAga:SankarAbharaNam tALa: aTa
tangALi vaSavallavE||pa||
angadoLage beLa- dingaLu tumbitu||a.pa||
candanadinda kucangaLa tavisalu indukiraNa bandu kandisalu
manda mArutadali nindiralArenE hondida tApavu hOhudEne heNNE||1||
bangAravoDalige bhAravAgideyE Srngarisi koLa sEralilla
angaja SaratApa tALalAre nAnu unguravu ninage ucitavEnE heNNE||2||
munna purandara viThalarAya kUDi innU bArendare bAranEke
anna pAna ruciyAgi tOralilla ninnANe kaNNige nidre bAradu heNNE||3||
BTW, this is added to the rasika wiki: http://rasikas.org/wiki/tangali-vashavallave
And again, as RShankar observes, the composer is a man!
-Ramakriya
Last edited by ramakriya on 14 Dec 2007, 23:19, edited 1 time in total.
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cmlover
- Posts: 11498
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36
http://www.nadanam.com/bharatnatyam/b_padam.htm
(does not add anything more than what Shankar has described)
(does not add anything more than what Shankar has described)
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vasanthakokilam
- Posts: 10956
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
In another thread, when I was poking at archive.org for the old sangeetham.com links, found one related to this discussion...A short write up on Javali by
Sanjay Subrahmanyan .
http://web.archive.org/web/200404231524 ... avali.php3
Sanjay Subrahmanyan .
http://web.archive.org/web/200404231524 ... avali.php3