Prof Sri Trs Lec-dem 'status Of Telugu As A Language Employe

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 18 Nov 2007, 00:28

Today I attended the lecture of Prof Sri TRS on 'Status of Telugu as a language employed in CM'

The following points were brought out (my observations are given in brackets under each) -

(1) Of all the South Indian Languages, Telugu is most suitable for music because most of the
words end with a vowel facilitating musical rendering. He gave the example of 'uNDEdi
rAmuDokaDu' - which in Tamil would be rendered as 'iruppadu rAman oruvan - the ending is a
consonant

(I was left wondering whether if it is written in Tamil as 'iruppadu rAman oruvanE' will it not be
suitable for music.)

(2) Even those who had Tamil as mother tongue had composed songs in Telugu - He cited the
example of Patnam Subramania Iyer and Syama Sastry.

(Are there are not composers like Gopalakrishna Bharathi, Arunachala Kavi Rayar, Muthu
Thandavar etc who wrote in Tamil? How come MD wrote in Sanskrit such wonderful Kritis?
Sanskrit is considered a very strict language in terms of grammar. If Sanskrit which is purely a
literaly language could become malleable in the hands of MD, how come other languages which
are both literary and colloquial are less suited? What about the Kritis of Purandara Dasa? They
are as sweet as as those of Thyagaraja kritis, if not more. If this contention is accepted, then no
Indian language other than Telugu is suitable for musical lyrics.)

(3) Krishna Deva Raya, whose mother tongue was Tulu, wrote a treatise in Telugu on Andal and
it is prescribed as Textbook for Colleges in AP. He also cited the example the treatise on Music
'Sangita Sampradaya Pradarshini' by Subbaraya Dikshitar in Telugu.

(As these treatise are not musical compositions, I was left wondering whether it is his contention
that Telugu is the most suitable language for literature also.)

(4) He said that Telugu has different declension for 'person' - 1st person - 'vADanu'; 2nd person
'vADavu'; 3rd person - vADu'. On the other hand Tamil has no such declension for person. Even
Thyagaraja has not been very particular in his grammatical usage - and therefore, Andhraiites do
not give much credence to his (Thyagaraja) Kritis.

(If it is the contention of the Prof that Sri Thyagaraja should have been more careful to write
grammatically correct lyrics, then his observation would come in the 'DukRnkaraNa' category of
Bhaja Govindam.
Do we follow rules of grammar when we talk to each other? Those who have dwelt in the kRtis of
Thyagaraja would know that most of them are addressed to Lord Rama (many to his own mind)
as if Sri Rama is standing in front of him. It is difficult for people like us to visualise such a
Bhava. In any case, the Prof whose mother tongue is Telugu should know how Telugu is spoken
in Tamil Nadu. The following Sloka from Srimad Bhagavatam - Book One â€“ Discourse V â€“ sage Naradaâ€™s advice to sage Vyasa - is relevant â€“

tadvAgvisargO janatAghaviplavO yasmin
pratiSlOkamabaddhavatyapi |
nAmAnyanantasya yaSOnkitAni yacchRNvanti
gAyanti gRNanti sAdhava: || (11)

That composition which, even if though faulty in diction in every Sloka, if it consists of verses each of which contains the names of the immortal Lord, bearing the impress of His glory, wipes out the sins of the people; it is such composition that pious men love to hear, sing and repeat.)

(5) He cited the example of English language as lingua-franca of literate people in India and said
that, similarly, Telugu is lingua-franca of Music.

(Is it his contention that English is the most suited language to be lingua-franca? I was left
pondering whether we would not have French or Portuguese as lingua-franca had the French or
Portuguese ruled over the whole India.)

(6) He brought out the neravals being done at wrong places - The example cited by him was 'sangIta
jnAnamu' and 'mA jAnaki ceTTa peTTaga'.

(I may point out that 'ceTTa peTTaga' literally means 'pANi grahaNam' and not walking hand-in-
hand.)

(7) He made some observations about the draw-backs of Gurukula system. He said that even if the
Guru taught wrongly, the student cannot question.

(If some Guru teaches wrongly, is it the fault of Guru or the system?)

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 18 Nov 2007, 06:08

vgvindan wrote:Today I attended the lecture of Prof Sri TRS on 'Status of Telugu as a language employed in CM'

.....In any case, the Prof whose mother tongue is Telugu should know how Telugu is spoken
in Tamil Nadu.

Prof. T R Subrahmanyam's mother tongue is Tamil. He spent several years in Andhra and hence speaks fluent Telugu as well.

ANU · Post by **ANU** » 18 Nov 2007, 07:47

A small correction. Prof. TRS's mother tongue is Tamil but he knows Telugu very well and is always particular about proonciation and correctness of meaning when singing the songs. For example, in Pakkala Nilabadi, many singers tend to give a karvai in the charanam and break the line like this: Manasuna dalachi mai.... and then say marachi. Actually, mai marachi is one word. In the same vein, many times, Jaya changes to Ajaya by liniking witht he previous line.

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 18 Nov 2007, 08:17

harimau and ANU,
Thanks for the input. I stand corrected.

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 18 Nov 2007, 09:50

Vgv has covered everything about the lecture. Just 2 more additional points.

# Just like patnam, mysore vAsudevachAryA (MV) whose mother tongue was kannada , decided to compose mostly in telugu . Once when MV was asked the question why not even one in kannada , MV replied "I wanted to follow what my guru did??"

# Prof TRS made a mention that he initially learnt lot of telugu krithis and at some point in his musical career , he hired a telugu tutor and revisited all the krithis and tried to understand the lyrics . Later as time progressed he made a passing mention that he was respected for his telugu pronounciation.

We certainly made a good start in lecdems, lecdems are always tough especially with the advent of internet forums, as lots of information we already know. But Prof TRS has a passion to share , perhaps more and more will come soon.

Karnaticfan · Post by **Karnaticfan** » 07 Dec 2007, 13:12

VGV

This really shows your passion for TyAgaraja Swamy's kritis. I felt that the issue is like a patti mandram (debate) and when you are given a subject, whether it is completely right or not you have to speak in favour of that.

PS : VGV could have chosen a different thread(t) all together.

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 07 Dec 2007, 18:45

Coolkarni,
I am not amused by the word 'paTTi manram'. If lec-dems are only 'paTTi manram', I better not waste my time in such tamAsha.

Karnaticfan,
If you have specific points to make about my comments, please bring them out. Please do not rubbish it as 'passion for Thyagaraja Kritis'. I did not comment for the sake of commenting.

The moderators could have moved my comments to any thread - even now they may do so.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 07 Dec 2007, 19:11

vgvindan wrote:Coolkarni,
I am not amused by the word 'paTTi manram'. If lec-dems are only 'paTTi manram', I better not waste my time in such tamAsha.

Karnaticfan,
If you have specific points to make about my comments, please bring them out. Please do not rubbish it as 'passion for Thyagaraja Kritis'. I did not comment for the sake of commenting.

The moderators could have moved my comments to any thread - even now they may do so.

vgv
are you sure this is addressed to me ?
i cant understand how and where i got into this :rolleyes:

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 07 Dec 2007, 19:24

Coolkarni,
As organiser of these concerts, I sought a clarification about lec-dems - whether they are indeed 'paTTi manrams'. If you feel you are not concerned, kindly pardon me for addressing you.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 07 Dec 2007, 20:11

vgvindan wrote:The moderators could have moved my comments to any thread - even now they may do so.

Separate thread ( this thread ) created and the relevant posts moved to this new thread from the K. Gayathri thread in the Kutcheri Reviews sub-forum.

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 07 Dec 2007, 21:24

PS : VGV could have chosen a different thread(t) all together.

karnaticfan,
Can you kindly clarifiy as to what this 'thread(t)' means?

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 08 Dec 2007, 00:46

Prof TRS is a very learned teacher/performer of CM and he talks with clinical accuracy and not out of any inborn prejudices. These views on the superiority of Telugu in the context of CM were very popular among the stalwarts of yore who held Thyagarja a shade higher than MD in view of the linguistic excellence. Unfortunately yet another language (malayalam) where the vowels are equally or more vibrant and flexible was not given the opportunity to compete. If Thyagaraja was born in Kerala, in fact malayalam would have become the lingua franca of CM. Unfortunately though SvAti was Royalty he did pay scant attention to the vitality of his own language and in lieu focussed on Sanskrit. Also it is indeed a tragedy that KJY focussed his talents on the silver screen rather than on excelling in CM (perhaps if Chembai had lived a few more years

One has got to be a 'vaggeyakara' in addition to being a linguist to craft excellent kritis. Thyagarja was blessed with that inborn talent. P Sivan is equally a genius who did elevate Tamil to that level but mostly through imitation of Thyagaraja. I do see the spark of creativity in our own Ramaraj whose rare-raga kritis with the right svarAkSharas and embellishments are worth being considered by present performers. Of course Ramaraj is versatile in both Tamil and Telugu and I find his Telugu compositions a shade more musical (though I don't understand the meaning) which shows the intrinsic versatility of Telugu in the context of CM. The same is true even among the majestic compositions of GNB and MDR. However HMB has reinvented the adaptability of Kannada for CM though he has been ignored consistently by the 'chennai-trained' performers and let us pray, now that Karnataka is waking up the local talents will rediscover HMB and also JC (their royal genius) with the attention that has been lavished by services through this Forum!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 08 Dec 2007, 03:26

Theories are abound about why Telugu is more suited for CM than other languages : vowel endings, more soft letters etc. which I am not sure if anyone has shown to be true of a statistical analysis of poetry of various languages. VGV's point about MD and Sanskrit is on target as well since many words in MD's sanskrit do not end in vowels.

I think, if I got your drift CML, it may be a case of putting the cart before the horse ( meaning a reversal of cause and effect , such reversals are quite common in folklore ). The fact that Thyagaraja's krithis are in Telugu is what elevated Telugu to be the preeminent language for CM and not the other way around. This is not to take away, and no one will deny, the beauty of Telugu words and the sweet sounding nature of it.

Remember, you heard it here first

: Try to reverse the cause and effect and see if it is more probable than the other way around. In many cases it actually is.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 08 Dec 2007, 04:19

VK
you are spot on!

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 08 Dec 2007, 04:28

yet another point is that sanskrit is not a conversational language. To convey familiiar ideas which Thyagaraja does with ease and elegance one has to go through hoops. Somebody had suggested that MD's kritis are just a mammoth collection of bahuvrihis and tatpuruSha compounds. On thhe other hand malayalam (kannada too?) has the nice flexible grammar Tamil-style as also all the lovely soft sounds. Hence it is history that has elevated Telugu. Perhaps a blessed vaggeyakara in future will restore the balance.

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 08 Dec 2007, 09:18

reversal of cause and effect , such reversals are quite common in folklore

vk,
Isn't our whole philosophical systems based on explaining this 'effect' and arriving at the 'cause' of the effect? In this case, of course, we had no suitable observational tools (vAcAmagOcara) to intellectually explain our existence and therefore, our forefathers having exhausted all possible methods, have come to the conclusion that ultimately it is 'tattvamasi' - where 'tat' and 'tvam' become one and the same - the cause and effect being same.

However, in the case of Telugu as the language of CM, we do not lack any observational tools. Therefore, as you have rightly said, it is only 'historicity' to say Telugu is more suitable for music. Quoting the very example of TRS of 'uNDEdi rAmuDokaDu' where, the professor had laid emphasis on the ending vowel. I had pointed out that in Tamil also it can be rendered as 'iruppadu rAman oruvanE'.

While the alphabets of any language are static, the words and sentences are what we make.

rajumds · Post by **rajumds** » 08 Dec 2007, 10:14

During his lec dem Sri TRS didn't explain the gramatical or phonetical advantages of telugu. The gist was , like English became the language of communication due British rule (it could have been French if French had rules us) , Telugu became the language of choice because of the patronage it enjoyed during 19 th century. TN was ruled by Telugu speaking rulers and as per TRS even though Sarabhoji Maharaja was from Maharahtra , the offical language in his court was Teleugu.

Add to this the influence Sri Thyagaraja had over later day composers, Telugu became the most prefered language.

TRS menntioned one more fact . Even though SSP is sort of literary work , it was wriiten in Telugu nad hence the preference of Telugu over other languages at that point of time was not limited to kritis alone.

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 08 Dec 2007, 10:21

raj,
TRS did mention about the linguistic advantage of Telugu for CM. I have quoted the kriti example cited by him only - please see my original post. I have contested that.

rajumds · Post by **rajumds** » 08 Dec 2007, 10:34

VGV what I was trying to convey was that other than the oft repeated vowel ending theory , TRS brought out nothing new.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 08 Dec 2007, 10:41

as also all the lovely soft sounds.

CML, I have often heard this about Tamil vs other SI languages and you seem to be saying that as well. I have not done any actual research myself on the relative frequency of the hard sounds in Tamil. Is this a perception based on the overall feeling when someone gets while listening to Tamil Vs other languages. With respect to letters, one third of the consonants belongs to the 'hard' variety ( Vallinam ). Why the disproportionate focus on the one third? Is it the case that in Tamil this one third Vallinam consonants figure a lot more in words compared to other SI languages? I am just curious.

VGV, agreed.

Just a bit of digression: The biggest bang for the buck in terms of reversal of cause and effect is by Einstein on how he got started on his relativity theories.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 08 Dec 2007, 11:01

In my opinion the difficulty is for people who don't speak thamizh or the ones like me who can speak but did not grow in TN to attain fluency. It requires just a little extra effort. There are many artists (non thamizh speakers) who have attained this.
For me, thamizh songs in CM sounds as sweet as telugu and is very suitable for CM.
And I agree with the history part VK mentioned.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 08 Dec 2007, 11:37

I think the difficulty in learning tamizh for non thamizhs is greater than it is for tamizhs to learn other languages. In learning conversational tamizh, this may not be so. Literary and lyrical tamizh do pose a problem (ask the sahityA translators about it!). Not that other languages have the nuances and richness, but they have sister languages similar in words from their own repositories--common sounding words from sanskrit. They enable a familiarity and it is easy to associate and remember the words. tAmizh stands alone, I would think. In tamizh, though some words are familiar to the non speaker ( the sanskrit rooted ones), others are strange sounding to them and difficult.
Suji,
Coming from a non-tamizh speaker, to hear that tamizh is sweet sounding is great. Of course, it is a sweet sounding language!

vageyakara · Post by **vageyakara** » 08 Dec 2007, 15:11

while endorsing , MANY OF OUR forum members' views on the subject, I wish to add mine with all humility.As for me , it was an added advantage to have resided in Andhra Pradesh for nearly 12 years for the sake of employment, It not only helped to improve my working knowledge of Telugu, but also propitiated to enrich my innate desire to compose kritis in that sweet language adopting the legacy of thyagaraja Swamigal.Besides I have the natural flair in my own Mother tongue TAMIL .And that flair provided scope for comparative analysis . Here my point is ,for obtaining prowess in any language , one has to preferentially be good at his own mother tongueSo far as Tamil and Telugu are concerned , they are inseparable SISTERS in asmuch as it relates to Carnatic Music Our beloved CMLover has rightly put for th his opinion.The instinct to co-relate the divine TAMIL-TELUGU bondage has a great role to play with yet another DIVINE ART which is none other than our REVERED CARNATIC MUSIC. !!!
Ramaraj
(isai aDimai)

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 08 Dec 2007, 18:52

May I submit humbly that Telugu is my mother tongue. However, I studied Tamil. I have been practically living with Thyagaraja kritis for the past three years being engaged in word-by-word translation of the kritis and posting these as blogs and sending daily e-mails.

Therefore, I cannot have any prejudice against that (Telugu) language. Telugu and Tamil are like my two eyes.

jhnlasik · Post by **jhnlasik** » 09 Dec 2007, 06:32

in 1987 , Prof. TRS and his student Smt.Radha Venkatachalam made the following report card after analyzing many of the yesteryear musicians. I like to see similar report on the present day artists.

http://attachments.wetpaintserv.us/sGAq ... D%3D922037

http://attachments.wetpaintserv.us/AmOe ... D%3D894606

http://attachments.wetpaintserv.us/QbdW ... D%3D328521

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 09 Dec 2007, 07:44

vgvindan wrote:Coolkarni,
As organiser of these concerts, I sought a clarification about lec-dems - whether they are indeed 'paTTi manrams'. If you feel you are not concerned, kindly pardon me for addressing you.

VGV
I prefer to be treated as a facilitator rather than an organiser !!
In future you have every right to raise the Issues with the speaker , at the Lec Dems.
The other parts from my earlier post, not relevant to your query have been moved to a separate thread .Mods may move the relevant responses too , after I finish with the changes.

As far as your query on patti manram is concerned , I think what karnaticfan meant was that this was a kind of subject when given, there are only two choices and no middle ground.I dont think he was referring to anything else.
But then I see that you are not giving him the benefit of doubt when he speaks of your passion .
So it is appropriate that I withdraw from this thread gracefully.
Thanks.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 09 Dec 2007, 08:02

This is sheer poetry!
What else can I say !

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 09 Dec 2007, 08:43

Cool , the folk (s) hero. He is a continuation of our old tradition of story tellers, a modern day agitator and a salve, such a rare combination! This teller of tales believes in elevating reality by way of myths--no, life stories, and who knows, some day he would be hailed as one of those men who never said nay but threw light into every dark corner of his mind and looked for a positive solution which he shared with his fellow humans.
Shashi, but sunshine:)

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 09 Dec 2007, 17:03

Coolkarni,
I simply don't understand what you want to bring out in this long explanation. I should be dull-witted not to grasp the significance of your points.

I felt that the issue is like a patti mandram (debate) and when you are given a subject, whether it is completely right or not you have to speak in favour of that.

This is what karnaticfan had to say about paTTi manrams. How I wish you had spared a few more words on what he said.

If this is the definition of paTTi manram, I don't want to waste my time and energy on those who speak without conviction.
This is my last post on this subject.

Karnaticfan · Post by **Karnaticfan** » 10 Dec 2007, 09:22

Coolji has read my mind clearly. In this context, defending VGV's views too, I have used the sentence 'it was like a paTTI mandRam'.

VGV - Passion is a word clearly used for absolute attachment with certain thing/subject/person (what ever you call). I have not been rubbish anywhere in the my earler reply. More so, I have been consciously appreciating your translations under TyAgarAja Vaibhavam.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 10 Dec 2007, 09:37

Coming out of retirement
for my favourite definition of passion...

The value of passion ,like fire, is judged by the amount of warmth and light it creates. Fanatics, like forest fires ,burn bright ,but destroy all in their path that is tender and green.
To be useful, fire must be confined. To live passionately, we must develop discipline. To love powerfully, we must forge bonds of commitment.

Passion ..
inseparable from compassion.

Back to retirement ..

Karnaticfan · Post by **Karnaticfan** » 10 Dec 2007, 09:47

Coolji - It was a well disciplined comeback, passionately.

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 10 Dec 2007, 11:20

Passion ..
inseparable from compassion.

neruppendru sonnAl nIradil aNaiyum
nIrendru sonnAL neruppilum vEgum
nAn koNDa neruppu aNaikkindra neruppu
yAr aNaippArO iRaivanin poRuppu

நெருப்பென்று சொன்னால் நீரதில் அணையும்
நீரென்று சொன்னால் நெருப்பிலும் வேகும்
நான் கொண்ட நெருப்பு அணைக்கின்ற நெருப்பு
யார் அணைப்பாரோ இறைவனின் பொறுப்பு

(kaNNa dAsan - avaL oru toDar kadai)

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 10 Dec 2007, 12:58

Bards of Passion and of Mirth,
Ye have left your souls on earth!
Have ye souls in heaven too?
Ode to the fair Maid of the Inn.

John Keats
( I observe that my Knee is healing very quickly today):D

thanjavooran · Post by **thanjavooran** » 14 Dec 2007, 12:15

A rejoinder by shri vijayakumar alathoor of kalavardhani against vgvindan's observation when an extract was sent to him for his perusal is given here as per his request.

Subject: RE: prof TRS' lec dem

Tamil is a great language. There is no doubt about this Probably its only weekness when compared to Telugu is its alphabet which does not designate fully and without ambiguity, the various sounds possible by the human sound system to different letters in the alphabet. Then where is the need for this baseless inferiority complex which, if I am correct is expressed in TRSâ€™ speech ?

Your questions regarding each of TRSâ€™ examples are so full of holes that I am unable to see any matter in it. TRSâ€™ views as seen , are so similar to what he spoke in one of my release functions.that it leads me to strongly suspect that the remarks are based on this speech of TRS. I feel it is a waste of valuable time trying to explain the obvious. I am giving below an alternate way of explaing what I wish to say.

In all my release functions i give a short lecture on some topic connected with the original research I am do ing in Music and related subjects. One such topic I chose for a release function, some time ago, was â€œTelugu Alphabet as related to the human Vocal Systemâ€

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 15 Dec 2007, 22:56

Sorry... I beg to differ,,, vgvindan's comments on the observations at the lec-dem are spot on. Unfortunately it is contrary to "conventional wisdom" which like Goebbel's theorem becomes more conventional the more it is repeated. If we can discuss the observations without discussing the personalities, I think the truth will emerge in a straight forward manner.

Unfortunately KarnaticFan went in the other direction and tried to discuss personalities rather than the observations.

Is it an objective fact that sentences sound nicer when ending in a vowel? I find words ending in "M" and "N" and "L" all equally or more sonorous. So establishing this as some kind of "objective" fact is fallacious. I think "familiairity" is the most important factor in this and no such objective observations can be made.

Thanks for listening.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 15 Dec 2007, 23:28

I agree! It will be nice to carry on this debate purely on a linguistic perspective without personalities. That will permit us to uncover the strength and weakness of the different languages from a purely CM perspective. Italian is considered to be a musical language among the west. In spite of being classical there were no compositions in Greek but operas in Latin which is closer to Italian abound. Do they have a similar linguistic debate in WM ?

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 16 Dec 2007, 07:04

Telugu thetta
Kannada kasthuri
Aravam advanam

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 16 Dec 2007, 07:11

here be trolls?

kmrasika · Post by **kmrasika** » 16 Dec 2007, 09:18

I have heard there are Carnatic Music compositions in a language called "saurAshTra." Has anyone heard or come across these compositions by chance? Where is this region situated geographically?

vageyakara · Post by **vageyakara** » 16 Dec 2007, 10:14

Hallo harimauji,with a pained heart I have to contradict and put forth my opinioin
ARAVAM ADWANNAM IS TOTALLY UNCALLED FOR DERISIVE EXPRESSION ATTRIBUTED TO HAVE BEEN EXPRESSED BY THOSE WHO HAVE NO BASIC KNOWLEDGE OF TAMIL.
I THINK THIS SHOULD BE CHANGED TO "ARAVAM AMRUTHAM", IF AT ALL IT REFERS TO THE DIVINE LANGUAGE TAMIL..i THINK yet ANOTHER PANDORA'S BOX IS IN THE PROCESS OF BEING OPENED.
Ramaraj

thanjavooran · Post by **thanjavooran** » 16 Dec 2007, 10:46

I remember to hv heard TMSoundarajan singing a kriti in sourashtra language in an AIR concert few years back.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 16 Dec 2007, 11:38

I guess I live a sheltered life in a bubble

I did not even know Aravam means Tamil. I take it then it is a slang ( derogatory? ) word. Who uses them?

gobilalitha · Post by **gobilalitha** » 16 Dec 2007, 11:48

I am also extremly anguished at tamil being referredto as adhvaanam . may be out of fun . it is derogatory . i fully endorse vageyakkara's views we fully respect bharathiar 's expression of telugu as sundara telunginile gobilalitha

gobilalitha · Post by **gobilalitha** » 16 Dec 2007, 11:55

km rasika. saurashtra is mainly spoken by weaver community people , most of the saurashtra speaking people are centered round madurai,salem,erode etct here is no such geographic region . the language has no script ,a difficult language in pronunciation gobilalithja

Sam Swaminathan · Post by **Sam Swaminathan** » 16 Dec 2007, 12:31

harimau ......please remember Lakshman Rekha..!!

vageyakara · Post by **vageyakara** » 16 Dec 2007, 15:50

vasanthakokilam wrote:I guess I live a sheltered life in a bubble I did not even know Aravam means Tamil. I take it then it is a slang ( derogatory? ) word. Who uses them?

Telugu people used to refer tamilians as ARAVAVAALLU AND tamil as aravam.derogatorily . When I was living in in Andhrapradesh I used to object vehemently and at times had to fight tooth and nail for restricting some of Andhra brothern from using this derogatory phrase., though I am an ardent lover of Telugu. My love towards TELUGU IS so deep and beyond lingual discriminations, that I could be able to compose kritis in that beautiful language.But I can not tolerate derogatory remarks mischievously professed against yet another DIVINE LANGUAGE that has been handed down by Lord MURUGA to the sacred saint AGASTHYA AND NURTURED BYTholgappiyar , Thiruvalluvar and other seers of yore.I thnik better sense of mutual , lingual understanding will prevail

vageyakara · Post by **vageyakara** » 16 Dec 2007, 16:22

gobilalitha wrote:I am also extremly anguished at tamil being referredto as adhvaanam . may be out of fun . it is derogatory . i fully endorse vageyakkara's views we fully respect bharathiar 's expression of telugu as sundara telunginile gobilalitha

Thank u Balu sir,
Thank God !! Amarakavi Bharathi has also emphatically expressed"YAAMARINDA MOZHIGALILEY THAMIZH MOZHIPOL INIDAAVADENGUM KANOM" (meaning that TAMIL is sweeter than any other Language) while endorsing that Telugu is the more suitable language for music compositions.And no other sensible soul (which cared for lingual amity) has spitted such derisive remark like ADHWANNAM while referring to TAMIL. LET US APPLY AN ESTOPPEL TO THIS EPISODE.
rAMARAJ

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 16 Dec 2007, 20:23

harimau,
Do you know who uttered these words? It was none other than Thirumlai Nayakkar - the

most autocratic militaristic sexist despot

http://www.visvacomplex.com/A_Poet%27s_Revenge.html

srkris,
I think the remarks of 'harimau' is in bad taste and needs to be deleted lest some unnecessary ruckus is created.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 16 Dec 2007, 21:11

Let it stay! I guess harimau meant no harm. Finding that the thread is moving into a serious territory he perhaps decided to lighten the mood by a quote he had heard. I think he himself is a Tamil with a strong flair for practical jokes but a serious lover of CM!
Making fun of another language is not at all uncommon. Perhaps some of you remember the epithets hurled at each other during the State Reorganization Commision when the Telugus laid claim to 'Madras' and the Tamils wanted possession of Thiruppati. CM should be the salve that unites us all rather than be a divisive force. While appreciating the beauty of one language there is no deprecation of the other which has other strengths. In fact CM should be considered 'language and culture free' suitable as a medium of universal love. The compositions in different languages are like ornaments that adorn the CM deity. If by far the ones made by Thyagaraja are the best, it does not preclude others to make better decorations. Let a spirit of competion prevail since all of us are common devotees. Most recently our own DRS amazed us by composing sparkling compositions in Sanketi (for the first time) which can vie in literary beauty and melody with any of the others. I am still expecting the gifted young man to elevate Sanketi as a 'lingua musica' in due course. As Rasikas let us enjoy and appreciate the best but not stop analyzing the components as to what makes it best so that future generations may excel for the everlasting glory of CM!