Exodus at thani aavarthanams

Ponbhairavi · Post by **Ponbhairavi** » 31 Oct 2007, 21:11

Exodus at thani Aavarthanams
The exodus of the audience at thani aavarthanams is a bane of the carnatic music concerts vexing and insulting to the percussionists.Can anything be done to stop this trend?
Generally nowadays in a standard two and a half hour concert two ragas are taken for detailed exposition and form the mainstay of the concert.The thani comes after the second one. Grossly the time distribution is something like this:
Introductory and warming up items 60 mts.
One major raga and krithi 20 mts
Fast paced filler 5 mts
Main major raga aalapanai,neraval,swaram 35 mts
With violinâ€™s repartees or R T P

THANI (2 percussionists) 15 mts

Post thani thukkadas ragamalika bhajans
Thillana jawali 15mts
As we see the percussion ensemble comes about 2 hours after the beginning. At this stage the main artist somehow feels that the concert is over( Muhurtham over feeling in a wedding) and is keen only on winding up.Very few artists today have the tendency and capacity to make the thukkada session worthwhile.The audience therefore feels it has little to expect ( as their request even if they make one) will not be obliged .They think that they can get double the time if they skip the thani also.Hence the exodus.
The situation can be radically changed by slightly restructuring the schedule as follows:
Introductory and warming up items 60 mts
Main major raga alapana,neraval,swaram
With violin repartees or RTP 35 mts

THANI 15 mts

Fast paced fillers 5 mts
Second major raga, 20 mts
Thukkadas 15 mts

It may be noted that I have not deleted nor cut the duration of any of the portion of the concert but only changed the order.Thani comes after 95 mts and the audience would not like to miss the second main raga of the concert besides the thukkadas.The 2 parts of the concert are balanced.
This does not contravene any Sampradaya but restores due honour to the percussion(LAYA pitha we say). It has now been universally recognized that mridangam with its pleasant and delicious beats( and the Ghatam too) are the best percussion instruments in the world)All that is needed is a little goodwill and adjustment by the main artist and eventually the organizers.
With the music season round the corner this suggestion deserves due consideration by all concerned.

gobilalitha · Post by **gobilalitha** » 01 Nov 2007, 07:29

your suggestion is very practicable, but the problem vocalist faces is that the rasikas send too many requests for popular songs. the vocalist in addition to rendering from his own prepared list has to oblige the rasikas. he has to adjust . I remember one funny incident in a performance by Sri tvsankaranarayanan, as soon as he finished the varnam ,one rasika stood up and shouted EPPO VARUVARO. TVS REPLIED he will come at his own time gobilalitha

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 01 Nov 2007, 09:00

Another reason people leave during the thani (for a toilet break or to go home) is their perception that they do not understand what is going on. The timing of the thani within the concert is not going to effect these people.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 01 Nov 2007, 09:38

Since Nick hasn't chimed in to say that we have discussed this topic not once but several times, I would like to say the same and add that the discussions haven't helped much.
All that we can hope for is that rasikAs are a bit more considerate and that the performers get a bit more stoic about it.
It is not fair, I would think, for us to regiment their concert planning...

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 01 Nov 2007, 11:16

Arasi, your point is valid but having the tani after the first main piece (say an hour into the concert) can go some way in solving the problem. although nothing would prevent people from using it as a toilet/snack break, at least the fidgeters would stay put...

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 01 Nov 2007, 11:56

I think the percussionists should turn the tables and walk out during the tani and let the main artiste keep the taalam for 15 minutes

. Just imagine, if all the percussionists in all concerts during the "see-sun" did this the first few times, the resulting embarassment and overall disruption to the concert atmosphere might make a difference. It will be the most talked about phenomenon of the season.

Alternatively, if every tani-loving rasika (can a rasika be of any other kind ?) decides to whack every slinking tani deserter within reach squarely on the behind, it might change the dynamic. For aesthetic purposes, the whack can fall on a nice laghu or samam and therefore may even go unnoticed by all except the perpetrator and the receiver. Perfect.

Ponbhairavi · Post by **Ponbhairavi** » 01 Nov 2007, 12:17

Gobilatha: I am not asking for placing the thukkadas after the varnam I have not shifted the thukkadas from the fag end of the concert. My only suggestion is to put the thani after the first main.TVS unflappable composure and presence of mind are well known
mohan:Precisely if rasikas come to know that after the thani there is a substantial part (or the better half) of the concert they may put up with the thani as some sense of rhythm is built in in everybody.
Arasi ; I understand that you are a senior and knowledgeable correspondent in this site whose prompt humour filled comments are highly valued. I am relatively new and I am sorry to resubmit the "araicha maavu" again.I agree with you that the artist's manodharma flow of imagination or vocal potentialities should not be subjected to any regimentaton. All that i am proposing is only a slight internal rearrangement of inserting the thani after the first main raga The other details given by me are only by way of illustrating that I am not in any way changing the basic structure of the concert planning neither in duration nor in sequence of the numbers.

aakhash · Post by **aakhash** » 01 Nov 2007, 14:06

There is a Sabha called Bhairavi Carnatic Music Circle, functioning for the past 26 years in Pondicherry. This Sabha has not so far witnessed such exodus during thani aavarthanam. On the other hand, the audience sit through the thani and encourage the percussionist with applause whenever he/she impresses the audience with his/her performance.
Till a few years back, there was a practice with some of the audience to get up immediately at the start of or during the middle of the mangalam. A notice board was displayed informing that getting up during the middle of Mangalam would mean disrespect to the artistes. Ever since then, not a single member gets up during the middle of Mangalam.

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 01 Nov 2007, 14:26

Ponbhairavi
I have just made one correction where second major rAga is appended with sub main in brackets to bring better brevity to what I write below.I am only assuming your suggestions are more intended when concerts are less or equal to 2 and 1/2 hours.

Ponbhairavi wrote:The situation can be radically changed by slightly restructuring the schedule as follows:
Introductory and warming up items 60 mts
Main major raga alapana,neraval,swaram
With violin repartees or RTP 35 mts

THANI 15 mts

Fast paced fillers 5 mts
Second major raga(sub main), 20 mts
Thukkadas 15 mts

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 01 Nov 2007, 14:30

Ponbhairavi,

Few counterpoints in your suggestion:
===========================
1. There is one line item that is not resonating with me well where you say Introductory and warming up items (exclusive of main or submain)being stretched continously for 60 minutes is quite unpragmatic atleast to me ,maybe atmost 45 minutes.

2. I think it is a statement of fact in more cases that even vocalists will like to take more prime time and if they give a tani at that center point as you suggest , will the tani performers return the baton back to vocalist on time. If the concert is close to 3 hours then possibly what you say is right . If the concert is less than 2 and 1/2 hours then I guess the sub main will get curtailed as tani eats a little extra time , may be sub main will only be a R,N or N,S or R,S not a R,N,S. I personally like concerts of yesteryears where the difference between sub main and main is only a tani. Take the case of SSI's pantuvarAli as a submain and a kharaharapriya as a main, atleast in vocal excellence view point there is no differerence between submain and main. I guess we are slowly losing the R,N,S as a submain in the last few decades or so and with your suggestion,the vocalist will slowly dilute the submain , hence R,N,S will be lost forever.

3.You left an important point between tani and Fast Paced Fillers there will be sabha seceretaries voracious appetite for speeches , if you give more time they will grab and talk more. Very likely the performers are only going to sing in relative time,not in absolute time. So end result sub main will be usually left out.

4. Will the voice warmup enough to take main krithi early, possibly yes. But will the voice warm up enough to take RTP , I am sliding more towards no.

5.How about considering manOdharmam quotient ? Will musicians have enough in their head.Possibly main krithi yes, RTP no.

To me your suggestion is really excellent(atleast I did not think on your lines...) , because at a macro viewpoint when we follow a sequence of submain and then main, the tani is forced more towards the centre to fagend of the concert (75 % point in time), whereas when main is preceding submain the tani is more towards the 60% point in time.That 15 % difference is an intelligent coercion to force folks to sit for tani and not think tani beginning is end of that rasikas concert. But that requires the ensembled team to commit for an absolute time and vocalist sacrificing his/her prime attention time to accompanists. Overall to me you have given atleast a solution , I thought there is none.

Vidwans/Vidsushis,
I think Ponbhairavi has really given an excellent solution. You can try atleast few times to see how it works.

gobilalitha · Post by **gobilalitha** » 01 Nov 2007, 15:46

some listeners foolishly think that the tani avarthanam has nothing todo with thesongs rendered,and that the percussionists just want to exhibit thei skill. in direct contrast in a hindustani music performance the sawal jawab session is the most eagerly awaited part of the performance gobilalitha

Sundara Rajan · Post by **Sundara Rajan** » 01 Nov 2007, 20:37

As Arasi has pointed out, this topic has been discussed many times in detail in this and the Sangeetham.com sites. As I mentioned in the past, the solution is to EDUCATE the audience about the tAlam aspect and make it INTERESTING for them to stay and ENJOY the thani session. It is also a fact that some WILL NEED to go out for toilet break (seniors) , puff break (juniors) in a 2 to 2 1/2 hours program. A short intermission of 10 minutes at the mid point might help these people. Also, as Semmangudi used to do in the fifties when I was in India, the main artist could implore the audience to stay and support/enjoy the thani session. Yet another novel suggestion would be to present the thukkadas after the first hour, thus enabling those who come for the thukkadas only, to leave after the intemission and not return ! This will leave the interested audience only for the main piece and thani.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 01 Nov 2007, 21:34

My resigned statement of 'what will be, will be' generated a lot of positive mail, and I am glad for it. Lots of good suggestions and comments. Thanks for initiating it all, ponbhairavi.

The various tactics for keeping the rasikAs in their seats (as we try to do with children, hoping they would behave) might work. To be polite, and for decorum, they might stay in their seats. But to think that they can't be deemed rasikAs if they do not enthuse over a tani is a bit of a stretch. If we expect only that kind of consummate rasikAs to attend a concert, how many would you find among the attendees in a given concert?
Percussionists walking out of the halls would disrupt concerts and affect the quality of the Season.
I do hope there are performers who read this thread and as Rajesh says--they could read ponbhairavi's suggestions and those of others--and come up with their own solutions to improve the situation...

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 01 Nov 2007, 21:45

One oft-repeated plea to the organizers: no speeches please, and if you do need to interrupt, please make them to the point (announcements are fine, about forthcoming events).
Believe me, of all the endless (!) speeches I have heard, there were two which I liked--for their aptness. AND THEY WERE VERY SHORT

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 01 Nov 2007, 21:54

I may get brickbats for this - but i cannot help but wonder the following.

Consider the fact that
a. Audiences have trickled out (or have been distracted) during tani for decades
b. Musicans have implored for them to stay for decades
c Even many people who stay may not know all the intricacies of the tani (i.e. korvais, different nadais)

Does(nt) this imply that tani is being offered to a customer-base that largely is not too enamored by it?. I know, I know - I equating parts of a divine art into a cheap, marketing thing. But an audience that takes the time to attend a cm concert is largely there to get entertained - a huge % of them aurally, and a smaller but still significant % also intellectually. So if you force-feed them - success is still going to be limited in the long run. And I wonder if that is the case with tani (barring exceptions like those of the great wizards).

So the question is why/how is the tani still being featured as a mandatory item in *every* concert? Intellectual value - certainly yes but are we seeing returns in terms of increased audience interest ? I may be presumptuous but I think not. Even in western audiences, drum solo holds about the same interest (and it is shorter).

Is it because we want to give percussionists their lime-light? I think there is certainly some truth but then the reason is the more about "playing fair", more about respect to the percussionist, then you are counting on people to stay just out of respect. The fact again that people have been imploring audience to stay and still interest in tani has not grown abounds implies many (not all!) people are staying still out of respect.

But in order for this part of any art to thrive, it is better to have people to stay because they believe they will get (aurally and intellectually) entertained. The fact is among cm rasikas, only a small percentage get intellectually entertained by tani. A bigger percentage - aurally but not big enough.

It is sad, but it seems somehow tani just does not hold enough interest for the intended audience base. If we look at it coldly (i.e. putting aside our attachment to traditions, also the intellectual aspects inside tani which cannot be denied), then it seems like a product that does not have enough selling points.

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 01 Nov 2007, 22:04

gobilalitha wrote:some listeners foolishly think that the tani avarthanam has nothing todo with thesongs rendered,and that the percussionists just want to exhibit thei skill. in direct contrast in a hindustani music performance the sawal jawab session is the most eagerly awaited part of the performance gobilalitha

I was thinking along the same lines.

In addition to what Ponbhairavi suggested, here is something experimental that some artists can try.

a ) During thani, the percussionists are the leaders and the vocalist and violinists are the 'side persons' but not simply putting the thalam and saying appreciative words but a lot more actively engaged in the thani than it is the practise now. That will definitely take out the perception that the thani is somehow thani( apart, separate ) from the main performance.

b) What is 'Active engagement' of the vocalist and violinist? It can take many forms and following are the things that come to my mind but I am sure it is limitless in the minds of imaginative artists.

1) This one is very easy to implement. The vocalists should not change their physical demeaner too much that indicates that it is 'relaxation' time and the violinist should not put the violin and bow down. This is just to maintain the continuity. This is not the time for the vocalist to reach for the coffee flask. This is purely cosmetic but sends the message clearly that their beloved main artist is serious about the thani. Sometimes little things like this help. If the vocalist or violinist need to relax a bit, they can do that towards the middle of the thani when the ambience has fully transitioned from the melody to the rhythm.

2) They need to smoothly transition into the core of the thani rather than the clean break that is done today. So as the thani phase is entered, let there by a sawal/jawab like thing among the percussionsists/vocalist/violinist. But the subtle change is, the percussionists are the leaders in this phase.

3) Then there can be percussionists only phase with occasional interjections from the vocalist and violinist without spoiling the wholeness of the thani conceived by the percussionists.

4) Since the vocalist and violinist are usually well versed in 'kuraippu', they can join in when the percussionists do the kuraippu but definitely as a 'sidemen'. The percussionists still are the leaders.

5) Same thing can be done when there are some interesting nadai variations, again as sidemen and repeating the rhythmic structures of what the percussionist have created with akAram or with solfa syllables.

6) Of course, the key is here to do it in the right dosages so they do not take away the leadership role from the percussionists and done with a lot of aesthetic sense.

7) Then they can end it the way it is done today which is usually quite exciting even for lay thani people.

These are just some suggestions for experimentation.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 01 Nov 2007, 22:11

Since the main performer is usually well versed in 'kuraippu',

I like this. Since that will be an education for listeners too. They can understand the language of percussion.

On another note I am wondering
What if there was no tani in a concert for eg:
Will the audience be sad (annoyed) that they didn't get to hear it. Or annoyed that they didn't get a break!.

Svaapana · Post by **Svaapana** » 01 Nov 2007, 22:41

As Mohan says lack of adequate knowledge and inability to recognise the beauty of the laya in our system and the mrudangam nadham as solo (ghatam and kanjira and the king of all percussion instruments the tavil included) is the main reason for the exodus.
Having said that, most present day mrudangam artistes seem to play tani (nearly an avarthanam) after every krithi/ song, then why have tani at all.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 01 Nov 2007, 22:48

Having said that, most present day mrudangam artistes seem to play tani (nearly an avarthanam) after every krithi/ song, then why have tani at all.

Svaapana, may be you are saying that with tongue in cheek, but playing such theermanams, however pleasing it is, is not same as the thani.

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 02 Nov 2007, 13:11

Arun, I guess your intention was to play the devil's advocate since you are clearly one of those who looks for "intellectual stimulation" as much as anyone else here! You raise an important point - the substance of which is that, if the audience does not want it, should it not be junked? The response, which you have provided in own post, is - it is not desirable for art to bend to the diktats of commerce or marketing.

This is not to say that these are not important. Thyagaraja and his unchavritis are gone for good. Artistes need to feed themselves and to do that audiences, and their pockets, are vital. However we ought to focus on utilizing the principles of marketing to propogate the art (in its undiluted form) rather than to align the fundamentals of the art with commercial drivers. To put it simply, it is certainly better to have a smaller, more enlighetned, audience than a mass market for the diluted version...CM is not, and need not be, a popular art form

But we've already hit a patch of grey...what constitutes an acceptable modification - was Ariyakudi's cutcheri format an example of dilution or market sensitivity? And how far can we take it without wondering whether what we have on hand is still carnatic music? How about cutcheries full of tukkadas? Why not eliminate RTPs, alaapanas, swara kalpana, kanakkus as well...I can imagine quite a substantial market for concerts focusing on light carnatic pieces with some raga based film music thrown in for good measure. Indeed some of our artistes are already well on this path...in many concerts one hears the loudest applause for Katrinile Varum Geethams and Korai Unrum Illais.

The point is, we need to draw a line somewhere and intimidate (I use that word very deliberately) artistes who seek to deviate from a shared set of core values (sorry for that appalling piece of corporate jargon!!) to enhance their popularity. The connoiseur's opinion is a very effective deterrent against such trends and must be deployed for maximum impact!

To me any proposal to chop off the tani is as good as killing CM. Rhythm is at the core of our art - if there is one aspect in which CM is on top of the heap of musical forms from around the world, it is the genius of our percussionists. There is nothing like it anywhere else. Therefore, a Lakshman Rekha around the tani, please! And 2 hoots (with a slap on the backside as a bonus!) for those who would prefer to see a concert without a tani.

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 02 Nov 2007, 15:08

Unfortunately, CM is not exempt from the laws of marketing. Vocalists become popular when they are younger and its their brand name that gets the crowd. It's my feeling that Violinists and percussionists become popular much later.

For eg. how many of the current violinists or percussionists are mentioned in the same breath as a Sanjay or a TMK. Even today, when it comes to violinists or percussionists, we talk of people who have stopped performing or close to the end of their career. On the other hand, when you have a UKS or a TNK playing, crowds flock because of the brand or aura they have created. Nobody leaves a UKS thani and its due to his brand or aura. Not many can understand what he plays.

I'm sure we will see the equivalent of UKS/Raghu among the current crop but will have to wait for another 20-30 years. It's not because they are not good now but the current system runs like a Calcutta tram when it comes to creating a star accompanist.

And taking the analogy with marketing further, don't blame the rasikas. Let the vocalists give free reign to the percussionists and then we can see some fireworks from the current lot as well.

Ponbhairavi · Post by **Ponbhairavi** » 02 Nov 2007, 18:28

I wish to put the topic back on the track from where it is imperceptibly drifting.
Unquestionable greatness of the carnatic layam concept ,educating the rasikas to the niceties of a thani, marketing strategies of carnatic music concerts ,force- feeding or suppression of thani , comportment of the artists on the stage are all great topics but I am NOT talking about any of these things now. My only point is UNDER THE EXISTING CONDITIONS can we not put thani after the first main instead of the second The views of Rajesh are very apt and call for a reply
I agree with him that the main danger is the talk of the secy or the organizer after the thani creating a hyatus and ruining the tempo of the concert.In fact I know of people who flee in the middle of the concert more to avoid the ordeal of listening to the platitudes than listening the thani.But there is a solution.In most of the chennai season concerts there is no such interference .I have attended some concerts in US where the speeches are either before the beginning of the concert or relegated to the penultimate place just before the thillana.Here also in places where the speeches are inevitable the main artist whose permission is always sought can very well tell the organizer to have the speeches before the commencement or if asked in the middle : "Ippo sruthi kalainju poyidum konjam pogattum naaney solren ".
The second apprehension Rajesh has raised is whether the percussionists will render the baton back without trespassing their time slot.I think they will because nowadays there is better team work and cooperation among the artists on the stage as compared to the one- upmanship of olden days( an anecdote to relax : In one of the olden days RTP the singer was while putting the thalam hiding his hands under the towel so that the mridangist could not see the eduppu count. The mridangist thought for a while and then was just moving his fingers NEAR the sides of the mridangam without touching it.When the perplexed audience asked he coolly replied My vaasippu is inaudible to all just as the thaalam is invisible to all)
They will finish in time because after all it is a return favour for a favour they got.If in exceptional cases, carried by the (over) enthusiasm the percussionists tend to prolong, the main artist can at any time sound the invisible alert signal(ask any violinist he will tell you how the signal is emitted and received)
Jokes apart, I think my suggestion is serious as it does not impose any regimentation on the freedom of choice or Manodharma or concert planning of the artist.With a little bit of cooperation among the artists(and the organizers in the case of "speech- concerts") my humble suggestion promises lot of good to CM.

Svaapana · Post by **Svaapana** » 02 Nov 2007, 20:34

IMHO people who move out during the Thani are missing something unique to our music. I am certain that none of them would think that it is unfair to the percussionist when they walk out. Why do they do that? Many think that appreciating laya is beyond them. Audience appreciate raga alapana, krithis and kalpan swaras, etc why not laya? If we want that this exodus does not happen, it is necessary to make the awareness level go up, the percussionists themselves best do this. Perhaps AIR and TV can do a lot on this aspect. Cosmetic changes like timing of the thani may only help to a small extent.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 02 Nov 2007, 20:42

ponbhairavi,

While your suggestion seems good and has potential, IMO it is really not that important as the fundamental problem itself.

Let me explain - you start a thread titled "Exodus at thani aavarthanams", and being with the exodus of the audience at thani aavarthanams is a bane of the carnatic music concerts vexing and insulting to the percussionists Can anything be done to stop this trend?. Now what are you trying to say? That exodus is bad and is a bane to CM? If so, dont we have to look why this is present? Without understanding that what is the point in proposing solutions? You are simply addressing a symptom and not the problem and want to limit the discussion to your specific solution to the symptom.

But why do we think people wont leave if the tani is earlier? Is it because it is too early for a bathroom/canteen break? Or is that there is still room in most people's "appreciation/intellectual tank" early that more people may appreciate it? I think latter is just wishful thinking and I think it is indeed more of the former. If tani is featured earlier, we think even those who are not that enamored by tani may be more willing to "wait it out". So this is simply creating a condition where more people may be sort of forced to tolerate it. Now how is that helping tani in the long run? Dont you think these people are simply going to adjust their canteen/bathroom break accordingly soon enough (in fact a tani 45 minutes into the concert is still apt for it

) That is why IMO in the long run it just wont work. You will still have this problem.

Arun

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 02 Nov 2007, 20:44

vijay,

I was not fully playing the devil's advocate but I was indeed a little bit i.e. in taking it to the extreme - and I am here too!

I do really think that tani does not have wide appreciation, because it does not have enough, easy selling points unlike alapana, kalpanaswaras, krithis and neravals. And this even to its own intended audience! We may take the high road and say it does not have wide appreciation - but then why must it be featured in every concert?

This may be surprising but the technical details of tani dont seem to excite me as much as the melodic aspects. But no - dont walk out of tani either

. Although I am trying to improve my appreciation of it, at this point it is largely limited to one or more of the following:
(i) does the rhythm sound catchy?
(ii) are the different timbre/nadhams of the instrument being displayed effectively
(iii) putting talam (which IMO is not even that important to the appreciation of tani itself - it is mainly a time keeper for the mridangist).

I have asked this before, but I would really like a poll of all the people who like tani that asks them why they liked it, what are the different aspects of that particular tani they liked. I wonder if the predominant category of appreciation is fairly at a peripheral level.

Arun

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 02 Nov 2007, 21:43

OK Arun...here's what I look forward to:

First and foremost, the naadam of the instruments...it is a melody in itself and, as you are no doubt aware, the only kind of percussion that can actually be tuned to the singer's pitch..for those who are, like me, not experts on laya, this is the main "selling point"!

Korvais - both those interspersed with the vinyasa and the final korvai. I look out for the length, nadai, employment of karvais, progression of the eduppu

Nadais themselves can be interesting. The moment the nadai is changed an amateur like me immediately sets off trying to figure it out (since it is not immediately obvious except perhaps Tisram)...then trying to keep up with the percussionists' knots...like playing patterns of 4 in khandam/tisram, long karvais, emphasis of irregular beats (syncopation?)

For me the most exciting part of the tani is the koraippu...especially if it is in a non-chatusra nadai. Trying to see how the poor upapakkavadyakas cope with the main artiste! And how the climax is built up to the farans/mohra...Sometimes vidwans finish avartas on 1/2, 1/4 idam and that can have its own charm...

Finally the pleasure of the final korvai and guessing the eduppu of the neraval line (without looking at the violinist's cue - to me that is akin to consulting the Thesaurus while solving a Xword!) and with a flourish, signalling the artist to start..of course you can also come off looking totally foolish as I often do but therein lies the challenge...

I am sure there are many other finer points that the lay ear misses (I haven't really cottoned on to Misra and Khanda Koraippus for instance although I am aware of the theory) but there is enough to keep even the untrained rasika glued...for me, in many cases the tani is the high point of an otherwise average concert...yes, it is frustrating when one cannot follow the taalam and there is a lot of tension while it is on (to emerge from a tani with the taalam unmolested is still one of my unfulfilled dreams!) but yeah, loads of fun!

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 02 Nov 2007, 21:51

Another perspective I have is that a tani provides a change in sound from the high pitched music of the vocalist/instrumentalists...after a long exercise in Thodi or Sankarabharanam I actually find the tone of the mridagnam to be quite soothing. This is another reason why I would prefer a tani after the first piece (and preferably after both main pieces!)

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 02 Nov 2007, 22:02

thanks vijay. Half those terms I dont understand, and the ones i do i cannot correlate well when I listen, and the couple I can I correlate (for some reason) I dont always get excited

. I do like the nadai changes - but I cannot pick out most.

But what does excite me more is during kalpanaswaras when the vocalist does his kOrvai first, and in the second iteration (or even when violinist comes up with "similar response") the mridangists "gets it" and matches it. I also get more excited with the mridangam patterns in dance-jatis. I think dance jatis are quite attractive from a rhythmic aspect - but this is of course why I also like many portions of the tani (in terms of "catchy").

But all this from a aural standpoint only - although I do like how the swara pattern divisions translate to percussion.

Now I would find this very interesting: Vocalist/Instrumentalist sings/plays a swara pattern and Mridangist responds. Or vice-versa. Eventually the coincide with some recognizable korvai ending in a crescendo

. Is this similar to sawal-jawab?

Arun

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 02 Nov 2007, 22:07

Arun,
How do you appreciate kalpanaswaras? Maybe, part of the answer lies there. I would also encourage you to attend Mandolin Srinivas's concerts for enthralling sawal jawab sessions with the mridangist.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 02 Nov 2007, 22:10

yep - a lot

Arun

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 02 Nov 2007, 22:27

Speaking of tanis, the thrillingest thani I ever listened to, and often still do, is a KRM, KH tani in a TNS concert. How I would have loved to have heard it live

. The audience was truly blessed who had the opportunity. I would love to share this tani with the world. Is there some place I can upload a 20MB file ?

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 02 Nov 2007, 22:47

Please do Uday...but I believe that a tani with the above combo (KGS 85 or 86, Bhairavi main) was posted in the vidwans/vidushies thread very recently. You can use any file sharing site - sendspace is popular and efficient and I don't think 20 MB is not a problem (assuming you have a broadband connection). On the other technicalities I am equally blank...

Arun, if you like dance jathis, you do have a fundamental appreciation of rhtyhm...now you only have to blank out the "visual" aspect! Actually having largely been exposed to musical rather than visual aspects of rhythm, I almost always often find the footwork in a dance performance somewhat wanting even when it is of a very high standard....in shuddha nrutta, for instance, one expects something like a koraippu but the legs/salagai are a poor substitute for the ghatam/kanjira at least as far as the ear is concerned!

And I don't necessarily "follow" everything I've written about. This is just theory I've gleaned from various sources and try to spot in an actual tani...more often than not I fail, including identification of nadai even though it is somewhat fundamental to layam appreciation...

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 02 Nov 2007, 23:04

Enjoyed reading your savAl javAb, Vijay and Arun. Keep it going to explore the reasons behind an exodus. I do not know the intricacies but I do get hooked on to a quality tani. So, I may have an inkling about how both kinds (adorers and those who abhor tani) feel.
My responses:
If the playing is loud, even the best of vidvAns put me off. More so because they ARE capable of nuances but take the rock concert road and drown their capabilities in being noisy. To hear UKS the day after a concert with Mr. Noise makes me feel grateful. I hear the beautiful sounds of the mrudangam even more keenly. Arun, even if I am not in a dance performance, I am transported and am reminded of SivA's steps in the best moments of such a tani. Two consummate vidvAns here, but entirely different when it comes to performance. So, for me, since you are taking a poll, NOISE puts me off.

Yes, the artistes on the stage switching off or being distracted during the tani IS very much a cue to the 'still wondering about laya and its place in a concert' kind of people. If the concert flows into it and out of it, a tani would be more interesting. VK and the two of you mention it too.
Another never-ending topic makes its appearance now. Ah, physically the listeners are still there but have started socializing from their seats. It is chat time for them and pleading looks, please, 'sh sh' time for the enthusiasts, in dealing with this disruption.
Why is percussion in CM lackluster for the average listener? Beats me. After all, it is the 'beat' that most often draws people to popular music. Just for a moment, imagine the body language of the young while listening to their music.
While a super tani dazzles me, I enjoy the all along accompaniment, the subtle rhythm of an 'anuSaraNai' mrudangist who can add patterns to the singer's weaving of vocal sounds.
As for the percussionist, while he wants to give his best, he should not have the attitude that it is his individual performance that counts. It is best if he plays with the feeling that he is continuing the pattern that the vocalist has delineated and while he is there to show his excellence, he also knows that it is team work that he is engaged in, after all...

Interesting Vijay that you 'see' (hear) dance in the sounds of the mrudangam too.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 02 Nov 2007, 23:52

vijay wrote:Arun, if you like dance jathis, you do have a fundamental appreciation of rhtyhm...

I did not mean to imply otherwise. The reason why I like jatis may be:
1. generally they are catchy
2. the mridangam patterns are constructed such that they are dancable - so I think this means the patterns are not "very very fast". The beats stand out pretty much throughout the jati.
3. I also like the sollus i.e. konnakkOl type language. This probably helps accentuating the rhythm
4. (perhaps most important

) The jati is there for about 5 minutes and then back to melody. Now if the jati went for 15 minutes, my interest may wane!

I do like rhythm. I also like pure rhythm - but more so if it is in short spurts.

Arun

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 03 Nov 2007, 07:44

vijay

Here it is, the tani of a lifetime (18.5 mB).

http://www.sendspace.com/file/2818hb

prashant · Post by **prashant** » 03 Nov 2007, 08:43

Make sure you guys listen to this 'tani of a lifetime' also

http://file.uploadr.com/11669

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 03 Nov 2007, 13:58

Thanks Uday and Prashant

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 03 Nov 2007, 14:01

arasi wrote:Why is percussion in CM lackluster for the average listener? Beats me.

Very punny!

sankirnam · Post by **sankirnam** » 03 Nov 2007, 20:35

A thread like this and no UKS thanis yet? For shame....

Only UKS sir can create such a thrilling effect with such simple sollus... this thani is one that every layman will enjoy!

http://rapidshare.com/files/67170264/BM ... n.mp3.html

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 03 Nov 2007, 22:05

Ah, delectable thanis.. Reminds me of a bunch of pAvakkAi loving people wondering why others don't like this wonderful thing as they are served various pAvakkAi based delicacies.

Svaapana · Post by **Svaapana** » 03 Nov 2007, 22:30

â€œWho is not moved with concord of sweet soundsâ€

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 04 Nov 2007, 04:55

Well, I'm on holiday in UK until Tuesday, hence my not chirping about how many times we've discussed this before.

I've only had time to skim the thread, but there does seem to be some positive and original contribution to the "problem"

Perhaps I'm just going to be repeating myself and be unoriginal when I add my comment that the root of the problem is the dreadful manners of the Chennai audiences.

I very much regret to say that it is those who, as my mum might have remarked, "are old enough to know better" that are the worst.

When many of that elder generation have passed on we will (assuming, and hoping, that we have any audience left) have ---

--- lost a great repository of knowledge and tradition.

--- maybe gained a new generation of audience with better manners.

I'm reminded of the baby and bathwater saying, and it makes me sad.

Please do not tell me that I should not speak of my elders thus: I'm afraid I believe in respect where it is due. The date of one's birth has nothing to do with it

My answer, in practical terms, is to have longer concerts with an interval. My bladder is one of the many that often cannot last an entire concert! Of course, those of us who suffer such weakness are well advised to ocupy seats that allow us to go and come without disturbing others.

As to the concert format to be arranged around this interval, a London audience likes to hear a major kriti in the first part and an RTP in the second part! I think they work the artists harder! They are even happy to hear a thani for both! although the second one is usually fairly short.

This split concert will probably not work for "season" or festival-type programmes where there are numerous events taking place to time on the same day. There are also artists who hate to have their flow interupted, and I feel one should accept that.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 04 Nov 2007, 08:07

Nice to hear your 'chirp', Nick.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 05 Nov 2007, 04:01

Thank you, Arasi

I have noticed that it is not only that these people desire to get away from the Thani, but they are convinced that, from the point that it occurs, there will be nothing further worth hearing in the entire remainder of the program.

I say desire to get away from as there is nothing half-hearted in the action of many of these people! To see the look in some of their faces one might think that they feared being polluted by staying longer!

Of course, it may well be that my imagination is running away with itself and its just that they have a bus to catch!

In a way I have some sympathy, if the idea is that they wish to leave with some major work in their minds, rather than humming some light tune that has intruded upon their thoughts.

I went to a concert given by a Ukranian choir the other day. The first part was religious chanting; the second was folk. I'd rather have had the folk first, working up to the heavier and meatier chanting, and left the concert with the amazing atmosphere that that created.

But it seems to be a tradition worldwide to do the serious stuff first and end with something light so, as often occurs, it is my thinking that is 'out of step' here.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 05 Nov 2007, 06:04

So, for the tani-deserters, there are many reasons which impel them to make a beeline to the exit. I think one of them is not considering a concert hall to be a place where a sense of decorum prevails (thus the abrupt getting up and leaving, not waiting for an item to end, constant chatter, and so on). They won't imagine their children getting up in the middle of a class and leaving the school for no reason. These are attendees who are rather insensitive.
The other kind, as you say, have valid reasons. The last bus, is one. They could be serious rasikAs who have compelling reasons for leaving and they walk out imperceptibly during the lull between items. During the season, if you want to catch an overlapping concert elsewhere, this happens too.
I have seen some avid rasikAs, mostly homemakers, in day-time concerts which are free. They cannot afford the ticket price and (or) their family duties beckon. They pack a snack or a mini meal, sit outside the halls during the lull between concerts and are receptive but silent listeners of several concerts in a row. The season is such a boon for these women.
Some years ago, I went to listen to an eminent vidvAn who sang beautifully for more than three hours, and as we hurried back to catch the train (coming from a long distance), the underground station where we had to take the train which would take us to the main station was deserted. We were almost locked out, I remember. The ticket booth was closed and you had to have the right change to feed the ticket machine. Those who think that we who live away from India get into a car to go to the end of the street or to other far away places, better believe that it isn't so with us all!
Back to the tani, it would be nice to hear our performing forumites on this. Better still, they could make this a topic in one of the seminars or take a poll among the artistes....

mri_fan · Post by **mri_fan** » 05 Nov 2007, 07:54

I also think that if more vocalists today were more vocal (pardon the pun) whenever they saw exodus during a thani, that could help, if only a little bit, due to the other valid reasons mentioned by arasi

Ponbhairavi · Post by **Ponbhairavi** » 06 Nov 2007, 22:07

One thing which is clear from the postings in this thread seems to suggest that people leave during thani NOT because of any aversion to percussion. Those who do not understand the intricacies of thalam are happy to enjoy the beautiful naatham of mridangam and ghatam (Swaapna,Arun, Vijay ) and some even regret their lack of knowledge.That is a positive sign.. In fact there are many in any concert hall who do not decipher the identity of all the ragas or the noble meaning of the compositions and all the same they are drawn by the melody. That is the greatness of our music. Moreover Layam has an advantage over melody in the sense that it is built in everyone of us. In human life from womb to tomb there is rhythm in everything e.g. the sun the moon, respiration, the heart beat etc. and that makes the new-born jump to his motherâ€™s music.
Regarding people who have to leave for toilet or quenching their thirst or appetite or catching a bus or attending another concert or engagement (Arasi) they have obviously nothing against thani avarthanam in particular and they will anyway leave but individually at various points of time instead of an en masse exodus.
As rightly pointed out by Nick H the exodus is more due to a sense that the concert is substantially almost over and â€œ there will be nothing further worth hearing in the entire remainder of the programme( unfortunately many main artists themselves feel a sense of â€œconcert-overâ€