Sankari Sanguru in Saveri

sshankar_1970 · Post by **sshankar_1970** » 22 Oct 2007, 10:31

Hi

I am anewcomer to this site .. Recently I happened to see a CD whwerein Syama Sastri's Saveri composition "Sankari Sanguru" was listed as set to Rupaka Tala . I was always under the impression that it was Adi Tala Tisra Nadai .. Can someone tell me which is coreect . Or can it be sung in both talas

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 22 Oct 2007, 10:39

Shankar you coudl browse through other threads (i think in technical discussions) where this has been discussed. One avartha of tisra adi is equivalent to 3 avarthas of rupakam. Krithis in Tisra Adi like Sankari Shamkuru, Himadrisuthe are often taught in Rupakam to beginners.

In short it can be sung on both thalas but the rhtyhm of the song corresponds to Tisra Adi rather than rupakam

sramaswamy · Post by **sramaswamy** » 22 Oct 2007, 22:07

Should that not be 4 avarthas of rupakam ( 4x6 = 24) = one avartha of tisra nadai adi ( 3*8)?

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 23 Oct 2007, 03:17

correct. i would say 4 * 3 = 1.5 * 8

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 23 Oct 2007, 06:17

Although Adi-Tisra Nadai and Rupaka tala are permutations of each other, I feel that the rhythmic effect created by Tisra Nadai is lost when Rupaka is used.

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 23 Oct 2007, 10:15

Yes it should be 4, not 3...my apologies for the confusion. I also agree with Mohan on the rhythm. Most krithis in tisra adi(especially SS') are quite clearly aligned to Tisra nadai

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 23 Oct 2007, 10:22

To clarify the equivalence adding to Suresh's post:
6 matras * 8 beats * 1 avartha (Adi Tisram) = 4 matras * 3 beats * 4 avarthas (Chatushra Rupakam)

If you take the textbook version of rupakam (6 beats) the equivalence would be:
6 matras * 8 beats * 1 avartha (Adi Tisram) = 4 matras * 6 beats * 2 avarthas (Chatushra Rupakam)

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 23 Oct 2007, 18:57

vijay wrote:Yes it should be 4, not 3...my apologies for the confusion. I also agree with Mohan on the rhythm. Most krithis in tisra adi(especially SS') are quite clearly aligned to Tisra nadai

Can you explain this in more detail? In case of both Sankari Sankuru and karuNAnidhi ilalo, I am unable to comprehend this. For Sankari Sankuru, particularly for the opening line of pallavi the words seem to divide ok in rUpaka.

Arun

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 23 Oct 2007, 21:49

Arun, you got me as far as SAnkari Sankuru is concerned! But Himadri Suthe Pahimam, the solkattu very clearly follows the Tisra Nadai patters "Madri" (2nd), "Suthe" (3rd) and "Pahi"(4th) follow the ta-ki-ta pattern as does "Vathe, Hi" (1st)...I am sure there are other good examples but can't think of any at the moment!

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 23 Oct 2007, 23:03

.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 23 Oct 2007, 23:28

No i meant - i do know how it spreads acrosss 1 avartanam of Adi tisra naDai. But if we take the same across rUpaka (cApu) doesnt it become:

Sankari | Sankuru | candramu || khi | AkhilAN | DESwari ||

The words seem to split nicely here - dont they?

Arun

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 24 Oct 2007, 05:15

arunk wrote:

Sankari | Sankuru | candramu || khi | AkhilAN | DESwari ||

Arun this seems to be 2-kalai rupakam.

In 1-kalai rupakam the splitting would be across four avartanams:

San | kari | Sank ||
uru | chan | dra mu||
khi | , | Akhi||
lAn | dES |wari ||

In Tisra-Adi, no word is split between avartanams of the tala.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 24 Oct 2007, 06:57

Mohan,

ok - I was just putting what seemed natural. But does that really change things? I think the case for tisra-Adi is not simply because no word is split across avarthana (as just 1-kalai catusra rUpaka would do the same) - but perhaps ALSO that the arudhi of khi... is at half-point. But then both 2-kalai rUpakam and 2-kalai tisra-eka will fit. In fact for karuNAnidhi ilalO, I have seen references to Adi tisra gati, but Smt. Vidya Sankar's book has it as 2-kalai tisra-eka.

I think the more intriguing question for me is whether there is an inherent tisra gati feel to the way the melody spreads across the tala - or more important must it for a song to be in tisra gati? The words in pallavi here do seem to split in groups of 2 or 4s i.e. like in catusra gati. Hence, in this case, I am unable to perceive this "tisra gatiness" and I would like more insight into it

Arun

bhaktha · Post by **bhaktha** » 24 Oct 2007, 08:41

That was indeed Sri Sastry's specialty- the existence of a dwi-gati. Shankari actually is set to Adi Tisram whereas it gives the feel of a song in catustra gati adi/rupaka tala. Sheer Genius!
-bhaktha