Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Tālam & Layam related topics
mridhangam
Posts: 976
Joined: 04 Dec 2006, 13:56
x 4
x 1

#51

Post by mridhangam »

Vasanthakokilam wrote:6) With the basic Korvai lesson that you started, can you give an audio example with just Poorvanga and Uttaranga ( without the madhyanga ). You can use the one you started with. And then provide the variations on the same structure that you have done with the three part one ( Poorvanga-madhyanga-uttaranga). That can be our lesson 1 and then we will use the three part one as the second lesson which you have already done.
Taking our thread of korvais and the same variety listed above without the madyanga i am giving the korvai below and the varieties will follow suit one after another....

Dhi , tan,gita thaka tharikitathaka thom , tha , thom , kita thaka
Dhi , tan,gita thaka tharikitathaka thom , tha , thom , kita thaka tharikita
Dhi , tan,gita thaka tharikitathaka thom , tha , thom ,

Tha , Dhin , ginathom , , , (7 * 1 + 3 karvai)
Tha , Dhin , ginathom tha , dhin , ginathom , , , (7 * 2 + 3 karvai)
Tha , Dhin , ginathom Tha , Dhin , ginathom Tha , Dhin , ginathom (Tha). (7 * 3) makes 48 utharaangam.

How i got this idea of 1, 2 and 3 is very interesting. The 48 can be split into three parts with of 14 each with 3 karvais after the first 14 and second 14. If there are three 14s then it is easy to get 7, 14 and 21 as per the logic i have mentioned earlier. That is what i have done here. Just playing 14 into 3 times leaving a gap of 3 will not look nice practically. Hence this idea of presentation.

Will upload the audio soon.

J.Balaji

Nick H
Posts: 9121
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
x 904
x 25

#52

Post by Nick H »

Just a little rambling on notation and reading....

I don't think I could ever have made any sense of mridangam had my teacher not given notation, even of those early lessons, in a form where, like reading poetry, one can see the structure.

Even without using underline for second speed (double underline for third speed is hard on a computer...), one gets the idea of the difference in speeds seeing

Tha Dhi Ghi Na Thom and Kitatakatharikitaka.

Even without spaces, it can be made more readable, and the phrasing more obvious by adding caps --- KitaTakaThariKitaThaka.

Some texts give the structure just in numbers eg 5,,, 5,,, 5 --- which is fine for artists, for they need only the structure and can play whatever fits, also knowing what fingering is appropriate and changing it according to improvisation.

For students and onlookers (I think I'm an onlooker these days) it is important that the difference between Tha Dhi Ghi Na Thom and Tha Ka Tha Ki ta be, literally, spelt out. One is an appropriate korvai pattern, the other is not.

Quite apart from the fact that we can enjoy the vocal sounds of these wonderful compositions as composed by our gurus and their gurus

This latest korvais is a very nice example of the 1+2+3=3*2 logic, and a lovely example of how maths becomes music.

Thank you for following the format of notation that I am comfortable with :). It is a format with which my guruji has made some understanding of mridangam possible for those who would have found it very hard otherwise.
Last edited by Guest on 01 Apr 2007, 18:16, edited 1 time in total.

pallavi.pr
Posts: 83
Joined: 05 Mar 2007, 17:32

#53

Post by pallavi.pr »

Hi Friends!

Just read the thorough explanation given by Mridhangam. Will get back to you with queries :-).

True Vasanthakokilam, to teach something so intricate in a manner that we must understand is indeed a task! Kudos to u mridhangam!

pallavi.pr
Posts: 83
Joined: 05 Mar 2007, 17:32

#54

Post by pallavi.pr »

mridhangam,

I may have some very basic doubts in korvais and mohras, but I'm learning music and I want to gain knowledge on this important aspect.

As you mentioned the song is taken up after the mohra. I thought the mohra is followed by the korvai and then the song is taken up. Please clarify if my understanding is wrong. Thx!

Please could you give an example of a how these two come one after the other and then the song is taken up. Maybe a complete example of Thani will be gr8 :-)...hope I'm not asking for tooo much!

The example could include when the mridhangam and upapakkavadhyas start playing together. From there on, the farans, mohra and korvai.

Or even better would be if you could take an existing audio clipping and analyze that for us by explaining the elements in the thani.

It will be great mridhangam! Awaiting your response :-)

vasanthakokilam
Posts: 10933
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
x 11
x 1

#55

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Tha Dhi Ghi Na Thom and Kitatakatharikitaka.

Even without spaces, it can be made more readable, and the phrasing more obvious by adding caps --- KitaTakaThariKitaThaka.
Balaji, I think the caps idea of Nick will work for me as well.

Also, I am trying to tie the poorvanga and uttaranga of the korvais back to the matrix ( table ) you provided in post number 5. So, for each Korvai, can you specify the table coordinates in the ( kanakku, karvai ) form. For example, for a poorvanga count of 54, one possible coordinate is ( 10, 8 ) and for the uttaranga count of 42, one possible coordinate is ( 10, 6 ). May be I am taking your tables too literally and too much in a concrete fashion but I liked your compact table representation of the various possibilities.

mridhangam
Posts: 976
Joined: 04 Dec 2006, 13:56
x 4
x 1

#56

Post by mridhangam »

Member Vasanthakokilam
You can take the korvais table literally for the beginning and go slolwy and gradually to advanced calculations so that it becomes natural for you or for any other willing participants. And more so as you had pointed out the compactness of the table which has been created for the sake of millions of students by me. Moreover this is not exhaustive as you can build it for whatever number you want based on the requirement. Longer the Tala longer could be your requirement and hence you can extend the table beyond 10 also.

In your post above the total should be for three avartanas that is 54+42 makes 96 which can be handled the way you have mentioned. Having used 10 as a pattern with 8 as karvai for the poorvanga you can take 8 with 9 karvais to make the total to 42 for the utharaanga as once again the combination with 10 in the utharaanga also makes little variety. I will now represent the above with a korvai given below :

Thakitathom, thadinginathom tha , , , dhi , , ,
Thakitathom, thadinginathom tha , , , dhi , , ,
Thakitathom, thadinginathom tha , , , dhi , , ,

thakita thadinginathom (tha , , tha , , tha , ,)
thakita thadinginathom (tha , , tha , , tha , ,)
thakita thadinginathom (tha)

In the above the poorvaanga kaarvai is split into 4+4 and the utharaanga kaarvai is split into (3+3+3). Now I too have a korvai for three avarthas. One more tip here any three avarta korvai in adi tala may be immediately converted into tisra nadai also.

Member Pallavi.pr

You are not asking too much of anything. I am trying to be as educative as possible to this forum members and want to give my might for the benefit of Rasikas.

I have modified the post kindly refer to the item there that after the Mohara and Korvai the song is taken and not as mentioned earlier "After the Mohara the song is taken". Sorry about the error.

Only after the mohara the korvai comes and after the korvai is played three times the song is taken by the singer and it will be finished.

J.Balaji
Last edited by mridhangam on 02 Apr 2007, 13:06, edited 1 time in total.

vasanthakokilam
Posts: 10933
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
x 11
x 1

#57

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Having used 10 as a pattern with 8 as karvai for the poorvanga you can take 8 with 9 karvais to make the total to 42 for the utharaanga as once again the combination with 10 in the utharaanga also makes little variety.
Thanks Balaji..Very nice. I liked your idea of adding the variety between poorvanga and uttaranga. And that is the usefulness of your table. It is a matter of looking up another cell for the same number 42 and read off the (kanakku, karvai ) coordinate. Of course, presentation and aesthetic considerations are paramount as you have shown in your example transformation. Thanks again.

pallavi.pr
Posts: 83
Joined: 05 Mar 2007, 17:32

#58

Post by pallavi.pr »

Thx Balaji. Looking forward to seeing more of your Gyaaan on this topic! :-)

mridhangam
Posts: 976
Joined: 04 Dec 2006, 13:56
x 4
x 1

#59

Post by mridhangam »

Vasanthakokilam .. i was triggered yesterday so much with 42 did so many varieties out of it. I will give below the varieties for the 42 apart from 8+ 9 karvai+8+9 karvai+8 :-

it works really nice from the logic of reducing a number in the beginning and increasing a number at the end ....

1 ) 8 + (9 )+ 8 + (9) + 8

2) 7 + (9 )+ 8 + (9) + 9

3) 6 + (9 )+ 8 + (9) + 10

4) 5 + (9 )+ 8 + (9) + 11

5) 4 + (9 )+ 8 + (9) + 12

6) 3 + (9 )+ 8 + (9) + 13

7) 2 + (9 )+ 8 + (9) + 14

8) 1 + (9 )+ 8 + (9) + 15

9) actually 0 + (9) + 8 + (9)+ 16

The ninth is a little tricky and one can wonder how to play 0. It is just for showing the reduction that is all. Moreover when you are playing a misra koraippu from the Ring Finger spot for Adi Talam One kalai you hv to render two 7s and then leave a gap of 9 and then play 8 and leave a gap of 9 and then play 16. Which will be very nice to listen to also ....

Did much more than the above varieties. Did sub splitting of the numbers and gave me immense varieties and really had a very filling day. Just thought of sharing with all of you. Enjoy.

J.Balaji

vasanthakokilam
Posts: 10933
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
x 11
x 1

#60

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Balaji, wonderful.. Thanks for sharing that.

mridhangam
Posts: 976
Joined: 04 Dec 2006, 13:56
x 4
x 1

#61

Post by mridhangam »

Members further questions are welcome ? basic or advanced ... I am daring to go from here ...
J.Balaji

mridhangam
Posts: 976
Joined: 04 Dec 2006, 13:56
x 4
x 1

#62

Post by mridhangam »

The next topic you might want to know is about Korvai is that there are mixtures of korvais where you have the Poorvanga-Utharanga intermingled giving a feeling that there is no poorvanga or utharaanga. Actually there are korvais which have intermingling of Poorvanga-utharaanga which gives a beautiful dimension to the Korvai structure. I give below an example for adi tala 2 cycles with 16 counts and 64 sub units in third speed :

Basic Poorvanga-utharaanga structure is simple splitting of 24 and 40.

24 is divided by 3 and made into 3 * 8 or alternatively 7 + 8 + 9

the 40 is divided into 3 parts of 15 + 10 + 5 * 3

15 is represented with Tha , , dhi , , gi , , na , , thom , ,
10 is represented with tha , dhi , gi , na , thom
5 * 3 is Thadiginathom thadiginathom thadiginathom tha.

The korvai would look like this as a basic structure :

Tha , Dhi , ginathom
Tha , , dhi , ginathom
tha , , dhi , , ginathom

Tha , , dhi , , gi , , na , , thom , ,
tha , dhi , gi , na , thom ,
thadiginathom thadiginathom thadiginathom (tha)

Now mixing poorvanga and utharaanga we can get a nice korvai out of the above which looks aesthetically beautiful and also technically precise :

Tha , Dhi , ginathom Tha , , dhi , , gi , , na , , thom , ,
Tha , , dhi , ginathom tha , dhi , gi , na , thom ,
tha , , dhi , , ginathom thadiginathom thadiginathom thadiginathom (tha)

That korvai of 24+40 has taken a totally new direction by this method of intermingling of Poorvanga and utharaanga.

Hope you understand it.
Thank you
J.Balaji
Last edited by mridhangam on 05 Apr 2007, 16:33, edited 1 time in total.

sbala
Posts: 629
Joined: 30 Jul 2006, 08:56

#63

Post by sbala »

JB Sir,
In this case, would it be right to say it has no poorvanga and uttaranga even though
it was derived from a korvai that had these parts.

mridhangam
Posts: 976
Joined: 04 Dec 2006, 13:56
x 4
x 1

#64

Post by mridhangam »

Member sbala
we cant say there is no poorvaanga or utharaanga in that korvai they have been masked that all there is definite poorvanga and utharanga .. but they are intermingled. So we can term it Misra Korvai. Whatever we name it, more than the name it is the beauty of the korvai that is more important and the way in which it is presented and made acceptable.

J.Balaji

Nick H
Posts: 9121
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
x 904
x 25

#65

Post by Nick H »

That is a fantastic korvais!

I know that if I heard it in a concert I would completely fail to understand it... but seeing it written and understanding its derivation.....

vasanthakokilam
Posts: 10933
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
x 11
x 1

#66

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Balaji, that is a nice and clear explanation. Even I understood it. ;) When you get a chance, please upload an audio of you playing that. Thanks.

drshrikaanth
Posts: 4066
Joined: 26 Mar 2005, 17:01

#67

Post by drshrikaanth »

mridhangam wrote:-------

we can slightly modify the above korvai in such a way that keeping the poorvanga constant we can keep on chaning the madyanga and utharanga in umpteen number of ways. (May be according to talaprastara we can arrive at the exact number of varieties for which our sbala can be of immense help). I shall give you another example of how to change the 3 * 5 and 3 * 6 and 3 * 7 alone from the above keeping the utharaanga constant that is 3 * 8 and 3 * 9 and 3 * 10.

Dhi , tan,gita thaka tharikitathaka thom , tha , thom , kita thaka
Dhi , tan,gita thaka tharikitathaka thom , tha , thom , kita thaka tharikita
Dhi , tan,gita thaka tharikitathaka thom , tha , thom ,

thakadimi
thadikitathom
thadee, kitathom , , , (4+5+6)

Tha Dhim , Thadiginathom
Tha Dhim , Thadiginathom
Tha Dhim , Thadiginathom (3 * 8)

Dhi , tan,gita thaka tharikitathaka thom , tha , thom , kita thaka
Dhi , tan,gita thaka tharikitathaka thom , tha , thom , kita thaka tharikita
Dhi , tan,gita thaka tharikitathaka thom , tha , thom ,

Thadikitathom
thade , kitathom
tha, de , kitathom , , , (5+6+7)

Tha , Dhim , Thadiginathom
Tha , Dhim , Thadiginathom
Tha , Dhim , Thadiginathom (3 * 9)

Dhi , tan,gita thaka tharikitathaka thom , tha , thom , kita thaka
Dhi , tan,gita thaka tharikitathaka thom , tha , thom , kita thaka tharikita
Dhi , tan,gita thaka tharikitathaka thom , tha , thom ,

Thade , kitathom
tha, de , kitathom
tha, de , kita, thom , , , (6+7+8))

Tha , , Dhim , Thadiginathom
Tha , , Dhim , Thadiginathom
Tha , , Dhim , Thadiginathom ||Tha (3 * 10)
Balaji
First of all congratulations on doing a great job. You explain and play very well.

Just heard your nice audio demos. One observation in this second pattern vs. your audio demo. (33-2). In the last third cycle, The (6+7+8) pattern you have shown here (which I have highlighted) is not the same as what you have played. you have played "tatomtadiginatom ta,,", This is strictly not in keeping with the pattern in the other 2 cycles. Is that OK?

Keep up your good work.

mridhangam
Posts: 976
Joined: 04 Dec 2006, 13:56
x 4
x 1

#68

Post by mridhangam »

Tha, de, kita, thom is for understanding i have given above though it can be played also. Thade, kitahom tha, de, kitahom and tha, de, kita, thom is the logical order and hence i have give it like that. But while recording Naturally it came to me as Thathom, thadiginathom thathom, thadiginathom thathom, thadiginathom which is also another variety of 8. May be i should change it. It is only a performace blue i think.
Anyway thanks for letting me know. I shall be careful to play what is written.

Thank you
J.Balaji

drshrikaanth
Posts: 4066
Joined: 26 Mar 2005, 17:01

#69

Post by drshrikaanth »

mridhangam wrote:But while recording Naturally it came to me as Thathom, thadiginathom thathom, thadiginathom thathom, thadiginathom which is also another variety of 8. May be i should change it. It is only a performace blue i think.
Thanks for the clarification Balaji. You actually played " tatomginatom ta,dimginatom ta tom tadiginatom tam," which did not have the symmetry of the previous cycles as also being different, and hence my question.

I also notice you have used dim and tom interchangeably while playing. Is that usual practice- like dim, tom and nam being used interchangeably (all having 2-subbeat length and being vibrating sollus, nam is a bit of both?).

drshrikaanth
Posts: 4066
Joined: 26 Mar 2005, 17:01

#70

Post by drshrikaanth »

Another related question about sollus. The chaapu. Is that what you play as tAngu (.g tadinginatom tadinginatom tadinginatom ta~ng). What is a full and half chaapu?

mridhangam
Posts: 976
Joined: 04 Dec 2006, 13:56
x 4
x 1

#71

Post by mridhangam »

Dr.Shrikanth Sir,
Both full chaapu and arai chaapu can be used. I have mostly used Arai Chaapu.

I am shortly uploading the audio samples of the korvais mentioned above from posts after 33.
J.Balaji

mridhangam
Posts: 976
Joined: 04 Dec 2006, 13:56
x 4
x 1

#72

Post by mridhangam »

The audio samples of the korvais mentioned above after 33 are given below :-


Adi Tala Mohara (Pallavi.pr pls)
http://rapidshare.com/files/24943348/Ad ... _No-45.mp3

Dhruva Tala Mohara (Khanda Jaati Druva 17 counts total) First cycle 17 beats only farans. Only after that Mohara Starts.
http://rapidshare.com/files/24944088/Dh ... _No-45.mp3

Korvai as Per post No: 51
http://rapidshare.com/files/24944113/Ko ... _No-51.mp3

Korvai As per post No: 56
http://rapidshare.com/files/24944147/Ko ... _No-56.mp3

Please get back to me for any doubts upto this.

J.Balaji

drshrikaanth
Posts: 4066
Joined: 26 Mar 2005, 17:01

#73

Post by drshrikaanth »

Thanks Balaji.

Nick H
Posts: 9121
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
x 904
x 25

#74

Post by Nick H »

I have my doubts that the details of mridangam fingering is useful/appropriate to this topic.

As a mridangam student one would have encountered all the strokes sometime before even having even heard of a korvais.

Added to which, there will be differences between different schools and different artists (or different renderings even) as to the translation between solakatu and fingers, or ornamentation added.

I say 'doubts' --- in the spirit of conversation; I am happy if others disagree with me...

mridhangam
Posts: 976
Joined: 04 Dec 2006, 13:56
x 4
x 1

#75

Post by mridhangam »

Nick H I totally agree with you. There are absolutely differences in the way we utter the words or syllables and the way it is represented in Mridangam. Whereas the basic strokes are only 7 in mridangam and the combination it can produce are innumerable. What we utter is called "Konnakkol". That is y i mentioned in a different post that both my gurus Tanjore Ramadoss and Ramanathapuram M N Kandaswamy, did not allow me to play on the mridangam until and otherwise i got the three speed for a particular lesson orally. It is called "Konnupichu sollaradu" in tamil. The same difficulty we find in teaching children. when we say "tham" it can be played in two different ways. One is a combination of Dhin and Thom and another is just Chapu (both arai and full). That tham will differ according to the lesson and as per fingering combinations and end points. If the final syllable is ending in Tha (left hand) then the Tham will be played as a chaapu. If the final syllable is ending in Dhi (right hand) then the tham will be played as Dhin and thom combination. The fingering is also more of convenience. By this sentence i dont mean to say that dhin and thom combination cannot be played if the sollu is ending in Tha (left hand). It wont be natural and also immediately after tha we have to play dhin+thom combination and in third speed it wont look natural and also produce diffitculty in fingering.

Dr.Srikanth sir hope i have clarified on this point. Any further doubts you are most welcome.
Thank you
J.Balaji
Last edited by mridhangam on 09 Apr 2007, 07:27, edited 1 time in total.

msakella
Posts: 1936
Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16
x 1

#76

Post by msakella »

mridhangam wrote:my gurus Tanjore Ramadoss and Ramanathapuram M N Kandaswamy, did not allow me to play on the mridangam until and otherwise i got the three speed for a particular lesson orally.
Dear brother-member, mridhangam,
In the same manner, every music teacher must start with Chaturashra-jati i.e., ki-ta-ta-ka - 4 syllables per each second (of 3rd degree of speed) which is Maatra-kala - uttering ‘ki-ta’ along with the beat of the right hand followed by ‘ta-ka’ along with the beat of the left hand, to the aspirant whose instinct of Laya is at such a required level that he/she could finish it within one day only and start the 7 Jati-lankaras which he/she could finish them successfully within a couple of days. Unless the aspirant becomes able to spell out the Jati-alankaras in Ata and Triputa-talas in the 3rd degree, he/she should not be taught even the 1st Saralee-svara at all. If all the music teachers follow this we can maintain high-standards and , no doubt, many of the aspirants will become stalwarts. amsharma.
Last edited by msakella on 09 Apr 2007, 07:57, edited 1 time in total.

pallavi.pr
Posts: 83
Joined: 05 Mar 2007, 17:32

#77

Post by pallavi.pr »

Thx Balaji :-)
Will listen to the clippings and get back to you!

pallavi.pr
Posts: 83
Joined: 05 Mar 2007, 17:32

#78

Post by pallavi.pr »

Hello Balaji,

I just listened to all the clippings. So informative and educative. Thx a million!

One more request. It would be great if you could similarly record Thani's(Attatched Mohras also) in Mishra Chaapu, Roopaka and Khanda Chaapu Thalams.

2-3 in each. Like you have done for adi thala. You have given different combinations of the purvaanga and uttharaanga. Pls record some chosen 2-3. That wuld be more than sufficient!

We could start with Mishra Chaapu :-)

Also you have mentioned the 3 thala Korvai can be played in Thishram also. Could you pls record that in Thishram for us?

You do not know how helpful your service to music and to the rasikas is!

Awaiting the audios!

drshrikaanth
Posts: 4066
Joined: 26 Mar 2005, 17:01

#79

Post by drshrikaanth »

nick H wrote:I have my doubts that the details of mridangam fingering is useful/appropriate to this topic. .
I was not sure what prompted this. After seeing Balaji's reply, Im wondering if it had anything to do with my questions. ???

Balaji
Thanks. I see what you say about some solus being palyed/interpreted differently by different artistes. Does that mean tOm can be interpreted as dIm and viceversa. So the follow on question is can the be used interchangeably in korves without affecting the symmetry or ground rules in anyway? This last question is what I think makes it very releavnt to this thread. Iam asking as I want to make myself clear without doubt(If possible :) To a vocalist, it may not seem a big deal but I want to know it from the perspective of a persuccion artiste.

My thoughts were that the basic sollus(7) and the way they are played were unique.

An addon question- I will not belabour this point (If I need to, we can start another thread). The sollus jham, jhaNu- what are they? Are they variations and/or combinations of the basic 7 sollus?

mridhangam
Posts: 976
Joined: 04 Dec 2006, 13:56
x 4
x 1

#80

Post by mridhangam »

What others represent or practice about the sollus tOm and dIm i dont know. I can tell you how i will interpret these two sollus in mridangam or i can tell u how i will play. tOm as a single vibrating syllable can be played on the left hand side at the outer portion of the mridangam. As a thumbrule there is an easy method of playing thom. Just protrude your knuckles inwards and just strike the outer ring of the mridangam on the left side automatically thom sound will emerge since while you strike the knuckles on the outer ring automatillay the tips of other fingers will fall on the inner soft skin of the mridangam. Hence it will vibrate. tOm can also be played with Dhin combination. Dhin is played on the right hand side inbetween the outer circle and inner black circle. There is a small gap between the outer circle and the inner black circle. The Dhin is played there and it is also vibrating. tOm also can be played along with Chaapus. (We can call them Thaam also). Another Sollu which you have mentioned is dIm i take it as Dheem ? then it is RI as it is played on the right hand side on the black patch and a vibrating one. not a closed sound but open sound as being played for Tha Dheenginathom (7) etc. I dont understand your question about interchangeability and also symmetry in korvais with the above sollus. The symmetry is for Kanakkus only or for mathematics only. Symmetry has relevance only upto the point where we are forming mathematical patterns. If you mean playing symmetry and fingering technique to mean the same then we shall try to use fingering technique for playing on the instrument and not symmetry i think sir. Jham and Jhanu are just for the sake of beautifying Konnakkol sollukkattus or Nritya sollukkattus. Jham is almost equivalent to tom as i hv explained above. Jhanu can be played in mridangam in many number of ways:
1) Ta with thom + dhi
2) ta without thom + dhi
3) dhin with thom + dhi
4) dhin without thom + dhi

and so on.

Hope i have made myself clear here sir.
J.Balaji

drshrikaanth
Posts: 4066
Joined: 26 Mar 2005, 17:01

#81

Post by drshrikaanth »

Thanks for the elaborate answer Balaji. You have also nicely explained the fingering technique to produce the various sollus. It will be very useful to those who play mRdanga.
mridhangam wrote:I dont understand your question about interchangeability and also symmetry in korvais with the above sollus. The symmetry is for Kanakkus only or for mathematics only. Symmetry has relevance only upto the point where we are forming mathematical patterns. If you mean playing symmetry and fingering technique to mean the same then we shall try to use fingering technique for playing on the instrument and not symmetry i think sir.
Perhaps I was not clear enough. My question did not have anything to do with fingering technique at all. What I asked was this- in the pattern you have written, you have used tadinginatom (with dheem) whereas while playing(In the audio you posted), you have played tom in some places while playing dheem in others. (like tatomginatom tadinginatom tatomginatom etc). I asked if that is common and acceptable in practice.

Symmetry- will explain in the next post. Please feel free to ignore my question if for whatever reason, you think it is irrelevant.

mridhangam
Posts: 976
Joined: 04 Dec 2006, 13:56
x 4
x 1

#82

Post by mridhangam »

drshrikaanth wrote:My question did not have anything to do with fingering technique at all. What I asked was this- in the pattern you have written, you have used tadinginatom (with dheem) whereas while playing(In the audio you posted), you have played tom in some places while playing dheem in others. (like tatomginatom tadinginatom tatomginatom etc). I asked if that is common and acceptable in practice.
Yes it is very common to intermingle sollus to produce effects that is all. When you can play thadeenginathom in flat tone also and also using Deem also (what i have mentioned as RI as a vibrating sollu). This creates a very mysterious effect while listening. Anyway this is only as far as playing is concerned. The representation of the same sollu or a combination can be done in many different ways.

That is all sir.

I dont consider any question as irrelevant or to be ignored. I know how difficult it is to express in writing that too such a technical topic as this. Hence i will try to clarify whatever doubts that might arise in any of the Rasikas @org so long as i understand them and also as far as my limited knowledge can express it here.

Thanks again.
J.Balaji

drshrikaanth
Posts: 4066
Joined: 26 Mar 2005, 17:01

#83

Post by drshrikaanth »

As played by you in the audio sample for post 33-2 (2nd variety)

thakadimi
thadikitathom
thadee, kitathom , , , (4+5+6) (madhyAnga of first cycle)

----

Thadikitathom
thade , kitathom
tha, de , kitathom , , , (5+6+7) (madhyAnga of second cycle)

----

Thade , kitathom
tha, de , kitathom
tha de , tadiginatom , , , (6+7+8)) (madhyAnga of third cycle)

If you notice the end of the madhyAnga in the 3rd cycle, what you have played is clearly not in the same pattern as the previous ones. As shown by you in the post, it should be "tha , , de , kitathom". Instead of lengthening the first sollu "tha" to the lenght of 3 subunits, you have kept it as one subunit and filled the other 2 subunits with 2 sollus "ta" & "di" later on. That, to me appeared to disrupt the symmetry. I wish to know if this was just an unintentional interpretation or it is actually alright to play these variations in practice.

mridhangam
Posts: 976
Joined: 04 Dec 2006, 13:56
x 4
x 1

#84

Post by mridhangam »

The Korvai goes like this in 33-2 (2nd variety and not as you have mentioned sir)
Dhi , tan,gita thaka tharikitathaka thom , tha , thom , kita thaka
Dhi , tan,gita thaka tharikitathaka thom , tha , thom , kita thaka tharikita
Dhi , tan,gita thaka tharikitathaka thom , tha , thom ,

thakadimi
thadikitathom
thadee, kitathom , , , (4+5+6)

Tha Dhim , Thadiginathom
Tha Dhim , Thadiginathom
Tha Dhim , Thadiginathom (3 * 8)

Dhi , tan,gita thaka tharikitathaka thom , tha , thom , kita thaka
Dhi , tan,gita thaka tharikitathaka thom , tha , thom , kita thaka tharikita
Dhi , tan,gita thaka tharikitathaka thom , tha , thom ,

Thadikitathom
thade , kitathom
tha, de , kitathom , , , (5+6+7)

Tha , Dhim , Thadiginathom
Tha , Dhim , Thadiginathom
Tha , Dhim , Thadiginathom (3 * 9)

Dhi , tan,gita thaka tharikitathaka thom , tha , thom , kita thaka
Dhi , tan,gita thaka tharikitathaka thom , tha , thom , kita thaka tharikita
Dhi , tan,gita thaka tharikitathaka thom , tha , thom ,

Thade , kitathom
tha, de , kitathom
tha, de , kita, thom , , , (6+7+8))

Tha , , Dhim , Thadiginathom
Tha , , Dhim , Thadiginathom
Tha , , Dhim , Thadiginathom ||Tha (3 * 10)
If you find above the 6+7+8 is mentioned as thadee, kitathom tha, de , kitathom and tha, de, kita, thom and gap of 3.

Yes i have played the 8 in a different way instead of playing tha, de, kita, thom i have played thathom , thadinginathom which is also eight and as i have mentioned after playing 6 and 7 i got that as a natural pattern for 8 and not as mentioned above for the Korvai. Strictly speaking it is a mistake of representation but as far as the kanakku and eduppu and fillers are concerned it is perfectly alright. Symmetrically it may not be correct but kanakku wise it is perfectly correct and it is acceptable also.

J.Balaji

drshrikaanth
Posts: 4066
Joined: 26 Mar 2005, 17:01

#85

Post by drshrikaanth »

mridhangam wrote:Yes i have played the 8 in a different way instead of playing tha, de, kita, thom i have played thathom , thadinginathom which is also eight and as i have mentioned after playing 6 and 7 i got that as a natural pattern for 8 and not as mentioned above for the Korvai. Strictly speaking it is a mistake of representation but as far as the kanakku and eduppu and fillers are concerned it is perfectly alright. Symmetrically it may not be correct but kanakku wise it is perfectly correct and it is acceptable also.

J.Balaji
ide. idettAn nAn edirppArttEn :) Yes, thanks for clarifying. Of course, the kaNakku is perfect without a doubt.

drshrikaanth
Posts: 4066
Joined: 26 Mar 2005, 17:01

#86

Post by drshrikaanth »

Ok great. Now I second pallavi.pr's request.

Can the purvanga be patterned in other ways for Aditala korve? Please explain and provide audio sample. Also, kanakku-wise, the ones you have played will also fit rupaka tala. (8x3=24 avartas. Or variations thereof spanning a total of 24 Avartas) )Can they be used as such for rupaka tala?

rajumds
Posts: 712
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 11:16

#87

Post by rajumds »

Balaji sir, Amazing work. Thanks a ton

drshrikaanth
Posts: 4066
Joined: 26 Mar 2005, 17:01

#88

Post by drshrikaanth »

Balaji
I thought of a simple rupaka tala kOrve- is this ok?

Purvanga (spans 2 avartas)
tarikita tom, taka tatikita tom, kidataka tarikita tom,

uttaranga (spans 3 avartas)
ta , di , ginatom , , ,
ta, di, ginatom ta , di , ginatom , , ,
ta, di, ginatom ta, di, ginatom ta, di, ginatom ||

The whole repeated thrice.

drshrikaanth
Posts: 4066
Joined: 26 Mar 2005, 17:01

#89

Post by drshrikaanth »

Another simpler kOrve(but aesthetically not so nice due to repetitiveness of pattern in purvanga and uttaranga)
Spans 3 Avartasx3 times

Purvanga
tadiginatom tadiginatom tadiginatom

Uttaranga
ta, di, ginatom ta, di, ginatom ta, di, ginatom |

The whole repeated thrice.

Nick H
Posts: 9121
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
x 904
x 25

#90

Post by Nick H »

My guruji told me... any adi talam korva can be played for rupaka talam, in fact it teases the audience, as it does not come to samam first or second time, and they think you are making a mistake --- but third time it will some.

Whilst waiting in the car for 15 minutes today I thought to "reverse engineer" a korvai. I don't know if this makes sense to do this for analysis. There are very few that I have committed to memory, but this is our class 'standard' for a long adi talam korvais. I have no doubt Balaji will recognise it!

Whilst it looses beauty when rendered as three parts like this, It is not as bad as I thought it might be...

***First Part***
Tha Dhi Tha Kitathom
Tha Dhi Tha Kitathom
Tha Dhi Tha Kitathom

Dhi Tha Kitathom
Dhi Tha Kitathom
Dhi Tha Kitathom

Tha Kitathom
Tha Kitathom
Tha Kitathom

***second Part***
Tha , , , Dhi , , , Gi , , , Na , , , Thom , , ,
Tha , , Dhi , , Gi , , Na , , Thom , ,
Tha , Dhi , Gi , Na , Thom ,

***Third part***
Tha Dhi Gi Na Thom Tha Dhi Gi Na Thom Tha Dhi Gi Na Thom ,
Tha Dhi Gi Na Thom Tha Dhi Gi Na Thom Tha Dhi Gi Na Thom ,
Tha Dhi Gi Na Thom Tha Dhi Gi Na Thom Tha Dhi Gi Na Thom ||Tha

The proper korvai starts 'Tha kitathom Dhi Tha Kitathom Tha Dhi Tha Kitathom'

I have to confess to reversing that order because I fealt like it!

Nick H
Posts: 9121
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
x 904
x 25

#91

Post by Nick H »

drshrikaanth, repetition can work! My teacher gave a korvai for one of his student's arrangetrams, consisting only of the line Tha Dhi Ghi Na Thom.

It was for two kallai adi talam, and I think the first Tha , , , Dhi , , , Ghi , , , Na , , , Thom took up ten whole aksharas (tha one two three = two counts).

Each line would have been repeated three times, and the repeating progression would have been even, but I'm afraid I'm not able to reproduce it. And yes, it sounded good!

EDIT... no, perhaps each line, apart from the final one, was not played three times --- it would have gone one for an age.
Last edited by Guest on 10 Apr 2007, 02:01, edited 1 time in total.

mridhangam
Posts: 976
Joined: 04 Dec 2006, 13:56
x 4
x 1

#92

Post by mridhangam »

Dr srikanth sir and Member NickH .. i am extremely happy about the way this korvai session is progressing. By the way where is member VASANTHAKOKILAM ?

Dr.Srikanth's Korvai for Rupaka Tala is very nice. There is a suggestion there if you play the korvai in Madyama Kala it will be dull and drab. Hence i immediately thought of the korvai in Duritakala. It sounds nice and also for playing it will be gud. Just a suggestion.

Dr Srikanth
Can the purvanga be patterned in other ways for Aditala korve?
Kindly refer to other posts here where in i have mentioned about poorvaanga also. The base for Poorvanga is innumerable and they are called "Aasu". Based on this Aasu only we make korvais and set the utharaanga right.


nick H
My guruji told me... any adi talam korva can be played for rupaka talam, in fact it teases the audience, as it does not come to samam first or second time, and they think you are making a mistake --- but third time it will some.
Yes it is absolutely correct. the basis for this is anything we play in adi talam three times. so it is 3 * 4 combination. Anything we play in Rupaka tala is in chatusranadai so it will be 4 *3 always and both are same.

I have lots and lots of techniques for korvais and i shall unleash them one by one after the willing members assimilate.

There are different types of korvais :

1) What we have discussed earlier. With Poorvanga and Utharaanga

2) Poorvaanga, madyanga and utharaanga

3) Ascending or descending korvais

4) Trikaala Korvais

5) Nadai Korvais

6) Misra Korvais (Mixing Chatusra and at the end we can have either Tisra, Khanda Misra or Sankeerna). The advantage here being that we can take off whichever nadai we want after the end portion is any one of them. If the end portion is tisra we can take of Tisra Nadai and so on.

7) Then there are some korvais which start on samam and come to idam.

8) And there are korvais which dont start on samam means may start somewhere in the tala and fall on samam.

Will add to the list as and when i get some more out of research.

Audio Sample of Misra Chaapu will be uploaded shortly.

Thanks for the support
J.Balaji

vasanthakokilam
Posts: 10933
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
x 11
x 1

#93

Post by vasanthakokilam »

By the way where is member VASANTHAKOKILAM ?
Thanks Balaji...I am here, reading your posts and listening to audio uploads with full interest. Thanks very much for all the education.

We discussed before about a standard format for presenting the solkattus. Is it possible to capitalize the first letter of individual sollus? For example, present thadhiginathom as ThaDhiGiNaThom . That will help someone like me who is still trying to grasp all this. Also, since you mentioned durithakala, indicate that also using some notation/indication that is convenient to you. This way we can count the sollus and correlate with the mathematical pattern and the audio.

Thanks again.

mridhangam
Posts: 976
Joined: 04 Dec 2006, 13:56
x 4
x 1

#94

Post by mridhangam »

Now the uploads about Misra Chaapu Mohara and Korvai.

One is Traditional Mohara

http://rapidshare.com/files/25125787/Tr ... Korvai.mp3

Another is improvised Mohara

http://rapidshare.com/files/25125885/Im ... Korvai.mp3

Member Vasanthakokilam
Thanks for your reappearance. It is very difficult for me to type in alternating characters. I shall try my level best to do so. As it involves alternating between shift keys and other normal keys i am finding it very difficult. hence kindly bear with my notation type until i become familiar with it myself. The durita kaala is nothing but playing the same lesson in next faster speed then the total cycle of the korvai will be reduced to half. Assume if you play a korvai in madyama kala for 4 cycles the same thing played in next durita kala will be only 2 cycles. That is what i meant. As that korvai given by Dr.Srikant sir will be nice if it is played in durita kaala is what i meant and it was an observation and a suggestion.

J.Balaji

drshrikaanth
Posts: 4066
Joined: 26 Mar 2005, 17:01

#95

Post by drshrikaanth »

mridhangam wrote:Dr.Srikanth's Korvai for Rupaka Tala is very nice. There is a suggestion there if you play the korvai in Madyama Kala it will be dull and drab. Hence i immediately thought of the korvai in Duritakala. It sounds nice and also for playing it will be gud. Just a suggestion.
Thanks Balaji. Would you kindly play and upload the audio sample of this?

mridhangam
Posts: 976
Joined: 04 Dec 2006, 13:56
x 4
x 1

#96

Post by mridhangam »

drshrikaanth wrote:
mridhangam wrote:Dr.Srikanth's Korvai for Rupaka Tala is very nice. There is a suggestion there if you play the korvai in Madyama Kala it will be dull and drab. Hence i immediately thought of the korvai in Duritakala. It sounds nice and also for playing it will be gud. Just a suggestion.
Thanks Balaji. Would you kindly play and upload the audio sample of this?
Sure. Shortly.

But there is a small suggestion to your korvai.

It has to be TaKiTa Thom and not TaRiKiTa thom as mentioned in your post. It might have been a typo. But on a second thought i found that TaRiKiTa thom also fits into two cycles but uttering the sollus will be a little difficult. Hence i make this modification and render two speeds.

TaKiTa Thom
ThaKaThaKiTa Thom
ThaKaDiKu ThaKiTa Thom

(Vasanthakokilam Does it read nice for you now ? But it consumes time.... hahahahah anyway I shall try to encode like this as far as possible)

can be fit into two cycle of Rupaka tala

and your utharaanga is simply perfect and gud.

I shall upload the audio with madyama kala and durita kaala soon.

J.Balaji
Last edited by mridhangam on 10 Apr 2007, 06:55, edited 1 time in total.

vasanthakokilam
Posts: 10933
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
x 11
x 1

#97

Post by vasanthakokilam »

>(Vasanthakokilam Does it read nice for you now ? But it consumes time.... hahahahah anyway I shall try to encode like this as far as possible)

Yes, Balaji.. It reads very nicely. I appreciate the extra effort very much. Here are few other proposals which may be less time consuming. Something like this: tha ka di ku tha ki ta thom ( single space sollu separation and three spaces for separating the logical groups ) or tha-ka-di-ku tha-ki-ta thom

Please pick the one most convenient to you. Thanks.

pallavi.pr
Posts: 83
Joined: 05 Mar 2007, 17:32

#98

Post by pallavi.pr »

Thx Balaji.

With referrence to #92, I am in awe wrt the diffferent kinds of korvais existing! so nice to know about this! It indeed would be great if you could give us an example of each type of korvai you have mentioned in the form of audio clippings and kindly upload it for us. No hurry, when you can make some time from your schedule! :-) But will be eagerly awaiting the links!

Thx for the mohras in MC. Will listen to them and get back!

Also, what is Duritha kalam?

mridhangam
Posts: 976
Joined: 04 Dec 2006, 13:56
x 4
x 1

#99

Post by mridhangam »

pallavi.pr wrote:Also, what is Duritha Kalam?
Durita kaalam is nothing but faster speed.
There are Vilamba kaalam slow speed
Madyama kaalam - medium speed
and Durita kaalam - Faster Speed.

Ati vilamba kaalam and Ati durita kaalam also are there.

As i have mentioned elsewhere in this article Vilamba kaalam means 1st speed in first speed there is one syllable per beat. Madyama kaalam means 2nd speed where there are two syllables per beat. Durita Kaalam means 3rd speed where there are 4 syllables per beat. The Rupaka tala korvai i might play will be in 4th speed where it will have 8 syllables per beat. I should have mentioned it as ati durita kaala.(The durita kaala i mentioned above is only indicative of faster speed without bothering too much about the technicalities.) May be msakella sir will throw some light on different speeds and the technicalities involved in them.

Thank you
J.Balaji

pallavi.pr
Posts: 83
Joined: 05 Mar 2007, 17:32

#100

Post by pallavi.pr »

Thx Balaji for the Gyaan on Duritha Kaalam!

Post Reply