sangitha kalanidhi 2024

[kvchellappa]

MS was free to do what she loved to do, not what some pathetic Krishna deems right. Bhaja Govindam will not appeal to one who has gone perverse. We will call out his venom and malice, not try to teach him. He thinks that he has got the ultimate wisdom and the last world on anything. The way he has been misinterpreting Thyagaraja, MS, Bhakti in CM and our culture and its preservation, he is incorrigible and we need have no truck with him one way or another. It is enough to express in strong words with no holds barred, in the same manner as he goes about viciously, our objection to his tirade.

[ramamatya]

Thumbs Up

[sam]

Malladi Brothers -
samayamu thelisi -
asaveri -
https://youtu.be/nLEJV1UO_ow?si=10OlWrc0Vz2mMxz5

How does it matter –
whether a mad man, hearing an excellent poetry, enjoys it or not?
whether large, blind eyes are fully open or not?

whether, in the Muslims’ street,
one performs elaborate ‘pAnaka pUja’
to a brAhmaNa (or wise man) or not?

whether that owner of great wealth, which is not donated, survives on the Earth or becomes a ghost?
whether that kRti which is not on SrI rAma - the Lord praised by this tyAgarAja, is sung or not?
whether such human birth, bereft of devotion, at his heart, to Lord SrI rAma, is taken or not?

[shankarank]

It's a smooth way to make Hindus religiously agnostic, atheist, and then convert to Abrahamic religions.

I hate myself for being an agnostic, but it is a done deal; the educational and work environs are to blame. I cannot bring myself to be ritualistic or even watch out for Ammavasais or Vaikunta ekadasis or even go to temples on visesha days etc. It's good that I never transitioned into an atheist, rescued before the change.

But how many are able to do that?

If you read my entire post, what I mean to convey was it is some form of theism not atheism that we need to more concerned about. If your education and work environs created some temporary outlook that made you agnostic, that is a valid journey to pass through. That is in your domain at least. If the same education, work culture, and awareness, well read roundedness , outlook etc., did not give you enough to analyze what other faiths are about and made you diffident enough to not only convert, but then adopt a vicious attitude towards the native faith of your birth, that is a problem for the country and civilization.

[sam]

Theism, atheism, agnosticism,
and to add to the medlee,
hedonism, opportunism and philistinism. In the garb of Globalism...Pan Islamism.,jehadism
.
Namaste Sada Vatsale
Matrubhume

This sanskrut song / poem is not at all communal,
it is not provocative either

.
https://youtu.be/ncAybCqTnec?si=VU0j8KOCv18YkLTO

namaste sadā vatsale mātṛbhūme
tvayā hindubhūme sukhaṁ vardhitoham

mahāmaṅgale puṇyabhūme tvadarthe
patatveṣa kāyo namaste namaste ||prabho śaktiman hindurāṣṭrāṅgabhūtā

नमस्ते सदा वत्सले मातृभूमे
त्वया हिन्दुभूमे सुखं वर्धितोहम् ।

महामङ्गले पुण्यभूमे त्वदर्थे
पतत्वेष कायो नमस्ते नमस्ते ।।१।।

प्रभो शक्तिमन् हिन्दुराष्ट्राङ्गभूता
इमे सादरं त्वां नमामो वयम्

त्वदीयाय कार्याय बध्दा कटीयं
शुभामाशिषं देहि तत्पूर्तये ।

अजय्यां च विश्वस्य देहीश शक्तिं
सुशीलं जगद्येन नम्रं भवेत् श्रुतं चैव यत्कण्टकाकीर्ण मार्गं स्वयं स्वीकृतं नः सुगं कारयेत्

समुत्कर्षनिःश्रेयस्यैकमुग्रं परं साधनं नाम वीरव्रतम् तदन्तः स्फुरत्वक्षया ध्येयनिष्ठा हृदन्तः प्रजागर्तु तीव्रानिशम् ।
विजेत्री च नः संहता कार्यशक्तिर् विधायास्य धर्मस्य संरक्षणम् । परं वैभवं नेतुमेतत् स्वराष्ट्रं समर्था भवत्वाशिषा ते भृशम् ।।३।।.
O Loving Motherland!
I always bow to you.
you have brought me up in happiness.
May my life, O great and blessed Holy Land,
be laid down in Thy Cause.
I bow to you mother again and again.

We the children of the Hindu Nation bow
to Thee in reverence,
O Almighty God.
We have girded up our loins to carry on Thy work.
Give us Thy holy blessings for its fulfilment.
O Lord! Grant us
such might as no power on earth
can ever challenge,
such purity of character as would command the respect of the whole world and
such knowledge as would make easy
the thorny path that we have voluntarily chosen.

[Pratyaksham Bala]

Theism, atheism, agnosticism,
and to add to the medlee,
hedonism, opportunism and philistinism. In the garb of Globalism...Pan Islamism.,jehadism

The prominent one is missing.

नमस्ते सदा वत्सले मातृभूमे
त्वया हिन्दुभूमे सुखवं वर्धितोऽहम्।

Convenient translation.

[sam]

Please see the video. It has a better translation.
We should perhaps add cynicism to th3 list.

[vgovindan]

Just look up the Tamil meaning of 'parochialism' in Google- it is பார்ப்பனியம்.
Now you know the answer for all 'why's.

[kvchellappa]

The word origin is; "The word "parochialism" comes from the Late Latin word parochia, which means "of a parish". A parish is a small administrative district within a Christian church."
Some wise krishna must have taken Brahmin as Indian equivalent of Parish and added the meaning. Google and Wikipedia are no definite authority.
The OED meaning is:"the fact of only being interested in small issues that happen in your local area and not being interested in more important things." That is the current usage.

[sam]

HRA was a famous revolutionary organization which believed in armed movement to overthrow the British colonial rule and rejected the Gandhian path.
Sachindranath sanyal, a brahmin, was the ideologue .he was involved in karachi conspiracy case and was sent to andamaan cellular jail.
.
Bhagat Singh was a famous member of HRA. While in prison before he was hanged , he wrote a book ' why I am an atheist'.
His main grouse is against the karma theory.


There is no karma theory and cycle of birth and death in vedic religion.
Vedic religion does not even have monotheistic super god.

Upanishads also did not endorse karma theory. But tended towards Monism.
That is vedanta which evolved into Buddhism.
Buddhism was atheistic
.It preached ethics only.
It did not promise rewards.
jainism only preached the concept of karma theory and rejection of God.
This cycle of birth and death has seeped into the mental make up of the entire country. .
Christianity accepted most concepts of buddha
And re-introduced the concept if God, hell and heaven.
..but a deep study says Kingdom of God is within you.

which is the best motto?
" i do not want heaven through renunciation but will find heavenly pleasure through service to my breathern.'
That is RSS motto.

Here is an excerpt. From Bhagat singh book.
Quoting.
*Then I joined the Revolutionary Party.
The first leader I met had not the courage to openly declare himself an atheist. He was unable to reach any conclusion on this point. Whenever I asked him about the existence of God, he gave me this reply: “You may believe in him when you feel like it.”
The second leader with whom I came in contact was a firm believer. I should mention his name. It was our respected Comrade Sachindara Nath Sanyal.
He was sentenced to life imprisonment in connection with Karachi conspiracy case.

Right from the first page of his only book, ‘Bandi Jivan’ (Incarnated Life) he sings praises to the Glory of God. See the last page of the second part of this book and you find praises showered upon God in the way of a mystic. It is a clear reflection of his thoughts.
According to the prosecution, the ‘Revolutionary Leaflet’ which was distributed throughout India was the outcome of Sachindara Nath Sanyal’s intellectual labour.
In that leaflet, one full paragraph was devoted to the praises of God and His doings which we, human beings, cannot understand. This is sheer mysticism. What I want to point out is that the idea of denying the existence of God did not even occur to the Revolutionary Party.
The famous Kakory martyrs, all four of them, passed their last day in prayers.
Ram Parshad Bismal was a staunch Arya Samaji.
In spite of his vast studyies in Socialism and Communism, Rajan Lahiri could not suppress his desire to recite hymns from Upanishads and Gita.
There was but only one person among them who did not indulge in such activities. He used to say, “Religion is the outcome of human weakness or the limitation of human knowledge.” He is also in prison for life. But he also never dared to deny the existence of God.".
..You, the Hindus, would say: Whosoever undergoes sufferings in this life, must have been a sinner in his previous birth.

It is tantamount to saying that those who are oppressors now were Godly people then, in their previous births. For this reason alone they hold power in their hands


Most of those 1900-1930 revolutionaries, were Theists.
..except Savarkar who was an agnostic and who considered all the spiritual, literary, cultural, religious movements in INDIA as its treasure including Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism, Lingayat sect, caarvaka arheists,
And tribal deities and Naaga worshipers.
These differences pose a threat to Hindu Raashtra .
He pleads for sinking all those minor differences
and forge a strong territorial national identity.
.

[kvchellappa]

"There is no karma theory and cycle of birth and death in vedic religion."
This is incorrect. Upanishads which are an integral part of Vedas, Brahma Sutras which summarise cryptically the Upanishads, and the Bhagavad Gita which is a more lucid summary incorporating most thoughts prevalent at the time cover Karma and rebirth, and liberation from the cycle.

[sam]

Respected Chellappa Sir ,
Not in Rugveda. 2000 BC
Not in upanishads. 700 Bc.
Not even in Gita.
God reincarnates. Not humans.
.
Only Sankara says..600 AD
Punarapi jananam
Punarapi maranam
Punarapi janani jadare sayanam
....iha samsàre..
Krupaya paale paahi muràre.
It is a late development possibly in Gupta era
.
May I have standard references from rugvedic, upanishad, aadanyyani?
.
Ofcourse, its purpose was to instil good condzct

[vgovindan]

Sam,
Your query is like a person, standing before a sky scraper, asking - 'where is the foundation for this building?' This 'karma theory' is so fundamental to Sanatana Dharma that I am perplexed what to show and what not. The whole theory of Atman (self), which is fundamental for Upanishads, is based on rebirth problem. The concept of panca kOsha - five sheaths, saMskara, vAsana, saMsAra, mAyA, etc are meant to deal with karmic theory. Please read Gita and Upanishads again.

अनुपश्य यथा पूर्वे प्रतिपश्य तथापरे ।
सस्यमिव मर्त्यः पच्यते सस्यमिवाजायते पुनः ॥ ६ ॥

KaThOpanishad 1.1.6 - please find out the meaning of 'ajAyatE punaH'.

त्रिणाचिकेतस्त्रिभिरेत्य सन्धिं त्रिकर्मकृत्तरति जन्ममृत्यू ।
ब्रह्मजज्ञं देवमीड्यं विदित्वा निचाय्येमाँ शान्तिमत्यन्तमेति ॥ १७ ॥

kaThopanishad 1.1.17 - please find out the meaning of 'tarati janma mRtyu'.

[ramamatya]

Respected Chellappa Sir ,
Not in Rugveda. 2000 BC
Not in upanishads. 700 Bc.
Not even in Gita.
God reincarnates. Not humans.
.
Only Sankara says..600 AD
Punarapi jananam
Punarapi maranam
Punarapi janani jadare sayanam
....iha samsàre..
Krupaya paale paahi muràre.
It is a late development possibly in Gupta era
.
May I have standard references from rugvedic, upanishad, aadanyyani?
.
Ofcourse, its purpose was to instil good condzct

What authority do you have to say the concepts are NOT mentioned in the Vedas, Upnaishads etc? Have you read all of them? Or have you read their silly Western interpretations? It's really irritating you writing irrelevant and endless posts and going on tirelessly arguing like the missionaries about such high level sacred texts, trying your best to stir up some controversy or the other. This guy seems to have some serious vicious intentions. Ignoring is best.

[sam]

Respected Govindan Sir,
I am indebted to you for your tremenous work of Thyaagaraja Vaibavam.
Also Shyaamakrushna vaibavam. With all due respect, i beg to differ about karma theory in vedic literature..
.
I am part christian on my mother's side and part tamil maadhwa in my father's side. I find great similarity between St.Mathew /syrian catholic Christianity and Maadhwa sampradaya.
I am basing my understanding on MAADHWA teachings.
..
Vedas can be Rug veda, Yajur veda, saama veda and atharva veda.
Each veda has its own samhitha, brahmana, aaranyaka and upanishads.
Upanishads themselves are many and in a way differing between themselves. Though they are veda-antham. Final statements.
It was all closed with the arrival or evolution into Buddhism...600 B.C...

Both Buddhism and Jainism were propounded by kshatriyas.
The central issue for buddhism was ETHICS , especially the question of non violence.
The extreme non violence of jainism made people keep away from agriculture even, because, ploughing the field may kill ,many jeevans. Hence they tended to life of food gatherers.
Jeeva kaarunyam is very noble indeed but rugvedic hymn is never anti-life. It asserts the importance of food.' annaadh jaayathe sarvam.'rug vedic ritual was not against slaughtiring animals for food and rituals. It was not against liquir soma bhanam.

The preoccupation of social workers and nation builders is not the liberation of their soul from life cycle.

A social organization needs the guidance of ethical intelligensia and scientists, valarous kshatryas to eliminate local criminals and external marauders, it needs producers and distributors of necessities of life (vaisyas)and also ordinary helpers without any special skill.

Gita enjoins us to do our swadharma. Swadharma is the skill which can be best done by one.
It is not a question of birth.

Chaatur varnam mayaa shrushtitham, guna thraya .
The Lord himself disowns the results.
All societies are based on this grouping.
There is no FIFTH group.
Varna is based on the role played by an individual in society.
.
Extreme non violence is helpless against external marauders.
That is why absolute buddhism, jainism, christianity and quakerism is impractical for social well being
Without a danda of punishment in the background for ' parithranaaya saadunam, vinaasaya cha dzshkrutham'. society is not possible.

Though upanishads are nearly 3000 years old, we needed gita bhashyam fiest by Sankara(600 AD), Raamanuja(1000 AD) and finally by Maadwa in 13800 AD.
...
DWAITHAM propunded by Madhwacharya , i would venture to say, is the main reason how Hinduism is surviving tiday.
Ir was Maadwam which spearheaded the Bhakrhi movement as a political force behind the vijayanagar empire.

It is really the best interpretation. IT IS MONISTIC. It believes in the creator. It clearly differentiates individual jeevas. It rightly points out the influence of material world on individual human beings through sensory organs.
EVIL is done neither by GOD nor by material world.
It is done by induvidual jeevans.
Why does evil happen? Evil occurs done by jeevan, driven by kaamam, krodham, lobam, moham . All our spiritual teachers have repeatedly advised us .
Sankara also says this in baja govindam.
Renunciation by all cannot be the basis of a social organization and polty. It can be an attempt by individuals. .
Liberation, whatever it may mean, cannot be obtained by rituals andor]]aaja yoga but only by the GRACE OF GOD.
Dha.rma saastras are all creations of sunga and kanwa dynasties..post asoka reign.
In next post, I will try to state my understanding of Dwaitham.
Carnatic music began with Maadhwa sanyasins.
Entire Thyagaraja krurhis are 100 % based on Dwaitham

[vgovindan]

Sam,
We have already digressed from the topic too much. It is not advisable to discuss Vedanta and other topics here.

[sureshvv]

.
May I have standard references from rugvedic, upanishad, aadanyyani?

vaasaansi jeernaani yatha vihaaya...

how would you interpret this sloka from the Bhagavad Geeta?

[kvchellappa]

parochial from a usage in a book of 2017:
"a journey out of our limited and parochial views of reality, towards an increasingly vast understanding of the structure of things."
It means a narrow view confined to one's immediate concerns, nothing to do with priests.

[kvchellappa]

Mr. Sam:
Mr V Govindan has given some Upanishadic reference. Mr VVS has given a quote from BG, there are more in BG.e,g, बहूनि मे व्यतीतानि जन्मानि तव चार्जुन ।
Brahma Sutras end with: 'anavrittih sabdaat. It refers to cessation of births on liberation, on the basis of Vedas. (Sabda and Sruti stand for Vedas). This is based on the conclusion of C.U. na punaraavartate na cha punraavartate.
Also pl see:
https://www.quora.com/Do-any-of-the-fou ... ncarnation.
Are we discussing sangitha kalanidhi or sastra kalanidhi?

[sam]

sureshvv sir, Bagavat Gita, is part of Mahabharath. 200 BC. So it is not vedic literature..
VGovindan sir, ..I agree that neither this thread nor this forum is proper place to discuss philosophical issues.
Chellappa Sir I am countering TMK.
Carnatic music was begun by Maadhwa sanyasin and pontiff with explicit purpose of Bhakthi sangeetham.
Vijayanagar empire was inspired by sage vidyaranya. It was built as a rampart against Bahmani sultanate of upper deccan .1300 AD.
Bahmani sulanate itself was a breakaway from Delhi sultante of Thuglak.
It was vijayanagar which saved south india from jihadists.
The issue against TMK is political. I repeat, our country has suffered much due both to islamic invaders(1200 AD-1700 AD) and western colonialists(1700-1947)..
But primarily from islamic invaders. It still continues.
Colonialists, in a way, introduced modern science and technology. Freed Indian people both from brahminism and jihadism.
.
Dwaitham propounded and propagated by Maadhwacharya, 1300 AD is considered to have been influenced by Christian teachings.
Nothing improbable or to be ashamed of.
Christianity itself is based on Buddhism.
Afterall, the Bengali renaissance itself was a reaction to missionary work.
Please read about Dayananda saraswathy and Arya samaaj.
.
TMK issue is political.

TMK brand of 'embracing' islamist jehadists is suicidal
TMK has to be countered with Bankim, Savarkar and saints of bhakthi movement. and real revolutionaries and martyrs of Indian independence movement.
So this is as much about sangita kalaanidhi as about veda kalaanidhi.
..
Dont we all know that both Ramanuja and Maadhwacharya took
non -brahmins as disciples and fought against casteism, brahminism and untouchability?. The central message of Gita is karma yogam and Bhakthi yogam...swadharmam. Read Vinobha.
How can we have Carnatic music without Thyagaraja?
How can we have Thyagaraja without purandaradasa?
How can we understand bhakthi movement without rejecting mere rituals?
Is it not being stressed again and again by Thyagaraja?.

The need of the hour ,if not for over over 700 years since the islamic invasion is to cultivate territorial nationalism.
Where do we go after death? Who knows?
Aathma is jeevathma. But where dies it go?
.
Which is more important? To get out of rebirth or serve your brethern?
ThirukkuraL gives very clear ethical guidance.
Saastric rituals are poor substitute.
Please confine with vedic samhitas, brahmanas, aaranyakas and upanishads.
These only are vedic literature.
But who can claim to have read all these and understood? We rely inevtably on concise guidebooks.
Which is such a gujdebook for hindus?

[shankarank]

The levels to which theism can go!

https://x.com/1Anvar/status/1886264981706207693

We can choose to ignore the atheist and most of TN did that. But what was it that the theist was doing to fan the flame of atheism? At the end his own theism rejects music. Surreal was it?

[sam]

May I share excerpts from a fine article in swarajya?

Aravindan Neelakandan
Jan 15, 2025,
..
The first question that has to be asked is if any of the foundational sacred texts of India associate birth-based chaturvarna with Sanatana Dharma?
In the Shanti Parva of Mahabharata, Bhishma narrates how an ascetic who was proud of his own austerities and patience, was made to go to a person who traded forest products.

Sanatana Dharma was defined through the words of this very worldly trader known only as Tuladhara to a very spiritual ascetic Jajali thus:
Tuladhara the trader explained Sanatana Dharma to Jajali the ascetic.
Tuladhara the trader explained Sanatana Dharma to Jajali the ascetic.

‘Dharmam Sarahasyam Sanatanam Sarvabhutahitam Maitram’- the sacred core essence of Sanatana Dharma is a good harmonious fraternal relationship with all beings.
.
Manusmriti is not a core sacred text. It contains many discriminatory and unjust passages as well as real pearls of wisdom. When it comes to giving a definition of Sanatana Dharma, even this text does not define it as a system which follows those discriminatory passages. Rather it states clearly that speaking the truth in a way that is beneficial to all is Sanatana Dharma

What is ‘Sanatana’ in Gita?

The Bhagavad Gita uses the word ‘Sanatana’ seven times, twice by Arjuna and five times by Shri Krishna. Arjuna initially links ‘Sanatana’ with rigid family duty (kula-dharma, 1:40). Shri Krishna negates this, revealing the true essence of 'Sanatana', transcending such limitations.

Shri Krishna never associates Dharma with birth-based categories (jati or kula)) but instead emphasises ‘swa-dharma’, duty, based on individual nature) ’swa-bhava’.
Krishna uses ‘Sanatana’ to describe:

The eternal Self (Atman): Unbreakable, unchanging, and all-pervading (2:24).

Brahman (the ultimate reality): Achievable through selfless action which is Yajna (4:31).

Bijam - Primordial seed within all beings: The source of evolutionary impulse and intelligence (7:10).

Avyaktat: The undefined deeper reality behind the universe (8:20).

Jiva-Bhutah: The immanent Divine (Amsa) in all life (15:7).
Thus, those opposing progress and upholding practices like child-marriage and temple-entry restrictions, paradoxically claimed the mantle of ‘Sanatanis.’

How did this come to be?

Arya Samaj founded by Swami Dayananada Saraswati started most of the fights against social stagnation and the rights of the socially excluded communities.

The famous bill banning child marriages in India, the Sharda Bill, was brought by Har Bilas Sharda who was an Arya Samaji.
Swami Dayananda Saraswati, in his foundational text referred to Vedic religion as ‘Sanatana Nitya Dharma’. The book popularised the term among the masses. In his statement of belief, Dayananda Saraswati defined this ‘primeval eternal religion’ as being above all sectarianism.

Dayananada Saraswati's letter -all Hindus irrespective of caste have the right to study and recite Vedas. In modern times he popularised the term 'Sanatana Dharma.'
Dayananada Saraswati's letter -all Hindus irrespective of caste have the right to study and recite Vedas. In modern times he popularised the term 'Sanatana Dharma.'

However, when Arya Samajists pressed for reforms against caste inequalities through people’s movements and through legislation, their opponents also started calling themselves ‘Sanatani Hindus’
At the same time in a letter written to Hariprasad Mitra in 1893, he lamented that social stagnation and its malignant manifestations like untouchability had ‘degraded … our eternal religion.’ He blamed those who claimed themselves to be the custodians of religion but never did anything for the downtrodden.

[shankarank]

All this arya burya stuff is all colonial make up story - that Europeans, who were told world was created x-K years ago, suddenly appears older - and had to figure out where they had come from. Story changed from India as origin and shifted westward.

Look, there are some theisms that made God a public street artifact, making God an instrument of warfare and control! And we are told that our cultural practices are for controlling others!

I am reminded of an essay by Morarji , saying Hinduism instead talks about happiness or if you want to discuss Gita, it addresses the problem of mortality or death - this is how to properly characterize it.

Please confine with vedic samhitas, brahmanas, aaranyakas and upanishads.
These only are vedic literature.
But who can claim to have read all these and understood? We rely inevtably on concise guidebooks.
Which is such a gujdebook for hindus?

The term Vedic literature is an oxymoron. You can discuss religions in terms of their cultural impact , civilizational imprint etc. , but not the content. As I had said, without being before at the seat of guru, you don't have the adhikaar to parse the text using any other means. For e.g. I will cite one issue: The language as taught in school is false claimed a linguist and that very specifically applies here. If the meaning of vedas are no longer learnt and studied in the traditional parampara, so be it. Even according to the held notions, many Shakas have been lost.

There are enough spiritual leaders who can converse on the essence based on lived experience and traditions and sampradayas. We don't need to discuss any content here.

Same is true of music. You can learn from youtube some additional music, once past a lot of learning. But to get svaras as opposed to svarasthaana , you need to sit and hear from a Guru. It may be that you can enhance what you learnt from a performer by going to concerts.

TMK's entire discourse of Sangita Kalanidhi at the sadas, was done with a tone of belittling the term "sampradaaya", which he has been doing ever since he started speaking.

Wanting to show how this music is so modern, not ancient , only minted by haphazard musicians in 20th century as though that will move a bunch of people who have held back thinking, this is some old almanac or pattaam pasalittanam , to come and pay attention.

Ragas have changed, evolved , this and that and all this history discussion splitting hairs.

Dr. Sriram Parasuram's presentation on HM music and it's importation was lot more to the point , and oh boy , how many ragas like sahana kanada, aTaaNa kaanada, piyagada (bEgada) simply came in! All, what we consider the core of Carnatic music!

And Dr Sriram did cover Karnataka kApi and kApi, which was glossed over at the sadas , when Dr. Pantula Rama raised it, you hear the SK designate murmur something like, oh there are many different karnaataka kApis!

The thinker/writer in him does not see the philosophy. Discussing why there is so much confusion on kaRnATaka kaapi amongst the trinity , with darbar, kaanada etc., would have exposed the whole thing about ragas. It would make up and compensate for all the 10 day discussion.

And that thing happened earlier in MA covered here:

https://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=19144

- All searching for what is the right kAPi , instead of asking why it was so difficult for southern musicians to define and circumscribe one scale clad rAga for this mELa.

Finally they capitulate and simply adopt the HM kApi and make a CM version by avoiding the secondary notes of same variety.

On a side note: And when you look at references to oppari in that thread, you will understand how karma works and oppari comes into the MA sadas in a different form after so many years.

Look at the kampita gandharam in this rAgA , right at the outset in the kArvai for the opening shot of the pallavi itself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYrzulcpjEk - this is the new name for the rAga - yes kampita gandharam - only here it makes sense !

Here , the impeding D2-N2 is handled and see how that Gandhara sounds on the karvai for prANa -nAyaka a svaraksharam there too!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvn5HqC6qzM

This has been copy-pasted to KHP in the most unscientific way and they claim KHP has grown organically! Phew!

Indian rAgA music addresses the problem of semitones - in essence. When discussing vivaadi , a teacher recently narrated to me how semitones which are classified as vivaadi are considered enemy notes - as tamizh literature also uses the term pagai. Now you don't enter the enemy's house via the front door - so there are vakrams on ascent and approach from below on descent.

Hanuman's entry into Lanka is cited as analogy , where the city burnt down!

[sureshvv]

sureshvv sir, Bagavat Gita, is part of Mahabharath. 200 BC. So it is not vedic literature..

The Bhagavad Geeta captures the essence of the vedas & upanishads.

Sarvo upanishado gaavaha dogdha gopala nanadanah

[vgovindan]

Sureshvv,
I respect personal views/opinions of Sam. But, when he says things like the following quotes, I feel it is futile to argue. Further, his take on 'sanAtana' as some name - rather than a noun, meaning just 'eternal', or use of terminology like 'sanAtani' and 'brAhminism', is, to say the least, appalling.
'Maadhwacharya, 1300 AD is considered to have been influenced by Christian teachings.'
'...
cultivate territorial nationalism.
Where do we go after death? Who knows?
Aathma is jeevathma. But where dies it go?'
Good Luck to him.

[sam]

ShankaranK Sir,

Indian rAgA music addresses the problem of semitones - in essence. When discussing vivaadi , a teacher recently narrated to me how semitones which are classified as vivaadi are considered enemy notes - as tamizh literature also uses the term pagai. Now you don't enter the enemy's house via the front door - so there are vakrams on ascent and approach from below on descent.

interesting note on vivadi scales.
But, HM totally avoids vivadi scales.
...
.[b]sureshvv Sir[/b],
Gita indeed is our national guide.
Every spiritual and national leader gives his own interpretation...widely different. Sankara, Raamanuja, Maadwacharya, Bankim, Lokamaanya, Gandhiji, Vinoba.

It is post buddhist.
As I understand, it upholds swadharma. Its emphasis in on work ethics and bhakthi yogam.
It enjoins us to serve our society to the best of our ability - nish kaamya karmam. Without desire, avarice, hatred and malice.
Karmanyeva adhikarasthe, .
For, no one can claim to be sinless.
We have a nice and pithy slokam
कायेन वाचा मनसेंद्रियैर्वा
बुध्यात्मना वा प्रकृतेः स्वभावात् ।
करोमि यद्यत् सकलं परस्मै
नारायणायेति समर्पयामि ॥
kāyena vācā manaseṃdriyairvā
budhyātmanā vā prakṛteḥ svabhāvāt .
karomi yadyat sakalaṃ parasmai
nārāyaṇāyeti samarpayāmi ..
Whatever I do either by body, speech, mind or sensory organs, either with my personal knowledge or natural trait, I surrender and submit all to that to supreme divine Narayana.
.
when we do our duty sincerely, that itself is the reward.
.without a national territory, there is no security, culture and civilization.

When evil people mutilate the right and left shoulder of our motherland,
shall we just remain indifferent and bother more about our own salvation?
Gita asks us to throw away such bogus nonviolence.

There is a lovely passage by savarkar which I am quoting below.

[sam]

Excerpt from savarkar book on territorial nationalism.
Chapter-10
Buddhism - a universal religion

Buddhism had made the first and yet the greatest attempt
to propagate a universal religion.
'Go, ye Bhikkus, to all the ten directions of the world and preach the law of Righteousness ! '
Truly, it was a law of Righteousness.
It had no ulterior end in view,
no lust for land or lucre quickening its steps;
but
grand though its achievements were,
it could not eradicate the seeds of animal passions
nor of political ambitions
nor of individual aggrandisement
in the minds of all men to such an extent
as to make it,
safe for India to change her sword for a rosary.
Even then, to set an example,
did not India declare her will to 'take
more pleasure in the conquest of peace and righteousness
than in the conquest of arms.

'Nobly she tried :
Ah !
so nobly as to make herself ridiculous in the eyes of lust and lucre.

Had she not issued Royal edicts to the effect
that the very water be strained before it was poured out for horses and elephants to drink, so as to enable the tiny lives in the waters to escape immediate death ?

And had she not opened corn- throwing centres in the midst of the seas that fish be fed in the oceans of the world ?

Nor had the very fish ceased to feed on each other !

Nobly did she try to kill killing by getting killed - and at last found out that
palm leaves at times are too fragile for steel !

As long as the whole world was red in tooth and claw and the national and racial distinction so strong as to make men brutal,
so long if India had to live at all
a life whether spiritual or political according to the right of her soul,
she must not lose the strength born of national and racial cohesion.

So the leaders of thought and action
grew sick of repeating the mumbos and jumbos
of universal brotherhood and
bitterly complained :

Thus arose The Sacred GIta.

[sureshvv]

Wasn't Savarkar an atheist? Not sure he is the appropriate source for religious pedagogy.

[sam]

Sureshvv Sir,
Savarkar was not an atheist. He had deep reverence to upanishads, Buddhism, Jainism, puraanik religion, Sikhism and all ancient faiths of India. He resented jihadism . In the true spirit of some upanishads, he was an agnostic.

[Nick H]

Atheist, agnostic: one says no god, the other says I don't know... Whatever...

[sureshvv]

[shankarank]

Those are all people who talk the abrahamic language! Including journalists. The term atheist has to be interrogated between the person and somebody whom he selects as his preceptor. The latter need not be a person. Sometimes the former may seek to continue his traditional practices of his jAti or visit his ancestral place where his kul dEvata may be there.

So these media characterizations are meaningless!

Making one's beliefs public itself is non-cognizable, does not hold any validity!

[shankarank]

interesting note on vivadi scales.
But, HM totally avoids vivadi scales.

HM does not have scales. The sangita kalanidhi designate was right in pointing out that the HM musicians did not fall for Bhatkande's proposals.

In fact I would say that CM also does not have scales. It is only a pointer or method to make Siksha easier. Scalar rAgAs are not rAgAs, simply call them scales or some melodies if you will.

HM deals with semitones which are considered vivaadi in carnatic using the bhashanga method, so they didn't need this line of thinking.

Now once I heard Sangita Kalanidhi designate mention in one presentation that SSI defined SankarabharaNam avarOha as sa-pa-ri-sa, then it became clear that all semitones are pretty much washed out in "rAgAs". On the ascent gamakas are used to move the svaras upwards. S-N3 on avarOha is an anusvara. Imagine, we are talking about a janaranjaka raagam, one of the basic universal scale's treatment as a rAgA within CM.

Then there was a presentation by vidvaan Parur M A S - recently about a desika tODi vaRNam by Patnam where pancama is varjya. We know of how many sojourns of pancama varjya in actual modern toDi renditions in the manodharma sections?

It was thought that semitones near prakriti svaras sa, pa , M1 ( the M1-G3 pair) can be subtled using anusvaras and hence not specifically a problem.

But above two instances indicate otherwise and tell us that the musicians have gone to length to get rid of them.

kalyANi was rejected by vEnkata makhin. Dr HMB writes in his thesis that M2 and N2 the plain variety are like rahu and kEtu. So even though we have it sung now, the proponent of 72 scales himself had doubts on it. Here also ShaTja - pancama varjya prayOgas are galore!

Shanmugapriya - ok - our forum member RaviSri passes on the information that Vid. T. Brinda opined that only those that cannot sing varALi will sing this rAgA!

katham!! - jOli mudindatu.

We are SPB/Jesudas gen-ners , will lap up anything - that is a different matter. naam kETkirOm enbadal adu rAgAm Ahi viDumA?

[sam]

shankaranK Sir,
I sunmit that your post on scales and semitones would better fit in Raagas section. I have ventured to answer that in that
section. Please have a look.

[sam]

[i]Sureshvv Sir,[/i]
There are six major orthodox (astika) schools of Hindu philosophy — Nyaya, Vaisheshika, Samkhya, Yoga, Mīmāṃsā and Vedanta. Among them, Samkhya, Yoga and Mimamsa, while not rejecting either the Vedas or Brahman, typically reject a personal god, creator god, or a god with attributes.

[sam]

This about TMK approach to carnatiic music.
.In my understanding, pre-1200 AD, I(before Islamic invasion),indian classical music,was not exclusively devotional. It was used in plays.
.(evolution of Indian music- srinivasaraos)
.
Confining ourselves to Carnatic music kruthis only,
right from annamacharya (Thiruppathy), Vyaasa Raya. Purandaradasa and other daasa composers and singers,
(uduppi, Hampi and other temples in erstwhile vijayanagar empire which covered the entire draavida land ( the southern states of present day, Thamizh Naadu, KeraLam, KarNataka, Andhra and Telengana were considered as draavida desam - even southern Mahaaraasbtra and southern Orissa (utkal),)
--perhaps Dhakshinapadha in ancient times( 600-BC-Upanishad times).

Shyaama Saastry worshipped Bangaru Kaamaakshi
of Kanchipuram, Tanjore.,sang about Madurai, Trichy, Puthukkottai
Thyaagaraaja swami sang mostly about Saaketha Raama (ayodhya), and about kshetrams like Lalgudi, Srirangam, Kaanchi, Thiruppathy, Thiruvotriyur, kovoor, Chennai,Naagapatnam and oThiruvaaroor

srinivasaraos makes a startling observation that all the Thiruvaiyaaru kshetra kruthis of Thyaagaraaja swami were sung only after he returned from his tour after his seventieth year--(!), though he was resident of the place for nearly 50 years!.
He was so much totally immersed in Raama.

When we consider Muthuswami Dikshitar, all his kruthis are about sacred kshetrams and deities of Tamiuzh country .
Swathi ThiruNaaL sang about Padhmanaabha swami of Thiruvanantha puram.
All the composers sang on Hindu pantheon.
Do the deities reside outside this holyland?

Are we to label them as parochial?
-less philosophical?
-
Idol worship and associated kshetra worship and river,sea worship is nothing to be scoffed at.
Even the Sikhs, have their holy grantha saahib and amrithsar.
Christians do pray to icons and symbols.
Only this month, crores and crores have taken the holy dip in Prayaag of ancient ancient times.

We indians, reckon history not in mere decades and centuries but in kalpa and yugas.-(savarkar.)
.

'janani janma bhoomuischa , swargaadhapi gariyasi.'
--
When we worship our native land, it does not make us anti-internationalist.
-
From the concrete to Abstract essence.
That is the average path.
-
Every nation has its own sacred shriines, in their own national boundaries, historically formed.
-
Every Indian nationalist is therefore a theist- a believrr in Divinity.
only what he worships and serves is his motherland.

[sam]

https://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=36557
A quote from final chapter

Equally certain it is that whenever the Hindus come to hold such a position whence they could dictate terms to the whole world — those terms cannot be very different from the terms which Gita dictates or the Buddha lays down.

A Hindu is most intensely so, when he ceases to be Hindu; and with a Shankara claims the whole earth for a Benares ' Waranasi Medini !' or with a Tukaram exclaims

'my country! Oh brothers, 'the limits of the Universe — there the frontiers of my country lie ?'

[kvchellappa]

Mr, ram1999 wrote:
"Sanjay Subramaniam who is no less than TMK (except that he does not talk openly in public)"

Mr. Sanjay Subrahmanian has made this public statement in his book:
".. “The content I sing is primarily Hindu religious music. .. I relate to these songs on my own terms. .. When I perform these songs publicly, I have no agenda beyond singing itself. .. I am loath to pontificate on religion or spirituality just because I sing. Religion is largely a socio-political experience, and I find myself only at its fringes. .. Spirituality is deeply personal.. it is not something I can talk about, nor can I claim that everyone who listens to CM feels spiritual."
That looks to me to be honest and unexceptionable.

[shankarank]

.In my understanding, pre-1200 AD, I(before Islamic invasion),indian classical music,was not exclusively devotional. It was used in plays.

Hello! If you listened to the Sri T.K Murthy talk, in the early days of Thiruvaiyaaru pancaratna, they were singing gandhi-rATTanam kadhir weaving songs. He mentions that Thyagaraja Kirtanams did not come into pracharam ( circulation) that much.

During Patnam, Maha , Konneri times, they were still rendering Pallavis in Durbar of vassal kings. Kriti was a minimal preface if at all.

Forget SrI Dikshitar whom we lament did not have wide Sishya parampara and his kritis came to light much later etc., even SrI Thyargaraja kirtanams were almost a post ARI phenomenon.

But for agricultural produce of Tanjore region ( as per your definition, the sit and eat brahmins), we would not have gotten this Umayalpuram school to function and all the sangatis.

Dikshitar wrote in Samskrit , a non spoken language and had to head to Ettayapuram, where they could barely manage to publish his works that too a hit and miss accident. There also in the flourishing Kallidaikuricci , where the upper TamrapaRni flows where he could leave some followers.

There is no Bhakti movement in real Hindu country! North was an aberration anyways with British trying to take monopoly of opium trade in the country of Buddha!

All these are hoax , romanticizing histories, with categories invented by clueless third party observers.

There is only a sense of sacredness that was invoked in all activities , even material. Every trading outlet hung the pictures of deities, likewise we carry the sense that music is embodiment of Divine, that's it.

This text reading of the content of the kritis is a disease of the literate run amok!

[sam]

Shankarank sir,

There is no Bhakti movement in real Hindu country

Sir, you are belittling a glorious movement.
What you perhaps mean is that there was no such movement in tamil country. Defi itely wrong. It all began in 600 AD itself. Saivite Naayanmars and vaishnavite Aazhvars. There are some scholars who assert that the Bhaagavatha puraanam was the product of paandya naadu.
We had an uninterrupted hindu bhakthi tradition right from sangam era . Though it had four centuries of kalabra rule of jain dominance, it regained its glory in pallava era, grew greatly in imperial chola and imperial paandyan, vijayanagar rule, naik rule and then finally mahratta rule.
But for Ramanuja, there would not have been the message of reform.
Naik and mahratta regimes brought maadhwa sampradayam, the very essence of bhakthi movement.
Thyagaraja was a product of naama siddhantha movement, a bhajan movement by sridhar iyavaal.
Saiva mutts had a parallel continuous movement.
The British did not prevent anyone to pray as they like.
Tamil country set the standards for even deccan, in fusing music and devotion.





.

[shankarank]

All of them were part of a stronger ritual tradition. tEvaaram, divya prabhandam and even bhajana sampradaaya were all situated in the strong ritual culture and temple eco system, land grants and living culture. Today Bhajan sampradaya is a honed practice with it's own methods, traditions, accompanying rituals and so on.

Saiva tradition, and Vaishnava tradition are backed by equal amount of siddhantic works as much as devotional literature. And have their own Agamas for temple rituals.

You are the one imagining some movement because those who read revolutionary literature will see revolution all around in everything!

History of Colonial India in a nutshell - here you go:

Bengal and TN were the longest ruled by British and has produced the most colonized mindset ever in the people! Only saving graze in TN that tethered the people to roots are the samskaras and the temple culture.

You can easily see that Keralites, Kannada and even Nizam ruled Andhra and Tamil non brahmins ( those who are not affected by this politics) have had and continue to have strong cultural roots.

TMK is the product of that mindset that I mentioned in the first sentence.

That's all you need to know. Rest is irrelevant!

[sureshvv]

This text reading of the content of the kritis is a disease of the literate run amok!

Kind of like your posts here?

[shankarank]

Got irked with my post eh? Coz' I waded to describe your territory of people? Instead of guest appearance Ungal karuttu edaavadu irundal sollavum.

I have to run amok to chase those who run amok!

[shankarank]

Shankarank sir,

There is no Bhakti movement in real Hindu country

Sir, you are belittling a glorious movement.
What you perhaps mean is that there was no such movement in tamil country. Defi itely wrong. It all began in 600 AD itself. Saivite Naayanmars and Vaishnavite Aazhvars. There are some scholars who assert that the Bhaagavatha puraanam was the product of paandya naadu.
We had an uninterrupted hindu bhakthi tradition right from sangam era .

Sangam era poetry including the kappiyams had to be dug out by U. Ve. Sa since there is no accompanying ritual tradition that could preserve them using an oral/aural Parampara.

Now we have more evidence even in North:

https://indiacurrents.com/a-thousand-ye ... -ramayana/

the inscription confirms that processions around Rama-Navami took place in the 11th century. The inscription is the earliest archaeological evidence of the festival. The inscription provides evidence of devotional poems (stutis) being composed in praise of Bhagwan Shri Rama during the 11th century, predating the conventional date for the beginning of the Bhakti Movement in North India.

And are you telling me, the Rigvedic composers who wrote stutis on many devatas, rivers , there is no bhakti there?

Didn't Kaalidasa write stutis?

Doesn't PANiNi invoke mahesvara in his sutras? Don't you know grammar is sacred? navavyakarANa svabhAva is an attribute of the Lord and is there in Hanumat nAmaVaLi.

Those who are conflicted with usage of too much of grammar in music need to consider this. First thing you need to know about grammar is that it is sacred , before you actually know the content. If you imbibed the knowledge properly from a Guru, grammar is already there and taken care of, you don't need to categorize it separately.

If what you call as bhakti was ever present , where is the need for this "movement " stuff? Who invents such categories in the first place and what external lens and biases do they have?

This is just an imagined discontinuity by alien ideologues!

There are some scholars who assert that the Bhaagavatha puraanam was the product of paandya naadu.

SrI Adi Sankara has not quoted from Bhagavatam , but from all other puranas - based on a talk I heard on you tube by Svami Omkarananda in Sanskrit College. So a question was raised as whether this was composed by then or not?

As regards authorship of Bhagavatpada's works, literary evidence indicates it is in simple Samskrit which is a style dateable to when Kollam Andu was established and Malayalam came into vogue. If it came in the paramapara and attributed to him, we accept him as the composer , irrespective of who composed it.

In Guru Sishya Parampara of spiritual order, there is no difference between Guru and Sishya, we consider them the same.

We are not a history centric culture unlike the religions west of us.

[sam]

Happy about it.
Specifically, however, Bhakthi movement refers to ant-casteism and inclusion of dalits in hindu religious events and practices.
In the historic context,
in 600 AD, it was against the clan culture of kalabras. in tamil country.
In 1100 AD,it was against brahminical denial of religion to dalits and some common people.
In maadhwa times, 1300 AD,
it was to fight Muslim invaders .

[shankarank]

False. All so called castes , including fisherfolk have their own deities and continuously been able to invoke them autonomously, have their own priesthood. These are abberations due to conflicts within one particular sect that endeavoured to spread it's ideas.

[sam]

@shankaranK sir,
1100 AD cited in the link, is post-Ramanuja.
Kindly read about malkote temple in Karnataka and mandayam iyengars.
I think, there is a post on that in the lounge or tamil section. Pl read about sridhar iyaval and his times in Tamil section.
Even today, such things persist.
Something similar to race issues in far south USA.
Please get a translation of the works of Dasa minstrels, especially kanakadasa.
.
What you say about gods of various caste groups is very much correct to this day. That applies to even tamil brahmins. Even in cauvery delta, brahmin families have their kula deivams, all of them non brahmin gods.
.they are numerous and known as siru deivams or clan deities.
The characteristic feature was animal sacrifice. The jains and saivite and vaishnavite, ganapathy and subramanya temples totally avoid and ban animal sacrifice. Brahmins adopted this great feature of jainism and buddhism.
So also, saiva veLLaaLars.
There is a great passage about cruel vedic brahmins of those distant centuries getting ready for cow sacrifice. In MaNimekalai.
Quite possibly, many brahmins were
born to non-brahmin mothers and as caste is traced through father, many families are actually of mixed lineage.
To this day, cultivating and labouring castes worship KaaLi only.
Except when famous mother goddess shrines as at Madurai and Kanchi were brought into no animal sacrifice fold.
There is no animal sacrifice in churches.

1100 AD was a serious turning point in Indian history.
Because of Ghori, the great prathihara rajput dynasty which had protected
Delhi fell and thus began the fall of the North and even the deccan.
RC.MAJUMDAR.
I tend to relate Ramanuja's reforms with his awareness of what was happening in North India. All the great reformers concluded that India's fall to jehadists was because of caste divisions and untouchability.
We lost entire states like Bengal.

[shankarank]

You are asking Hindus and Indians in general to read some history?? What nerve? With what face you are asking us to read history? All we need to do is open the map of the world and look either side of India, we know ours and the world history!

Picture speaks million words!

I was raised part time by a Madva family and have vivid memories of their Pooja room as my mother had to work.

Don't tell me to read history!

[sam]

Very nice Sir. A pictograph of population of Delhi, UP,BIHAR,ASSAM,Bombay, and percentage of minorities in each region also helps.

[Pratyaksham Bala]

Also,
Goa, Kerala and NE region !