sangitha kalanidhi 2024

[sam]

@ram1999
Sir, Thank you. [
In Kanvhipuram conference,
I understand that EVR was complaning about VVS IYER, a great scholar, intrepid revolutionary, an associate of Savarkar in India House,
who was also a great scholar and lover of Tamil language, besides Sanskrit, Greek and Latin. He had translated kamban and vaLLuvar. I read a biograpjy of VvS iyer by R.A.Padhmanabhan.

iyer, a barrister and true cosmopolitan was slandered by EVR as practising casteism in his sermadevi gurukulam ,
VVS Iyer was a close associate of Subramanya Bharathy. who was much more of a social revolutionary than the scum of dravidian parties. EVR raised the same issue of proportiinal representation in congress leadeeship positions then echoing the justice parfy gang.
.
We learn that thiru. Vi.ka ( thiruvaroor KALYANASJNDARA MUDALIYAR) rejected EVR resolution. He was a mentor of Kalki.
Unfortunately, Rajaji failed to support VVSIyer,
The Dark Age in tamilnad began then .
.
It was rajaji's introduction of kulakkalvi scheme, studenfs to learn the profession of their familly, that turned
People of the state against him.

In fact Rajaji was also to be blamed, but for him Kamaraj wouldnt have lost elections in TN and the dravidians wouldnt have formed the government. He in a way was as reason too.

..
.
Yes. A sordid chapter. A blot on the glorious saga of Kalki Gardens.
If kalki had been alive then, ..he might have objected.?
.
Unbiased observers can confidently claim fhat not a single instance of caste violence, being perpetrated almost daily in this southern state is due to brahmins.
.
That is why the tmk variety of liberal left is just shallow and silly.
The Left is just a leftover lot today.
.
TMK should decline the award.
..

[rajeshnat]

The sisters respond to the head honcho. RajeshNat response is for the twitter.

When I was reading TMK and The Hindu , i was also running my mind on the Lok Sabha seats of Congress and DMK where I was thinking will TMK be fielded somewhere. For the last 12 plus years i am thinking one of the days for sure TMK will be a Rajya Sabha MP.

Now it looks like even RagA sisters are aspiring for Rajya Sabha . NallA kuduthaanga sisters till the last para in the twitter which they could have avoided like bring in new office bearers ... I am wondering who writes all of this for RagA in the background - not that I am saying the sisters cannot communicate well , it is the same suspicion and doubt that i have just like when TMK Said he wrote that big book on Southern Music all by himself.

In the last 4 to 5 days some of my relatives or friends have just casually called me with many from USA in the list. Just a casual conversation . They start the sentence athu Yaar avan per enna( some times telling Krishna some times not knowing the expansion of TMK) andha sisters per enna marandu pOchu, what is this controversy about Sangeetha kalanidhi . SOme of them siding TMK thinking he is right that politics and music are not related , Some siding with RagA. None of them know the history in the last 2 plus decades

OF course will they all listen by paying tickets to hear live carnatic concert ,they all can , so far I donot have that much hope . But who knows media has stirred this controversy with only 10 million new unwashed masses , but we still have 100 million more unwashed masses more in India, US and UK. The Impulsive and one sided - The Hindu and The twitter tweets can go on till IPL reaches the last 4 league which is another 3 weeks plus.

All said in todays world of arts especially fine arts , artists need to keep on stirring and to be in the news . I admire the courage of RagA sisters for most part. The mantra is newsmaker being in recurring limelight which is more important than finding ways to bring in a beautiful creativity in O Rangasayi ..... or a lengthy taanam with mrudangam in nattaikurinji.

[shankarank]

Music Academy now attracts enough attention, that it has felt the need to select popular performers as Sangita Kalanidhis to stay relevant in the public eye.

I am not judging if they deserve it or not. T M Krishna is popular across the media because of his dialogues, but many people still confuse him with T. N. Krishnan due to name similarities .

Says how popular Carnatic Music is with people at large. TMK is not that popular in spite of all the attention on him and all the controversies. In that regard, he is a good pick .

There have always been popular performers in the SK list, but a tradition like this also needs to be inward looking in selecting core people for recognition, from time to time. MA invented Sangita Kala Acharyas for this purpose.

But I don't see the Acharya awardees, on the main seat, moderating discussions. The role must be reversed, with SK(s) seated on the rows and Acharyas seated on discussions. I see SK(s) struggle to provide insights, as thinking about music is different from performing.

TMK template has been to attack this tradition citing lot of pretenses, like wearing Dhoti, Angostaram or Shawl, Silk sarees and sitting down. Carnatic musicians are the only ones going to be left with healthy knees, assuming they are also practicing, sitting down.

But we have seen TMK wearing the old Congressi like Shawl, some kind of Gandhi follower to send an image of the Independence tyAgi or leader.

Instead of lungi, he could have instead worn pant and shirt and demanded chair seating for artists - the common respectful attire in the majority audience as well. . Ippa ellorum pantu chattaitanE poTTukarAn.

Rajarathinam piLLai, niRka vaikkappaTTavar(made to stand), uTkAraNamnu(demanded to sit down) sonnAr. TMK could have averaged it out.

It has gotten to the level of EVR template doing provocative attacks and it is justified as people having thick skin otherwise which needs pricking!

Even Barack Obama has acknowledged that, in discussing the race issues, if you push beyond a point the other side will stop listening and responding.

If the atmosphere had not been this vitiated, it would have been nice to see the sisters bringing their point of view and having a debate. This is similar to Educational Campuses vitiated with ideological hard extremes. No education can happen.

But given TMK's level of sophistication, it is not easy for people to match it, with proper contextual responses.

Many Keralites staunchly believe communism was necessary at that time, even though it is an expired product now. Even democracy seems to have an expiry date on the horizon they say.

[ramamatya]

Carnatic musicians are musicians first; other identities, if any, come later. Musicians are mild-mannered and soft-hearted in general. Carnatic musicians, more so; most of them wouldn't even know to mumble anything in defense when attacked. All they know is to lament, all the while hoping the gods will protect them. N. Ram's use of strong and harsh words like "bigoted, casteist", among other things, does not apply to this meek and god-fearing community in any sense of the word.

My sincere advice to Ram: pick someone your size.

[sivakami]

While all the ruckus and heated arguments are going on between groups, saw in TMK's Facebook page, that he was going to perform (may have performed) in Indian Fine Arts Academy of San Diego on 24th Mar, in their 17th Annual Festival's Grand finale "Voice for All Times", with 2 violins and 2 mridangams...!!

[hnbhagavan]

TM Krishna has around 14/15 performances/lecdems in USA tour March 24- April 10.Let whoever talk about him continue with but he continues to provide Music and is invited in several places.During the past few days controversial statements ttributed to Sri TM Krishna is highlighted and Palghat Ramaprasad is the latest to express his anger.The two sides of Mridangam are indeed covered with goat or buffalo or cow skin as per Wikpedia.TM Krishna has stated this fact and got into controversy.
In today's world,you cannot express any unconventional views.
Some one said TMK should refuse the award,but MA would have taken his consent before announcing.
The number of very high quality students are already regular performers.He is very liberal in giving his music as teacher.
Irrespective of his views he desrves the award conferred by Music Academy.

[Nick H]

The two sides of Mridangam are indeed covered with goat or buffalo or cow skin as per Wikpedia.TM Krishna has stated this fact and got into controversy.

I have no idea in what context the statement was made, but it is a fact that a mridangam requires skin from three animals: goat, cow and buffalo. Many or most who do not play may not know the detail, but everybody knows it is animal skin.

[ram1999]

TM Krishna has around 14/15 performances/lecdems in USA tour March 24- April 10.Let whoever talk about him continue with but he continues to provide Music and is invited in several places.During the past few days controversial statements ttributed to Sri TM Krishna is highlighted and Palghat Ramaprasad is the latest to express his anger.The two sides of Mridangam are indeed covered with goat or buffalo or cow skin as per Wikpedia.TM Krishna has stated this fact and got into controversy.
In today's world,you cannot express any unconventional views.
Some one said TMK should refuse the award,but MA would have taken his consent before announcing.
The number of very high quality students are already regular performers.He is very liberal in giving his music as teacher.
Irrespective of his views he desrves the award conferred by Music Academy.

On the cow / goat / buffalo skin used in making of the mridangam. Heard an interview. He only seems confused and raking some controvery for media / public attention

1. what is the issue that has raised ? absurd and no clarity ...
2. The skin is being used which no one denies.
3. His point is the makers are not recognised ? this is a case in almost everything and that cannot be changed. It is the profession that the makers have undertaken and they are paid a proce for what is manufactured and sold. It is purely commercial. Are agriculturists adequately comepnsated whilst the profits are reeped by large super markets.
4. TMK then should sing without percussion accompanists. can he do that.
5. How many non bhramin artists has he trained and developed - he claims CM should reach the masses !!
6. How many of his accompanists are non bhramins ??? Infact he sings with only a set accompanists - are others not deprived of opportunities.

This guy is nothing but a rogue / mercenary working for some policitical / activists groups to cause disruption and create controversy.

True that despite all this he will continue to give concerts as long as they are listeners. HE IS NO DOUBT A DECENT SINGER BUT NOt A WOW ARTIST. A BIT OF A HYPE!

he is nothing but a fake!

[ram1999]

TM Krishna has around 14/15 performances/lecdems in USA tour March 24- April 10.Let whoever talk about him continue with but he continues to provide Music and is invited in several places.During the past few days controversial statements ttributed to Sri TM Krishna is highlighted and Palghat Ramaprasad is the latest to express his anger.The two sides of Mridangam are indeed covered with goat or buffalo or cow skin as per Wikpedia.TM Krishna has stated this fact and got into controversy.
In today's world,you cannot express any unconventional views.
Some one said TMK should refuse the award,but MA would have taken his consent before announcing.
The number of very high quality students are already regular performers.He is very liberal in giving his music as teacher.
Irrespective of his views he desrves the award conferred by Music Academy.

Is TMK the only musician who has imparted knowledge to others and made good singers. There are plenty more who are super great artists and who have developed great musicians. The issue is just not the music / teaching alone or being liberal. Being liberal also should have limits... in what you speak / profess.

[ram1999]

While all the ruckus and heated arguments are going on between groups, saw in TMK's Facebook page, that he was going to perform (may have performed) in Indian Fine Arts Academy of San Diego on 24th Mar, in their 17th Annual Festival's Grand finale "Voice for All Times", with 2 violins and 2 mridangams...!!

basically 6 animals slaughtered (min) - 2 cows / 2 buffaloes and 2 goats to make 2 mridangams which he is being accompanied. Plus horse tail hair of 2 horses used for the violin / bow and more

[sivakami]

@ram1999,
Ha ha ha!!
Or maybe his accompanyists maybe carrying special vadhyams having only synthetic materials exclusively for his concerts!!

[raviscn]

thought to share 2 cents.
1) I think some schools of CM in 20th century of music style emphasized more on the technical aspects including briga and explicit gamakas and the 'kanakku' etc. In summary the focus is changed to the raga or the form long back. They and many stalwarts in 20th century gave much importance to the technical aspects of music and naturally lyrics or content became secondary, though none spelt it explicitly. the emphasis or warning to enunciate the words properly to the students points out there is such a trend. (On a lighter note, can anyone understand what ssi or mmi or some stalwarts of 20th century sing at times? but does it stop us from enjoying it?)

2)arguing on that, the importance of instrumental music underlines to the fact that form is important. perhaps a knowledgeable person can infer the lyrics of some songs the instrumentalists perform, but its predominantly the music and its form are on the center stage there.

3) I believe Tmk extended this idea further. so, for him, form is of superior importance. If a person is an atheist, can't he perform? off course and the emphasize on the form by the greats of 20th century and instrumentalists provided a way for that!

4) About the issues he raised, which is not relevant? "Sabha system, its nexus to NRI money, and the danger it posed to the art itself. In various writings, speeches and public interactions, he criticised the Carnatic (or Karnatik, as he likes to spell it) music establishment for being Brahminical, elitist, exclusionary and snobbish." one can be dishonest and deny these, but truth is these exist. (https://www.newslaundry.com/2024/03/23/ ... tm-krishna )

5) continuing on #4, When many musicians openly praise the existing political regime and its deeds and accepted as norm it's obvious Krishna would receive criticism on his very position on them!

Krishna obviously concerned about the present political situation in the country(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqwlPqqcTKw) thought to merge the ideas I guess... But this is nothing new! 20th century greats like SSI, mmi, alathur brothers, MS and even ariyakudi had sung the "secular" songs. They have moved by the anti-colonial movements of the times. "Parukule nalla nadu" likes subryamanya bharathi krithis were sung regularly then for instance. new RTP pallavis were invented during this time praising/promoting the anti-colonial struggles. TMK had taken cues from that, or one can "defend" that he followed that tradition. Main issue is that Palakkad ramaprasad or ravikiran (who invented new ragas like ayodyam or nadendramodi or something like that), and other ultra rightists are irked by TMK's secularism and his attempts to question the appropriation of the music by ultra rights. as pointed out he was not ready to be silent on other issues also.

Now Ranjini Gayathri's letter cannot take seriously because of above.

a)Their claim that he ridiculed Thyagaraja or MS are not true. Ofcourse, he is not on same page with Thyagaraja's or others take on Rama etc. However, when the temple is opened at ayodhya (ofcourse after the violent ramajanmabhumi movement by RSS and destruction of temple by violating the constitutional principles), he chose to sing "Nadachi Nadachi" with the explanation of the lyrics. He was visibly shaken, and the rendering was supreme and captivating.

b) MS' great grandson himself said this on ranjini-gayathris statement wrt MS.
https://twitter.com/R_Induja/status/177 ... 68/photo/1

c)About vilification of brahmin community etc are too childish. anyone who has preliminary understanding on sociology or history knows that casteism is not uprooted in India. It still persists and continue to have negative influence in the society.
In the quest of democratize this space, one has to ask loud questions however uncomfortable they might be.

(one cannot deny this is a moving one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LchtvWC_BpE)

[shankarank]

1) I think some schools of CM in 20th century of music style emphasized more on the technical aspects including briga and explicit gamakas and the 'kanakku' etc. In summary the focus is changed to the raga or the form long back. They and many stalwarts in 20th century gave much importance to the technical aspects of music and naturally lyrics or content became secondary, though none spelt it explicitly. the emphasis or warning to enunciate the words properly to the students points out there is such a trend. (On a lighter note, can anyone understand what ssi or mmi or some stalwarts of 20th century sing at times? but does it stop us from enjoying it?)

As it suddenly occurred to me in the course of discussions in this forum, Language is music! Language is not playing the role of communication in a musical performance. The narrative during the course of the 20th century, again it's ways of the dialogue, presented the tradition in emotional terms! They talked in terms of the content of the Sahitya, Sahitya bhava and the bhakti that comes through the meaning of compositions and so on. But on the ground, there was an automatic division of labor with Upanyasakas taking the role of explaining the import of the kritis. Musicians used the musical structure of the compositions to structure their renditions. And Kriti repertoire only expanded later in concerts.

Also we need to remember, most musicians if any had only none or basic schooling and post the trinity themselves not sure how many in the immediate generations of Sishya Parampara even had the rigorous Gurukul education, which was being destroyed. In early 20th century, the situation did not change much. Those who took to music , took to music.

Did it stop us from enjoying? Yes it did for many born in the 70s and 80s. Those who could ignore it had special musical taste for this form.

If today the teachers are telling students to focus on pronunciation correctly, that is also correct and not wrong!

We should not make literal arguments , instead focus on deeper philosophical concepts to develop an understanding.

2)arguing on that, the importance of instrumental music underlines to the fact that form is important. perhaps a knowledgeable person can infer the lyrics of some songs the instrumentalists perform, but its predominantly the music and its form are on the center stage there.

On Instrumental music, I tell you the illiterate generation was lot more open minded going by the old pictures you see, people thronging to instrumental concerts etc. I am also making a partial comparison, to make a point about attitudes only, where we expect better from the literate population. It may be that instrumentalists of those days worked hard to strike a chord and there were no competing art forms to distract listeners. Lots of other factors. The whole music and it's patronage became concentrated in few places any ways.

Again, you harp on lyrics here - listen! Language is music. May be the cine music of India created these lyrics - vs - music paradigm bringing in surreptitiously some alien western concept of music into our minds. Their Languages are not musical, and the burden of proof is on them to refute my statement . So an instrumentalist is well within their rights to borrow the musical structure of a kriti which includes the "music of the language" and "music of svaras, ragas, non-raga ragas " etc. And that is complete music, as complete or even more complete as a vocalist who may slur or not on the words.

3) I believe Tmk extended this idea further. so, for him, form is of superior importance. If a person is an atheist, can't he perform? off course, the emphasize on the form by the greats of 20th century and instrumentalists provided a way for that!

We get fooled by such dialogues! Atheist, the term brandished in a public discourse indicates what? It also implicitly brandishes the word "god" in the same public discourse!! And who does that? So, the term atheist denies something else? I refuse to take cognizance of it and such a question is nonsensical in a public dialogue of today! Why do I need to be involved in that fight? avarkal caNdai enakkedaRku?

4) About the issues he raised, which is not relevant? "Sabha system, its nexus to NRI money, and the danger it posed to the art itself. In various writings, speeches and public interactions, he criticised the Carnatic (or Karnatik, as he likes to spell it) music establishment for being Brahminical, elitist, exclusionary and snobbish." one can be dishonest and deny these, but truth is these exist. (https://www.newslaundry.com/2024/03/23/ ... tm-krishna )

How does it matter if it is true or false! The people who do anything have their right of "association" to do so however they see fit. There is no need to deny or confirm what is being alleged. Those who raise these questions or in this day and age, even to possess the intellect to raise such questions should do better themselves to start to associate and do their practices however they see fit. There is no response needed for such allegations.

5) continuing on #4, When many musicians openly praise the existing political regime and its deeds and accepted as norm it's obvious Krishna would receive criticism on his very position on them!

On politics, those who sit on constitutional high horse, should know political speech is one's choice. Go and argue in the political arena.

But this is nothing new! 20th century greats like SSI, mmi, alathur brothers, MS and even ariyakudi had sung the "secular" songs.

I say there is nothing called "Secular" here. Anything done according to tradition has some sacredness associated with it. My tradition tells me that the letters are sacred in certain traditional contexts. Musical treatises have maintained that "svaras", "ragas" are sacred beings. There is no secular song as much as I can see it.

But then if there is a "non-secular" song (in your understanding) that provides you with some musical, aural or other "secular " pleasure (again in your understanding) , am I or anybody stopping you from getting that pleasure?

[arasi]

Partially following the furor on the media, this old lady is overwhelmed.

Our sparks-flying SK award threads of yore were missed the past several years, but look now! Could we call this the longest and most complex of them all? From discussions of the merit, the age of vocalists and the instrumentalists who get ignored, we have a year which has unfolded into a drama of politics, religion and incidentally the music of Tamizh Nadu.

Well, what do you expect? The chosen one is a rabble-rouser by rule and naturally, sky is the limit to today's media and folks too, while spotlighting this event. Well, the media would move on to the next hot topic, fellow artistes will go back to polishing up their stuff for display during the season, TMK after years would move from the canteen into the halls of the Academy to perform and preside over...

Thanks fellow-rasikAs for all your input, I was educated.

Sachi and Bhagwan,
Yes, thinking of TMK's concerts the past two years at the Gayana Samaja, the first one stirred hopes in me. This year's was so very satisfying. No gimmicks, laid-back 'you fill up the blanks, guys/gals' attitude or most importantly, indifferent attitude about the balance of a concert.
So, here are my best wishes to TMK for renewed strength, to re-emerge as an ace CM singer!

Then again, Krishna LIlA is not for anyone to predict

[sam]

@shankarank

but a tradition like this also needs to be inward looking in selecting core people for recognition, from time to time. MA invented Sangita Kala Acharyas for this purpose.

But I don't see the Acharya awardees, on the main seat, moderating discussions. The role must be reversed, with SK(s) seated on the rows and Acharyas seated on discussions. I see SK(s) struggle to provide insights, as thinking about music is different from performing.

.
Excellent point, Sir.

I would add that the sadas should be presided over, not by SK but by SKA. Presumably, SKA know more abiut musicology than the SK

[sam]

Or maybe his accompanyists maybe carrying special vadhyams having only synthetic materials exclusively for his concerts!

Why not? It is a simple thing for modern science.
.

..

[ram1999]

Partially following the furor on the media, this old lady is overwhelmed.

Our sparks-flying SK award threads of yore were missed the past several years, but look now! Could we call this the longest and most complex of them all? From discussions of the merit, the age of vocalists and the instrumentalists who get ignored, we have a year which has unfolded into a drama of politics, religion and incidentally the music of Tamizh Nadu.

Well, what do you expect? The chosen one is a rabble-rouser by rule and naturally, sky is the limit to today's media and folks too, while spotlighting this event. Well, the media would move on to the next hot topic, fellow artistes will go back to polishing up their stuff for display during the season, TMK after years would move from the canteen into the halls of the Academy to perform and preside over...

Thanks fellow-rasikAs for all your input, I was educated.

Sachi and Bhagwan,
Yes, thinking of TMK's concerts the past two years at the Gayana Samaja, the first one stirred hopes in me. This year's was so very satisfying. No gimmicks, laid-back 'you fill up the blanks, guys/gals' attitude or most importantly, indifferent attitude about the balance of a concert.
So, here are my best wishes to TMK for renewed strength, to re-emerge as an ace CM singer!

Then again, Krishna LIlA is not for anyone to predict

after all, It has become a norm for the liberals to be diplomatic and ignore the damage these elements create to the society which is more than the good done to the music (if at all any) !!

[sam]

-.
http://www.carnaticworld.com/index.php/ ... aniam.html

In an era where events happen at the speed of twitter and the ephemerality of snapchat, the influence of social media in our lives is undeniable. However, there is a place on the Internet where the world slows down to the pace of reading an old-fashioned morning newspaper with a cup of South Indian filter coffee. This is rasikas.org, a site dedicated to online discussions about every aspect of Carnatic music. With the Indian diaspora spread across multiple continents, rasikas.org provides music lovers with a much-needed canopy under which to learn, discuss, review and critique music.

Although there have been many discussion forums from the days of the old usenetgroups to the now extinct websites like Sangeetham.com, rasikas.org has an ardent following and dedicated membership like no other place, real or virtual. For example, Dr. Ravishankar, a New Jersey physician and an expert on dance and musical lyrics, seldom begins his day without a visit to rasikas.org. A moderator of the forum fromChicago, who posts under the moniker "Vasanthakokilam", feels a sense of withdrawal when the site is even down for maintenance.

The brain behind the website is its founder,Mr. S. Ramakrishnan, an IT professional based out of the United Kingdom. He started rasikas.org in 2005, when there were no other structured sources for free expression and scholarly discussions on Carnatic music. Although the site began with only five members, there are currently over 7000 registered members from around the globe. Till today, he diligently maintains the website, updates the engines that make it spin and protects it from spammers and hackers.

While some of the rasika members have made their identities known to the public, manyhave chosen to remain anonymous. Some use the cloak of their anonymity to express their dissenting opinions without social consequence;although some use it exclusively to stir controversies. That said most of the discussions that take place in the forum are civil, scholarly, erudite and hugely informative.

Eminent vidwans and vidushis like ChitravinaRavikiran, NeyveliSanthanagopalan, Dr. M. Narmadha, Suryaprakash, GayathriVenkakataraghavan, Shashikiran, VijayalakshmiSubramaniam, AkellaMallikarjunaSarma, Erode Nagaraj and MannarkoilBalaji have all contributed significantly to the proceedings. Organizers, sabha secretaries and students of music all routinely check rasikas.org to get a sense of the latest goings on in the world of Carnatic music.

Many readers of the forum are not registered members; interestingly several of them are eminent musicians. The writer of this article, who routinely posts a number of reviews of major concerts, receives candid, appreciative comments from many leading performers(and the occasional brickbat too). Reviews of concerts trickle in from all around the globe; from people like Mr. Rajesh and Suresh in Chennai to several others in Bangalore, Mumbai, Australia, NZ, with a large majority of the overseas ones coming from the US and Canada.

However, as with any large family-like gathering, there are frequent intellectual disagreements amongst members on issues of interpretation, opinion and taste. Ms. Rajee Krishnan, herself a composer, often adds colour to the forum's discussions by offering an original perspective which helps people achieve middle ground during a heatedand passionate debate.

Another key contributor to the forum Mr. LakshmanRagde, based in Toronto, Canada shares lyrics from his repository of several thousand kritis. An erstwhile member Mr. Kulkarni has generously shared several hundred non-commercial recordings on the forum for academic and illustrative purposes. Veteran members like Dr. V.K. Viswanathan, a theoretical physicist at the Los Alamos labs in the USand Mr. M.K. Ramasubramaniam of New York often share scintillating stories from their five decades of experience of dealing with music. Mr. Nick Haynes, a prolific contributor, is now an instantly recognizable celebrity of sorts in all the sabhas of Chennai just from his posts on rasikas!

Mr. Uday Shankar, an intellectual powerhouse of the forum and inventor of a slide flute called the chitravenu, confesses that he has learned much about issues related to design and structure of instruments from the learned members of the forum, including professional musicians.

The forum hosts some deeply scholarly discussions on diverse topics that range from how the brain processes musical information, the musical genius ofL algudi, the different schools of mridangam playing, to less salubrious topics like the state of washrooms in leading sabhas. Conversations about the acoustics of leading sabhas tend to mirror the spirit of the discussions on the state of their restrooms.

Recently, a select few of the global membership of this now influential web forum gathered in Chennai for their annual pow-wow, graciously hosted by Sri Ravikiran. Much of the effort for bringing people together from literally every corner of the globe goes to Mr. Nageswaran, best described as a rasika-statesman. The annual meeting brings a great sense of camaraderie to this community and energizes the membership for another year.

The forum is presently in the midst of a deluge of the margazhiseason's reviews.Next week, things will return to normalcy where members will go back to intense discussions on who next year's SangithaKalanidhi will be, but Mr. Ramakrishnan, founder admin, will ensure that the proceedings always remain parliamentary.




.

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[raviscn]

They talked in terms of the content of the Sahitya, Sahitya bhava and the bhakti that comes through the meaning of compositions and so on. But on the ground, there was an automatic division of labor with Upanyasakas taking the role of explaining the import of the kritis. Musicians used the musical structure of the compositions to structure their renditions. And Kriti repertoire only expanded later in concerts.

1a) I assume so after the rendering the "nidhi chala sughama" and other pieces in the concert, the artists who invariably upholding the dharma, tradition etc would happily leave the arena after attaining the salvation without accepting or demanding the rightful remuneration. In that context the term "rightful" would be sacrilege as its some western thought and violation of the essence of dharma the artist upholding in every breath of his/her life. the thought of remuneration might be instantly shaming them as its questioning the whole purpose and objective of the music that they cherish and uphold.

1b) I understand, humans would be changing constantly according to the emerging social context. just wanted to the highlight things may not be as thought or perceived.

2)it's against own principles of dharmma(and idea of "Nidhi chala sughama") to work with the power position for opportunities (and denying the opportunities to others who are in disadvantaged position or have not reached the corridors of power and money yet) through the cartel system, which seems to be conveniently sidelined in your reply. It's of profound vulgarity that the so-called upholders of philosophical positions of great minds the land ever produced, are practitioners of the predatory tactics against the women and children. (Sadly, I have also observed such behaviors from the so-called greats who claim to the torch bearers of the tradition and dharmma..)

it's just convenient to build certain narratives to cater own interests. but taking high moral positions of dharmma after 1(a) and/or (2) can't take seriously.

The main argument is that the music can be enjoyed or practiced in different ways. There is no universal logic that it should be in this way or that way. It may appear so to some (and must be very obvious also), but there can be other possible perspectives also. The whole noise that is heard now is the denial of such possibilities or perspectives.

[sam]

Leaving alone the political and anti-bramin views of TMK, it seems that he says, that carnatic music and hindustani music too, do not need lyrics atall. Perhaps, he is righht. If so, instrumental music is THE music.
It would have been great if he had confined himself to RTP alone.
Let him do just a set of RTPs in his MA concert to prove his point.

[rajeshnat]

http://www.carnaticworld.com/index.php/ ... aniam.html

With the risk of fellow active and passive posters of rasikas.org calling it as repetition ,if ever TMK has a short half an hour debate in audio-video with any of say 100 posters of rasikas.org and if that is televised or put in web , it will be 10x more effective than the latest post of Ra Ga Sisters and TMK will have almost zero locus standi . .

However TMK picks up some elderly personality(who cannot communicate that well like Vinayakaram where i saw some link few days back where TMK is speakin , many many years ago once i heard him speak with Chengalpet Ranganathan in early days where his shuffling with orphaning started and he was justifying where unfortunately then CR could not match in communication) or he picks up some unwashed mass who hardly hears CM and know the history and sits in the podium or writes in The Hindu (today there is a long editorial write up- nice one but not applicable for TMK ).

kudos to mahavishnu in writing so well this writeup in 2013, right measured sentences covering the entire rasikas , pointing few names which adds right impetus.

p.s For those who joined bit later ,Ramesh Balasubramaniam id is mahavishnu and he is in california. Ramesh was a brilliant reviewer ,Now where is @mahavishnu is my question , i am sure submit button is working for him.

[raviscn]

reread shankarank's reply. though I have some disagreements here and there, the argument of the music as language is something I indeed agree with. Among the trinity the lyrics and meaning of Thyagaraja's compositions (of many I have read) have universal appeal in my opinion. If the emotion of the lyrics is captured in the singing, it would be very satisfying experience indeed. on the danger of repeating oneself, one need not subscribe to Thyagaraja's point of view to appreciate his lyrics, or the beautiful art he reveals through the work. It's not defamatory. the musical form of other great composers also can be appreciated (and practiced). the argument that it has to be "only" done as per the "traditional" standpoint is something could be contested.

[shankarank]

1a) I assume so after the rendering the "nidhi chala sughama" and other pieces in the concert, the artists who invariably upholding the dharma, tradition etc would happily leave the arena after attaining the salvation without accepting or demanding the rightful remuneration. In that context the term "rightful" would be sacrilege as its some western thought and violation of the essence of dharma the artist upholding in every breath of his/her life. the thought of remuneration might be instantly shaming them as its questioning the whole purpose and objective of the music that they cherish and uphold.

Is remuneration a "right"? It is a contract or agreement at best. And is that a western concept? That somebody who serves a community is remunerated commensurate with the community that they serve? They also live , eat and feed their children and send them to school. The confusion here is that the old village from where people come with their experiences was an endowed society. Lot of things provided for. And money wasn't flowing or getting printed like cracy.

Yeah, I do see chat comments on live streams even today that, after singing nidhi cAla sukhamA , that artist gets "covers" at the end. Isn't that kind of stupid? With what face somebody says that today? They read some meaning of the song in some book? Oh! it has couple of familiar Samskrt words heard in all languages - I see! Or heard some stories , but never thought about it? If people are half baked , there is no point trying to argue with them.

As regards, bringing "western" ideas, I am not against it. I live in the "west". But we should first be clear what is our idea! If some random non-musical "lyric" is forced with melody today, I would like to critique it.

2)it's against own principles of dharmma(and idea of "Nidhi chala sughama") to work with the power position for opportunities (and denying the opportunities to others who are in disadvantaged position or have not reached the corridors of power and money yet) through the cartel system, which seems to be conveniently sidelined in your reply. It's of profound vulgarity that the so-called upholders of philosophical positions of great minds the land ever produced, are practitioners of the predatory tactics against the women and children. (Sadly, I have also observed such behaviors from the so-called greats who claim to the torch bearers of the tradition and dharmma..)

I am not denying that in organizations today, nepotism, biases do exist. That should be discussed , questioned, exposed and highlighted. And I have also not ignored the other allegations of mis-conduct. But some organizers take the stand that that has not been inquired into and concluded, and give opportunities. I just leave it as their prerogative. And I avoid writing reviews on those artists, even if I write a concert review where they may be present. Outside of that, I may quote some ideas from their presentations from past, to highlight some musical strong points from their career if required to make a point about the music itself in general.

The main argument is that the music can be enjoyed or practiced in different ways. There is no universal logic that it should be in this way or that way. It may appear so to some (and must be very obvious also), but there can be other possible perspectives also. The whole noise that is heard now is the denial of such possibilities or perspectives.

The minimum requirement I have is that, you give the traditional music the same respect you give your national flag or at least practice the general decorum you practice in other formal activities of let's say governance or business. If you are an unfamiliar listener, just occupy a seat and allow your body parts get impinged with music. Don't worry about who is out there identifying a rAga or keeping tALa.

I am not a subscriber to the idea of "classical" label for any Indian traditional music. It is a western label, for things that are dead and gone like Greek and Latin. And it is there in mortuaries called Universities and studied like how people study dead bone skulls. It may have other meanings, but I would like to take the worst possible one , especially if it is an imported term. I don't want this music labeled with something, that will lead to worser interpretations.

Bottom line, anybody can and should be able to listen to this traditional music.

[raviscn]

if the CM's objective is different from what TMK says or his experimentations are anathema to its core principles and it's only for bakthi and salvation, then remuneration and other material benefits which these musicians seem to go after and fight for might be redundant is what I was trying to point out (Off course I do not subscribe to the view that remuneration or material benefits should be foregone! just pointing a potential problem on the preaching and practicing.)

[shankarank]

Look people can have internal expressions, narratives said in a context. This should be done in a private setting with people of the same mindset, where people seek that point of view. In a Lec Dem , it is OK, since the person saying these things got their stage, and those listening have to respect the speaker if they decide to sit in that arena.

Problem is this type of stuff gets printed in Newspapers. Why don't the editors edit them out?

In social media, it is free for all, people can say anything. But why allow such things to be printed, that "the CM is for salvation", especially when you want to promote "secularism".

That is why we see counter reactions.

Also did anybody force you to accept such a view?

[raviscn]

>Also did anybody force you to accept such a view?<
why then uproar after the announcement, often leading to the abuse of TMK or directed to the people even remotely like his attempts?

it's because these attempts are not confirming to their view. i do not want to reiterate the points anymore.

[shankarank]

I answered your points, but then you were also selective , raising some of them and ignoring lot of other things like "kundikka connavar somebody" kind of stuff, that vitiated the atmosphere in an august organization that all others have involved themselves all along based on the original trust and it's articles that were followed. The organization has it's flaws from past.

But those who want to point out should also have limits. Even to provoke a conversation you cannot cross limits like " move the conversation to the point where Ram is same as panai maram" etc.

Then those who did the uproar also have good reasons to do so!

[raviscn]

in my view, you just tried to turn the table that's all.
my position on this can be summarized as below (obviously rehashing them again).

1) there is a possibility to practice and enjoy CM without adhering to the concept of tradition, bhakthi etc. The form and structure of that school of music amazingly rich and provides infinite potential to explore in different ways also.
2) this is not acceptable for few as it's against the tradition and their concept of music. (Even though there is a gap between their practice and their preaching on the objective of the music. Some of them are outright ugly. not elaborating them again.)
3) I do not know the timelines on the break (if there is, really.) between the traditionalists and TMK. however, you and others in forum say that TMK irked the traditionalists because of his take on music, openly taken political positions and challenge he posed on their belief systems. If that's so, I do not see an issue on the uproar perse. its violation on both sides as the traditionalists may have violated his aesthetics sense, approach to music, his political understanding and belief systems; for many years he may have chosen to be silent, and he may have decided "enough is enough."

[sam]

Lyrics free carnatc classical music, is possible only through instrumental music..say..flute, violin, veena, harmonium,, Nagaswaram. Perhaps through keyboard. Ĝuitax and mandolin.

Rules out vocal music.

It is the lyrics that bring in things like bhakthi, romance etc.
.
Let us turn a new chapter.

Learning,, practising , teaching and propagating carnatic music throjgh instrumental music alone ( as is being done by orchestration in western classical music), solves two major problems.
First , basic grammar of carnatic music ragas and talas can be compulsorily taught to ALL studenfs in high achool from sixth to tenth standard. Then, the students will kbow aboit atleast 60 ragas and seven talas. They will learn to play atleast one musical instrument.

As no lyrics are involved, , there will be no problems due to religion and caste.
.
We are teaching music and not religiin and spirituality.
.
Secondly, it becomes easier to take carnatic music to other countries, especially, western countries.
.
Students, indian and foeign ,can ealily learn the basics of carnatjc music without its religious and ''spiritual'
'Add-ons..
.
There is one more advantage . We can then have orchesral music as in western classical music., which we already have in film musuc and even a kutchery can have an orchestra ensemble..

Let us liberate carnatic classical music from hindu religious, courtesan music,
and esoteric connotations and associations.
..
It may be that the essence of music as propagated through many centuries in this land concentrated on raaga and taalam.
No musical treatise spoke of religion.
They considered classical music as a science.
.


May be, it was only from the time of Purandara dasa or perhaps earlier by jayadeva and annamayya that music was mixed up with religion.
But even then tbey were composers and not musicologists.
.
.
TMK is wrong both in his theory and pratice. because he is trying to decouple lyrics and music while practising VOCAL music.
.

The correct approach was demostrated by instrumentalists..say veena dhanammal, TNR pIllai, Lalgudi jayaraman , TChowdia, Sambasiva iyer, Narayana Iengar, the genius Mali,
and hundreds of instrumental carnatic music players past and present.

This is not to say that we are jettsoning the Trinity and their lineage. Nobody prevents an intrhmentalist from playing the great mzsical composirions of the Rzinity and the lineage.
.
In fact, perhaps even Thyagaraja was extolling the science of classical music.
.
It is not correct to say that we get immersed in the underlying kruthi when an instrumenatalist plays a thyagaraja kruthi.
NO.
The rendition stands independently of the lyrics , message of kruthi etc. Alap and swara prastharam have nkthing to do with the kruthi.
. MMI..?
.
Just for an example, the often mentioned Todi aalap of TNR,..did it owe anvfhing to kruthis?
Some peoole say that he took the swaroopam of the ragas from various kruthis and made it his own.
That shows a raga has a life of its own.
Indian music is after all based on the solid foundati.on of raag and faal.
.
Even western classical music uses the same notes but their approach is different.
.
Ilayaraja is using concepts of western classucal music and orchestdation along with some Cm/HM ragas.
It is not indian music but an attemoted fusion. May be jarring
...
This note/posf is an attempt to articulate a unified theory of classical music of India and the basis for a critque of TMK 's theory of music itself.
.
This is 100 % bharathiya classical tradition.
Bharathiya classical music tradition as expounded by ancient treatises is a science.

WORDS ARE NOT MUSIC.

Non commercial, pure art form ,is not atall extinct, being practised everyday in this vast land by experfs .
Ofcourse, it cannot be used for either rightwing or leftwing social message,
It is the ' ' thing in itself'
.

No CM vocalist is a pure musician ...even the great stalwarts of past, except when doing alap, swarams, niravals and RTP.

Most Hindusthani classical musicians are pure musicians..even vocalists.
Especially the great galaxy of muslim musicians.
. May be that orthodox islam frowns upon music but indo'-pak'bangla islam has enriched pure music enormously.
.
TMK like MS would have been examplary HM vocalists. They made the wrong choice.

The term 'composer' always refers to the person who creates tje music. The Trinity are composers because, tjey gave music along with lyrics.
But how many of the jayadeva, annamayya and dasa sahithyams are
Not re'tuned versions only?
The credit for the music of those songs should then go to the tune-setters .


There,!
This is what i believe that TMK is trying to do. But in a very very crude way.
Legendary instrumentalists of the golden recades had shown the right way but by ress strident and less posturing. Way.
.
For those who want less political, less social and less histotical criticism of TMK, here it is.
.
....

[narayan]

* A lack of a strong instrumental tradition, especially these days, has hurt us. There is much musical value in our system, which is submerged by other great influences, and is therefore undervalued.
* About TMK, I see very little analysis of his direct musical contributions, of which there are at least some that are worth debating, I would think. People seem very happy to discuss the spin offs from his musical activities.
* Finally, whatever may be one's opinions, the relatively silence of musicians (not rasikas like us) in even token congratulations to a fellow musician is something striking.

[shankarank]

1) there is a possibility to practice and enjoy CM without adhering to the concept of tradition, bhakthi etc. The form and structure of that school of music amazingly rich and provides infinite potential to explore in different ways also.

CM itself is traditional music. What do you mean by "without adhering to tradition"? Like not singing with Sruti or use random jarring sounds? It's rich potential has been explored by many musicians , of course depending on rasika response. For many years Ragam tanam pallavi were not being sung even by stalwarts good at it, because audience wanted something different.

Did TM Krishna agree with every other approach?

https://thewire.in/82079/m-balamuralikr ... aoXNdFW92P

If I was to ask myself whether I have been influenced or internalised anything from his music, my answer would be ‘no’. I certainly do not agree with his musical approach.

Bhakti , TMK had a definition in one Jaya TV session. It is Bhakti towards music herself! Why not? I don't disagree! Why do you make brand names out of terms without inquiring deeper?

2) this is not acceptable for few as it's against the tradition and their concept of music. (Even though there is a gap between their practice and their preaching on the objective of the music. Some of them are outright ugly. not elaborating them again.)

Each person defining what is tradition have to explain it themselves. But you cannot assume your own definition and start raising questions.

3) I do not know the timelines on the break (if there is, really.) between the traditionalists and TMK. however, you and others in forum say that TMK irked the traditionalists because of his take on music, openly taken political positions and challenge he posed on their belief systems.
If that's so, I do not see an issue on the uproar perse. its violation on both sides as the traditionalists may have violated his aesthetics sense, approach to music, his political understanding and belief systems; for many years he may have chosen to be silent, and he may have decided "enough is enough."

So TMK has changed rAgA structures? To break with tradition? No right? He has only done some silly provocation actually outside of music , by being ridiculous. Who is he to challenge some body else's belief system anyways? Actually he did not do that. He simply crossed the limits of proper civil speech.

Aesthetic is a broad term and differs from each artist-followers set according to tastes. Did he mention specific things as to what was lacking in aesthetics before?

He is giving aesthetic concerts in every "art" gallery setting out there now. So what is being denied to you personally?

Music Academy had relationship with certain artistes who did not walk out like TMK did. If suddenly MA turns around and invites a person who has crossed limits of sensible speech, the artists who have responded to it negatively have good reasons do so. It is their choice.

What is your issue anyways with the uproar? You are getting your aesthetic music in lot of venues right?

[sam]

Will The Real TM Krishna Please Stand Up?
Intellectual Honesty Demands That TM Krishna Decline The Sangita Kalanidhi Award"
https://swarajyamag.com/newsletters/wil ... hi%20Award

[girish_a]

There is a reason why other forms of music, apart from Carnatic classical music, exist. In Karnataka, for example, there is a form of music called "Bhaava Geethe". It caters to the more secular, worldly aspects of life, like mother-children relationships, human love, the beauty of nature and so on - basically a wide range of human emotions. These songs are usually compositions of poets, humorists, social reformers etc. and are set to beautiful tunes, and in a lot of cases, Carnatic ragas.

And these compositions quite popular too, because of the simple reason that they appeal to mundane, everyday, utterly human emotions. I can't think of anyone who will not be moved by some of these compositions. There are a whole lot of very popular Bhava Geethe singers in Karnataka. Artists like MD Pallavi, Ratnamala Prakash (daughter of Sri RK Srikantan), C. Ashwath, Mysore Ananthaswamy etc. are household names in Karnataka.

And then, of course, there is film music too, which doesn't exactly fit into any "system", but often draws heavily on classical music.

TMK's pathetic experiments are trying to solve a problem that is already solved by other forms of music. What he is trying to do is to force-fit the more secular aspects of life into a form of music that is primarily bhakti-based. When he says he can enjoy the bhaava of a composition in an impersonal manner without bothering about the deity on which it is composed, that is his personal peculiarity. He must have had the sense to understand that he is speaking for himself, and others can't relate to it.

For most people, it is not possible to enjoy Balagopala without imagining Bala Krishna. And for most people, it is not possible to derive the same bhava out of a composition if it was about a pine tree or a dog. Because songs invoke not only emotion but also visual aspects of the subject of the composition. Songs invoke imagination, and imagination comes from associations. Bhaava is a result of all of this.

Can you sing Bhagyada Lakshmi Baramma without feeling the bhaava of bounty and prosperity? Can you sing it without imagining the grace and divine beauty of Goddess Lakshmi?

Honestly, how many people can enjoy a composition on a pine tree or a dog even if it was set to a beautiful, grand, profound tune in Bhairavi, Thodi, Varali, Kalyani, Kharaharapriya, Madhyamavati or Kamboji?

And most Hindus have no association with Jesus or Allah. Instead, for many of us, these themes evoke recollections of Christian conversion efforts, the Goa inquisition and the Islamic depredations. We can't find any love in our hearts for these, sorry.

So singing Jesus, Allah or E.V. Ramaswamy songs may win him fans in elite circles of wine swilling secularists, media houses etc. but the vast majority of Hindus will reject him.

What he may end up doing successfully, though, is to draw loutish characters from political parties and organizations into the Carnatic realm and cause irreparable damage instead of bringing about genuine change and inclusivity among performing artists and listeners.

That's why I said his experiments are pathetic.

[ram1999]

Will The Real TM Krishna Please Stand Up?
Intellectual Honesty Demands That TM Krishna Decline The Sangita Kalanidhi Award"
https://swarajyamag.com/newsletters/wil ... hi%20Award

why would he decline ?

This is totally politically engineered announcement of the award. just before the elections, the Ram/Murali clan which is leaft leaning and anti BJP extablishment, TMK as mercenary working for the political parties / activist groups etc... This controversy has been covered by all national media channels, u open YT and it is only these stuff that keeps popping up... the DMK is finding all ways to contain the BJP gaining grounds in TN. It is a bigger game that is being played using CM as the medium. well, some turn a blind eye and keep praising the musicality of the person...

[ram1999]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hzZSrFkXA4&t=1578s

[shankarank]

And for most people, it is not possible to derive the same bhava out of a composition if it was about a pine tree or a dog.

You need to understand the undercurrent in TN to understand this. This is not some atheism that prevails in the west. This is just hatred towards Brahmins primarily that then extends to other things that are connected to Brahmins! They will say, No! This is just hatred towards Brahminism , separating the humans from it.

All because there was good level of domination of this community as lawyers and in government in early 20th century , especially when power was devolved into Indians. You can listen to V. Sriram's talk in Vani Mahal on tamil isai. But there were reservations and representations of other communities as well.

And all gazette records indicate many communities were represented in school education. In fact so much was made out of some segregation of food serving in Cheranmahadevi by a school run by VVS Iyer, but Pachaippa's college which is in the progressive Chennai, started by the community behind Justice party , did not even admit some of the scheduled castes. That nobody talks about!

So the successful lawyers, whose forebears or themselves migrated from Villages , indeed are the pioneers of anglicisation of Indian society and that is why we even have a musical performance tradition in Chennai to boot! They may have done that under hardship for all we know.

Poverty fuels bigger families and more progenies and impending division of meagre property wealth, forces humans to make choices right?!

And people here are questioning , why singers don't live what they sing!

Some of the progressives even note that, that pulled the Brahmins from their "rut" of traditional enclaves into modernism.

And that is also why this TMK could get his critical thinking education later on at what Rishi Valley?!

But hatred also fanned by the British , works in complex ways.

Back to the hatred for Brahmins , the atheism propounded is a qualified Atheism, in that the Brahmin installed the deity with his chants and that is why it is false! And they will not talk about Gods of "religions" that came! They will deny "God" in general and sort of deny all "Gods" sometimes to provide an air of consistency, but there is a conceitful ire reserved for "the Brahmin" installed deity. This is not even any principled or honest argument like what Buddhists did in ancient times. Or honest atheists do using some rationalism. This is just hatred plain and simple!

This, in spite of the fact that the Sivachariars in many Saivaite temples, even if trained in Samskrt based agama procedures, are not the same as Smartas who migrated from North at some point.

TMK thinks that the general populace will be enamored by hearing a song on Pine tree, since it is not on any "Brahmin installed Deity" , but the General populace only votes these parties to power to get their "jAti" benefits , but mostly otherwise visit temples and be devoted.

There is a small section that brandishes this ideology and may just watch with glee, TMK heckle this tradition and don't care about the Bilahari aesthetics in the song.

Otherwise there is the NGO echo chamber that amplifies his antics!

[shankarank]

Now Ranjini Gayathri's letter cannot take seriously because of above.

a)Their claim that he ridiculed Thyagaraja or MS are not true.
.......

b) MS' great grandson himself said this on ranjini-gayathris statement wrt MS.
https://twitter.com/R_Induja/status/177 ... 68/photo/1

Now the artists framed it the way they saw it and it is an effective public posture or tactic to counter the damage being caused over all. MS' great grand son is wrong in some ways. Anybody can claim to be custodian of MS' honor, since Smt. MSS work belongs to all of public, especially if critical thinkers also arrogate to themselves the power to write critiques. In fact the latter point is what is cited by those who do criticism.

However, who is he (TMK), that MS or Thyagaraja should take or derive respect from? That to me is besides the point.

TMK took his critical thinking to devious levels, trying to psycho analyze her music, and connected the supposedly palpable sadness to her personal life and the people behind her.

That is not merely criticizing her music is it?

In fact I am not even worried about him treading into somebody's private space , but TMK himself, in other scenarios, is a proponent of right to privacy.

What I want to focus on is something larger, a type of psycho analytic lens worn by the colonizers in studying native populations across the globe. In that sense I say this borders on inhuman behavior. An affront to all colonized native populations who suffered and were unable to respond to such aggressions.

That is the critical thinking he learned in Rishi valley run by Nehru family stooges like Pupul Jayakar and her daughter. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pupul_Jayakar

Here MS or Thyagaraja are not in the picture at all , given the scale of things.

And I am right in trying to peep into TMK's mind, since he himself treaded into such ways with his psycho analysis.

[kvchellappa]

The sisters rock. The way they articulate, they could be the real authors of their letters.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bOprfexcb8

[SabashBale]

I have been following TMK’s ‘antic’s (and I take the liberty to use that term because of the visible and conspicuous absence of sustained efforts towards any of the causes he espouses) on and off for the last couple of decades or so and am somewhat closely following the recent developments around his being conferred the Sangita Kalanidhi title. I only have three points to make, before which, I would like to hastily add that most people who are discussing this issue in various media are either wilfully or unknowingly not taking note of one point regarding RaGa’s objection – their objection is not to him being conferred the honour, instead it is to have to perform on stage with the proceedings being chaired by him. I see a lot of discussions citing their objection to the award itself, which is factually incorrect. Now, to my three points:

Point 1: TMK’s correct claim that Carnatic Music (CM), its origins, its developments and its current form, practice and following is essentially Brahmin-dominated and Brahmin-centric. True, with rare-to-very-rare exceptions. But the way he makes this point is as if Brahmins are culprits in keeping it so and preventing people from other communities from getting recognition or rising to stardom or making as good a living out of this art form as they themselves. This may have been true in the past – probably even up to the turn of the millennium, and even then, only partially so – but it is definitely not the case today, discounting very rare exceptions. And this is also a point RaGa have highlighted in their now viral interview for Wow Tamizhaa. It is certainly not the responsibility of the practitioners of the art form to bring about this change (one may question if it is even necessary since there don’t seem to be too many people from other communities craving for it). At best – and this is what RaGa also say – they definitely don’t deny a discerning and deserving student their tutorship, other things being ok. So, why vilify almost the entirely of the CM fraternity for a fault they are not committing? Is he accusing the fraternity of being bystanders to this unfolding crime? If so, that is not fair either. Everybody has their 24 hours in a day and unless you feel a strong urge to go after this, most practitioners and teachers would go about the many things in their daily personal and professional lives – and they can in no way be accused of being bystanders of this so-called ‘injustice’. When you see a crime happening and you look the other way – yes – you are a bystander and can be pulled up! Not in this case when the so called ‘enemy’ in ‘invisible’ and TMK himself does not propose concrete actions nor spearheads a movement towards ‘correcting’ this. Even if he does this and some of the CM fraternity do not join, they cannot be blamed as being unjust, unfair, non-cooperative or non-secular. It is one thing to do one-off heroics like singing in a lungi (Yen, ammanamaa kooda dhaan paadalaam – Moderator – Please expunge this statement if it may be viewed as being offensive to some sensibilities) or a Muslim cap or a 5B PTC bus from huffing and puffing its way from T. Nagar to Mylapore.

While on the same point, Carnatic Music is like Beer, in the sense that it is an acquired taste and children in their younger years generally do not automatically take a liking for it. It takes a certain sophistication and an understanding the of art form to appreciate it to the maximum, while you also see some elderly gnana-shoonyams such as talam-putting-for-alapana mamis also enjoying it just as well. Let me draw two parallels here.

A) Fishermen folk in the Ennore area of Chennai probably belong to a few select communities and I can almost bet my life that there are no Brahmin fishermen in Ennore who venture out into the sea. If there was a FisherMan Krishna (FMK) among them, who says “We are denying Brahmins an opportunity to come and practice our art/trade/livelihood”, I wonder how the other fishermen would react? Surely, they are not denying Brahmins to take up this art/trade/livelihood. Would they be equally culpable?

B) Similarly, if there was a Christian Missionary Krishna (CMK) or just a Plain Muslim Krishna (PMK) and each respectively keep harping about that the respective communities do not allow people from other faiths or sub-faiths to practice Carol or Hymn singing or Sufi music, would the apparently true accusation stand any merit? Would it stir the hornet’s nest within their respective communities? Could they even come up with a practicable solution to this ‘problem’ even if they wanted to? Would they even see it as a problem in the first place?

Point 2: Can music exist without lyrics? – Yes and No. Yes - because you have instrumental music, alapana, (which also exists without an explicit rhythm, albeit a kalapramanam) and tanam. No - because the lyrical association enhances the music, the aesthetics and the imaginations of the listener in most cases. It is very abstract. If a reasonably good singer sings the whole of “Evvari Maata” (Khamboji) as “aaa aaa aa aaaa aaaa”, I wouldn’t be able to stand it! Or for that matter “Shiva Dharushana Namagaayithu Kaelae” sounds much better in Suddha Dhanyasi (as sung by most musicians) than when sung in Shankarabharanam (as sung by MLV). Or the Khamboji and Saramati versions of “Mari Mari Ninnae” (in these cases, the lyrics are the same but the music changes). Or the Hindi and Tamil versions of “Kahna Hi Kya” or “Kannalanae” sung by the same singer Chitra create very different effects (at least to me!).

Everything has a time and place and creates an effect that is more than the sum of its parts. If you keep over-analysing this, nothing will remain.

Point 3: Singing on Gods of other religions or other ‘leaders’ just to prove a point or just to throw a petty challenge to someone that if you can sing on Krishnar, I can sing on Karthar. Yes, you can. If you want to prove a point that you can sing on anyone – yes – you obviously can. It doesn’t need TMK, FMK, CMK or PMK to do that. If you are doing it as part of a larger and nobler cause that has taken root in your system, and conjoined by a sustained effort, that would be much appreciated as long as people appreciate the cause and identify with it. Otherwise, most people will only see it as an irritating tantrum that evokes an urge akin to wanting to swat a fly that sits on your arm.

I somehow feel, after having listened to a few of TMK’s speeches and discussions on several occasions that he has a tendency to over-analyse things. Urichindae irundha vengaayathula onnum irukkadhu. Nothing will remain and it will only f*ck your brain up (pardon the punchy profanity).

Finally, the second letter of RaGa to the academy sounded like: “Take that! – you S of a B!”. Checkmate!

(as soon as I finished writing this, I noticed that kvchellappa shared a Youtube video and I had to watch it. Pretty much in line ...)

[kvchellappa]

I loved it - the language, the orientation, the punch, and the balanced stance. As a musician put it, 'CM kathukkanumnu yar azharaa?' Much ado about nothing. Music we turn to for peace of mind, not to give a piece of our mind.

[shankarank]

Point 1: TMK’s correct claim that Carnatic Music (CM), its origins, its developments and its current form, practice and following is essentially Brahmin-dominated and Brahmin-centric.

How is this true? Except the real estate acquired and organized in Chennai , the origins and development part is not true at all! Outside of the sabhas, music happened all through the landscape with musicians of many communities. If those spaces were busted up over time due to migration, social change , that is only the "current form" today!

Origin and development - no! Naina Pillai, Chitoor , Somu and even other brahmin musicians were singing to all kinds of audiences across the landscape, weddings, temples.

Dhannamal family and Tirvizhimalai brothers were repositories for authentic renditions of "Brahmin" composers!

If for us , only Semmangudi and his "authentic" music and music academy are visible , that is our problem!

This issue is exactly after the Dravidian movement came to power and Indira Gandhi had leftist stooges in academics. The impact of these things will not be seen directly, but through under currents and the mood sway of the country!

Yet musicians made their trek to Soviet Russian cultural exchange in soft power diplomacy. The country got it's defense equipment and refurbished aircraft carrier , with even the ambassador and the Junior officer clueless as to what sort of people and culture the equipment protected. They only mugged false history to pass their civil services right?

The government could put them to use for it's own purpose!

That is the highest form of constitutional high horse values , that TMK is sitting and pontificating back to us now!

[sam]

Vocalists RanjaniGayathri need not have commented about members of MA committee.. One of them Mrs. Prabha Sridevan , is a retired judge of Madras High court and famous for many landmark judgements, favouring women. Wiki will give some details.
.
She is the great-grand daughter of Krishnaswamy Iyèr. As many of the younger generation may not know, he too was a judge in High court and gave an important judgement helping students from depressed classes.
.
Besides, he founded Madras Sanskrit college, Ranade library and auditorium, venkata ramana Ayurvedic dispesary which are all famous landmarks in Mylapore..
He was a firm moderate in pre Gandhian National freedom movement and was a respected and influential political leader in all india level
.
Though a moderate , he was the person who published Subramaya Bharathi's patriotic poems at his own cost and distributed the copies free of cost among freedom fighters.and general public
.
Prabha Sridevan is also a writer in Tamil and English and a translator. She has translated the great shoet stories and other writings of Ms,CHUDAMANI,who donated her entire earnings through writing for oublic cause. though she herself was neither born very rich nor wealthy in her noble life.

.we do not know much about the background of the MA committee members except the hugely talented sriram venkatakrishnan, a writer, historian and student of SSI. for a few years.
It is certain that committee members areIt no fans of TMK 's buffoonery.
It is for us to learn more about them .they are averse to publicity. Surely, they are not riffraff.
The disturning aspect of this justifiable
Criticism of TMK 's disgusting social activism, is that supporters of TMK are all of lumpen-left liberal, and anti TMK
Voices are from far-right. The far right is appropriating genuine musicians like Ranjani sisters and Trichur brothers.
.
As prof.Narayan wonders, how many of the popular and mainstream CM artistes have supported RaGa sisters and Trichur brothers? ..very few.
May be because, all of them admire his mano dharmam potentialties in classical music. though deeply traditional musicians in his concert circle, definitely are outside his placard holding agit-prop black shirts.
Most lovers of CM seem to be praying that this year's MA conference heralds a new sensible musician without his buffoonery.
But, even without his pseudo left pranks, is his music really great? Tjere could be two views.
As a layman, just compare the rendition of the bengali song ' dhano dhanya ' as a duet of MS with fhat of
TMK in a calctta concert..the contrast between genuine great ess and disgusting drags. The stage mannerisms add to the agony..
.
When singing the famous krutis already sung by MS and DKP , he is not popularizing them but trying to show off that his rendition is better.
They lady artistes were 60 years, no less, senior to this egotist and his complaint and unsavoury comments
about MS may yield a fraidian angle.
Assuming that he was just 15 year old when MS was already 75 and yet glowing,.
The verdict could be negative in all aspects...music , politics and person as well.
Opiniins differ.

.

.

.



.


..
Subramaya Bharathy continues to be the beacon light of all values worth following be it freedom, tamil language,
Uplift of depressed sections of society, venerator of all that are great in bharathiya culture, women's freedom.
His writings desrve to be the guide book foe the younger generation.
.
Ranjani' Gayathri are not the toolkit of the saffron party. They rather belong to Marathi trsdition. That is great.
.
Particularly illuminating was their singing a bharathy poem of folk music to debunk TMK. in the video interview.
.
Bharathy was a great admirer of Thyagaraja and of Subbarama Dikshitar. OF SSP.
TMK is just a lumpen liberal left. As ram1999 has guessed,, he is likely promoted and funded by american agencies.
.
Any way, let the criticism be confined to TMK 's music.

As arasi hinted, TMK may yet spring a huge surprise by playing the most orthodox CM musician in the forthcoming conference and concert,

Who knows?
.

..

[rajeshnat]

.we do not know much about the background of the MA committee members except the hugely talented sriram venkatakrishnan, a writer, historian and student of SSI. for a few years.

hmmm
come come i will start sangeetham.com with another musician ,

you put all the posts for 4 years about 10,000 plus .

I will then pull the plug after 4 years and also make sure that no one reads a bit of any post of sangeetham.com even going to the web archives and permanently deleting.

hmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[ganesh_mourthy]

It is certain that committee members areIt no fans of TMK 's buffoonery.

..

What is the role of committee members then? It is not a mere guest overstaying his welcome. It is about the Sabha adorning someone.

[sam]

Rajesh
Sad to know of that
Ganesh
No idea about th3 role of committee members

[kvchellappa]

A beautifully worded message from Mr. V Shrinivasan, who maintained a dignified silence all these years though privately he would express his displeasure.
MMA has mixed up dirty politics with divine music and lost its relevance. Musicians must boycott it and not hanker after the sullied award to get which will be a disgrace to their musical prowess built on tradition and long years of sustained hard work.

Quote

·
Kindly find below an important message in the "Deccan Herald" issue dated 30.3.2024. "Why we aren’t returning MS’s Sangita Kalanidhi title" ?
V Shrinivasan, M S Subbulakshmi’s grandson, explains his family’s position on the furore over T M Krishna being nominated for The Music Academy's highest honour

"In view of the controversy that has engulfed the world of Karnatik music, I wish to express my views on some important points, not least because I am the grandson of Bharat Ratna M S Subbulakshmi and the son of Radha Viswanathan.
The current building of The Music Academy, Chennai, was constructed primarily with funds generated by the many benefit concerts presented by my grandmother in the 1950s.
On October 9, 1955, Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru laid the foundation stone for it, and attended the first ever concert there by MS and my mother Radha (Sadasivam).
In his concluding remarks, Panditji made his famous speech: “Who am I, a mere prime minister, before the queen of music?” MS soon became the first woman to be awarded the title of Sangita Kalanidhi.
In protest against T M Krishna being nominated for the same title, Ranjani and Gayatri have withdrawn from this year’s music conference hosted by the academy in December. They have said one of the reasons for their non-participation is the “insult of icons” like Thyagaraja and MS by Krishna.
I fully endorse the decision of the sisters, and also of other musicians such as Dushyanth Sridhar, Vishaka Hari, Trichur Brothers and Arjun Kumar, who have also expressed their desire to refrain from performing at the academy this year.
Krishna had boycotted the academy and other sabhas in Chennai since 2015, saying the world of Karnatik music is “socially stifling and narrow with all of us unable to see that this art must be made accessible to the larger society and welcoming of it”. It is truly mind boggling what drove such a protocol-driven institution as The Music Academy to waive the rules for a person who had refused to perform for it for almost a decade!
I would also like to mention that some of the views expressed by Krishna on my late grandmother over the years have been downright disgraceful. To posthumously attack a musician who is in no position to defend herself reeks of arrogance. He wrote many provocative articles which not only hurt the feelings of millions of MS fans but also my late mother Radha Viswanathan, who shared the concert stage with MS for almost five decades.
Writing in Caravan magazine in 2015 , in an attempt to shock readers, Krishna begins by quoting an unnamed “young musician” who purportedly said, “MS Subbulakshmi is the greatest hoax of the twentieth century.”
In the same article, he wrote: "It is said that a leading musician from Madurai, a member of the Isai Vellalar community, once remarked that MS used to sing beautifully until she came under the tutelage of two Iyers.” (He is subtly belittling both Musiri and Semmangudi from whom my grandmother and mother learnt innumerable masterpieces.)
Why does Krishna fire from someone’s shoulders and make near blasphemous remarks especially when these views were far from the truth and possibly represented the views of the fringe and not the mainstream?
Krishna also writes in the same article that the release in1963 of Subbulakshmi’s Venkateshwara Suprabhatham was a “popular coup but it was musical free fall as far as the serious listener was concerned”. It is inexplicable how the Suprabhatham, which will be remembered for centuries, can be dismissed as a musical free fall.
Sometime in Nov 2017, addressing an audience in Hyderabad, Krishna said: “If MS’s voice came from a dark, non-upper-caste lady, would all of us celebrate her like we do today?”
How could he make such statements about a person regarded as one of the greatest icons in music?
I read out some of these articles to my mother Radha who was bound to a wheelchair and subsequently confined to bed. She would be utterly dismayed at the disrespect in the essays. But she would advise me not to respond and dignify his statements. The two of us were overwhelmed that thousands of people (both musicians and rasikas) rose to the defence of MS in the mainstream media and on social media, for which I remain eternally grateful.
Some well-wishers recommended legal recourse but on second thoughts we decided against it as the judicial process would not only consume time but also provide the oxygen of negative publicity for Krishna. My mother would say, “The Paramacharya of Kanchi has said Amma’s name will endure as long as the sun and the moon. However much Krishna tries to besmirch her pure name, he will not succeed.”
The Sangita Kalanidhi title was among the awards MS cherished the most. We are being asked whether the family intends to return the title. It was awarded almost six decades ago and no one in the family intends to go back in time, and we have no right to do so either.
However, we respect the decision of Chitravina N Ravikiran and the family of mridangam legend Palghat Mani Iyer to return their Sangita Kalanidhi titles."
Unquote
V Shrinivasan is the Managing Trustee of the Suswaralakshmi Foundation for Classical Music and Performing Arts set up to perpetuate the memory of Bharat Ratna M.S.Subbulakshmi

[sam]

The Paramacharya of Kanchi has said Amma’s name will endure as long as the sun and the moon. However much Krishna tries to besmirch her pure name, he will not succeed.

Thank you sirs.
Kvchellappa and vsrinivasan

[sam]

color=#FF4040]@sabashbale[/color]
Sir, kindly note that i had excluded vocal renditions.

It is very abstract. If a reasonably good singer sings the whole of “Evvari Maata” (Khamboji) as “aaa aaa aa aaaa aaaa”, I

Your post was in fine style. Thank you..

[sankark]

Some one said about Suguna Varadachari's disciple being a non-brahmin. I know who he was referring to. I know her family. Very devoted to tradition, being a non-brahmin. Every day Laitha sahasranamam chanting is compulsory.

loooool. "every day lalitha sahasranamam chanting is compulsory". and me thinks thats what TMK refers to brahminization of/by MS - wholesale buying into the *expected* ethos of a brahmin mami rather than just be MS herself. I also suspect many a brahmin will not know what bit them if sri mAthA sri mahAragni sri madhsimAhasanEswari came bit them in the you-know-where. I can only hope this chanting referred above is a family tradition and voluntary rather than imitate/brahminize oneself; nothing wrong if that is done voluntarily and one finds it an aesthetic to aspire to.

Totally tangential: IIRC, TMKs opinion was (is?) MS was no damsel in distress that needed a knight in shining white armor; she knew what she wanted and she knew the ways and means to go after that.

[sankark]

I have been following TMK’s ‘antic’s (and I take the liberty to use that term because of the visible and conspicuous absence of sustained efforts towards any of the causes he espouses) on and off for the last couple of decades or so and am somewhat closely following the recent developments around his being conferred the Sangita Kalanidhi title. I only have three points to make, before which, I would like to hastily add that most people who are discussing this issue in various media are either wilfully or unknowingly not taking note of one point regarding RaGa’s objection – their objection is not to him being conferred the honour, instead it is to have to perform on stage with the proceedings being chaired by him. I see a lot of discussions citing their objection to the award itself, which is factually incorrect. Now, to my three points:

Point 1: TMK’s correct claim that Carnatic Music (CM), its origins, its developments and its current form, practice and following is essentially Brahmin-dominated and Brahmin-centric. True, with rare-to-very-rare exceptions. But the way he makes this point is as if Brahmins are culprits in keeping it so and preventing people from other communities from getting recognition or rising to stardom or making as good a living out of this art form as they themselves. This may have been true in the past – probably even up to the turn of the millennium, and even then, only partially so – but it is definitely not the case today, discounting very rare exceptions. And this is also a point RaGa have highlighted in their now viral interview for Wow Tamizhaa. It is certainly not the responsibility of the practitioners of the art form to bring about this change (one may question if it is even necessary since there don’t seem to be too many people from other communities craving for it). At best – and this is what RaGa also say – they definitely don’t deny a discerning and deserving student their tutorship, other things being ok. So, why vilify almost the entirely of the CM fraternity for a fault they are not committing? Is he accusing the fraternity of being bystanders to this unfolding crime? If so, that is not fair either. Everybody has their 24 hours in a day and unless you feel a strong urge to go after this, most practitioners and teachers would go about the many things in their daily personal and professional lives – and they can in no way be accused of being bystanders of this so-called ‘injustice’. When you see a crime happening and you look the other way – yes – you are a bystander and can be pulled up! Not in this case when the so called ‘enemy’ in ‘invisible’ and TMK himself does not propose concrete actions nor spearheads a movement towards ‘correcting’ this. Even if he does this and some of the CM fraternity do not join, they cannot be blamed as being unjust, unfair, non-cooperative or non-secular. It is one thing to do one-off heroics like singing in a lungi (Yen, ammanamaa kooda dhaan paadalaam – Moderator – Please expunge this statement if it may be viewed as being offensive to some sensibilities) or a Muslim cap or a 5B PTC bus from huffing and puffing its way from T. Nagar to Mylapore.

While on the same point, Carnatic Music is like Beer, in the sense that it is an acquired taste and children in their younger years generally do not automatically take a liking for it. It takes a certain sophistication and an understanding the of art form to appreciate it to the maximum, while you also see some elderly gnana-shoonyams such as talam-putting-for-alapana mamis also enjoying it just as well. Let me draw two parallels here.

A) Fishermen folk in the Ennore area of Chennai probably belong to a few select communities and I can almost bet my life that there are no Brahmin fishermen in Ennore who venture out into the sea. If there was a FisherMan Krishna (FMK) among them, who says “We are denying Brahmins an opportunity to come and practice our art/trade/livelihood”, I wonder how the other fishermen would react? Surely, they are not denying Brahmins to take up this art/trade/livelihood. Would they be equally culpable?

B) Similarly, if there was a Christian Missionary Krishna (CMK) or just a Plain Muslim Krishna (PMK) and each respectively keep harping about that the respective communities do not allow people from other faiths or sub-faiths to practice Carol or Hymn singing or Sufi music, would the apparently true accusation stand any merit? Would it stir the hornet’s nest within their respective communities? Could they even come up with a practicable solution to this ‘problem’ even if they wanted to? Would they even see it as a problem in the first place?

Point 2: Can music exist without lyrics? – Yes and No. Yes - because you have instrumental music, alapana, (which also exists without an explicit rhythm, albeit a kalapramanam) and tanam. No - because the lyrical association enhances the music, the aesthetics and the imaginations of the listener in most cases. It is very abstract. If a reasonably good singer sings the whole of “Evvari Maata” (Khamboji) as “aaa aaa aa aaaa aaaa”, I wouldn’t be able to stand it! Or for that matter “Shiva Dharushana Namagaayithu Kaelae” sounds much better in Suddha Dhanyasi (as sung by most musicians) than when sung in Shankarabharanam (as sung by MLV). Or the Khamboji and Saramati versions of “Mari Mari Ninnae” (in these cases, the lyrics are the same but the music changes). Or the Hindi and Tamil versions of “Kahna Hi Kya” or “Kannalanae” sung by the same singer Chitra create very different effects (at least to me!).

Everything has a time and place and creates an effect that is more than the sum of its parts. If you keep over-analysing this, nothing will remain.

Point 3: Singing on Gods of other religions or other ‘leaders’ just to prove a point or just to throw a petty challenge to someone that if you can sing on Krishnar, I can sing on Karthar. Yes, you can. If you want to prove a point that you can sing on anyone – yes – you obviously can. It doesn’t need TMK, FMK, CMK or PMK to do that. If you are doing it as part of a larger and nobler cause that has taken root in your system, and conjoined by a sustained effort, that would be much appreciated as long as people appreciate the cause and identify with it. Otherwise, most people will only see it as an irritating tantrum that evokes an urge akin to wanting to swat a fly that sits on your arm.

I somehow feel, after having listened to a few of TMK’s speeches and discussions on several occasions that he has a tendency to over-analyse things. Urichindae irundha vengaayathula onnum irukkadhu. Nothing will remain and it will only f*ck your brain up (pardon the punchy profanity).

Finally, the second letter of RaGa to the academy sounded like: “Take that! – you S of a B!”. Checkmate!

(as soon as I finished writing this, I noticed that kvchellappa shared a Youtube video and I had to watch it. Pretty much in line ...)

Wow!

On point#3 quite a few padams, tillanas are technically on some wodeyar or bhoopathi or some wealthy patron. isn't it? so one can certainly do it; been done too.