What is a good singing voice and should n't we all aspire for it ?

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ganesh_mourthy
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Joined: 02 Sep 2007, 23:08

What is a good singing voice and should n't we all aspire for it ?

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

This question has long intrigued me and I hope I am close to finding an answer. Looking forward to hearing from others.

Basically, there is a difference between good singing and an inherently good voice. Even as we speak we can notice it. There are people whose voice gets raspy, and shaky and there are some who give a feeling that they are gifted with a well-controlled voice. Sometimes, you hear a good voice lent to a movie actor and it makes you feel that he/she is personified of whatever character the voice depicts.

I still remember the Mohan and Surender voice used to give a sauve to Mohan especially if you remember the film, Mounaraagam. I used to know a voice actor who lent voice to famous yesteryear heroines. But when she spoke otherwise in a social gathering it was not so. It is a type of affectation that makes them sound appealing. You train it in a certain way.

Now coming to singing there are certain voices that I feel who had worked more than others consciously to bring out that charm and a dulcet tone in them. This is certainly not inherent.
I used to be of the wrong opinion that a strong control over pitch and clarity when you sing is enough to produce good music. It produces good music technically, but the charm is an entirely different aspect.

Then there is a singing part, intricate control of notes both subtle and clear movements. You might think once you achieve that you are going to sound amazing. But no, unfortunately.

A singer could be singing at different strengths at different places completely out of his control but still in perfect pitch and micro notes. It could be soft at some point, strong at another point, whispery at one time ...yet it could be perfect pitch with perfect curves and oscillations. This is like moving from SA to ma in an Indian violin, sliding back in a Chinese violin, and one another note in a Stradivarius violin all in perfect pitch. You can feel that sweet spot you are achieving for a fleeting moment with your Stradivarius violin in your throat, but it disappears right away.

In our classical music (both Hindustani and Carnatic ) we do not wish to enter this area much as we are busy with other technical aspects. But I think Western classical music does do, as well it is a desired quality in film music. I have talked to a few classical singers about this and they find it hard to sink in them. Some feel that it is not even needed.

But this quality really is captivating and it is hard to master. When I hear a great voice, I see that they can consciously bring out and play the different violin within them that they can manipulate within seconds with great precision. This is a meticulous use of voice and this is not inherent. It takes years.

From a musician's point of view, your ear sharpens over the years. You hear many things that you never heard before. That sophistication can discern many subtle sounds.

I was listening to a lot of BMK these days and I feel that apart from his other vidwats he has also worked on this aspect.

I am starting to feel that it doesn't hurt to set aside a part of your learning time to hone this skill because after a while you lose the ability to maneuver your voice..it is the voice that maneuvres you.

Ganesh mourthy

RSR
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Re: What is a good singing voice and should n't we all aspire for it ?

Post by RSR »

What do you think of Julie Andrews songs in Sound of music and MAry poppins? Didsclaimer,,i do not know of western light music. I am intrrested in your opinion.

ganesh_mourthy
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Re: What is a good singing voice and should n't we all aspire for it ?

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

I have listened to the songs of the sound of music several times. It is definitely soothing and has great songs by her. And me neither, I do not know much about the light songs across the pond.

Celion dion is another I immediately remember. For cinema singing it is very much essential as you have to move from genre to genre and all that you have is limited hours with your Music Directors - one has to be conscious of the voice always and there cannot be a bad day hence bad voice.

shankarank
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Re: What is a good singing voice and should n't we all aspire for it ?

Post by shankarank »

In our classical music (both Hindustani and Carnatic ) we do not wish to enter this area much as we are busy with other technical aspects. But I think Western classical music does do, as well it is a desired quality in film music. I have talked to a few classical singers about this and they find it hard to sink in them. Some feel that it is not even needed.
This has been said from various early days. From the official seat of musicology, this one: Prof SRJ once quoted his Guru (Sri Musiri) that, as much as the voice gets better, music becomes less and less :lol: .

We have the abstraction called rAgA. A western orchestra for me, is a bunch of horns blowing off :mrgreen:. Unless you lock yourself into that abstraction of a rAgA, there is no hope. If you do, then you can transcend these barriers.

There will be popular, good voice musicians. And many good voices still want to try their luck with Carnatic music! :D .

Question is, do you want to chase popular musicians? Or be a popular rasika instead ? :lol: And this is not to say that you need to gain some knowledge in the conventional sense of it. The very act of sitting and listening is knowledge and experiential inputs are knowledge as well.

Oh! I forgot. You can try the other method. Be autistic to the melodic spectrum and train the attention on the rhythm. ARI format has ensured that Alap is minimal. For 20 minutes you can twiddle your smart phone. As long as there are not jarring (pisurus) sounds, it shouldn't bother you!

ganesh_mourthy
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Joined: 02 Sep 2007, 23:08

Re: What is a good singing voice and should n't we all aspire for it ?

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

Hello Shankarank

Yes I wanted you to cut in and you did with some quirky inputs and yet valuable. Bunch of horn blowing ? ..oh well then expand the spectrogram of ours and all you see is kaakkaa kaalaala kirukkunaa maadhiri. Very few are good kirukkal.

You practice the raaga and krithi with the daily concession to your voice condition , clearing up your throat....little orakka .. and less orakka .... sangathi vandhuduchU .... super ( aanaa ethana pisuru ... . kosuru ok...adhellaa.m OK ... sangadhi vandhuduthu illa ...
this is what your are going to get into your daily practice. :D

vasanthakokilam
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Re: What is a good singing voice and should n't we all aspire for it ?

Post by vasanthakokilam »

ganesh_mourthy, Nicely written setup of the topic

Shnkarank, why can't we have both? It is not that some uncertainty principle governs such things

ganesh_mourthy
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Joined: 02 Sep 2007, 23:08

Re: What is a good singing voice and should n't we all aspire for it ?

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

I remember watching this years ago , and it makes all sense to me now .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIqUX2QbLGw

thenpaanan
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Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 19:45

Re: What is a good singing voice and should n't we all aspire for it ?

Post by thenpaanan »

vasanthakokilam wrote: 15 Jun 2023, 09:25 ganesh_mourthy, Nicely written setup of the topic

Shnkarank, why can't we have both? It is not that some uncertainty principle governs such things
Indeed. Why can't we have both? I can only speak from my own experience. Some years ago I asked the musician who taught my daughters Western voice to teach me as well. At first he demurred saying he did not know anything about Indian music. I told him I wanted to learn the mechanics of voice, how to produce sound sweetly and effortlessly and he agreed. He would listen to me sing my Carnatic kritis and then ask me questions. After a few sessions he got the hang of what I was doing and then started giving me voice exercises. These exercises have everything to do with using the voice apparatus properly: singing perfectly on pitch every time, extracting more resonance, moving across registers without cracking, etc. I have managed to incorporate almost all of it into my singing. I think that my Carnatic music improved significantly but that is not for me to judge. I even taught a voice workshop for Indian music singers explaining the techniques and exercises that can benefit us. I cannot say that there was a uniformly positive response. The people who liked it liked it and a lot more people were unmoved. C'est la vie.

-T

shankarank
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Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: What is a good singing voice and should n't we all aspire for it ?

Post by shankarank »

Since the opening post mentions Dr. BMK, it is not very difficult to see that his appeal , is no less due to it's closeness to the modern (modern of the 20th century) playback singing. This is not to undermine his genuis and his position and stature as one that is deeply entrenched in Carnatic music.

He is one bin and all other musicians will be in another. If an AI classifier were to be trained with a set of "Objective" ;) parameters and asked to classify voice textures, he will surely fall closer to playback voice, in clustering.

A casual conversation post Dinner, when the idea of him to be honored with Bharat ratna came up, a musician simply reacted : " Oh no, then everybody will ask why we are all not singing like him!" :lol:

So @ganesh_murthy, you would have already unnerved a few musicians.

This I say knowing the tastes of @ganesh_mourthy a bit as well ;) and having been there myself. Pardon me a bit, if I am overstepping!

In that regard, it is worthwhile to look at Playback singers, infact a remarkable one that gave what sounded like Authentic concert music.

K J Yesudas!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLFsT7Ku9IY

This is an old recording , unavailable in the 80s. Our departed forum member CRama, wrote about Kerala musicians in Sruti and in one of the articles covered Sri Krishnan Kutty Nair who was a stock accompanist to KJY. CRama mentions about a last concert in 1985 where Sri Krishnan Kutty Nair passed away, At that time oblivious of even a KJY concert happening in my place, I was hunting his studio recordings in the shops near the Meenakshi temple. When will a new release come?

The above 1976 concert contains a nice trisram svaram, which I would have known about it a decade earlier, were full length concerts were to be made available then!!

We also need to inquire into what sort of sound we are aiming to produce in this music. If you listen to KJY's Karaharapriya, nowhere he lands in the signature kampita gandharam of KHP. He glosses over it. Sri MC on his return sticks to that.

So that alone will make his presentation non Carnatic , I suppose.

But DaasaNNan knows, for his music and it's target audience, that one is full of pisuru!

For that how does it matter what the voice is?

If I were to wear that hat and look at innocently the Carnatic mileu , they would appear to be from another planet!

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