Tambura -- Jiva

Ideas and innovations in Indian classical music
Post Reply
thenpaanan
Posts: 635
Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 19:45

Tambura -- Jiva

Post by thenpaanan »

I did not see a suitable pre-established topic for this post so I thought it appropriate to start a new one.

I stumbled upon this site recently -- other members may already know about it, but just in case you have not seen it, here it is.

https://www.tosslevy.nl/instrument-main ... a-threads/

In spite of having spent so many years experimenting with my tambura I did not know/discover this basic fact illustrated in the linked video, that the color of the tambura's sound can be intentionally changed by changing the thickness of the jIva/jwAri used. Until now I had been using the same kind of string for jIva based on advice I've received in the past and never thought of fiddling with the thickness of the jIvA string, but this gives a new dimension to tambura tuning. The site has other interesting videos and articles on tambura tuning as well.


Respectfully,
Thenpaanan

Nick H
Posts: 9379
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03

Re: Tambura -- Jiva

Post by Nick H »

I wonder if this is the same guy who contributed some posts on tambura playing and care to this site, some years ago? I don't recall the name.

thenpaanan
Posts: 635
Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 19:45

Re: Tambura -- Jiva

Post by thenpaanan »

Nick H wrote: 05 Feb 2023, 23:36 I wonder if this is the same guy who contributed some posts on tambura playing and care to this site, some years ago? I don't recall the name.
This gentleman's name is Toss Levy and he is from the Netherlands. A quick search of this portal did not bring up any mention of this name.

The only other mention of the science of tanpura tuning I could find on this forum is about Martin Spaink's work (see http://www.medieval.org/music/world/martin_est.html and https://www.carnaticstudent.org/on-the-tanpura-tambura/) and quoted by Shri Govindan.

Martin is a member of this forum, but he has not posted in a very long time here. Martin's posts were what first opened my eyes to the great wonders of the tambura's sound.

-T

uday_shankar
Posts: 1467
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:37

Re: Tambura -- Jiva

Post by uday_shankar »

Martin Spaink died in Portugal in Oct 2020, as reported by his companion, at less than 60 years of age. RIP. He was also from the Netherlands, but spent the last days of his life in Portugal. I've have several illuminating chats with him over the years.

Nick H
Posts: 9379
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03

Re: Tambura -- Jiva

Post by Nick H »

uday_shankar wrote: 07 Feb 2023, 12:58 Martin Spaink died in Portugal in Oct 2020...
Sad to hear this.

thenpaanan
Posts: 635
Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 19:45

Re: Tambura -- Jiva

Post by thenpaanan »

uday_shankar wrote: 07 Feb 2023, 12:58 Martin Spaink died in Portugal in Oct 2020, as reported by his companion, at less than 60 years of age. RIP. He was also from the Netherlands, but spent the last days of his life in Portugal. I've have several illuminating chats with him over the years.
Oh my. Surprised and saddened to hear this. I interacted with Martin a very long time ago via Usenet newsgroups when there were no apps for international communication otherwise. I always found him ready to help with his very rare specialized knowledge of the mystery of stringed instruments. He was self-deprecating and humble to a fault, not accepting a single encomium.

For example, he was the one who disabused me of the idea that the sound of the extraneous gAndhAra is necessary. Before that I was told by my Indian teachers that the gAndhAra sound is the sign of a well-tuned tanpura and should not be avoided. Martin showed me how he tuned tanpuras beautifully without that sound.

He has a youtube channel with recordings of him playing variously tuned tanpuras, whose sound is an ideal for me on how a tanpura should sound. Clear, precise, harmonious, sustained, and with no unnecessary extra notes.

I am glad and grateful to have known this great and gentle soul.
-T

thenpaanan
Posts: 635
Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 19:45

Re: Tambura -- Jiva

Post by thenpaanan »

On an unrelated note, I see that the popular app for tambura called iTabla (there must an equivalent Android version) and iTable Pro have a setting for tanpura called "Alternative C# Jivari" which results in the app producing a twangier sound. This kind of twangy sound is a specialty of North Indian tanpuras, I have never heard it from a South Indian one (I should caveat that this is based on old data, there a many new models of South Indian tamburas for which this may not hold true). A short description says "for male C# tanpura sound" but I see that the alternative Jivari applies to any key not just C# if you turn it on (even though is is called C#). This twangy sound is easily produced on a typical Miraj male tanpura, so much so I suspect this is the most common male tanpura sound. This is possibly because the wires are thicker but I am not sure.

Anyway, my curiosity is on two fronts -- first, why is this set apart from the normal settings? The default is off. You have to navigate to the settings and intentionally turn it on. So it must be that most people don't care for it. I myself have vacillated on it. Sometimes I prefer the less twangy sound (perhaps because of bias of training). I find it harder to sing with the twangier sound. At other times I find the twangier sound more beautiful. What do you guys think?

Second, what do the members on this forum prefer? If you use an acoustic tambura, do you prefer the North Indian or South Indian version? There have been eminent Carnatic musicians who have been seen sporting what looks like a North Indian tanpura. MSS and Voleti (even S Kalyanaraman and Bombay Jayashree if memory serves) come to mind. On the other hand I have never seen a South Indian tambura at a Hindustani concert. How come?

-T

uday_shankar
Posts: 1467
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:37

Re: Tambura -- Jiva

Post by uday_shankar »

I don't use manual tamburas because I don't have enough limbs to play it and practice music, although I try to repair them, set them up, etc for friends.

I like the sound of a good flat top Thanjavur tambura better than a Miraj or Hemendra. That said, it is really rare to find a good Thanjavur tambura which has that deep resonant quality, as well as the proper bridge curvature for optimal jiva (the nice slow extended buzz..). Old recordings of the masters like MMI and others have beautifully resonant Thanjavur tamburas, perfectly tuned by real tambura artists or vocalists like Vembu Iyer who cared about it.

Here's an example of a kind of Tambura I really love. This is a recording of an old doordarshan concert by Alathur Srinivasa Iyer with other great vidvans as accompanists. Including tambura...Vairamangalam Lakshminarayanan sir in this case which hasn't been acknowledged in the credits . Check out the divine sound of the tambura right at the beginning, when the visual announcement for the song Kaddanavariki is put up. For some reason it doenst allow me to put up the URL but its the first thign that shows up when you google Alathur Srinivasa Iyer

thenpaanan
Posts: 635
Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 19:45

Re: Tambura -- Jiva

Post by thenpaanan »

uday_shankar wrote: 21 Feb 2023, 06:25 Here's an example of a kind of Tambura I really love. This is a recording of an old doordarshan concert by Alathur Srinivasa Iyer with other great vidvans as accompanists. Including tambura...Vairamangalam Lakshminarayanan sir in this case which hasn't been acknowledged in the credits . Check out the divine sound of the tambura right at the beginning, when the visual announcement for the song Kaddanavariki is put up. For some reason it doenst allow me to put up the URL but its the first thign that shows up when you google Alathur Srinivasa Iyer
If you are referring to this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bg2rCuObeYo, I prefer the notes a bit clearer and more separated. Perhaps it is a matter of strumming speed. I find that many tanjAvUr tamburas create a "smeared" effect (I don't know how else to describe it) where it almost sounds like a sruthi potti of yore. Just a personal bias.

That said, one Carnatic vidwAn for whom I was to put tambura on stage, explained to me how a tambura should sound. He said I should pluck so softly that one does not hear the individual strums of each string, and the sound of all the strings should blend into one to create a steady cloud of sound without break. By that metric, the linked video tambura does very well. At that concert, after that lecture I got so nervous that I plucked the strings very very softly as a result of which the sound volume was not enough for the vidwan, and he was dissatisfied with my playing. At one point in the concert to my great embarrassment, he took the tambura out of my hands and played it himself while singing, while I just sat on stage doing nothing. After a while he returned the tambura to me and regular programming continued.

-T

thenpaanan
Posts: 635
Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 19:45

Re: Tambura -- Jiva

Post by thenpaanan »

Related to the earlier thread on Martin Spaink, apparently he was also a champion whistler. I did not know this until now. Wonders never cease. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxyBN6-L9EU

-T

uday_shankar
Posts: 1467
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:37

Re: Tambura -- Jiva

Post by uday_shankar »

thenpaanan wrote: 21 Feb 2023, 11:11 If you are referring to this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bg2rCuObeYo, I prefer the notes a bit clearer and more separated. Perhaps it is a matter of strumming speed. I find that many tanjAvUr tamburas create a "smeared" effect (I don't know how else to describe it) where it almost sounds like a sruthi potti of yore. Just a personal bias.
Yes!!!! Thank you. This is exactly the video I was talking about. And you're right about the "smeared" effect, and that is exactly the reason I love the Thanjavur tamburas :). We're at opposite ends of this :D

thenpaanan
Posts: 635
Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 19:45

Re: Tambura -- Jiva

Post by thenpaanan »

Yesterday, a friend of mine who acquired a brand new Hindustani tanpura from India called me to tell me that he had "successfully" tuned the tanpura. It was a new thing for him because it was the first time he had a North Indian tanpura, his previous tambura was a South Indian one.

He said something that caught my attention. He said he knew he had successfully tuned the tanpura because "he could hear the antara gAndhAram".

I am curious if this is a good/reliable indicator of a well-tuned tambura. Does the appearance of the gAndhAram in the tambura sound tell you that the tuning is good? I have tuned tamburas, some of which did have this sound, some which stopped producing the sound somewhere in the tuning process, and some that never emanated the sound.

Can anyone advise on this phenomenon? Is the antara gAndhAram sound necessary or sufficient for tambura tuning?

-T

uday_shankar
Posts: 1467
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:37

Re: Tambura -- Jiva

Post by uday_shankar »

@thenpaanan, the presence of the antara gandhara is entirely the way the Mandara shadja string ( or kharaj as it is known in HM) is buzzing. This is the complex of the bridge construction, Jiva thickness, placement etc, which accentuates the 5th harmonic of that string, i.e. antara gandhara. The 5th harmonic of the two main sarani string are too high up to contribute any significant harmonic energies. More importantly none of the harmonic energies comes from the interplay of strings. So an out of tune tambura can sound an antara gandhara for sure !

thenpaanan
Posts: 635
Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 19:45

Re: Tambura -- Jiva

Post by thenpaanan »

uday_shankar wrote: 29 Mar 2023, 09:02 @thenpaanan, the presence of the antara gandhara is entirely the way the Mandara shadja string ( or kharaj as it is known in HM) is buzzing. This is the complex of the bridge construction, Jiva thickness, placement etc, which accentuates the 5th harmonic of that string, i.e. antara gandhara. The 5th harmonic of the two main sarani string are too high up to contribute any significant harmonic energies. More importantly none of the harmonic energies comes from the interplay of strings. So an out of tune tambura can sound an antara gandhara for sure !
Thanks for the explanation.

In fact, in some tamburas I have found that the antara gAndhAram (which I now understand is from the low sa string alone) is so overpowering you can barely hear the sa and sometimes not all. And sometimes this note comes at the merest touch of the low sa string, so you cannot mute it by playing softly.

Since this extra note does not happen in all tamburas, is this complex construction combination causing this fifth harmonic considered a good thing? Is it a mark of a well-constructed tambura? Or just something you have to put up with?

-T

Vayoo Flute
Posts: 104
Joined: 15 Jan 2018, 00:53

Re: Tambura -- Jiva

Post by Vayoo Flute »

Just to add and illustrate what Uday is saying, suppose the main Sa is pitched at 200hz (just making the numbers easy to compute). The mandra Sa will then be at 100hz. The 5th harmonic of the mandra Sa will be at 500hz. Now 500/200 is really 5/4 but the next octave. This is the frequency of the antara gAndhAram at the next octave. Every musical instrument produces not only the base frequency but many many harmonics of the base note. It is the weighting of the harmonics that give the unique tone characteristics of each instrument. Even two flutes of the same pitch will have slightly different tones because of this due to the variation of the wood, thickness of the bamboo the way the holes are cut, etc... As Uday says, it is the construction method that makes the antara gAndhAram more pronounced in some tamburas. Is this a good thing? I think it is a matter of personal taste. Personally, I like it because the antara gAndharam coordinates so well with the base Sa, Pa. I like it even when the antara gAndhAram is not used in a particular rAgam.

thenpaanan
Posts: 635
Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 19:45

Re: Tambura -- Jiva

Post by thenpaanan »

Vayoo Flute wrote: 29 Mar 2023, 20:24 Just to add and illustrate what Uday is saying, suppose the main Sa is pitched at 200hz (just making the numbers easy to compute). The mandra Sa will then be at 100hz. The 5th harmonic of the mandra Sa will be at 500hz. Now 500/200 is really 5/4 but the next octave. This is the frequency of the antara gAndhAram at the next octave. Every musical instrument produces not only the base frequency but many many harmonics of the base note. It is the weighting of the harmonics that give the unique tone characteristics of each instrument. Even two flutes of the same pitch will have slightly different tones because of this due to the variation of the wood, thickness of the bamboo the way the holes are cut, etc... As Uday says, it is the construction method that makes the antara gAndhAram more pronounced in some tamburas. Is this a good thing? I think it is a matter of personal taste. Personally, I like it because the antara gAndharam coordinates so well with the base Sa, Pa. I like it even when the antara gAndhAram is not used in a particular rAgam.
Thanks for the exegesis. You and Uday have explained it very well,

As far as personal taste goes, I distinctly remember that in the early days of my handling tamburas, I used to quite enjoy the loud antara gAndhAram. In fact, when I purchased my first tambura, which I prized very much, I was very frustrated because the antara gAndhAram was weak, almost non-existent. Add to that various people telling me with absolute confidence and authority that my tambura was low quality or I did not know how to tune it because of the lack of a strong gandharam sound -- it got me very stressed. :lol:

Much later, I started to find the same sound annoying especially when it is loud, because it seemed to interfere with my fine tuning of the other strings.

I don't know when this change in my preference happened. The only reason I can think for the change is the many other tamburas that I have handled since then. I recall one vidwan who tuned my tambura and fiddled and fiddled with the jiva for an eternity until the antara gAndhAram sound was totally gone and then sighed contentedly. It was a revelation to me then that some people don't want that sound!

Of course, since those times we have had a plethora of various electronic devices and most of them don't have that sound. And I've never missed it.

These days I aim to create that pleasant feeling that comes with the consonance of the gandharam with sa and pa, using my own voice. I have not mastered it to any consistency, but at times I have started a performance by directly singing the ga note first and that has sometimes elicited a surprised exclamation from someone in the audience. An indescribable feeling.

-T

Post Reply