Prosody in CM Songs

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sankark
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Prosody in CM Songs

Post by sankark »

bhakthim dehi wrote: 08 Jan 2018, 20:00
OK. Let us suppose someone starts the Nattai pancharatnam song with "Ananda kaaraka". This is a valid and worthwhile embellishment. This is what I meant by splitting a compound word meaningfully.
Though, ananda karaka looks like a good splitting, meaning is not complete. And by splitting at this point (anandakaraka in jagadananda karaka) violates the rule of prasa. I say it again, if we get connected with the composer (any great composer for that matter) and his saghityam, we never attempt these things. Again, it takes time and till that time it appears only like a subjective opinion.
Didn't want to pile this up in the SS@MA thread. Requires its own thread.

How relevant is prosody - assuming prAsa is part of prosody - to songs in CM tradition? Again I assume prAsa here refers to edhugai (dvitIyAkshara prAsam?), mOnai (?? prathamAksharap prasam between/within metrical units).

shankarank
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Re: Prosody in CM Songs

Post by shankarank »

First you have to answer as to "what is CM Tradition?" to be able to ask this question. :mrgreen:

And the larger question of "what is a tradition?" :!: :idea: :ugeek:

bhakthim dehi
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Re: Prosody in CM Songs

Post by bhakthim dehi »

Again I assume prAsa here refers to edhugai (dvitIyAkshara prAsam?), mOnai (?? prathamAksharap prasam between/within metrical units).
Yes. It refers to prasam- dvitya and anthya, muhana, yati, yamakam and various meters.
How relevant is prosody - assuming prAsa is part of prosody - to songs in CM tradition?
Almost all the Uttama Vaggeyakara from Sri Annamacharya till Sri Subbarama Deekshithar has followed this. I have covered vaggeyakara who has used Telugu and Sanskrit as a medium. Grandson of Annamacharya has even written a treatise by name "Samkeerthana Lakshanamu" covering the aspects of these along with the various meters.
Muhanaprasaanthyaprasa Vyavastha, attributed to Svati Tirunal covers this aspect.

shankarank
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Re: Prosody in CM Songs

Post by shankarank »

http://thyagaraja-vaibhavam.blogspot.co ... avulu.html
A 1candra vadanuni(y)anda candamunu
hRday(A)ravindamuna jUci
brahm(A)nandam(a)nubhavincu vAr(endarO)
1 – candara vadanuni – canduru varNuni. The hue of the Lord is blue-black. SrI tyAgarAja has, nowhere, mentioned the hue of the Lord is white i.e. the hue of moon. He uses the word ‘canduru bOlu mukhamu’ in the kRiti ‘ennaDu jUtunO’ – rAga kalAvati. Therefore, while ‘canduru’ may be correct, ‘varNuni’ seems to be incorrect.
Is Candra correct according to prAsa? Why can't he be called the color of the moon when the moon waxes and wanes. Even taking the vaRNuni.. it can be shining face even if it is a black hue!

And this has been discussed : On a quick glance I don't see prAsA aspect discussed. "dra" in candra cannot qualify as prAsa as it is samyuktAkshara, i.e. kUTTezhuttu or double consonant.

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=4711

And further cross references by Sri VGV in the above link is an invalid link as per the new link parameters ( a cleanup of such links may be required). Correcting it here ( I guessed the old param 'id' as the new param 't' ):

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=967#p17870

shankarank
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Re: Prosody in CM Songs

Post by shankarank »

The akshara prAsA is one thing. The chanda prAsA ( if this is not correct - I extended the term) also is maintained by retaining canduru. This is not guaranteed in many non trinity compositions ( I cannot recollect immediately any trinity ones where this is not present).

E.G. tAyE yaSOda is followed by taiyalE kELaDi - where chanda prAsA is not maintained. The dhIrga is not there.

Even though gIta gOvindam did not have akshara prAsA , it had chanda prAsA :

E.g:

प्रलयपयोधिजले

followed by

क्षितिरतिविपुलतरे

and continues down ..

वसति दशनशिखरे

shankarank
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Re: Prosody in CM Songs

Post by shankarank »

Take that back.. "ai" is considered neDil and chanda prAsa is maintained. Before anybody noticed ;)

That also says how sangatis can be devised and handled. Will come back with one another example along with this.

But candra vs canduru is a convincing case favoring the latter!

rshankar
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Re: Prosody in CM Songs

Post by rshankar »

shankarank wrote: 10 Jan 2018, 05:02E.G. tAyE yaSOda is followed by taiyalE kELaDi - where chanda prAsA is not maintained. The dhIrga is not there.
pallavi
tAyE yaSOdA undan Ayar kulattuditta
mAyan gOpAla kRshNan seyyum jAlattai kELaDi

anupallavi
taiyalE kELaDi undan payanai pOlavE inda
vaiyagattil oru piLLai ammammA nAn kaNDadillai

caraNam
kAlinil silambu konja kai vaLai kulunga muttu mAlai asaiya teruvAsalil vandAn
kAlasaivum kaiasaivum tALattODisainda vara nIla mEgha kaNNan ivan narttanam ADinAnDi
bAlan enRu tAviaNaittEn aNaitta yennai mAlai iTTavan pOl vAyil muttamiTTAnDi
bAlanallaDi un magan jAlamAga seivadellAm nAlupergaL kETka solla nANam migavAgudaDi

How is the dvitIyAkshara prAsa including the preceding vowel (long versus short) not maintained? I do not think there is any requirement for the same letters/vowel types to be carried from the pallavi (tAyE) into the anupallavi (taiyalE).....

shankarank
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Re: Prosody in CM Songs

Post by shankarank »

To clarify again, I was comparing tAyE - with taiyalE , the prAsA between first line of pallavi and first line of anupallavi. Forgot for a moment that "ai" is dIRgha (neDil).

The example as regards handling the chanda in sangati formation:

Since tAyE is on samam ( usually sung that way - unless a deliberate offset is made) , the first sangati at least should be on samam. In fact as sangati's progress or even with same melodic sangati, first paiyanai can be slid to 1/2 and slowly taiyalE can be moved. That is saganti making on syllable position all by itself!

Same goes with jagadAnandakAraka. Since that is on samam, gaganAdhipa can be taken on samam to start with , and then kulaja can be moved 1/2 before moving gagana can be moved. In a solo rendition artiste, a vyavahAram inclined artiste can repeat the off-samam sangati in the same meter but with two offset , causing syncopation throughout the line, before going to the actual 1/2 offset sangati.

That by itself gives 4 or 5 sangatis just on the time-line variation basis, without turbulence (uruTTufying!) on gagana! Smooth flight! :lol:

rshankar
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Re: Prosody in CM Songs

Post by rshankar »

To clarify, why should the tAyE be compared to taiyalE/ - is there a requirement for such comparisons between pallavi and anupallavi/ - there are many compositions I am aware of where the pallavi and anupallavi do not match in this fashion.

shankarank
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Re: Prosody in CM Songs

Post by shankarank »

dvitIyAkshara prAsam - the main requirement is there only, as per kriti lakshana. Bhaktim dEhi may clarify. Rest are optional. Even between two succesive lines ( even pratamAkshara ) of the same section is optional. Any prAsA in caraNam is also optional bonus - IIRC.

shankarank
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Re: Prosody in CM Songs

Post by shankarank »

viewtopic.php?t=16135

is an old discussion on this topic.

shankarank
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Re: Prosody in CM Songs

Post by shankarank »

https://books.google.com/books?id=HkFCh ... ic&f=false

That link provides a glimpse into Smt. Pantula Rama's book Page 95 that discusses prAsa and yati maitri.

She discusses the caraNam of brOva bhArama.

1st & 2nd line - dvitIyAkshara prAsa maitri
1st & 3rd line - dvitIyAkshara prAsa maitri

3rd and 4th - yati maitri

Probably the last one above is what I tried to say as chanda prAsA!. I guess rules don't demand that between 1st lines of pallavi and anupallavi , but if they are there, they could be highlighted, before using any graha-prayOgam!

>>On further thought: May be chanda prAsA is an unique concept as prAsA is about how a line begins. yati maitri may refer to the yati of the whole line-pair being referred to.

P.S: In the cited book: there is a discussion about prAsA which was available on first view in page 82 - a SlOka being quoted. The preview limit was enforced. I bought the book :D
Last edited by shankarank on 11 Jan 2018, 07:12, edited 3 times in total.

shankarank
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Re: Prosody in CM Songs

Post by shankarank »

viewtopic.php?t=14676#p179549
P: shri mahA gaNapathim bhAvayE shrtajana mandAram shrIkaram
A: mAdhavAdi vinutam shiva sutam mAnita guNagaNitam agaNitam
C: mUlAdhAra hitam samuditam mUSaka varavAham sudEham
Anandamrta praNavAkaram AndOlika khEli vihAram
We have to find ways to fix that! Either add or remove SrI altogether.
P: SrI mahA gaNapathim bhAvayE SRtajana mandAram SrIkaram
A: SrI mAdhavAti vinutam Siva sutam Sata mAnita guNagaNitam agaNitam
C: SrI mUlAdhAra hitam samuditam ???mUSaka varavAham sudEham
Anandamrta praNavAkaram AndOlika khEli vihAram

Govindaswamy
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Re: Prosody in CM Songs

Post by Govindaswamy »

shankarank wrote: 10 Jan 2018, 22:51 Take that back.. "ai" is considered neDil and chanda prAsa is maintained. Before anybody noticed ;

ai (ஐ) is a long vowel of two mathras duration. In Dravidian languages it is considered as a single letter. In North Indian languages it is ponounced as அ+இ. a+e. In either case its duration is 2 Mathras. The latest trend in Tamil is to write this as அய், கய் etc. The duration becomes 1.5 mathras.

shankarank
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Re: Prosody in CM Songs

Post by shankarank »

Yes Sir - "arai Idattil taLLi pADiyE kuril AhiviTTatu!" - being sung always at 1/2 offset it has been musically shortened. Blame the musicians ;)

shankarank
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Re: Prosody in CM Songs

Post by shankarank »

shankarank wrote: 11 Jan 2018, 01:41 The example as regards handling the chanda in sangati formation:
.......
the first sangati at least should be on samam. ....That is sangati making on syllable position all by itself!

Same goes with jagadAnandakAraka. Since that is on samam, gaganAdhipa can be taken on samam to start with , and then kulaja can be moved 1/2 before moving gagana can be moved.

...without turbulence (uruTTufying!) on gagana! Smooth flight! :lol:
At least somebody else thought about it as well! 8-)

https://youtu.be/dbicyN1-Fec?t=110

idO pODukirAr pAr - atu sangati. enga... murubhUpathy aNNA mridangam :lol:

sankark
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Re: Prosody in CM Songs

Post by sankark »

rshankar wrote: 11 Jan 2018, 01:02
shankarank wrote: 10 Jan 2018, 05:02E.G. tAyE yaSOda is followed by taiyalE kELaDi - where chanda prAsA is not maintained. The dhIrga is not there.
pallavi
tAyE yaSOdA undan Ayar kulattuditta
mAyan gOpAla kRshNan seyyum jAlattai kELaDi

anupallavi
taiyalE kELaDi undan payanai pOlavE inda
vaiyagattil oru piLLai ammammA nAn kaNDadillai

caraNam
kAlinil silambu konja kai vaLai kulunga muttu mAlai asaiya teruvAsalil vandAn
kAlasaivum kaiasaivum tALattODisainda vara nIla mEgha kaNNan ivan narttanam ADinAnDi
bAlan enRu tAviaNaittEn aNaitta yennai mAlai iTTavan pOl vAyil muttamiTTAnDi
bAlanallaDi un magan jAlamAga seivadellAm nAlupergaL kETka solla nANam migavAgudaDi

How is the dvitIyAkshara prAsa including the preceding vowel (long versus short) not maintained? I do not think there is any requirement for the same letters/vowel types to be carried from the pallavi (tAyE) into the anupallavi (taiyalE).....
I know it is pretty late a response but realized it just now. But the edhugai on the charanam is on li/la/la/la, isn't it?

thenpaanan
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Re: Prosody in CM Songs

Post by thenpaanan »

In the nAdanAmakriya composition by jayachAmarajeEndra wodeyAr,

the pallavi starts "shiva shiva shiva bh0"

whereas the anupallavi starts

"sharva sarvAnandakara"

Is the pairing of shiva and sharva permitted by dvitIyaprAsam rules?

Specifically, is the ~r syllable in sharva to be ignored? The rest of the kriti seems to follow the rule plainly (namaste vs namaka and kAmArE vs kAmEshvari).

-T

shankarank
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Re: Prosody in CM Songs

Post by shankarank »

shaRva saRvAnandakara - the R is a vowel. We had a related discussion in a SrI tyAgaraja kriti as well in another thread about R

So it is a double vowel. It makes the mAtra two. But technically it could pass, even though when sounded two vowels make it longer.

thenpaanan
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Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 19:45

Re: Prosody in CM Songs

Post by thenpaanan »

shankarank wrote: 03 Sep 2022, 21:43 shaRva saRvAnandakara - the R is a vowel. We had a related discussion in a SrI tyAgaraja kriti as well in another thread about R

So it is a double vowel. It makes the mAtra two. But technically it could pass, even though when sounded two vowels make it longer.
Ah I see. Thank you. You are saying the vowel is actually -ar-, which is a short vowel to match the 'i' in shiva. Makes sense.

-T

RSR
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Re: Prosody in CM Songs

Post by RSR »

It is unlikely that Thyagaraja Swami's kruthis paid any conscious attention to so called prosody rules. His lyrics were more about the theme, emotions and imagery.
Kalki's famous poem has been doing the rounds with wrong prosody.
maalaip pozhuthinilae oru NaaL
..
vaalaik kumaran maru il
maa mathi poal mukatthaan
should have been the correct version.
===============================
last stanza is very fine.
peN mathip paethamaiyaal
....
kaN vizhitthae ezhunthen
...
vaNNa mayil aerum perumaan
...
kaNkaL uRankaavo ..
..
====
It looks as if Tamizh poems have , like Sanskrit, an inbuilt and natural grace which lends itself to ' ethukai' and ' monai ' effortlessly.

In the case of Trinty compositions, it is the melody that takes precedence.

shankarank
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Re: Prosody in CM Songs

Post by shankarank »

dvitiyAkshara prAsa or edukai is only in Southern languages - referencing Dr N. Ramanathan's article. Samskritam compositions got it later on during the interaction with South.

kALidAsa has a lone opening Sloka vAgarthAviva - jagatafpitarau that seem to have it. But mostly not used.

RSR
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Re: Prosody in CM Songs

Post by RSR »

Dinamani vamsa ..Harikambodhi- Tyagaraja Swamy
--
दिन मणि वंश
...... तिलक लावण्य
दीन शरण्य
---
मनविनि बागुग मदिनि तलञ्चुचु
.. चनुवुन(ने)लु चालुगा जालु (दि)
--
शर्व विनुत ननु संरक्षिञ्चनु
गर्वमु एल काचुवा(रॆ)वरे
निर्विकार गुण निर्मल कर धृत
पर्वत त्यागराज सर्वस्वमौ (दि)
====================================
Smt.MS sings DinamaNi vamsa
https://youtu.be/kM03606EyfM

RSR
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Re: Prosody in CM Songs

Post by RSR »

REF-P-22
@shankarank From the few sanskrit compositions in KrushnaLeelaTarangini, pre-dating the Trinity, prosody in musical lyrics seems to have been much cared for in CM.
Secondly, CM Sanskrit composers seem to have scrupulously avoided the 'ha' of most sanskrit nouns.

shankarank
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Re: Prosody in CM Songs

Post by shankarank »

Indeed , but just before that gIta govindam didn't have it. Tarangams were composed down South anyways.

shankarank
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Re: Prosody in CM Songs

Post by shankarank »

RSR wrote: 12 Sep 2022, 22:39 Secondly, CM Sanskrit composers seem to have scrupulously avoided the 'ha' of most sanskrit nouns.
That reminded me of this old discussion:

viewtopic.php?p=308516

If YAgnya valkyassmRti gave high status to sangItam, then sangItam should transcend rules of grammar, where appropriate! :ugeek: .

Several examples in vEdas : SIkshAm vyakyAsyamah where the real word is Siksha with a short 'i'. SrI sUktam : hiraNya prAkAram where prakAra is the real word.

RSR
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Re: Prosody in CM Songs

Post by RSR »

श्री महा गण पतिः-अवतु मां
सिद्धि विनायको मातङ्ग मुख
(सिद्धि विनायको मातङ्ग मुखः)

अनुपल्लवि
काम जनक विधि-इन्द्र सन्नुत -
कमल-आलय तट निवासो
कोमळ-तर पल्लव पद कर -
गुरु गुह-अग्रजः शिव-आत्मजः

-----------------------------------
@shankarank
Yes. You are right. I think, there are rare such . or the vocalists avoid that ending (rightly )
Thank you for the erudite thread. .cited in p-26..particularly the teaching of Sage of Kaanchi about the difference between vedic language and Sanskrit.
....I would further differentiate that sanskrit as used in MUSIC COMPOSITIONS of The Trinity , is slightly different from BOTH vedic and literary sanskrit.

and vocalists are right in singing accordingly.
----
Jayadeva 's lyrics only have come down to us. Not his music notations or rendering tradition. He lived in 1300 AD and though vocalists have tuned his compositions and sung them, he cannot be considered a CM composer .

--
The same may be the case with NaaraayaNa theertha of KrushNa leela tharangini.
I think, we are in the same wavelenth, in this matter.
The same applies to annamaacharya comppositins also.
It is Dasaa lineage that is considered as the starting point of CM proper. 1400 AD

Emphasis is on the oral tradition of CM and not on textual tradition .
The world of vocalists is different from that of lyricists, and poets.
Any 'music' oral tradition prior to 1500 AD , is better considered as the creation of re-tuners.
-

thenpaanan
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Re: Prosody in CM Songs

Post by thenpaanan »

shankarank wrote: 04 Sep 2022, 04:43 dvitiyAkshara prAsa or edukai is only in Southern languages - referencing Dr N. Ramanathan's article. Samskritam compositions got it later on during the interaction with South.

kALidAsa has a lone opening Sloka vAgarthAviva - jagatafpitarau that seem to have it. But mostly not used.
Indeed. This rhyming scheme in Sanskrit verse seems unique to Carnatic music compositions, you don't see it even among the southern Sanskrit poets outside this genre in my limited knowledge.

I was looking for that super-elusive bird -- dvitiyAkshara prAsa used in Northern Indian language other than Sanskrit. I was hoping that some composition of Swati Tirunal's in Hindi/BrajbhASA might have it but I have not found such an example. In fact all the compositions of Swati Tirunal in Hindi that I have come across don't use it except for a seemingly accidental one --"vishwEshvara darashana kara" where the pallavi and anupallavi start with the same word but the charanams are all different.

-T

shankarank
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Re: Prosody in CM Songs

Post by shankarank »

A comprehensive reference in the online tamizh dictionary. I paste the contents in here, so even if the website link goes away, we have it:

https://agarathi.com/word/%e0%ae%8e%e0% ... 5%e0%af%88

Miron Winslow - A Comprehensive Tamil and English Dictionary

எதுகை

etukai

s. Initial rhyme, commonly occurring in the second letter of every line in the stanza. (See தொடை.) 2. [vul.] (fig.) Agreement, union, consonance, similarity, பொருத்தம். (p.)

தலையாகெதுகை, (talaiyAketukai) s. In rhyme, similarity of the first class in which all the letters except the initial of the first foot in each line through the stanza are the same--as
சொற்போர்புரிவர்நான்மறை யாறங்கமுணர்ந்ததொழுகுலத்தோர்,
விற்போர்புரிவர் நெடியசிலையிராமனனையவிறல்வேந்தர்,
பொற்போர் புரிவர் பிறர்பொருளுந்தம்போற் பேணிப்புரிவணிகர்,
நெற்போர்புரிவரந்நகரில்வேளாண்குலத்து நெறியி னரே.

talai : (head)

இடையாகெதுகை, (iDaiyAketukai)s. Consonance of a medial kind in which the second letter only ryhmes--as அகரமுதலவெழுத் தெல்லாமாதி,
பகவன்முதற்றேயுலகு.

iDAi ( middle)

கடையாகெதுகை, (kaDaiyAketukai) s. Consonance of an inferior order including every kind except the two given above.
kaDai (end)

ஆசெதுகை, (Asetukai) s. An exception to the general rule of எதுகை; i. e. when the second letter of the first line is ய, ர, ல, or ழ, it may be omitted in the following lines when necessary.

வழியெதுகை, (vazhiyetukai) s. The agreement of the second and third letters in the first, second, and sometimes the third feet in every line through the stanza.

நெடிலெதுகை, (neDiletukai) s. The rhyming of the long consonants in a poem--as ஆவாவென்றேயஞ்சினராழ்ந்தாரொருசாரார்,
கூகூ வென்றேகூவிளிகொண்டாரொருசாரார்,
மாமாவென் றேமாய்ந்தனர்நீந்தாரொருசாரார்,
ஏகீர்நாகீரென்செய் துமென்றாரொருசாரார்.

இனவெதுகை, (inavetukai) s. The rhyming of the same class of consonants in a poem. It consists of three kinds: 1. வல்லின வெதுகை, (vallinavetukai) the consonance which occurs when the second letter of each line of a stanza is any one of the வல்லினம் consonants, உ-ம்.
தக்கார்தகவிலரென்பதவரவ
ரெச்சத்தாற்காணப்படும்.
2. மெல்லினவெதுகை (mellinavetukai), the consonance which occurs when the second letter of each line of a stanza is any one of the மெல்லினம் consonants, உ-ம்.
அன்பீனுமார்வமுடைமையதுவீனு
நண்பென் னுநாடாச்சிறப்பு.
3. இடையினவெதுகை, (iDaiyinavetukai)the consonance which occurs when the se cond letter of each line of a stanza is any one of the இடையினம் consonants, உ-ம்.
எல்லா விளக்கும் விளக்கல்ல சான்றோர்க்குப்
பொய்யாவிளக்கேவிளக்கு.

nAdopAsaka
Posts: 878
Joined: 20 Jul 2020, 17:05

Re: Prosody in CM Songs

Post by nAdopAsaka »

Regarding Hindi etc compositions of the mahArAja.. (per post # 28)

"bansivAlE" suggests a serious effort by the mahArAja , who was obviously familiar with such rules, (nicely summarized in post # 29) to make ends meet for the second syllable.

The way the words are articulated also plays a role (as has been noted here earlier) and the Hindi etc. dialect allows for lot of room. I parse accordingly.

In this case , the ending syllable is also built in for almost all the lines, and there is an attempt of sorts for intermediate matching too.

----------------------
bans I vAlE nE man mOha

bOl I bOlE mIth i lAgE dar i dar umang karAvE

ba I Nan bAjE tAn gAvE nis i din gOpiyAn rijhAvE

sa I varO rang mOhanI ang sum I ran tan ki bhulAvE

kAL I ndI kE tIr ThADhE mOhan bAnsuri bajAvE

pad I manAbha prabhu dInabandhu aur nar caran manAvE
----------------------------------

sai-varo is from the "sAy-an kAl" = shade /evening where the deity is tanned/dusky
similarly "bainan" is the dialect word for the "been" , the instrument

This composition is naturally in rAga mOhana, for the flute-playing deity and the word appears in the first line too (but is often sung in other rAgas )

nAdopAsaka
Posts: 878
Joined: 20 Jul 2020, 17:05

Re: Prosody in CM Songs

Post by nAdopAsaka »

Following post # 30, the mahArAjas yamunA kalyAni “Aj-u AyE SyAma mOhan” is also of note.

Depicting the rAsa lilA of the lord, in vrndAvana on the yamunA , this natural yamunA kalyAni kriti is often sung in other rAgas (by mostly disreputable miscreants but also a few supposedly reputable ones).

I have heard some renditions without the “kO” at the end of first line, but its presence can be seen to be symmetric with the very last line as well as within the pallavi and the first Carana.

The song develops the “u” sound as the second syllable.

The mahArAja quite deliberately initiates this “u” sound with the Aj-u usage ( Aj-u itself is not typical of Hindi for "Aj = today” , but perhaps of the Braj dialect ) and this continues with the other lines.

I show in red below. All the initial words can be sounded as a single syllable.

-----------------------
Aj u-AyE SyAma mO han , rAs u-maN Da la khEl nE kO

bAns u-ri ki dhunak u lAgE tAn tanan natOn tanO, bAjE tAl mrdang ki dhun dhr kuT takiTe tak dhrk uT tathO

nAC u-rahi gOri tAn u tiyA thait thai tai takaritO, bAjE pAyal chunchun nana jhanan tatana tOm

tAn u-gAvEn takadhIm tAdi thirkaT u takatOm tathOm dhintakiT, takadhina kiTataka dhintakiTa taka taka tathOm

pad u-manAbha tumhAr lIlA kah u mai sAvarO, tAp sankaT SaraNe aO hamAri tum harO
---------------------------

In the bansIvAlE mOhana of post # 30 the word “padi-manAbha” is not a meaningless construct. “padi” implies comfort and the whole word means "the light (Abha) that offers the mind (mana) comfort", which is also the context of the ending line “tApa sankata Sarana”.

For example “A-padi sa-padi” appears in the mahArAjas “japat japat hari nAma” tOdi kriti. (A-patti is often used to refer to calamity or disaster).

Do the great Hindu tone-poets dance to the beat of their own drums ? Of course.

But the observed adherence to standardized meter/Canda etc. or other prosodic rules , is an attribute with ancient roots. It is not a shackle but a sign of discipline.

RSR
Posts: 3427
Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: Prosody in CM Songs

Post by RSR »

All Thamizh poems have a very natural rhyming in the beginning word of the lines.
.
We find that in the earliest Thamizh music compositions like those of
Thamizh moovar and Gopaala krushna Bharathy .
(different from re-tuned compositions of early poets.)
-
Here is a fine example . How many kruthis in either Sanskrit or other South Indian languages of the Trinity and pre-TRINITY have such felicity? Very very few.
-------
காலைத் தூக்கி நின்று ஆடும் தெய்வமே!

என்னைக்கை தூக்கி ஆள் தெய்வமே!
A music composition by Maarimutthaa pillai
-.......
செங் கையில் மான் தூக்கி
.. சிவந்த மழுவும் தூக்கி
அங்கத்தில் ஒரு பெண்ணை
.. அனுதினமும் தூக்கி
கங்கையை , திங்களை
கதித்த சடைமேல் தூக்கி
இங்கும் அங்குமாய் தேடி
இருவர் கண்டறியாத
--
காலைத் தூக்கி நின்று ஆடும் தெய்வமே!

....

நந்தி மத்தளம் ,தூக்க
நாரதர் யாழ் தூக்க .
' தோம் தோம்' என்றயன் தாளம்
சுருதியோடு தூக்க
சிந்தை மகிழ்ந்து வானோர்
சென்னிமேல் கரம் கூப்ப
முந்தும் வலியுடைய முயலகன்
உன்னைத் தூக்க,
---
காலைத் தூக்கி நின்று ஆடும் தெய்வமே!
என்னைக்கை தூக்கி ஆள் தெய்வமே!

----------------------------------
Listen in the sweet voice of Smt.MS --vintage 78 rpm - around 1946
http://youtube.com/watch?v=3Zt9WJYdi3k
yadhukula kaambodhi raagam.


-
chengaiyil
.. mAn thookki chivanda mazhuvai thookki
angattil
.. oru peNNai anudinamum thookki
gangaiyai
.. thingaLai kadhitta chaDaimEl thookki
ingum
angumAi thEDi iruvar kaNDariyAdha
---
Nandhi
matthaLam thookka
Naaradhar yaazh meetta
'thotthom ' endrayan thaaLam
suruthiyodu thookka
chinthai
makizhnthu vaanoar
chennimael kai kooppa
minnum pukazh saer thillai
ponnambalatthil aadum
---------
The lyrics given in
https://www.karnatik.com/c1228.shtml
have left out the second stanza.
Lakshman_ji is requested to arrange for the correction.

nAdopAsaka
Posts: 878
Joined: 20 Jul 2020, 17:05

Re: Prosody in CM Songs

Post by nAdopAsaka »

Following post # 31 and # 30, the mahArAjas composition in vrndAvana sAranga “Cal i yE kunjan mO” is also of note.

The desperate gOpi wants the lord to herself, she threatens him with her own flood of tears to rival the yamunA river , she is holding him tight, knowing he is wayward ! and she reminds him of the song of the cuckoo, the love-bird.

The deep well of eternal longing does not need many words to express itself.

200 years before the twitter verse, the mahArAja captures the essence of the majestic rAs lilA in about 20 words.

The mahArAja ALSO matches the 2nd, the 3rd plus the last 2 syllables
(it will be interesting to see if this type of pattern is observed in other works)

Cal i yE kunjan mO tum ham mil SyAm hari
dEkh i yE jamunA rE bahi sundar ati nIr-bhari
COd i yE kaisE mOkun mai to tErO hAth dhari
sun i yE kOyal kE bOl piyA kyA kaharI

"nir bahAna" is classic symbol of weeping , linked by the poet to the iconic river.

Some books mistakenly give the second line word as "dEkhO", which is completely out of touch with the formality of ALL the other first words . The correct word is "dEkhiyE", which also satisfies the prosody. (Notice that the mahArAja does NOT use the highly informal CalO, COdO or sunO for the other lines).The lord is worthy of such respect, in words and in actions.

Since it a depiction of the rAsa lila of the vrndAvana lord, the rAga is properly vrndAvana sAranga.

Why ?

Because the keyword is “kunja” which implies garden or forest/garden etc. = vana of vrndAvana.

Of course this does not stop miscreants from singing this in other rAgas.

thenpaanan
Posts: 635
Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 19:45

Re: Prosody in CM Songs

Post by thenpaanan »

Re post #29, we have the rules about consonant matching at the right place. But elsewhere in this forum I also read that the length of the preceding vowel has to the same (i.e. long or short). We see that Tyagaraja meticulously follows this other rule as well. Is this vowel rule also part of the same rhyming ruleset in Tamizh or does that come from some other source?

-T

nAdopAsaka
Posts: 878
Joined: 20 Jul 2020, 17:05

Re: Prosody in CM Songs

Post by nAdopAsaka »

The kAlidAsa stanza (noted in a post above) on the inseparability of the divine parents finds its way into the Dikshitar bauli kriti "Sri pArvati paramESwarau” discussed in post # 740 of the Mutthuswamy Dikshitar thread. This kriti exhibits the second syllable repetition in the Carana. It seems quite possible that the pattern also may have been inherited from kAlidAsa.

Reference to kAlidAsa permits the consideration also of the works of the Adi Sankara.

The Adi Sankaras impact and influence on the Dikshitar through the Sri-vidyA is of course enormous, in terms of ideas, words and even rAga choices. (e.g. the lalitA sahasranAma and the SoundaryaLahari ). My posts on the Mutthuswamy Dikshitar thread give several examples, including for rAgas of the navAvaranas which are the shining emblem of the Sri-vidyA pujA.

For e.g. in the abhayAmbA navAvarana , the first Cakra kriti in "kEdAragaula" and the 9th Cakra kriti in CAmaram are 2 exceptional examples linked to the SoundaryaLahari (post # 567 of the Mutthuswamy Dikshitar thread gives the details)

Another example specific to kAnCi can also be given.

In his kAmAkSi stOtra the Adi Sankara describes the “cage of kAnCi

“kAnCi pattannA panjara Antara Sukim kArunya kallOlinim”

This idea finds its way a 1000 years later into both the Dikshitars bilahari kAmAkSi varalakSmi (with its cave=bila) and also the “rAga-panjaram” kriti of the tyAgarAja (e.g. post # 517 of the tyAgarAja thread)

But the reason to consider the Adi Sankara here is also because of poetic patterns he exhibits in some of his stOtras.

For example the first stanza of the Adi Sankaras ganapati bhujanga stOtra (which indicates a nritta or dancing ganapati) shows the second syllable repetition.

ran at kSudra ghantA ninAdAbhirAmaṃ
Cal at tAndavOddandavat padmatAlam
las at tundilAngO parivyAlahAraṃ
gan Ad hiSam iSAna sUnuṃ tam IḍE

Post # 532 on the tyAgarAja thread shows how the "Sri ganapatini" kriti carries a strong dance flavor and of course follows the akSara patterns (Sri gana, vAgadi, panasa, ghanata, anaya, vinaya etc)

The Adi Sankaras kAmAkSi stOtras first and 10th (final) stanzas also have patterns.

On the other hand the SoundaryaLahari or the Adi Sankaras ardhanAriSwara stOtra or kAlidAsas SyAmala dandakam do not appear to show these particular patterns.

Even if these patterns are only sporadic in the Adi Sankara body of work, the possibility of their influence on the Dikshitar or the tyAgarAja or others (like SyAmA SAStri through his own Sri vidyA upAsana) cannot be overlooked.

RSR
Posts: 3427
Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: Prosody in CM Songs

Post by RSR »

This topic is rather difficult. We are not discussiong prosody in general in literary poems in any language like Thamizh or other languages based on Sanskrit . We should select only such lyrics which are either
set to tune by the original lyrics-composers or retuned by others. As such , prosody does not deal with theme at all, philosophical or other
such. Such thematic excellence and literary graces in metaphors and like are bonus. (This is a point, consistently held by
@shankarank .....if I follow him correctly...he would even assert that prosody itself is /music/ ? ---untenable though it is.
as that would lead to mixing up literature with music , Music need not always have lyrics, Where is prosody and philosophy in an instrumental rendition..?
-
Nonetheless, CM always gives equal importance to lyrics and that is where prosody comes in CM.
.Thamizh poetry excels in natural rhyming. Barathy though not trained in CM, had a natural music sensitivity and seems to have sung many of his poetic creations , already set to a raaga of his choice. though, not all the compositions have been rendered in the melody suggested by him , by musicians .
So, discussing prosody in CM, should be strictly confined to the musical compositions in CM from Daasa saahithyams...onwards.
-
Re-tuned songs can be considered here as we are dealing with prosody / set to music/. and in circulation. Almost all the Barathy poems set to music by others, are very rich in the typical and unique prosody, which we do not find in any other language so overwhelmingly.
--
/ பொழுது /புலர்ந்தது; யாம்செய்த தவத்தால்,
புன்மை யிருட்கணம் போயின யாவும்;
/எழுபசும்/ பொற்சுடர் எங்கணும் பரவி
/எழுந்து /விளங்கியது அறிவெனும் இரவி;
/தொழுதுனை /வாழ்த்தி வணங்குதற்கு இங்குஉன்
தொண்டர்பல் லாயிரர் சூழ்ந்துநிற் கின்றோம்;
/விழிதுயில்/ கின்றனை இன்னும்எம் தாயே!
வியப்பிது காண்!பள்ளி யெழுந்தரு ளாயே!
and more such great lines
sung by Smt.M.S available at
https://youtu.be/pCZbLFpTZJI
-------------------------------------
The poem's lines have been given in comments setion
-----------------------------

shankarank
Posts: 4042
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Prosody in CM Songs

Post by shankarank »

thenpaanan wrote: 25 Sep 2022, 07:36 Re post #29, we have the rules about consonant matching at the right place. But elsewhere in this forum I also read that the length of the preceding vowel has to the same (i.e. long or short). We see that Tyagaraja meticulously follows this other rule as well. Is this vowel rule also part of the same rhyming ruleset in Tamizh or does that come from some other source?

-T
As you can see in that post, even the literary grammar mentions a long form prosody where letters don't rhyme, just the long syllable does. The particular importance to the second letter seems to be, to have the immediate sound effect at the same time have the concordant rhythmic effect as well. It takes two syllables to form even a rudimentary rhythmic pattern or yati. So it makes perfect sense to have the syllabic length matched as well.
RSR wrote: 26 Sep 2022, 08:34 Where is prosody and philosophy in an instrumental rendition..?
Somehow instrumental renditions here in CM, have been made to tow the flow of compositions. It is because the compositions have all these rhythmic patterns in them, so that has stuck.

I recently heard a mallari, called deepa mallari sung in a Bhajan event by Udayalur Sri Kalayanarama Bhagavathar. Though that is a reduced version of the original instrumental, just having caturaSram and some sprinkling of triSram, it does bring the athIta effect into play. So instrumental music is getting leveraged into vocal as well.

MSS's charming navarasakannada (ninnuvina) in common wealth auditorium sounds very much like an instrumental influence in voice rendering technique , sourced from nagasvaram renditions.

Now if you want scientific inquiry ;) into the matter regarding language and music that is out there as well :
http://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10. ... 00123/full

RSR
Posts: 3427
Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: Prosody in CM Songs

Post by RSR »

p-37
@shankarank
Somehow instrumental renditions here in CM, have been made to tow the flow of compositions
'tow the flow '-loved that roll.
Yes.
.Given the same composition, an instrumentalist, can reach certain heights and create a few tornados, that the poor vocalist can sing only in his mind and never in his throat..
.
but that is still a rendition and not prosody.
.
For all that advantage, only a vocalist can bring out the grandeur of the prosody - words and music, while an instrumentalist can only bring out the music.
-
Now to the 'scientific' 'frontier' paper cited in post.
The learned scientist avers that words and music go to different sides of our brain. Perfectly probable.
.
And there are brains and brains...not at all identical either in size or in sensitiveness.
It would be that the frontier person will be lost in the world of CM.
.
As WCM, is mostly instruments and notations-based, prosody questions pose no problems.
-
How would a scientist analyze the 'Pieta'?
. Kohinoor is just carbon to a scientist.
.Thankfully, we see not 'x-ray' images all around us.
Maayaa it might be, but without maayaa' life would be a sci-fi horror .
All literature and arts , are based on such illusions. No ?
Tempted to quote the Bard of Avon.
O, sir, I will not be so hard-hearted! I will give
out divers schedules of my beauty. It shall be
inventoried and every particle and utensil labeled
to my will: as,
item, two lips indifferent red;
item,two gray eyes with lids to them;
item, one neck, one chin, and so forth.
Were you sent hither to praise
me?
------------------
https://shakespeare.folger.edu/shakespe ... tire-play/
page-245
-----------------
pardon the banter - as our wont.

shankarank
Posts: 4042
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Prosody in CM Songs

Post by shankarank »

[::cough::] diamond ayirangaalattu kari (thousand year charcoal) enDru sonna kavinjar inda forum tanilE irukkirAr (so said a poet in this forum).

bharatiyO paditta nal vayiram enbAn!

kavinjargal palavidam ( poets are wayward!). Good I did not read literature. Works in bhAratiYa Bhashas gave me good sound structure to relish them!

shankarank
Posts: 4042
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Prosody in CM Songs

Post by shankarank »

RSR wrote: 28 Sep 2022, 12:06 How would a scientist analyze the 'Pieta'?
. Kohinoor is just carbon to a scientist.
You have no clue! Scientific community is in awe and wonder about the physical world they study, not any less than poets, in fact more so and more so deeply!

RSR
Posts: 3427
Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: Prosody in CM Songs

Post by RSR »

kavinjargal palavidam ( poets are wayward!).
That surely is wrong translation.
It should be ' There are different kinds of poets. \
'wayward' has a meaning unrelated to what is being meant to be conveyed.
"following one's own capricious, wanton, or depraved inclinations :"
------------------------------------------------------------
Can a software program 'create' the following stanza of Barathy as sung by Smt.MS?
Vellai malar
misai ,vaedhak karupporuLaaka, viLngiduvaay
theLLu kalaith thamizh vaaNi - Ninakkoru viNNappam seythiduvaen
eLLatthanai pozhuthum ,pyanindri iraathenthan Naavinile
veLLamenap pozhivaay , sakthi om sakthi om sakthi om
-
வெள்ளை மலர் மிசை வேதக்
கருப்பொருளாக விளங்கிடுவாய்
தெள்ளு தமிழ்க் கலைவாணி நினக்கொரு
விண்ணப்பம் செய்திடுவேன்!
எள்ளத்தனைப் பொழுதும் பயனின்றி
இராதெந்தன நாவினிலே
வெள்ளமெனப் பொழிவாய்
சக்தி ஓம், சக்தி ஓம், சக்தி ஓம்!
https://sites.google.com/site/homage2ms ... -neethiyum

shankarank
Posts: 4042
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Prosody in CM Songs

Post by shankarank »

That is indeed a profound question, put to Alan Turing who said that is an unfair question to ask of a computer. Noam Chomsky on his recent musings on consciousness dubs such questions as invalid questions, because there is no answer to these and "No" is also not an answer.

That is a non-sequitur however, in the context of Scientists being in awe of nature. If Bharathy himself were alive, he would write poems on that, reading the popular musings of scientists.

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