In the quest for a perfect recording, a note of falsehood

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Nick H
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Re: In the quest for a perfect recording, a note of falsehood

Post by Nick H »

It must be almost a hundred years too late to start complaining about the "new" technology of "punching" in sections of music over incorrect recording, or editing a section of one performance into another. One thing has changed, perhaps: the ease with which this can be done now, with waveforms on a screen giving exact pictorial cues.

Not that I underestimate the sound engineer's skill. I should probably have said easier. It used to be done by physically cutting and splicing pieces of tape. A truly awesome skill!

But Autotune and Melodyne have, no doubt, taken things to an entirely different level. Everything can be used or misused. @uday_shankar is our special correspondent on this topic.

The misuse of "live" has been bothering me for decades, over various musical genres. "Recorded Live In The Studio!" Sure: It wouldn't have worked well if they'd been dead in the studio! :roll: :evil:

Anyway, at least we do not have to worry about such deep technological interference with our YouTubed presentations from Ragasudha Hall, Arkay, etc. :D

thenpaanan
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Re: In the quest for a perfect recording, a note of falsehood

Post by thenpaanan »

Nick H wrote: 16 Jan 2022, 15:47 It must be almost a hundred years too late to start complaining about the "new" technology of "punching" in sections of music over incorrect recording, or editing a section of one performance into another. One thing has changed, perhaps: the ease with which this can be done now, with waveforms on a screen giving exact pictorial cues.

Not that I underestimate the sound engineer's skill. I should probably have said easier. It used to be done by physically cutting and splicing pieces of tape. A truly awesome skill!

But Autotune and Melodyne have, no doubt, taken things to an entirely different level. Everything can be used or misused. @uday_shankar is our special correspondent on this topic.

The misuse of "live" has been bothering me for decades, over various musical genres. "Recorded Live In The Studio!" Sure: It wouldn't have worked well if they'd been dead in the studio! :roll: :evil:

Anyway, at least we do not have to worry about such deep technological interference with our YouTubed presentations from Ragasudha Hall, Arkay, etc. :D
But isn't this the march of progress? There were people who apparently complained that with the advent of recorded music (and we are talking about the 3.5 minute per side gramophones) the quality of music will plummet. Then came the microphone (as poor as they were in the 40s) and then the AIR studio broadcasts, the electronic tambura etc etc. There are even people who were/are completely against notating the music.

I think it is pointless to lament this. We as musicians have to march along, otherwise we will be left behind on the side of the road. TMK is pointing out all the things that a thinking musician should ponder on. However the larger question is how to make best use of the technology?

You can tell the difference in other genres already. Artists in popular genres (western and Indian) who have been auto-tuned in the studio are disasters in live shows. The same thing can happen with Carnatic as well. I have wondered whether the same is also true in Western classical. In WCM recitals the audience's participation via applause or shouts of appreciation are almost studio-like already (I see even encores being added to studio-recorded recitals). So what differences do we see over there?

It is essential for musicians and their listeners to ponder this question but it is _critical_ for musicians heed TMK's warning at the end -- a casual attitude. We already see that effects of overuse of mic's in voice development in young musicians. The same might happen to the content of the music which would be far more profound.

-T

Nick H
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Re: In the quest for a perfect recording, a note of falsehood

Post by Nick H »

thenpaanan wrote: 16 Jan 2022, 21:36 But isn't this the march of progress?
It is the march of technology. It is the march of possibility... And nothing should be thrown away. It should be used wisely. And musicians should be sure to know what the technical people are doing to them and their music.

thenpaanan
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Re: In the quest for a perfect recording, a note of falsehood

Post by thenpaanan »

Nick H wrote: 17 Jan 2022, 03:40
thenpaanan wrote: 16 Jan 2022, 21:36 But isn't this the march of progress?
It is the march of technology. It is the march of possibility... And nothing should be thrown away. It should be used wisely. And musicians should be sure to know what the technical people are doing to them and their music.
It is more than just technological change. In music, it is not just what the musician does but also what the audience accepts and applauds. Mere technological change does not ensure that the new music whatever it is will be accepted. I dislike the whistling noise that comes with some auto-tuned songs but I have to also admit that there might be songs I currently like and enjoy that, unbeknownst to me, have been put through the auto-tuner. One day auto-tuned albums in ICM may become widespread (depending on how good the technology gets and how quickly), and after that might come a day when audiences will prefer auto-tuned music to the "traditional". To all the naysayers, all I say is that our hallowed Carnatic concert format that we fight religious wars over, is barely a hundred years old. That too was propelled by technological and social change. This process of change has considerably sped up, that's all.

I wonder about the day when just like speech synthesizers we have today that talk, there will be programs that sing. Could those programs be made capable of singing Carnatic, and will there be a day when listeners would prefer programs singing to human vocalists?

-T

thenpaanan
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Re: In the quest for a perfect recording, a note of falsehood

Post by thenpaanan »

Nick H wrote: 17 Jan 2022, 03:40
thenpaanan wrote: 16 Jan 2022, 21:36 But isn't this the march of progress?
It is the march of technology. It is the march of possibility... And nothing should be thrown away. It should be used wisely. And musicians should be sure to know what the technical people are doing to them and their music.
How does this discussion relate to the analogous discussion in another thread here relating to technological inputs to the veena. viewtopic.php?t=10793

Why should voice be an exception when it comes to technological assists?



-T

SrinathK
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Re: In the quest for a perfect recording, a note of falsehood

Post by SrinathK »

Technological assist has always been around, but the level that it is going to now is ridiculous. There is far more effort going into the editing itself than the actual concert. Virtually everyone, every kid, is singing with the shruti shuddam of an MS Subbulakshmi apparently. And the live concerts aren't exactly live either.

We have entered the new age of Carnatic concert movie making. And the one problem here is musicians may now spend more time hiding the flaws by software rather than actually fixing them and polishing their skills.

The biggest concerns to musicians is that this technology may start to level the playing field between the merely average and the great. People can get away with stuff you can't in a real live performance.

It's inevitable though, this March of tech. Questions of the actual integrity of the performance will arise of course. But even now the actual live performance still remains the true test of the musician. You cannot get away hiding behind these tricks in a live concert, for now.

Maybe in the future AI will be fixing errors in real time and even further down the road, AI will be doing the performance itself, who knows.

We have to appreciate the pitch perfection of many musicians in those years when this tech wasn't available and you had to work hard to perfect every note and diction and what you heard wasn't the product of a clever illusion.

Nick H
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Re: In the quest for a perfect recording, a note of falsehood

Post by Nick H »

SrinathK wrote: 17 Jan 2022, 09:41The biggest concerns to musicians is that this technology may start to level the playing field between the merely average and the great.
I am not sure about that (but admit the possibility). It takes so much more than mere exact tuning to be a great musician and/or a great performer. Some might go so far as to say that it isn't even necessary!

shankarank
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Re: In the quest for a perfect recording, a note of falsehood

Post by shankarank »

Ain't recorded music already worthless?

https://stratechery.com/2019/aws-mongod ... en-source/

With all browser protections preventing download , one can record with Audacity loopback line in for Audio and Windows 10 XBox capture for Video ( I couldn;t figure out Audio yet on my machine).

This covid time support of streamed music is empathy - to support fledgling art.

So are we saying there ain't the power center of Sastri halls and RR Sabha and the accompanying whisper campaigns that decided who is a vidvan any more? :( :P

Just 'coz something is put out, and consumed - ain't going to determine who is a good musician!

This concert stream with umpteen edits and tune fixes is still better than the cassette boom time products, where Papanasam Sivan became a theme and a vINa and Mridangam started each "song" - and it sounded like one of those "Bhathi pADalgal" or devotional music productions!

Also when do people realize that singing Trinity and post trinity compositions with svarams , neravals is NOT a thematic concert , rather a "Proaper" ARI paddhati kutcheri!! Whether it has a kutcheri effect or not is a different matter!

thenpaanan
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Re: In the quest for a perfect recording, a note of falsehood

Post by thenpaanan »

Nick H wrote: 17 Jan 2022, 17:17
SrinathK wrote: 17 Jan 2022, 09:41The biggest concerns to musicians is that this technology may start to level the playing field between the merely average and the great.
I am not sure about that (but admit the possibility). It takes so much more than mere exact tuning to be a great musician and/or a great performer. Some might go so far as to say that it isn't even necessary!
It is also true that those musicians will find other things to be great at. When sound amplification got perfected, singers no longer needed to learn the art of voice projection to that extent. The renowned musician-critic K. S. Kalidas mentioned in one of his lec-dems that in the days before amplification the subtleties and nuances of the music were not so prevalent in concert performances simply because they could not be heard by the audience.

In another lecdem vidwan Sriram Parasuram opined that Veena Dhanammal's music was "simple" compared to today's concert music. Today our music performances are replete with all kinds of micro-tweaks, all of them very much in tune and within the paradigm, just more dense in ideas. What makes a Sanjay or a Sikkil stand out is that they sing very complex alapanas and swaras and present a new idea in practically every concert. If you look at the huge database of recordings we have of yesteryear vidwans, you will find that most old-time vidwans did not change their output in every concert as much as modern vidwans do.

All this has been enabled by technology -- both better performance and recording technology that enables them to showcase their art, and better technology to listen to thousands of hours of recordings that were not available to previous generations.

Coming to the emerging generation of vidwans I am completely astounded at their knowledge and ability at such a young age. They seem to be able to do musical things that took previous generations decades to achieve. That has also been made possible because of technology to some extent -- learning online, ability to travel easily, better teaching techniques that use the tech, etc.

Something along these lines will happen in the future: vidwans of the future will be astounding in their own way, we just cannot tell what that will be.

-T

msakella
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Re: In the quest for a perfect recording, a note of falsehood

Post by msakella »

Excellent and critical analysis. msakella

msakella
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Re: In the quest for a perfect recording, a note of falsehood

Post by msakella »

In this context I hope this may not be out of place to mention the following:

All our Sangitakalanidhis or Padmashrees or the music lovers have always treated the Vocal music very great and encouraged to preserve the audio-recordings of as many artists of vocal as they can. Ok, very nice of this act and we all heartily appreciate that. But, at the same time, most unfortunately, all the instrumentalists feel very bad as these great people or even these giants themselves did not think that it is most essential to preserve the videos focusing upon the various fingering techniques also. Thus, we already have lost the great finger-techniques of Violin giants MSG, LGJ and MC taken at their peak time. msakella

eesha
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Re: In the quest for a perfect recording, a note of falsehood

Post by eesha »

msakella wrote: 20 Jan 2022, 15:08 In this context I hope this may not be out of place to mention the following:

All our Sangitakalanidhis or Padmashrees or the music lovers have always treated the Vocal music very great and encouraged to preserve the audio-recordings of as many artists of vocal as they can. Ok, very nice of this act and we all heartily appreciate that. But, at the same time, most unfortunately, all the instrumentalists feel very bad as these great people or even these giants themselves did not think that it is most essential to preserve the videos focusing upon the various fingering techniques also. Thus, we already have lost the great finger-techniques of Violin giants MSG, LGJ and MC taken at their peak time. msakella
As for the techniques, their disciples/sons/daughtesr already know those techniques. Implementing those techniques to the level of the masters is a different ball game

msakella
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Re: In the quest for a perfect recording, a note of falsehood

Post by msakella »

I am one of the successful followers of MSG sir since 1955 and I have been following some of the LGJ sir’s techniques also successfully and I initiate some of my students play both of them basing upon some proportions. Many are following many of the finger techniques of LGJ sir which are followable but I sincerely feel very few are following the finger-techniques of MSG sir as no Videos particularly focusing upon his very rare finger techniques are available or even accessible even to see them and follow. For example, how many of the disciples/sons/daughters of MSG sir are very regularly practicing playing the Varnas on the 4th string (single string) making the Shuddha-madhyama as Shadja and are able to play them in concerts regularly? msakella

thenpaanan
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Re: In the quest for a perfect recording, a note of falsehood

Post by thenpaanan »

msakella wrote: 20 Jan 2022, 15:08 In this context I hope this may not be out of place to mention the following:

All our Sangitakalanidhis or Padmashrees or the music lovers have always treated the Vocal music very great and encouraged to preserve the audio-recordings of as many artists of vocal as they can. Ok, very nice of this act and we all heartily appreciate that. But, at the same time, most unfortunately, all the instrumentalists feel very bad as these great people or even these giants themselves did not think that it is most essential to preserve the videos focusing upon the various fingering techniques also. Thus, we already have lost the great finger-techniques of Violin giants MSG, LGJ and MC taken at their peak time. msakella
Another excellent point.

A related topic raised in a different thread many years ago -- the possibility of something in Carnatic music that is not voice-centered.

In Hindustani music we have bandishes that are specific to sitar, which have no words whatsoever, just wordless music -- and these are the mainstay of sitar concerts today. The only analogous thing I can think of in the Carnatic world is the mallari played on the Nadaswaram.

This, I think, goes hand in hand with the lack of attention to the details of instruments or instrument-playing. For example, even when talking about the "veenai bANi" or 'nAdaswaram bANi" we are still paying more attention to the voice emulating those techniques rather than how to embellish and expand those bANis themselves. The instrumental concerts are, in effect, evoking the audience's memories of sung versions of those compositions rather than standing on their own.

I feel that we will only pay the deserved attention to details (such as fingering techniques) when there are compositions designed for the instrument and not for the voice. The single-string varnam playing that Sarma garu is talking about works as an instrumental showcase only because the words in a varnam do not matter at all.

-T

msakella
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Re: In the quest for a perfect recording, a note of falsehood

Post by msakella »

Being mainly a Violinist and a critical teacher of Violin I am always bothered in which way I can very efficiently initiate a violinist-kid to shape him/her as an able accompanist and reliable teacher with minimum dependency upon the teacher. Though not from the beginning of my teaching life but from 2001, five years after my retirement in 1996, I have been able to do this efficiently and successfully in my ‘time-bound and result-oriented system’ I have been blessed by the Almighty.

Being an instrument, Violin, lyric cannot be produced and only musical-sound must be produced irrespective of the finger-techniques or Manodharma-sangita. That is why I always think of the ability of my student to improve in different ways. msakella

shankarank
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Re: In the quest for a perfect recording, a note of falsehood

Post by shankarank »

thenpaanan wrote: 21 Jan 2022, 21:38 The single-string varnam playing that Sarma garu is talking about works as an instrumental showcase only because the words in a varnam do not matter at all.
You need to listen to this:

https://youtu.be/IXq0qdMvPEI?t=401

That is from Natarajasundaram Pillai - I think Thirumeignanam.

In the vARNam words are not words , but words are music themselves. sAmi ninnE - sA is dIrgha so even the svarams have to be some how brought forward with the dIRgha in mind.

shankarank
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Re: In the quest for a perfect recording, a note of falsehood

Post by shankarank »

Do all have this rasanai of Her highness Sethu Parvati Bai, Maharani of Thiruvangur(travancore) samasthanam?

https://youtu.be/KVS_2EK1NFM?t=2234

Transcends Sruti. EllArukkum anda level rasanaiya enna?

Film music dishes out pure notes - said TVG in his Sangita Kalanidhi year. So either all get Maharani's rasanai or musicians need to purify the notes :D

P:S One cannot miss the knack of Semmangudi Mama to project his strong points! He puts even accompaniments along with Sruti under the bus to accomplish that :lol:

Sishya paiyan is doing something similar at vEra level!!

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