Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Miscellaneous topics on Carnatic music
uday_shankar
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by uday_shankar »

rajeshnat wrote:The pragmatic answer is CM musicians have to worry about in generally metering out sangathis in layam/talam and they cannot take that much pauses . IN that process at times it sounds bit off as the vocalization tends to do real time micro adjustments. Of course there are many in CM who don0t concentrate and pay that much attention to shruthi.
Indeed, these are profoundly important points. One of the reasons MMI and KVN managed to project their superb shruti shuddam is that they developed a style of singing ragas and neraval that maximized kaarvais.

On the other hand, Smt. MSS must rank as the greatest exponent of shruti shuddham of all time because she sang relatively low kaarvai, brikka oriented bani of SSI and STILL managed to project such perfect shruti shuddham. This is a superhuman feat. Even when singing a superfast mel kaalam of the Bhairavi varnam, she managed to project perfection in every note.

Carnatic shruti shuddham of the MSS, MMI, KVN kind is a very honest affair. There is one (sometime two) soft manual tamburas perfectly tuned and kept in tune by extremely sensitive tambura artists and equally sensitive violinists like VVS kept their instruments in perfect tune. Under these circumstances, any error will be immediately highlighted. No refuge under the general volume of a harmonium or a medley of tambura sounds.

kvchellappa
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by kvchellappa »

These kids seem to sing/play well and remarkably in unison. How about sruti?
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10 ... =2&theater

uday_shankar
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by uday_shankar »

kvchellappa

We're talking about entirely different things. Even a choir will sound in "unison" and so will a symphony orchestra. A bunch of school children will sound very nice and melodious singing together. Rock artists will sound good. All this is does not constitute shruti shuddham.

You can pick the worst violator of shuti shuddham in Carnatic music and he/she will sound very good singing nursery rhymes or even film songs or rock music to the accompaniment of an orchestra or a medley of instruments. Guitars and wind instruments, etc...are routinely mistuned or slightly out of tune with one another but sound melodious enough and adequately harmonious together in an ensemble. Shruti shuddham of the MSS kind and in general Indian Classical Music kind, is an entirely different class of experience from all that. If you don't understand this fundamental fact, it is very hard to explain further. Perhaps you should learn a little Carnatic music from a teacher to appreciate the difference.

kvchellappa
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by kvchellappa »

Sri Udaysankar,
I am thankful for your comments. I did try to learn a long time back, but gave up as I did not have the perseverence required. I can see that the music of MS is divine, but I cannot get into what makes it so. Even the music of many others, though not of the class of MS, sounds good to me; obviously I am insusceptible to the lapses that occur. I go through avidly the very erudite discussion that goes on, but more as an infatuation. I was trying to understand about sruti in the singing of korean singing and i vaguely appreciate the niceties you have mentioned. Thanks for your time.

Nick H
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by Nick H »

Given that I am compromised in both understanding and pitch accuracy, then it might be difficult to answer, but...
Shruti shuddham of the MSS kind and in general Indian Classical Music kind, is an entirely different class of experience from all that.
How about multi-part harmony in Western singing? How about acappella singing? Does not this require a very high degree of pitch accuracy?

Is the difference in the gamaka of Indian music, and that two singers can both be accurate while rendering a sruthi at different pitches?

uday_shankar
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by uday_shankar »

Nick H wrote:How about multi-part harmony in Western singing? How about acappella singing? Does not this require a very high degree of pitch accuracy?
Every one of these requires only a much grosser sense of pitch perfection than Indian Classical Music for a performer to convey an impression of correct melodiousness, and among Indian classical music particularly Carnatic music. I am absolutely at a loss to explain this any further but can demonstrate it very effectively on any one of a handful of instrument of your choice ...why don't you visit me before April 7th ? :)

Nick H
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by Nick H »

Will do.

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Uday: I thought I understood what you were saying but it is possible I am missing a significant aspect of it.

Is it possible to describe the part about "Every one of these requires only a much grosser sense of pitch perfection than Indian Classical Music for a performer to convey an impression of correct melodiousness,"

with a well defined example.

The example I am thinking of is the Sahana phrase ' Pa Ma Ga Ma Ri'. You can pick something else as well if this would not illustrate it.

What I want see is the much sharper idea of pitch perfection you mention is with respect to the right contour taken in that Ma Ga Ma . We all know when it is done right and when it is done wrong. There is probably a few gradations in between.

Secondly, are we also saying that the contour is so self-defining and free-standing that it can exist with out much of a reference to the Aadhara Shadja?

If I am way off, I am sure you will tell me that. Please do!

uday_shankar
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by uday_shankar »

vk,

Very carefully:

1) Conveying the contour of Shahana PMGMR is different from conveying it with a sense of shruti perfection. Thus it is possible for us to listen to a Carnatic vocalist in his ripe old days still being able to convey the contours Shahana with very poor control over shruti.

So the shape is readily conveyed. The question is whether it is conveyed with a sense of "shruti shuddham".

2) NOW...the same old person, could have conveyed a decent sense of melodiousness if he/she attempted to sing "twinkle twinkle" or "are you going to scarborough fairs".

The point is these are two different hierarchies of shruti shuddham expectation

Again, I say this out of intense practice in trying to make music out of an entirely new instrument which does not have frets and which varies in pitch according to blowing. Quite possibly, it is the hardest instrument to play :(.

So, I can play a little Bach snippet with a sense of grossness that will not be noticed by anybody. It could sound quite acceptable under any circumstance.

Next up, thanks to good practice, I can play a Hindustani raga (say Darbari Kanada) with a decent impression.

If I attempted a Carnatic raga never before attempted, I could immediately convey the contour of the rAga but will take enormous practice to get it "shrudi shuddham".

On the other hand, I could start playing a Beatles song in a few minutes and convey an sense of melodiousness that is quite acceptable. This is the point that Nick, for example, seems to not understand...even the worst violator of shruti shuddham in CM would do quite well singing a film song or a Beatles song. These are two different calibrations. To be "tuneful" is NOT yet shruti shuddham !

rshankar
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by rshankar »

uday_shankar wrote:To be "tuneful" is NOT yet shruti shuddham !
I quake before asking this question, and ask at the cost of doing a 'sItaikku rAman cittappA': So what is the purpose of achieving Sruti Suddham? Will it make the persom 'more' tuneful? Will it make the person present contours of known and unknown rAgas better?

Nick H
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by Nick H »

This is the point that Nick, for example, seems to not understand...even the worst violator of shruti shuddham in CM would do quite well singing a film song or a Beatles song. These are two different calibrations. To be "tuneful" is NOT yet shruti shuddham !
You can probably put that down to basic lack of carnatic training. I don't even know if I will "get" your demo, but I'm certainly happy to try, and I don't think it will be your fault if I fail.

arunk
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by arunk »

Shouldnt the evaluator/judge of if something is "sruthi aligned" in a genre be based on experts of that field rather than based on "is it tuneful?" as if to say "it is tuneful to many => it is good enough for that genre". All I know is my daughter's western violin teacher(s) seem to have a very very acute sense of pitch (and what is very good in terms of adherance pitch, to everything else), and its not like they are exceptions.

CM I do think has different dynamics in play w.r.t sruthi-suddham but I am not sure it is a justification for a chest thumping exercise ;-), as this seems to be leaning towards.

Arun

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by vasanthakokilam »

I was not interpreting Uday's statement as a value judgement. I think there is the inherent difficulty in conveying the concept in a comparative manner.

I want to clearly and succinctly define what it is without getting into too much value judgement which can definitely derail the discussion.

With that in mind, let me setup a little framework to talk about this. Modify as necessary.

Set Z = { Straight note execution of PMGMR that is correct with respect to the chosen Adhara Shadja (key) }

Set A = { set of PMGMR contours that sound tuneful and Sahanaish more or less for the Aadhara shadja }

Set B = { A proper subset of A, probably much smaller subset, that is mathematically close to the correct curve for PMGMR for Adhara Shadja }

Set C = { that one curve that is mathematically correct curve for the Adhara Shadja }
(let us assume there is one such thing and it is a singleton, for this purpose) This is defined as the Sruthi Suddham Contour.

Statement 1: The degree of difficulty of Set C is much higher than the degree of difficulty of set Z. Because Z has only 5 frequencies to get right, where as Set C there are a whole lot of frequencies to get right. ( 'right' in the sense of ratios with respect to the chosen Shadjam )


(Corollary )Statement 2: A novice student starts with Set Z and can be very good at it. And so can be every CM artist who does not have perfect shruthi suddham in the CM sense ( In the set C sense )

(Corollary)Statement 3: It is relatively easy to be in Set A, a bit more difficult to be in Set B and very difficult to be in set C ( though not impossible, many artists are indeed in set C ).

(Corollary)Statement 4: This Set C contour has to be learned properly, need to check for correctness by listening and reproduced accurately by practice. And the margin of error is not much. At the prime of an artist's life with full mental alacrity and physical dexterity, it is much easier to be in Set C.

Are these directionally correct statements?

srikant1987
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by srikant1987 »

So what is the purpose of achieving Sruti Suddham? Will it make the persom 'more' tuneful? Will it make the person present contours of known and unknown rAgas better?
No. It will make creating and enjoying the music a more intense experience.

uday_shankar
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by uday_shankar »

vasanthakokilam wrote:I was not interpreting Uday's statement as a value judgement.
Indeed it is not.

Arun does bring up a good point… the level of "standardized" ear and tempo training in WCM is excellent. And the irony is that while Carnatic music really demands an even higher degree of pitch sensitivity, many professional practitioners are not even close.

vk
Your analysis is excellent and directionally what I intended to convey but allow me to rant a bit about the words "mathematical" and "frequency". I know the words are just place holders for the sake of analysis, you said so as much but it’s a good opportunity to rant about it a little because it is possible rasikas take the graphs and numbers very seriously perhaps sometimes without adequate context. Aesthetics and pitch are better concepts. Pitch is a psychological (or psychoacoustic) thing while frequency is a mathematical thing. While they are closely related, there's much more complexity in pitch which only aesthetics can judge. There's a surfeit of mathematics and tools in these discussions and we south Indians love the idea of “mathematical precision”. Perhaps our men get turned on by the physical charms of a woman in a mathematically precise way by checking out the vital statistics measurements on an Excel spreadsheet?! This would certainly miss the other truer, more "vital" elements of charm that come from psychology and interaction that most other cultures cue in on?!

Back to your excellent analytical framework…set Z may be anything with relatively little "contour complexity" if you know what I mean. Then, there are 12 easy and wide slots to cubby hole one's notes. Most musical genres belong in this category. Certainly the width of the slot is considerably narrowed down in genres like professional WCM, due to the excellence in training.

ravi,
I am truly hard pressed to answer that question :). Will think about it. (Actually my post crossed with srikanth's post above. His answer is a good one! )

vainika
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by vainika »

vasanthakokilam wrote: Set B = { A proper subset of A, probably much smaller subset, that is mathematically close to the correct curve for PMGMR for Adhara Shadja }
Or, given that interpretations of s'ahAna vary, maybe we can speak of a "family of correct curves" differing mostly with respect to the relative pitch of G :)

uday_shankar
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by uday_shankar »

vk

I just realized that such analysis is very inadequate in several other areas. I am running out of steam talking through all this (after staying away for so long). The more and more I talk, the less and less I convey :(.

Some issues not addressed (or revisited for emphasis):

1) Shruti shuddham is a matter of perception management
2) Consistency is more important than actual swarasthana or swara contour...quick example equal temperament doesn't matter (HM, Srinivas, etc..)

Alas, this will open more cans of misunderstanding...

VK RAMAN
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by VK RAMAN »

"Shruti shuddham is a matter of perception management" - this is true for those who do not use tampura or sruti box or harmonium while they are singing. Case in point is Hindu Punjabi bhajan; for people used to sruti will think that they are shouting, but the devotees in hundreds coming there gets immersed in the bhajan.

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Uday, we can talk about them one at a time.

One thing you can do is define what Shruthi Suddham is in terms of Acoustics/sound/frequency area and in terms of what you mention ( perception etc. )

As often happens in this kind of discussion, we discuss semantics ( in the sense of what word means what ) and get stuck there with different people bringing in different meanings. But we can go beyond that if you put your foot down and define what it is and then discuss aspects of it.

I am definitely interested in knowing the definition of shruthi suddham in your mind. Make us understand it,may be with some examples. Either discriptive or with audio. We will then echo back our understanding and you can see if we caught on to what you wrote.

No hurry, take your time.

uday_shankar
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by uday_shankar »

vk, thanks. Nick's visiting me soon and I'll take this matter seriously and come up with meaningful demos. You and I can also work together over time to articulate this...I instinctively prefer to demo than articulate and that laziness always creeps in.

uday_shankar
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by uday_shankar »

VK RAMAN wrote: this is true for those who do not use tampura or sruti box or harmonium while they are singing.
Maybe...but that's not the context I had in mind.

vallknowme
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by vallknowme »

what vk does is even worse. Shruti "quantification" is bad as such. vk is "theorizing" it now by formulating axioms!

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Ha..ha..vallknowme, Till now you have been using the advaidic tool 'neti neti' :) I hope this concept of Shruthi is not that philosophical and abstract, and you can actually explain what it is. Set me straight!

vallknowme
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by vallknowme »

மாதில் கூறுஉடை மாப்பெரும் கருணையன்
நாதப் பெரும்பறை நவின்று கறங்கவும்

rshankar
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by rshankar »

vallknowme wrote:மாதில் கூறுஉடை மாப்பெரும் கருணையன்
நாதப் பெரும்பறை நவின்று கறங்கவும்
huh?

vallknowme
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by vallknowme »

to appreciate naada brahmam is the first step to understand shruti.

Pallavisree1976
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by Pallavisree1976 »

To be very honest, Hindustani musicians are the ones who have great shruthi alignment because they take their time to really explore a raga. Hindustani music is more raga based while carnatic is more composition based. So, hindustani teachers in the beginning will really patiently teach their students how to match the shruthi to their students. I know this because I am a student of hindustani music and my hindustani music teacher spent four to six months teaching very new students both children and adults who knew absolutely nothing about music just how to match the shruthi.

Pallavisree1976
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by Pallavisree1976 »

To be honest, the correct way to get shruthi alignment and maintain proper shruthi is to properly practice all the alankarams in any and all the ragams of your choice in all the speeds with proper gamakams or ornamentations, and this is exactly what hindustani musicians do. In hindustani music, it is called " riyaz" and in carnatic music, it is called "sadhakam" The hindustani " meend" is equivalent to the carnatic " jaaru" The hindustani "murkis" and "khatkas" are equivalent to the carnatic short broken phrases imitated of the instruments like the flute, the violin or the nadaswaram etc...

Pallavisree1976
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by Pallavisree1976 »

So, instead of simply learning composition after composition, I think the first step for Carnatic musicians would be to work on really singing or playing the alankarams in all ragams

Pallavisree1976
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by Pallavisree1976 »

Then, automatically shruthi alignment will come

msakella
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by msakella »

Can anybody define the 'competent music-teacher'??? Till now nobody did!!!amsharma

Purist
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by Purist »

msakella wrote: 30 Nov 2021, 13:22 Can anybody define the 'competent music-teacher'??? Till now nobody did!!!amsharma
'competent music teacher' - means ' amsharma ' :)

msakella
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by msakella »

If, at all, there is a competent music-teacher, he/she can only answer this question or who can answer this question properly is the only competent music-teacher. That's all. amsharma/msakella
Last edited by msakella on 02 Dec 2021, 08:34, edited 1 time in total.

msakella
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by msakella »

Mostly all our people either turn a deaf-ear or a blind-eye towards such critical questions. In fact, each and everybody is very highly inquisitive to know the answer. But, after knowing the details more than 95% again turn a blind-eye or deaf-ear doing nothing for our society or for his family or even for himself/herself. Only 5% may respond very poorly!!! This is the very bad state of affairs of our country!!! amsharma/msakella

thenpaanan
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by thenpaanan »

I see a lot of mention of practice and hours spent in sruthi alignment in this thread. I beg to emphatically differ. Lots of hours spent practising does not automatically confer Sruthi shuddham (the term translates to "purity" but the term should be accuracy, for which I dont know the appropriate Sanskrit term). Neither is it true that Hindustani music magically creates voice alignment with sruthi.

I believe (and this is simply my opinion, please feel free to challenge) the following.

1. Students do not all come to me born with the knowledge of what it means to be aligned with sruthi. Some do for sure, but many don't even know what it means. SO, the first job is ear training. I used to do this with an obsolete electronic sruthi box -- the ones where you have to actually tune the notes by hand using the analog dial. I would deliberately misalign the notes and ask the student to align the two shadja's. Some students could do it instantly and intuitively, others struggled even after months of doing this in every class. In either case I found it a very instructive exercise for both student and teacher. Unfortunately, that sruthi box is now non-functional and I cannot find that hand-tuning feature in any modern electronic sruthi box. I will have to fashion one out of the many tuner apps available but I have not gotten around to doing that.

2. The second thing is that ear training does not automatically give voice alignment. I have seen all kinds of students in this regard. Some can simply hit the nail on the head (to translate a Tamil metaphor). Some get it after some effort, and some still grope after many months. It seems some mysterious psychosomatic (body-mind) phenomenon is at play. Whatever that might be, practice definitely helps in this regard, but it is not the kind of practice you see in Carnatic music. Hindustani music practice does come closer, but I have seen many a Hindustani singer, only amateurs, not professionals, sing off pitch(I cannot be so generous about the Carnatic scene) . The difference to me looks like nothing more than the simple fact that the overwhelming majority of Hindustani pieces are slow in pace and thus harder to hide voice imperfections. Just like it is more obvious when a singer has harshness in their voice when they sing a slow song, it is also the case with sruthi imperfections. And Hindustani students having to do this from the very beginning of their learning, probably imbibe that subconsciously. My children learn Hindustani voice and I have seen some children start out with very misaligned voices for over many months and then some of them suddenly "get it" with the voice alignment. This observation is what led me to hypothesise that there is something internal in our bodies and minds that has to click for sruthi alignment to happen.

3. Sruthi alignment is most likely to happen when the vocal range matches the range of the music. I have seen small children ages 7 or so singing in Carnatic lessons at the scale of G (5 kattai). This is quite an atrocity to commit. You can even tell that the kids are struggling with the low pitch. They will never learn what it means to sing comfortably or sing in pitch But our teachers are oblivious to this. They themselves sing at G or lower (if female), and expect all their students of any age to follow along. I've even talked to some Carnatic teachers about this but did not get any substantial engagement -- it seems we are set in our habits and dont want to change ("it worked for our elders, why should we change it?"). This may also be where Hindustani teachers do marginally better -- they may just as oblivious about the cause but they are helped by the mere fact that Hindustani singing happens at significantly higher scales (e.g. women teachers teach at A or A#, which is a whole note above the Carnatic mean).

4. Sruthi alignment is not a constant. As we age our voices change and we must retrain/retune ourselves periodically. It is probably the case that most singers take it for granted that once they have achieved alignment to their satisfaction, it is there to stay. Far from the truth. Sruthi alignment much like the rest of your voice takes constant attention and nurture. I can say this from first-hand experience. I had occasion to listen to my own recording of a concert that I had given three years ago when I discovered that I had sung an entire kriti being slightly but noticeably flat. It makes me shudder to think about it. Due diligence is necessary because we are using this mysterious mind-body connection to align ourselves with the tambura and so, at some point we might think that we are aligned whereas as a point of fact we are off. The only cure is recording and listening to ourselves periodically to ensure alignment. In this day and age this is trivial to do but it takes some discipline to do this. I don't know how many of our young turks in Carnatic music do this. I myself went through this excruciating practice of singing and recording myself in 15 second increments to re-align my singing, to retrain myself on the feeling of being in tune. In spite of that I am sure that I am straying off the reservation sometimes without being aware of it.

5. Sruthi alignment is more challenging when your voice is under-prepared. It is well-known that your sruthi will waver or stay misaligned if the voice is not warmed up. (I dont know how this works for instrumentalists -- is there some time an instrumentalist needs to play themselves in?) So also if you venture to part of your range which is difficult for your voice, your sruthi will suffer. The glaring examples are in the higher octave. You hear many a singer go off-sruthi but only when they sing high notes and not elsewhere. But you can notice this sometimes even in the lower octave. Many of our singers cannot negotiate places below the shadja easily and as a result you see them looking down but not reaching the low note. This is due to inadequate preparation and lack of proper technique to hit notes that are beyond your natural range. Carnatic music is very demanding on the voice, even more so than Hindustani or western opera, but our preparation seems inversely proportional to the challenge on hand.

6. Sruthi alignment is more challenging at higher speeds, contrary to how we perceive it as singers. It is easy to hide misalignment when we are singing fast phrases, and perhaps this leads to laziness on our part. We as teachers don't teach our students to pay close attention to every single note that is being sung in a fast phrase. Instead we give them an easy "shabaash" when they repeat some fast phrase adequately in class. This teaches them the false bravura effect -- further reinforced by audiences (mostly parents) adding their instant shabaash when their kids sing a fast phrase, even if only in a "somewhat ok" manner. I noticed, on the other hand, with my children that their Hindustani teacher neither faulted nor praised their students' fast phrases in their initial training. It was only in the advanced class that they paid attention to "taankari" where the teacher discusses clarity, weight, and alignment of each note in a fast taan. The teacher pays close attention to how the fast phrases are sung, separately and as its own thing. It feels as if you need to build your vocal muscles to be able to sing fast and well at the same time, and it is pointless to perfect it without that "tayyari" (preparation). Now tell me which Carnatic kritis can we teach, and which teachers teach in this manner? Our pedagogy seems to be based on teaching kritis that we teach in all or nothing manner. Do we teach different sangatis to students at different levels on a systematic basis or do we teach the same sangatis in even a simple kriti, say "marugelara" to a beginner that an advanced student would learn? In Western music, I noticed that there are "Kids" versions of famous classical pieces that have been simplified. So my kid could think that she can play "Ode to Joy" but what she can actually play is a kids version. When she gets older she will relearn it in all its grandness. Similarly, Hindustani khayals seem to be infinitely flexible to suit the student and the teacher and are amenable to be learned and relearned. Do we do that with our Carnatic kritis?

7. And now for a technical point. Even the notion of sruthi alignment is not a precise objective thing. As humans we will have (different) windows of frequency error within which we sense whether something is in sruthi or not. My 11 year old has a far finer notion of alignment than me. Some days I would have her listen to me practise and just silently shake her head whenever I am out of sruthi. It was damning to say the least. I could not proceed any longer than a minute at a time without her shaking her head. When I listened to the recording there were places where I would not have said that I was out of sruthi but she felt I was. But it was never the other way around -- in no case did she think I was in tune when I thought I was not. This only leads me to believe that she is hearing better than mine and so she has a better "micro-alignment" than I do. Beyond just hearing loss, there might be other confounding factors -- for example, would a singer experiencing temporary high blood pressure due to performance anxiety sense that his/her voice is sounding lower than it actually is, causing them to go sharp? I don't know.

To repeat myself, these are just my beliefs. Feel free to concur or contest, but please try to do so with objectivity.

-T

shankarank
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by shankarank »

adunAlatAno ennamO, hindutAniyilE edO maunam ellam kAttu, viradam ellAm irundu sensitivitiya increase paNNikiRarkaLO? :D

shankarank
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by shankarank »

I see some comments about violin schools in the first page of this thread.

https://youtu.be/P36qbfBEzvQ?t=2077

Is the above Sruti Shuddam or no?

There was once an opportunity for me @ nAda inbam. The Marungapuri Gopalakrishna Iyer festival ( the one supported by a connoisseur called Mr Jagatheesan who goes shorty as Jaga - Vittal Ramamurthy talks about him in early this years repeat of that festival) where violin concerts of YACMers happened. This was 2001 season? RKSK and Vardarajan were playing together and it was not hard to notice for me, that Varadarajan's violin sounded better. Side by side comparison in the same concert.

But it took some years of listening to doyens to understand what is the intent of some of these violinists.

There is an entire school of violinists in the TNK kind of approach, who carry over the nasal tail ( including mukkals and munagals) of vocalists as though all of it is music. The gamaka endings have a tail to it visible especially when they end a phrase.

Semmangudi Mama's nasal tail - is how I would characterize it -crude laymanly.

Sruti beyond a point is contextual also. It starts with a pure svara in training, but a musician takes different intentions into their musical conception. So Sruti is not a deterministic physical quantity. It becomes a distinct tradition for a set of musicians and their rasikas. A sampradAya or part of a bANi.

rajeshnat
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by rajeshnat »

@srkris
Post no 185 of then paanan does not have whitespaces . Could you please add for better readability against each point please

Thenpaanan
Nice points . Please add a liberal white space in future posts of yours

rajeshnat
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by rajeshnat »

CM musicians in general cannot pause at their pace , because they have to be in aligned with the rythmmic beats of percussion and with the flow of krithi. HM musician has a liberty of stopping at any point and stay with the main sruthi, the krithi is just an addendum for raga . There is just structural constraints within carnatic vs hindustani that dictates the pragmaticness.

In general I have noticed when HM musicians sing suddenly say a volley of swaras they also go off sruthi. Take the volley of same set of swaras say by MMI he does not lose shruti. In general This characterization as though HM have more shruthi then CM is bit like telling cycles are less pollution free then two wheeler automobiles. sEach genre has its own challenges - ask HM musicians to take a thamizh kayal with karadu moradana thamizh words like say tiruvadi saranam enru nambi vanden or a volley of telugu words with a difficult eduppu or take off like kadanuvaariki or some dense sanskrit words like akshayalingavibho . They have never even tried .

In general in CM those voices that have a heavier usage of brigas within the course of delivering krithis , there is a bit of tension in voice which cannot conform to shruthi smoothness . I would any day prefer a daring Semmangudi , Maharajapuram VIshwanatha iyer with their carnatic ideas then a sweet shruthi aligned Bombay Jayashri or a hindustani counterpart who usually squats consistently on few notes and takes a longer slumber there . Musical ideas remain to be a prime struggle for most of the hindustani musicians (not all)with excessive repetition. But there are lot of youngsters in CM who are excessively taking a brash approach , some of them lose quite a lot of shruthi ,but that is only one half of practioners.

May be this post is opening a new topic like "Why do HM musicians struggle with ideas ?" :idea: :!:

msakella
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by msakella »

Each and every music-teacher (not a cheater or not a parasitical performer) must go through the above 185th and 189th posts of our brother-members thenpaanan and rajeshnat very attentively and seriously to follow them.

In fact, at this old age of 85, I prefer more to talk than to write longer passages. It also helps a lot if our forum holds periodical zoom discussions bringing the like-minded people like the above brother-members to one place. By doing so we can gather many such ideas and implement them for the betterment of our kids. Implementing them is the major problem as, at the first instance, it is very difficult even to find an efficient and honest music-teacher and later to supervise them periodically to find in which way the implementation is effective with successful end-results.

Most of all we all must mind that purity of note is very less in our Carnatic music as each and every musician likes to sing the traditional Gamakas only more effectively with all their dissonances unmindfully. That’s why we all must always initiate our kids right from the very first day of their learning either in note or rhythm to rely upon the machine only, keyboard or metronome, but not the teacher which I have been doing since last more than 20 years with abundant success. The teacher’s role must be less than 5% and the student’s role must be more than 95%. How many of us agree with this and implement honestly??? amsharma/msakella

thenpaanan
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by thenpaanan »

rajeshnat wrote: 08 Dec 2021, 16:02 CM musicians in general cannot pause at their pace , because they have to be in aligned with the rythmmic beats of percussion and with the flow of krithi. HM musician has a liberty of stopping at any point and stay with the main sruthi, the krithi is just an addendum for raga . There is just structural constraints within carnatic vs hindustani that dictates the pragmaticness.
That may be true as stated but is it not the case that these "structural constraints" are man-made i.e. self-inflicted? We have a choice here -- the tradition may demand higher complexity of rhythmic structure in general but nowhere does it say that this can be done at the expense of tonal fidelity. We can choose to slow things down or find other workarounds if speed is the obstacle to sruthi shuddham. Blaming the kritis for it seems a non-starter to me.
rajeshnat wrote: In general I have noticed when HM musicians sing suddenly say a volley of swaras they also go off sruthi. Take the volley of same set of swaras say by MMI he does not lose shruti. In general This characterization as though HM have more shruthi then CM is bit like telling cycles are less pollution free then two wheeler automobiles. sEach genre has its own challenges - ask HM musicians to take a thamizh kayal with karadu moradana thamizh words like say tiruvadi saranam enru nambi vanden or a volley of telugu words with a difficult eduppu or take off like kadanuvaariki or some dense sanskrit words like akshayalingavibho . They have never even tried .
Your comparison is akin to comparing a league-level tennis player with Federer. MMI was among the very very few who strived and achieved tonal perfection. You have to pick a similar once-in-a-century musician to compare with. In any case, I concede that not every HMian sings every phrase to perfection, only in general terms. But your example of MMI shows that it is certainly possible to sing traditional CM with speed and verve _and_ sruthi. Certainly not easy, but possible and worth striving for. We just need to work harder.

Re: your examples of kritis with difficult words, I don't buy the argument that the words make us go off shruthi. My western voice teacher while commenting that my Indian songs were very very consonant-heavy, also pointed out that I was repeatedly going off pitch on some words in particular and helped me correct them. Until he pointed these out I was oblivious to this fact. He specifically asked me to sing a composition with fewer words -- I sang a varnam and we worked on the syllable attack there first before we moved on to kritis. The point is that it can be done -- just needs discipline and the deliberate choice to practice certain phrases harder until you can execute to perfection. A carpenter cannot complain that his work is shoddy because his saw is blunt. He knows what he needs do to the saw.

I go back to my earlier argument that we have a choice. Our tradition has produced such kritis that are consonant-heavy but the tradition is of us, we as a community influence the tradition going forward. The common excuse of "what to do, our elders have said this and we cannot change it" does not apply so well here. We can always change the tradition and create new kinds of kritis. Perhaps some seer or avant garde composer will accept this challenge and compose kritis with far fewer words.

Your argument that HM is devoid of compositions with difficult words is not quite true either. They may not be the mainstay of the music, but they are performed and sometimes performed with pyrotechnic speed as well.
rajeshnat wrote: In general in CM those voices that have a heavier usage of brigas within the course of delivering krithis , there is a bit of tension in voice which cannot conform to shruthi smoothness . I would any day prefer a daring Semmangudi , Maharajapuram VIshwanatha iyer with their carnatic ideas then a sweet shruthi aligned Bombay Jayashri or a hindustani counterpart who usually squats consistently on few notes and takes a longer slumber there . Musical ideas remain to be a prime struggle for most of the hindustani musicians (not all)with excessive repetition. But there are lot of youngsters in CM who are excessively taking a brash approach , some of them lose quite a lot of shruthi , but that is only one half of practioners.
You seem to imply that the two things are mutually exclusive. SSI was a great musician inspite of his voice, but that does not mean that an SSI with a great voice cannot exist. Also, as the vidwan Sriram Parasuram said in one of his lecdems, the typical singing of CM has added on a lot more complexity than in, say, Veena Dhanammal's time. These brigas and complex sangatis have been added by us in recent times. Given this observation, it seems illogical to complain that these brigas keep us from singing in tune.
rajeshnat wrote: May be this post is opening a new topic like "Why do HM musicians struggle with ideas ?" :idea: :!:
I find some of the ideas that HM musicians bring to the table very deep and fascinating (even though I am not trained in HM). Sometimes I find myself wondering how I can structure my niraval the way they structure their alaps and taans -- that would give me the opportunity to sometimes explore the raga behind the song and the words of the neraval line rather than quickly settle on the much easier thigh-slapping rhythm-bound exercises that are the norm in CM.

Thanks for the discussion.
-T

NB @rajeshnat Looking back, my use of whitespace seems to have improved but only marginally here. :lol:

Nick H
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by Nick H »

thenpaanan wrote: 11 Dec 2021, 10:02 rather than quickly settle on the much easier thigh-slapping rhythm-bound exercises
The thigh slapping itself is the biggest evidence that people are not very concerned about what CM sounds like. But that's another story :lol:

shankarank
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by shankarank »

It is not much easier - only that it is a well settled practice within the karNataka kutcheri paddhati as it has come down to us. Some musicians make it more intense in their practice as they see beauty in it. Since it is common amongst those that ascend the stage in Mylapore in Sastri hall, Raga Sudha , now Arkay to get certified as vidvans , we think it is easier.

Even in Mylaporedom , layamillAda evvaLavu sangItam nammaLa kandandu pOyirukku? How much layam unconscious music has gone past us? YACM era rasikas like me who have never seen or heard any of the golden era doyens can attest, NOW after hearing the old tapes!

Oru araikkAl aksharam taLLi pOccuna mitchatta eduttu pocketla pOTTukka muDiyumAnnu kETTa Mridanga vidvangal unDU. If it shifts by 1/8th , do I take the balance and put it in my pocket - asked some Mridangists!

Music among North American kids is languishing from being a performance practice , is due to the lack of this only. A good concert team of Violinist and Mridangist not easily available to even try this practice. No time investment possible - as time has a different monetary value here as well. If rAgA music can make people sit and listen, then this should have already taken root!

May be the kids in NA ought to try that. Don't worry about accompaniments. Give rAgA music. Pick two convenient soft syllables - ta - na to construct a pallavi of your choice and fufill a rhythm section for "completeness". Mridanga tALam , a repetitive one is available in machine form - use it if you so miss it!

Or just shelve it. Give pure rAgA music and sing a composition in slow pace. Who prevents you? Cultivate your audience.

If music is only rAgA , it has already reached masses since the days of G Ramanathan, Isai arasar MSV , isai gnAni Ilayaraja and isai genius Rahman! The concept of rAgA has reached and heard, why worry about the form of it.

Look! Beat is there since primitive days of humans. Much long before a note is heard - which was heard only from birds. If you think you are a progressed human, as liberals and thinkers are telling you , you ought to be able to observe the progression in beats also. If you don't care, why bother with it.

Nick H
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by Nick H »

The progression in beats is inherent in music. All music... And all musicians, should be. Similarly to twitch the toe, twiddle the fingers, shake the head, is a natural part of listening. If we are at home we may even dance! Good!

None of that is anything like overlaying the music, suppressing its accents (especially in our heavily syncopated passages) with an ugly noise.

But hey, got the beat? Maybe don't need the music then!

RSR
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by RSR »

sruthi suddham is about rendering, especially, vocal rendering . ...not necessarily in a concert platform...How does percussion relate to this?

shankarank
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by shankarank »

The evidence we have for this discussion is only in concert platform!
Nick H wrote: 12 Dec 2021, 12:24 None of that is anything like overlaying the music, suppressing its accents (especially in our heavily syncopated passages) with an ugly noise.
Well then, a sweet noise is only a conduit to music then. Just like keeping the beat. Both are fine in most cases. Un-hearable music, audience will dwindle and out goes the musician. We are talking about perfection at the last edges! If syllables and rhythmic formulations are impediments, and Sruti is paramount, then remove the impediments. We are mature progressed peoples!

But we should not talk as if "laya" shuddham is achieved easily! For that also MMI is the example as well. But MMI's methods will work only for MMI. Others have to find their own ways.

As regards real core "rAgA" music, it had only limited success for other musicians as this story goes, in the same video: https://youtu.be/P36qbfBEzvQ?t=8079

Gist: If one wants to succeed they need some unnecessary stuff in their music opined GNB, to a boy's parents, the boy who sang all core rakthi rAgAs being taken to him for a blessing. So that was by itself never a ticket to success.

For all we know GNB himself got attention initially because he was a "graduate" ! paiyyan BA Honors padiccurukkAn ( the boy is BA honors!) may as well would have been a selling point. inda societiya nalla Azham pArtavan ( I have gone deep into the undercurrents of that generation ) - I know I am right!

Fandom is for all irrational reasons - of course that would not sustain for long by those parameters. And BA Honors also worked only for GNB! :twisted:

So giving Sruti shuddham Carnatic music is not going to make it widely accepted!

Nick H
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by Nick H »

shankarank wrote: 13 Dec 2021, 01:41 The evidence we have for this discussion is only in concert platform!
Nick H wrote: 12 Dec 2021, 12:24 None of that is anything like overlaying the music, suppressing its accents (especially in our heavily syncopated passages) with an ugly noise.
Well then, a sweet noise is only a conduit to music then. Just like keeping the beat. Both are fine in most cases. Un-hearable music, audience will dwindle and out goes the musician. We are talking about perfection at the last edges! If syllables and rhythmic formulations are impediments, and Sruti is paramount, then remove the impediments. We are mature progressed peoples!

But we should not talk as if "laya" shuddham is achieved easily! For that also MMI is the example as well. But MMI's methods will work only for MMI. Others have to find their own ways.
Indeed not! Music has two main components (bare bones) and neither is easy. Both are wonderful too.

RSR
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by RSR »

The discussion is about Sruthi purity in CM and how to achive it,. only.
-
Not about swara-fidelity, or about the exact prescribed gamakams ..these will occur if one sings without playing to the gallery and serious study of musicology works , intense listening and practice.
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Rather a difficult topic and depends on the listener's frequency response too.
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It is not that we have to go to HM to realize this.
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There are some classics by Thyagaraja Swami..
No raga elaboration, no niraval, no kalpana swarams..just plain rendering of the kruthi.. with real bhaavam, of the kruthi,
That is how Swami meant them to be sung and he was a vocalist too who gave devagandhari elaboratiion for hours together...on a special occasion at Kovur.
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It is difficult to imagine that any one of the Trinity, sang any of their glorious compositions, with percussion accompanmet. Sri.MD sang in temples with his VeeNaa only
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-..The vocalist should forget the audience.., close his eyes.. immerse himself in the raagam and the lyrics.. No upper range.
.Siinging slow paced kruthis, in low range of sthayi really tests one's sruthi suddham.
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These are samples of quintessential CM..
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Needs no percussion accompaniment.. nor violin support.
--
1- kanakana - GowLa
2- koluva ..kodhandapaani- Todi
3- upacharamu - Bairavi
4- chakkani raaja- karaharapriya
5- giripai - sahana
6- enthanine sabari- mukaari
7- merusamaana- maayamalava gowla
8- nannupalimpa-mohanam
9- aadhayasri- aahiri
10- Naama kusuma- Sriragam

There are atleast 40 more such compositions of Thyagaraj.
rivaling MD kruthis.
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There are no ragas like these in HM though the MK scales are common. ..Even in CM itself, not many kruthis in the same raagam with such pure musical and spiritual impact. ..All the kruthis should be sung in low sthayi. and slowly.
---
Not all the vocalists can manage to render these with full justice to the theme of the kruthi. and maintain the sruthi correctly .
But , if the audience lacks the capacity to absorb pure music , whose fault is it? where did the concert pattern fail?
-
These have been amply exemplified by male vocalists of the bygone-era. ...like MMI, AAlathur, SSI....

msakella
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by msakella »

My experiences for more than 60 years as a critical-music-teacher of Vocal & Violin having very regularly worked in the Govt. Music Colleges of Andhra Pradesh as a full-time teacher and having very efficiently and very successfully initiated the students for more than 95% even without singing or playing myself for not more than 5% unlike any other music teacher on the globe certainly differ with all the other teachers by the blessings of the Almighty.

Right from the very first day of learning I shall make all the students work very regularly and vigorously and learn things on their own with the most minimum help from me in respect of both Laya and Shruti. Most of all these methods I have already brought out from all my different posts in this forum. But, as usual, nowadays, as many of our readers are not that serious or sensitive to go through all such vital points of students, make notes, seriously follow them and interact with me if needed many of such invaluable points have not been propagated properly. Long long ago many serious people have been participating in the discussions of such invaluable material and much interaction was also there to communicate or learn. But, nowadays, all those things have decreased very rapidly and I have already lost my interest in again bringing out all those things here.

A very perfect plan of action must very scrupulously be implemented by an efficient and honest teacher in such vital things of our music to maintain higher standards in our students. Who bells the cat? None! amsharma/msakella

msakella
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Re: Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

Post by msakella »

To tell the fact, at this old age of 84 years, as per my very long experience as a musician, Mridangist,Vocalist, Violinist, regular fulltime teacher, examiner, performer and author of five music books along with notations and pre-recorded CDs, sensitivity must also be adjudged basing upon its percentage, as average-sensitive at 40%, good-sensitive at 50%, better-sensitive at 80%, best-sensitive at 100% and above 100% Super-sensitive.

For example, I was (in 2001) a Top-ranking Violinist as per the AIR gradation (presently I am only “0” having left – not Violin – but practice at this old age, but always ready – not to teach – but only to initiate kids without even touching the violin or singing making them play even a mini-concert hardly within two years). If that top-rank in 2001 was at average-sensitive of 40% the Great MSG’s also was Top-rank but at Super-sensitive level of above 100%. If one thinks of all the things of our life on these lines we may be able to adjudge others justifiably. In the same manner, the same thing applies even to Shruti-sensitivity also if you are sensible enough. amsharma/msakella

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