After locking yet another derailed thread, we really felt we had to say something about the current trends on rasikas.org. With rant getting rather popular here, we decided to rant a bit ourselves. So please hear us out.
For one, kindly try to get the music to do some of the talking too. That's proof of the pudding. That's what we tried to do in the early days of this forum and it didn't work because we didn't have anything but rapidshare, utterly slow internet and some members and musicians themselves threatening copyrights on us.
These days, music is aplenty, but anecdotes, useful info and recordings have taken a backseat to irrelevant rants, ideologies, diatribes, detours and closed threads. We get feedback privately that the only time the forum talks something on music is when they write reviews. With many of our original members gone or not posting anymore, we have lost a lot of musical discussion. We are told that some of you ranters are responsible for driving away our better members off the forum by said members when we ask them why they stopped. The grim reaper took away the rest.
We kicked out the incorrigible worst, but that's not helping anything on the positive side of contribution.
We have a lot of members, and add like 50 of them every other day, but as one post some time back once pointed out, 99% of them haven't made a post ever. So no fresh blood on the horizon right now.
There are plenty of younger members and students of music who are not allowed to sign up
or write here (mostly by their gurus) and are actively discouraged from reading here because we are getting musically irrelevant. And the attitude of some people here and the generation gap won't encourage the next gen either. This is what we get to hear, and people do not know who we are, so this is unfiltered. None of us are getting younger either and we wonder about the future of this place without us.
If there wasn't some activity in ragas or musicians or reviews or requests, we would probably say bye bye to music altogether and rename ourselves rants.org
The good news is that our FB page is far more active than anything here, we have over 30000 members there, but that's kind of day to say use and throw fast food stuff. Of course musicians and rasikas have their own FB profiles.A tremendous amount of music, pics, videos and event info is shared on FB and almost everyone is a real person whom we can find out there. We cannot do that here.
But FB has serious limitations too. No one writes anything deep there like they do here, you can't search or categorize anything for future accessibility like here. Nothing is searchable, nothing is organized on a timeline. It can be an overload of nice 30 second reads, but with rather deleterious effects on our attention spans. No one will ever read there what was written years back. That can only be possible here.
Some of our members are doing far more on their own FB pages contributing to music than here. That could be shared here. Some of those better links could be shared here too. Some good stuff here, posts, reviews, anecdotes could be shared there on FB where more people will read it. This cross pollination would be a great idea.
For this, all of us need to get more proactive. That isn't happening as much as it could. Of late though we feel we're part time class teachers. And when we're not that, we're always on lockdown duty.
High time we got honest here about how we feel, after yet another thread locked up. More music, more sharing, and less noise please.
A mod's musings
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ganesh_mourthy
- Posts: 1380
- Joined: 02 Sep 2007, 23:08
Re: A mod's musings
Ah shoot! That is not a good way to start though. But, I am sorry to know this is happening. Most of the people we know ( the old timers) probably have other priorities and lack the speed and vigour to take on the new comers. The old timers , most of them if not all , have each others whatsapp , and that might have led to intra-discussions, and even groups.
As a result, posting something here that meanders to banter and back to serious discussions is lost. There were handful of us all the time and we knew most of them, at least more generous and active friends. It was like a family get together, which has become bigger org now. It is a good move , but it has its flipside too, and the outcome is the rant by the moderators, quite understandably . Nonetheless , this has not made Srkris and mods to back off -only that running a tight ship has become impossible.
My hands were full and hence I was away , but I never had any problem with the newer lot. I think it would be good to send a hello message to all old timers with a small nudge so they come back . Remember that Rasikas was the only social platform that most of us had then which is not the case now.
Rain or shine , we remain here.
As a result, posting something here that meanders to banter and back to serious discussions is lost. There were handful of us all the time and we knew most of them, at least more generous and active friends. It was like a family get together, which has become bigger org now. It is a good move , but it has its flipside too, and the outcome is the rant by the moderators, quite understandably . Nonetheless , this has not made Srkris and mods to back off -only that running a tight ship has become impossible.
My hands were full and hence I was away , but I never had any problem with the newer lot. I think it would be good to send a hello message to all old timers with a small nudge so they come back . Remember that Rasikas was the only social platform that most of us had then which is not the case now.
Rain or shine , we remain here.
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RSR
- Posts: 3427
- Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31
Re: A mod's musings
The best solution is to lock 'General Discussion' itself.
There are so many other sections including the lounge.
As it is there are so many relevant sections as given below.
1) Ragas 2) Layam 3) Anniversaries and obituaries ( it will be better to split them into two)
4) innovations 5) event announcements 6) concert reviews
7) album/recording reviews
8) vaggeyakaras 9) vidwans and vidushis 10) critics and rasikas
11) request for lyrics, notations and translations
( each should have separate section (ie) i) lyrics ii) notations iii) translations
12) light classical
13) hindusthani music
14) dance
15) history and culture
16) language and literature
and so on.
Hopefully all the above are related to music as an art.,
Where then is the need for 'general discussion'?
The sections can be re-arranged in the order of priority from the view point of learners as Ragam, Layam, Vaggeyakaras, Musicians (preferably separate sections for vocal and instrumental with further divisions as musicians of 1930-1980 and 1980 & later).
Lyrics, notations and translations. ( separate sections)
As in comment box of many newspapers, the letter count can be restricted to 500.
beginners' Q and A and internet resources.
Psychologically, if there are too many sections, only the first few sectins get noticed.
It may be advisable to have a design to give equal importance to each section. to enable direct access.
- If we remove the General discussion ( freeze it), most of the rambling and side-tracking posts will vanish.
There are so many other sections including the lounge.
As it is there are so many relevant sections as given below.
1) Ragas 2) Layam 3) Anniversaries and obituaries ( it will be better to split them into two)
4) innovations 5) event announcements 6) concert reviews
7) album/recording reviews
8) vaggeyakaras 9) vidwans and vidushis 10) critics and rasikas
11) request for lyrics, notations and translations
( each should have separate section (ie) i) lyrics ii) notations iii) translations
12) light classical
13) hindusthani music
14) dance
15) history and culture
16) language and literature
and so on.
Hopefully all the above are related to music as an art.,
Where then is the need for 'general discussion'?
The sections can be re-arranged in the order of priority from the view point of learners as Ragam, Layam, Vaggeyakaras, Musicians (preferably separate sections for vocal and instrumental with further divisions as musicians of 1930-1980 and 1980 & later).
Lyrics, notations and translations. ( separate sections)
As in comment box of many newspapers, the letter count can be restricted to 500.
beginners' Q and A and internet resources.
Psychologically, if there are too many sections, only the first few sectins get noticed.
It may be advisable to have a design to give equal importance to each section. to enable direct access.
- If we remove the General discussion ( freeze it), most of the rambling and side-tracking posts will vanish.
Last edited by RSR on 20 Dec 2019, 10:52, edited 1 time in total.
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shankarank
- Posts: 4194
- Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16
Re: A mod's musings
I cannot delete the posts anymore, so please proceed to do so. I won't be offended. But when people bring in their biases from non-musical world and impinge on to things musical, I just had to point those out. Musical discussions are still happening, as I see it.
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Ramasubramanian M.K
- Posts: 1226
- Joined: 05 May 2009, 08:33
Re: A mod's musings
Moderator: I have just saved a long draft, Please advise HOW I can post it in this message thread.
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RasikasModerator2
- Posts: 151
- Joined: 27 Aug 2018, 21:02
Re: A mod's musings
MKR, welcome back! Hope you are doing well. Your stories about so many musicians and their near and dear are deeply missed.
For drafts, just copy the whole thing, save in a note pad file offline. Then log in, open a post, copy paste the whole thing and save. Done. You can also use the Save Draft button while writing using the editor.
Restricting the word count is the single worst thing we can do as it kills depth of writing - it will kill the forum and turn it into Twitter. All our reviews will become like the ones in the newspaper. Forget it, we will have to shut shop then. It's up to you all to write quality stuff.
We also want to put the request section on top or at least below the main section for all kinds of requests.
For drafts, just copy the whole thing, save in a note pad file offline. Then log in, open a post, copy paste the whole thing and save. Done. You can also use the Save Draft button while writing using the editor.
Restricting the word count is the single worst thing we can do as it kills depth of writing - it will kill the forum and turn it into Twitter. All our reviews will become like the ones in the newspaper. Forget it, we will have to shut shop then. It's up to you all to write quality stuff.
We also want to put the request section on top or at least below the main section for all kinds of requests.
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RSR
- Posts: 3427
- Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31
Re: A mod's musings
There is already a word-count limit. It need not be of twitter size nor a blog size. Why not insist that members should have a blog? They can then give a para with continuation link to their blog.
I am all for freezing the 'general discussion' section and moving it to the last section.
One more suggestion is to monitor the activity in individual sections and give a report of views in the section at the end of each month. There are many threads that have been dead /dormant for more than many years.
Giving links to magazine articles does not work these days as the users are forced to subscribe. to the magazine.
Cryptic one liners , mostly offensive and vacuous should be avoided.
I forgot to add. Very important.
Whenever any forum member is mentioned by name, we should make it obligatory to use the @ so and so facility. to alert the mentioned member. The @ facility is sometimes sluggish.
The like button should be removed. The 'liker' can instead add a few lines at least to explain, what he /she liked!
I am all for freezing the 'general discussion' section and moving it to the last section.
One more suggestion is to monitor the activity in individual sections and give a report of views in the section at the end of each month. There are many threads that have been dead /dormant for more than many years.
Giving links to magazine articles does not work these days as the users are forced to subscribe. to the magazine.
Cryptic one liners , mostly offensive and vacuous should be avoided.
I forgot to add. Very important.
Whenever any forum member is mentioned by name, we should make it obligatory to use the @ so and so facility. to alert the mentioned member. The @ facility is sometimes sluggish.
The like button should be removed. The 'liker' can instead add a few lines at least to explain, what he /she liked!
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ganesh_mourthy
- Posts: 1380
- Joined: 02 Sep 2007, 23:08
Re: A mod's musings
General discussion alone can have a word limit . Others for now need not . That can help refrain folks from non stop marathon rambling . Even a 5 hours gap for general discussion will fizzle out the heat . I don't know if it is feasible to program but it will work. That spiteful urge to strike back fill die out .
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RSR
- Posts: 3427
- Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31
Re: A mod's musings
@8
@ganesh_mourthy
Good idea to limit the word count in General discussion alone. A compromise solution.
I am now preparing a list of thousands of topics in General discussion with links, So many topics and posts which should have been posted in other sections are buried there.
Being a moderator and admin of a forum like this is not an easy job. Best left to senior people with enough energy and objectivity and time. This cannot be a job for full time professionals who have tremendous work load. And above all, the moderator like a judge, should just see to it that forum rules are followed and nothing more. The moderator can have one's own personal likes and dislikes but he can air them in his own name and not in the role of moderator.
Some wounds never heal. And should not be left to be healed by time. by any self-respecting person. The urge to strike back is not 'spiteful' It is a mark of spirit and courage of conviction.
@ganesh_mourthy
Good idea to limit the word count in General discussion alone. A compromise solution.
I am now preparing a list of thousands of topics in General discussion with links, So many topics and posts which should have been posted in other sections are buried there.
Being a moderator and admin of a forum like this is not an easy job. Best left to senior people with enough energy and objectivity and time. This cannot be a job for full time professionals who have tremendous work load. And above all, the moderator like a judge, should just see to it that forum rules are followed and nothing more. The moderator can have one's own personal likes and dislikes but he can air them in his own name and not in the role of moderator.
Some wounds never heal. And should not be left to be healed by time. by any self-respecting person. The urge to strike back is not 'spiteful' It is a mark of spirit and courage of conviction.
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Ramasubramanian M.K
- Posts: 1226
- Joined: 05 May 2009, 08:33
Re: A mod's musings
Dear Rasikasmoderator#2: Thanks for your kind remarks. Unfortunately for a Digital Neanderthal like me I need more hand-holding than normally intelligent people would require. I NEED more than that.
I thought I had saved the post but I cannot find it any place. Apparently it is lost in Cyberspace.!!
What happens after I click on Save draft which is what I did! Now I am not able to trace it!!
I thought I had saved the post but I cannot find it any place. Apparently it is lost in Cyberspace.!!
What happens after I click on Save draft which is what I did! Now I am not able to trace it!!
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ganesh_mourthy
- Posts: 1380
- Joined: 02 Sep 2007, 23:08
Re: A mod's musings
Limiting the word count in general discussion is not like shutting the shop, but to make sure that to in order to have a lengthy substantive discussion we need to go to relevant topic. If we look at the general topic , almost all the discussions can fit into some other categories. General discussion can be a pointer , sign board , or for minimalism and we should self moderate the discussion, where we feel that this topic does not fit precisely anywhere and does not carry too much significance. .
If someone wants to discuss a general topic at lengths , then he should move it to relevant thala, review, etc
This in no way is going to be compromising. We are sometimes tempted to post everything in general topic hoping that this talking shop is where all assembles.
I really appreciate the mods sustaining some rubbish and their cautious restrained slap on the wrist , but that is not easy . However it also leaves a bad taste in the mouth every-time which even the mods may not like, however they are helpless at times when it goes beyond limit where they had to step up .
general discussion rules,
1. word limit
2. post limit under a single thread- a forum member can have 5 posts, so he / she knows it has to be something of substance.
3. 50 posts maximum under a thread ( is there anything more than that in a general discussion )
I think the first and second will make this forum wonderful.
**** When there is no spite , no anger , and there is no way one particular thread coudl be moved to any other, and seems really insightful , then the mods can , at his discretion extend the limit. But that should be rare. 99 percent shoudl find to fit in somewhere else when then is some consensus arrived on what category it is .
GM
I
If someone wants to discuss a general topic at lengths , then he should move it to relevant thala, review, etc
This in no way is going to be compromising. We are sometimes tempted to post everything in general topic hoping that this talking shop is where all assembles.
I really appreciate the mods sustaining some rubbish and their cautious restrained slap on the wrist , but that is not easy . However it also leaves a bad taste in the mouth every-time which even the mods may not like, however they are helpless at times when it goes beyond limit where they had to step up .
general discussion rules,
1. word limit
2. post limit under a single thread- a forum member can have 5 posts, so he / she knows it has to be something of substance.
3. 50 posts maximum under a thread ( is there anything more than that in a general discussion )
I think the first and second will make this forum wonderful.
**** When there is no spite , no anger , and there is no way one particular thread coudl be moved to any other, and seems really insightful , then the mods can , at his discretion extend the limit. But that should be rare. 99 percent shoudl find to fit in somewhere else when then is some consensus arrived on what category it is .
GM
I
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RSR
- Posts: 3427
- Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31
Re: A mod's musings
@11
Sometimes, it is rather difficult to decide on the proper section.
For example,
we need more tamil songs
87 posts
3457 views as on 21-12-2019
begun on 16-2-2019
About 100 tamil songs of 1940-1960 plate music era
in as many ragams. with youtube links
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=32722
No commentary except ragam,composer and singer information.
Almost single-handedly by me. Which other section will be suitable for that thread?
on 7-9-2019 -> 2238 and on 21-12-2019 -> 3457
----------------------------------------
Another thread
Famous ragamalikas of plate music era
34 posts? ( almost all 34 posts done by me)
1188 views
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=33386
714 views on 7-9-2019
---------
I believe that the two threads are liked by visitors.
May I suggest that 'toics' in 'General Discussion' should be numbered?
Sometimes, it is rather difficult to decide on the proper section.
For example,
we need more tamil songs
87 posts
3457 views as on 21-12-2019
begun on 16-2-2019
About 100 tamil songs of 1940-1960 plate music era
in as many ragams. with youtube links
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=32722
No commentary except ragam,composer and singer information.
Almost single-handedly by me. Which other section will be suitable for that thread?
on 7-9-2019 -> 2238 and on 21-12-2019 -> 3457
----------------------------------------
Another thread
Famous ragamalikas of plate music era
34 posts? ( almost all 34 posts done by me)
1188 views
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=33386
714 views on 7-9-2019
---------
I believe that the two threads are liked by visitors.
May I suggest that 'toics' in 'General Discussion' should be numbered?
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shankarank
- Posts: 4194
- Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16
Re: A mod's musings
Ah! From discussion on format of concerts to reformatting the forum! 
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Nick H
- Posts: 9454
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
Re: A mod's musings
It should not be forgotten that the spirit and purpose of a forum is conversation. Whether the conversation is deeply academic or fairly social, flow and content is hampered by long time limits between posts, restriction on number of posts and word count.
I do agree about the instance-response thing in heated conversations. Been there (and here) and done that many times, and regretted it more than a few times. This is just personal lessons in life to learn, and, young or old, we all have lessons to learn.
I do agree about the instance-response thing in heated conversations. Been there (and here) and done that many times, and regretted it more than a few times. This is just personal lessons in life to learn, and, young or old, we all have lessons to learn.
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RasikasModerator2
- Posts: 151
- Joined: 27 Aug 2018, 21:02
Re: A mod's musings
We might make some improvements to the layout, like bringing the requests section up (We've been saying that for a while, but paucity of time hinders us). But no 500 word limit or any such thing. The facility given here is supposed to encourage in depth discussion, which cannot happen on FB (even if it does, it is forgotten tomorrow). These band aids don't fix the root issue of closing derailed threads which is actually at your end. We can change the forum all you want, who will change you? You need to solve yourselves. Word limits and all that will only restrict us severely. We don't want to do that.
General discussions isn't going anywhere. There are just too many topics that can't be properly categorized. And if these topics where somewhere else, they wouldn't get the visibility - by far GD is the most viewed section compared to all others combined. We sometimes let a good thread brew in GD before shifting it when we think it has got stagnant. We will still leave a shadow topic in GD though for visibility that will redirect you to the new section.
I must say, compared to last year and the one before that or the early years of the forum, the harder days are behind us. Coming in to moderate once a while is hardly a burden and we like the job.
I'll share an evil secret here. Often we even find some of the mischief you all do thoroughly entertaining. Some of it is hilarious and sensational stuff. It keeps this place from becoming boring. But unfortunately it quickly gets bitter, uncivil and really nasty just after that and we have no choice but to press the lock button. After a spare of nasty threads a couple of years back, and numerous complaints, we made ourselves very strict about this. The line is too thin.
We don't want to turn this place into some place like reddit or YT comments, although YT invites maximum comments from all and sundry. Quality over quantity
We also have to limit some stories just in case some of the people you talk about get angry and come after us. As a result a lot of juicy stuff that everyone talks privately doesn't make it here.
But the hardest thing for us is dealing with the demise or ill health of many senior rasikas who contributed a lot, or some of the best of us stopping to post. That has been irreplaceable.
Above all we want to become an archive of music resources out there for the benefit of the music community in the long run, something that cannot be achieved by social media. For this all of us have to contribute to the music in our own ways. Closing a thread just prevents it from developing into something of lasting value.
General discussions isn't going anywhere. There are just too many topics that can't be properly categorized. And if these topics where somewhere else, they wouldn't get the visibility - by far GD is the most viewed section compared to all others combined. We sometimes let a good thread brew in GD before shifting it when we think it has got stagnant. We will still leave a shadow topic in GD though for visibility that will redirect you to the new section.
I must say, compared to last year and the one before that or the early years of the forum, the harder days are behind us. Coming in to moderate once a while is hardly a burden and we like the job.
I'll share an evil secret here. Often we even find some of the mischief you all do thoroughly entertaining. Some of it is hilarious and sensational stuff. It keeps this place from becoming boring. But unfortunately it quickly gets bitter, uncivil and really nasty just after that and we have no choice but to press the lock button. After a spare of nasty threads a couple of years back, and numerous complaints, we made ourselves very strict about this. The line is too thin.
We don't want to turn this place into some place like reddit or YT comments, although YT invites maximum comments from all and sundry. Quality over quantity
We also have to limit some stories just in case some of the people you talk about get angry and come after us. As a result a lot of juicy stuff that everyone talks privately doesn't make it here.
But the hardest thing for us is dealing with the demise or ill health of many senior rasikas who contributed a lot, or some of the best of us stopping to post. That has been irreplaceable.
Above all we want to become an archive of music resources out there for the benefit of the music community in the long run, something that cannot be achieved by social media. For this all of us have to contribute to the music in our own ways. Closing a thread just prevents it from developing into something of lasting value.
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RSR
- Posts: 3427
- Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31
Re: A mod's musings
------Above all we want to become an archive of music resources out there for the benefit of the music community in the long run
Regrettably, almost all the music links in many discussion sections are DEAD.
Fortunately, many dedicated rasikas like
Raju Asokan, shankar Rajasekaran and others are uploading quite a few classics of the GOLDEN ERA. through YT.
Let us share music , not trivia
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RSR
- Posts: 3427
- Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31
Re: A mod's musings
locking the recent thread on tmk stuff is most unfair. Actually, there was no digression. Is a reference to the English Bard, a violation? .. The point was if raga elaboration, swarams and niravals , RTP alone were pure music, ( it is indeed so), why then so many lyrical compositions by the Trinity and 'literary' analysis, translations and discussions and controversies about the theme? CM is definitely centered around devotional music and lyrics then play a central part... And let us not look down upon 78 rpm records. of those early years. The closing comment was RUDE.
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shankarank
- Posts: 4194
- Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16
Re: A mod's musings
Well then we should not look down upon sabha music as well. Same thing applies. Most of great music and my knowledge comes from listening to recordings from collectors (later day) and 78 RPMs played in the temple while growing up. It is not like I don't know their worth. They have not stated why they closed that thread. Go on a sabbatical , spend your time visiting sabhas including the near empty ones sometimes. You can then criticise!
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RSR
- Posts: 3427
- Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31
Re: A mod's musings
What - if one is not interested in contemporary concerts? Can we get vintage classics by attending sabhas now? We can listen to a lot of mp3 uploads, cd's, video-clips of music only -of all the great musicians of Carnatic Summer'. Why should we bother to attend concerts then?
When a thread is locked, the mod has to cite the specific offensive or unrelated post and give a chance to the post to be edited/ deleted.
When a thread is locked, the mod has to cite the specific offensive or unrelated post and give a chance to the post to be edited/ deleted.
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sureshvv
- Posts: 5542
- Joined: 05 Jul 2007, 18:17
Re: A mod's musings
I don't think you should worry about "derailed" threads. That is being too trigger-happy. Only intervene when personal insults fly or people use unparliamentary language.
One (wo)man's sharing may be another's noise.High time we got honest here about how we feel, after yet another thread locked up. More music, more sharing, and less noise please.
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RSR
- Posts: 3427
- Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31
Re: A mod's musings
Ah! On the topic of the Bard(Avon), someone seems to be listening.
https://sriramv.wordpress.com/2020/01/0 ... n-english/
P.G.W ( P.G.WODEHOUSE)
-----------------------------
---------------------------------------
And the 'Royal We!'.
Does it strike a chord?
https://sriramv.wordpress.com/2020/01/0 ... n-english/
(emphasis mine)Lastly, he is also aware that not everyone can be flawless in English. Even the husband of Shakespeare’s wife was not perfect as you know, or his plays cannot be full of strange words such as abroach, gaby and guffin. As the Perhaps Greatest Writer once wrote, half the time Shakespeare just put in whatever came into his mind.
P.G.W ( P.G.WODEHOUSE)
-----------------------------
(!)Musical discussions
---------------------------------------
And the 'Royal We!'.
Does it strike a chord?