hi all, i'm back! first let me thank you all for responding so well.
ok here is my next question.
Why not make 1 standard shape and 3 standard sizes for a jackwood veenai. just one shape (round or oval or whatever it may be) for resonator and dhundi but in 3 standard sizes that is small, medium and large? It would be easier to make the additional stuff like the serpant’s grip (napasasam), lungar, bridge and the meru in 3 different standard sizes other than taking the measurement for them and getting it done specially. If this is achievable, then, it would be easier to get it from a shop like saptaswara, mylapore, in chennai as a finished product in 3 different sizes. When the strings of any stringed instrument are easily available in the market then why not these?
well i do realize that my grandfather, Veenai Maestro Padmabushan Dr.S.Balachander, (the first in many things and the best in all that he did) did so much for the veenai that none has even thought of. to name a very few,
he was the first to have thought of
1 various innovations for pickup and lastly decided on magnetic pickup.
2 flat wire wound chrome-steel German electric guitar and bass guitar strings with extra length for the 3rd, 4th and 5th strings of the veenai
he was the first to have the following made specially for him.
1 open type serpant's grip or nagapasam in stainless steel (open type so that lungar can be added or removed from it whenever necessary)
2 rings which are hooked to the hook type lungar in silver,
3 hook type lungar in stainless steel (hook type meaning the end of the lungar had a hook fitted to it because it was tough to get strings with rings on them unlike now and each time a string got cut in a concert, usually on the meru side because the pulling is done mostly in the pit area or peg box area, it was tough and time consuming for him to change strings and fix them on a ring type lungar so he got the strings in bulk like 500 or even more sometimes and got the rings fitted to each of them in advance through an instrument called vice and so he would just fix another string with a ready made ring in it to the hook type lungar and very much later he would cut the ring from the cut string (because the ring is in silver) and would fix it in some other string using the vice which was any day easier than cutting the string from the ring shaped lungar and inserting another to it which is more difficult, time consuming and also annoying if happens while in the midst of a stage performance!)
4 bridge of the veenai in a hard transparent thermoplastic acrylic called perspex ideally used for making windows of aircraft (which a few have tried recently for the melam of veenai, i may be wrong, please dont mistake me, i got this info only by word of mouth.)
5 frets and meru in stainless steel,
6 the rod on which the strings rest (inside the pit) and usually from where the string is tied to the peg screw at this end and the lungar at the other end in stainless steel,
7 removable sorekai in aluminium,
8 removable yazhi in jackwood,
9 a specially made rexine cover for travel purposes
10 a specially made veena case in fibre for traveling abroad (where he could remove the sorekai, brdais and yazhi and keep them seperately so that the resonator cum dhundi can be kept in the case)
some of his other innovations are,
1 araku melam veenai, (the melam of the veenai was mainly done from mixture of wax, cunglium, etc and a new addition of laquer)
2 maram melam veenai (the melam of the veenai usually done in wax, was mainly set in maram or wood when the veenai was made. appropriate gaps were left for the insertion of the meru and 24 frets which were done using wax)
3 veenai called monoblock veenai (the whole veenai excluding the brdais and the yazhi) including the sorekai was made using one block of rosewood.
So my questions are,
1 why not movable frets in a jackwood veenai?
2 why not something other than wax for melam?
3 why not standard size veenais and standard sizes for nagapasam, lungar, bridge, meru, frets etc?
new ideas on veenai innovation needed part 2
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srikant1987
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baradu2
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good question sir, but actually, indian music especially carnatic music cannot be sung or played without gamakas. and to bring out the beauty of the ragam in veenai, we have to pull at the fretboard and play, unlike violin or guitar or mandolin where gamakam is attained by sliding and playing. this is because veena has 24 frets, big fretboard, big bridge and the instrument is big and heavy unlike guitar or mandolin or violin. a fretless instrument like the gottu vadhyam has to be played by sliding to bring out the gamakam. western music is well known for the chord progressions and pulling has a very small role in western music. if the strings are kept in reverse order, pulling is impossible. and if you dont pull and play shankarabaranam then it will not be shankarabaranam but just plain notes of the melakartha scale.
and for the thala string, veenai is the one and only southindian instrument which has a provision for thalam. if used well then a whole concert can be played without accompaniment by just using the thalam strings.
and for the thala string, veenai is the one and only southindian instrument which has a provision for thalam. if used well then a whole concert can be played without accompaniment by just using the thalam strings.
Last edited by baradu2 on 02 Oct 2009, 10:19, edited 1 time in total.
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Radhika-Rajnarayan
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Srikant1987 - why not reverse order of strings- this is the question that occurred to me when I saw the sitar at close quarters. Also, not only is the main string which is extensively used, the one furthest away from the body (in the sitar), but also, the strings are much closer together, so there is a much wider space beyond this string, to enable nice deep meends. Now see the last string of our veena -you barely pull and it goes right out of the fretboard. Even Sri Balachander's veena although slightly better, did not have this level of freedom to pull. This is mainly because of the gap between strings. They can be safely reduced even with the current order of strings.
Why do anything to the taala strings? they can remain as they are. But reversing the order of the main playing strings would require a re-learning of the technique - would our vainikas be willing to do that? With the experience we have had for 30 years in the way the electronic tambura was received - it took 15 years or more for it to be widely used; the Talometer (still faces resistance!); and of course, the resistance to the electronic veena, even more to the digital veena - I can safely say 'I doubt it'!
Baradu - Movable frets in an acoustic veena can be incorporated once they are accepted - however, both acrylic and wooden melam are not suitable. They do not allow easy re-positioning of the frets. In fact the earliest electric veena (1971) had the wooden melam which continued into the electronic veena in 1987 - but we found that when the melam goes out of tune, it's a difficult job to reset it. We needed to chisel out the wood, remove the fret, and re-create the seating for the new position. Pretty 'painful'. Perhaps, the Raghunatha Naik veena that we use today, was developed with wax frets as the best possible solution at the time. After a lot of thought, we have come up with the correct engineering solution for this problem - adjustable frets using nuts.
Standardisation of the various parts of the acoustic veena, scientific and effective mass-manufacturing methods - these are matters that need to be addressed in a dispassionate manner by the manufacturers, without getting bogged down by so-called 'traditional' methods and various superstitions.
As the Buddha said- 'question everything, even my teachings'. Only then can we move forward.
Why do anything to the taala strings? they can remain as they are. But reversing the order of the main playing strings would require a re-learning of the technique - would our vainikas be willing to do that? With the experience we have had for 30 years in the way the electronic tambura was received - it took 15 years or more for it to be widely used; the Talometer (still faces resistance!); and of course, the resistance to the electronic veena, even more to the digital veena - I can safely say 'I doubt it'!
Baradu - Movable frets in an acoustic veena can be incorporated once they are accepted - however, both acrylic and wooden melam are not suitable. They do not allow easy re-positioning of the frets. In fact the earliest electric veena (1971) had the wooden melam which continued into the electronic veena in 1987 - but we found that when the melam goes out of tune, it's a difficult job to reset it. We needed to chisel out the wood, remove the fret, and re-create the seating for the new position. Pretty 'painful'. Perhaps, the Raghunatha Naik veena that we use today, was developed with wax frets as the best possible solution at the time. After a lot of thought, we have come up with the correct engineering solution for this problem - adjustable frets using nuts.
Standardisation of the various parts of the acoustic veena, scientific and effective mass-manufacturing methods - these are matters that need to be addressed in a dispassionate manner by the manufacturers, without getting bogged down by so-called 'traditional' methods and various superstitions.
As the Buddha said- 'question everything, even my teachings'. Only then can we move forward.
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baradu2
- Posts: 39
- Joined: 28 Jun 2009, 09:37
well, radhika madam, i still feel it is not easy to play in the veenai with strings in reverse order. it would be impossible to pull unless if it is a gottuvadhyam where gamakam is attained by sliding. as you very rightly said, we have been trained to play in one particular manner and are unable to accept new techniques. i heard that there was great critizism when grandpa introduced pickups and german guitar peg screws and perspex bridge for veena. "the original sound of veena is lost" was the opinion of the majority of peolpe. but now, almost all vainikas use guitar peg screws and pickus (and that too imported and not indian). at one time, when floppy discs were used to store data none thought that it would soon become outdated stuff and that CDs pendrives external hard drives, mp3 players and ipods would replace them. changes always happen and will always happen. it cant be stopped from happening. i guess i just have to accept it as it comes. i tried reversing the strings in an accoustic guitar. that is also impossible, in the sense that you can reverse the strings and set it but only carnatic musicians who know to play the veenai and the guitar would be able to understand and play.but if it would be possible to make order a special guitar with curved frets like in the sitar (or a gap should be there in the middle of the board like in the veena and that is where the wax is set) and bridge and meru in such a mannor that i have a fretboard with the capacity of setting 6 or even 7 strings but only 4 or 5 should be set, then in that case it would give me more than enough space to pull and play.
Last edited by baradu2 on 02 Oct 2009, 11:24, edited 1 time in total.
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uday_shankar
- Posts: 1467
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A chronic problem with the vina fretting is the inequality of R2 played on the panchama and the R2 played on the Sarani.
While the stringent requirements of panchama dictate that the 7th fret produce a perfect fifth it also means that the R2 on the panchama string is at 9/8. On the other hand, the second fret on the sArani produces the slightly lower 10/9. This also keeps the D2 on the panchama in tune with just intonation 5/3.
Similar cases may be made for other notes. Fretless instruments like the chitravina and violin bypass all these difficulties.
I suspect most Carnatic listeners would not notice if the vina frets were placed in equal temperament but something vital certainly gets lost with equal temperament.
A simple solution to sidestep these small discrepancies across strings (and avoid the devil of equal temperament) is to keep the open first string as Pa and the fifth fret (currently Ma) as the Sa and decide on suiatable fretting. Most of the songs could then be played on a single string. Having the fifth fret as Sa is the case currently for madhyama shruti so it shouldn't be difficult for vina players to make the switch for all songs. The panchama string can then be tuned to say, Ma instead of Pa, for playing lower notes. The sitar has a similar arrangement. The idea of having movable frets was foreseen by the sitar a few centuries before Radel's Sunadavinodini. Unfortunately south India is a land of set ideas (usually set on immovable wax!), preconceived notions and a total lack of scientific rigor. It is a land where one could create a "sacred tradition" out of any sub-optimal, unscientific practice.
Another problem that should be addressed is the separation of the point of attachment of the tAla strings from the rest of the strings. This is because everytime the players pull too much on the Sarani for a particular gamakam while at the same time strumming the tAla strings with the little finger, the latter sound out of tune (even if it is a Balachander pulling it...it's in the physics of it). The best solution is to totally separate the tAla string bridge and also have a totally separate ring-like attachment at the back of the kodam to attach the tAla strings to. Perhaps radel can market it as a "new" feature.
While the stringent requirements of panchama dictate that the 7th fret produce a perfect fifth it also means that the R2 on the panchama string is at 9/8. On the other hand, the second fret on the sArani produces the slightly lower 10/9. This also keeps the D2 on the panchama in tune with just intonation 5/3.
Similar cases may be made for other notes. Fretless instruments like the chitravina and violin bypass all these difficulties.
I suspect most Carnatic listeners would not notice if the vina frets were placed in equal temperament but something vital certainly gets lost with equal temperament.
A simple solution to sidestep these small discrepancies across strings (and avoid the devil of equal temperament) is to keep the open first string as Pa and the fifth fret (currently Ma) as the Sa and decide on suiatable fretting. Most of the songs could then be played on a single string. Having the fifth fret as Sa is the case currently for madhyama shruti so it shouldn't be difficult for vina players to make the switch for all songs. The panchama string can then be tuned to say, Ma instead of Pa, for playing lower notes. The sitar has a similar arrangement. The idea of having movable frets was foreseen by the sitar a few centuries before Radel's Sunadavinodini. Unfortunately south India is a land of set ideas (usually set on immovable wax!), preconceived notions and a total lack of scientific rigor. It is a land where one could create a "sacred tradition" out of any sub-optimal, unscientific practice.
Another problem that should be addressed is the separation of the point of attachment of the tAla strings from the rest of the strings. This is because everytime the players pull too much on the Sarani for a particular gamakam while at the same time strumming the tAla strings with the little finger, the latter sound out of tune (even if it is a Balachander pulling it...it's in the physics of it). The best solution is to totally separate the tAla string bridge and also have a totally separate ring-like attachment at the back of the kodam to attach the tAla strings to. Perhaps radel can market it as a "new" feature
.
Last edited by Guest on 02 Oct 2009, 11:43, edited 1 time in total.
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srinivasrgvn
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Radhika-Rajnarayan
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The problem of inequality (not only of R2 but more glaringly, G2 on the second string and G2 on the 1st) etc and the other problem of the panchama string pitch rising when pulling gamakams are effected on the 1st string - I even asked Balachander Sir, and he said 'nothing at all can be done about this' - these were some of the problems that led to the development of the digital veena.Uday_Shankar wrote:A chronic problem with the vina fretting is the inequality of R2 played on the panchama and the R2 played on the Sarani.
While the stringent requirements of panchama dictate that the 7th fret produce a perfect fifth it also means that the R2 on the panchama string is at 9/8. On the other hand, the second fret on the sArani produces the slightly lower 10/9. This also keeps the D2 on the panchama in tune with just intonation 5/3.
Similar cases may be made for other notes. Fretless instruments like the chitravina and violin bypass all these difficulties.
I suspect most Carnatic listeners would not notice if the vina frets were placed in equal temperament but something vital certainly gets lost with equal temperament.
The purity of every note (all in just intonation, not chromatic), regardless of the string, pitch, gamakam-pull-- has to be experienced. Even playing plain notes on the digital veena gives me a soothing pleasure that is a result of absolute purity of swarasthaanam. There are many who feel the digital veena sound is closer to the acoustic veena (it has sampled acoustic veena sound) and there are yet others who prefer the electronic veena.
Many of the issues unresolved by the electronic veena have been addressed successfully by the digital veena: perfect tuning of all 7 strings to any pitch selected, no change or corruption in pitch while playing (thus no requirement for frequent re-tuning), purity of swarasthaanam, and the option of even placing the frets as close as required or as wide as required (say, for instance having a 2.5 ft fretboard for a child learning, or an extra long one for a tall, big-made person) - anything is possible. And with just a little practise one can play the digital veena as freely as an acoustic one - this too because one needs to adjust oneself to the high sensitivity of the response of the instrument.
Listening to the digital veena, people are quick to make snap judgements and even loose comments - they want to hear the exact reproduction of the acoustic veena - not even realising that the sound produced is that from a 'synthesizer' like a 'Casio' or Yamaha keyboard.
I will upload a recording at the earliest.
Again, as Baradu says - we have to live with the disappointment of the response of vainikas to this instrument. Maybe the next generation will appreciate the unbelievable amount of research that has gone into this, a marathon effort of 5 years even before the rudimentary technology-proving demonstration in 2002, and a further 5 years of perfecting. It is an ongoing process.
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uday_shankar
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Radhika-ji,
I totally applaud your efforts in electronic instrument design I am sorry that the acceptance level has been sub-optimal. However, it would be nice if a parallel effort were also constantly under way to perfect the acoustic instrument, not necessarily by Radel but by the musician/craftsman community as was done by Balachander sir.
Our musicians and craftsmen would be astounded at the amount of empirical research that's always going on in trying to improve the intonation, tone, playing comfort, etc of acoustic instruments like the flute, oboe, bassoon, etc.... In fact, whole generations of players have changed techniques or learned new ones in order to take advantage of an improved instrument design.
A you say, we must question the Buddha too and in that spirit I question Balachander sir's observation that "nothing can be done"! I think "something" can be done to remove the sArani-tension-change induced drift of the tAla thanthis by isolating their bridge and anchor points to a different part of the kodam. I think I'm going to patent that idea.
Perhaps the problem is that the essence of our music can be conveyed adequately even if the instruments of delivery, including the voice, are less than perfect. This must be contrasted with the amount of perfection that went into the making of a guitar and the production of a recording of any run of the mill rock/pop album. So we must not get too carried away by the pursuit of perfection.
Also, the "electronic" or "digital" step is a giant leap compared to any amount of acoustic tinkering. For example, even if you use the most modern materials and tools to make an acoustic instrument, it is not too far removed conceptually from say, the one played by Dhikshitar. So the appeal of acoustics instruments will always remain.
I totally applaud your efforts in electronic instrument design I am sorry that the acceptance level has been sub-optimal. However, it would be nice if a parallel effort were also constantly under way to perfect the acoustic instrument, not necessarily by Radel but by the musician/craftsman community as was done by Balachander sir.
Our musicians and craftsmen would be astounded at the amount of empirical research that's always going on in trying to improve the intonation, tone, playing comfort, etc of acoustic instruments like the flute, oboe, bassoon, etc.... In fact, whole generations of players have changed techniques or learned new ones in order to take advantage of an improved instrument design.
A you say, we must question the Buddha too and in that spirit I question Balachander sir's observation that "nothing can be done"! I think "something" can be done to remove the sArani-tension-change induced drift of the tAla thanthis by isolating their bridge and anchor points to a different part of the kodam. I think I'm going to patent that idea
.Perhaps the problem is that the essence of our music can be conveyed adequately even if the instruments of delivery, including the voice, are less than perfect. This must be contrasted with the amount of perfection that went into the making of a guitar and the production of a recording of any run of the mill rock/pop album. So we must not get too carried away by the pursuit of perfection.
Also, the "electronic" or "digital" step is a giant leap compared to any amount of acoustic tinkering. For example, even if you use the most modern materials and tools to make an acoustic instrument, it is not too far removed conceptually from say, the one played by Dhikshitar. So the appeal of acoustics instruments will always remain.
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Radhika-Rajnarayan
- Posts: 289
- Joined: 27 Jun 2009, 20:18
The digital veena does exactly that. There are 2 different sets of 'strings'(sensors) - one set for plucking and another set for playing on the frets. There is an extra 'bridge' in the middle, where these 2 sets are anchored separately.Uday_Shankar wrote:
A you say, we must question the Buddha too and in that spirit I question Balachander sir's observation that "nothing can be done"! I think "something" can be done to remove the sArani-tension-change induced drift of the tAla thanthis by isolating their bridge and anchor points to a different part of the kodam. I think I'm going to patent that idea
The digital veena with all these ideas is already patented
I wish there were more forward-looking people like you, to take these ideas further. Basically we should look at improving the music content. I am sure that even the present day acoustic veena is quite different and perhaps acoustically better than Dikshitar's. Just as the music itself today is better than, say, early 20th century. It HAS to be, how can it be otherwise? Mankind is constantly evolving and improving in every way in every field - science, medicine, engineering AND ART of all types.
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maduraiveeran
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- Joined: 16 Sep 2008, 20:41
hello all,
It is great to see a good discussion on this ancient instrument. It is very obvious that veena has undergone some serious "evolution" to get into what is now know as "saraswathi veena". As vainika pointed out, at some point it becomes a personal choice regarding how your veena should sound. While modern technology allows one to do a lot of innovations, i feel that nowadays the problem mostly lies in the "construction" part of a veena. I suggest that older veenas (say > 60 years) should be thoroughly analyzed using modern scientific equipments ( Especially, if they have a wonderful naadham).This should be interms of the choice of wood, proportion etc. ( are there scientific methods available to distinguish the traditional jack fruit wood to other woods?) My personal observation is the thickness of the wood in the kudam is much less in the older veenas compared to the newer ones! I dont know why that is! May be thicker wood avoids cracks as the veena ages? no idea! Sitar for instance, is much lighter compared to veena. May be one can borrow some fine ideas from sitar makers.
It is great to see a good discussion on this ancient instrument. It is very obvious that veena has undergone some serious "evolution" to get into what is now know as "saraswathi veena". As vainika pointed out, at some point it becomes a personal choice regarding how your veena should sound. While modern technology allows one to do a lot of innovations, i feel that nowadays the problem mostly lies in the "construction" part of a veena. I suggest that older veenas (say > 60 years) should be thoroughly analyzed using modern scientific equipments ( Especially, if they have a wonderful naadham).This should be interms of the choice of wood, proportion etc. ( are there scientific methods available to distinguish the traditional jack fruit wood to other woods?) My personal observation is the thickness of the wood in the kudam is much less in the older veenas compared to the newer ones! I dont know why that is! May be thicker wood avoids cracks as the veena ages? no idea! Sitar for instance, is much lighter compared to veena. May be one can borrow some fine ideas from sitar makers.
Last edited by maduraiveeran on 07 Oct 2009, 23:10, edited 1 time in total.
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Nick H
- Posts: 9382
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
Sitar is based on a gourd, and so has much less wood --- and is quite a lot smaller too.
I think that deep scientific analysis is still not revealing the secrets of the world's best violins (wasn't a recent suggestion that it was the varnish that was the secret?) so the veena would probably resist such probing too. Of course --- no harm in trying!
I think that deep scientific analysis is still not revealing the secrets of the world's best violins (wasn't a recent suggestion that it was the varnish that was the secret?) so the veena would probably resist such probing too. Of course --- no harm in trying!
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Radhika-Rajnarayan
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- Joined: 27 Jun 2009, 20:18
The Thickness of the wood is inversely proportional to the volume produced by the kudam. That is why in older veenas or even newer ones that have been carved to a very thin layer, the naadam is much better.maduraiveeran wrote:
My personal observation is the thickness of the wood in the kudam is much less in the older veenas compared to the newer ones! I dont know why that is! May be thicker wood avoids cracks as the veena ages? no idea! Sitar for instance, is much lighter compared to veena. May be one can borrow some fine ideas from sitar makers.
In fact there is a view (superstition? based on fact?) that a veena that is broken and rejoined gives out a better naadam (provided the joining has been done correctly of course).
My own 2 acoustic veenas show this difference in naadam. One veena is a blackwood veena, custom made for my grandmother in the 1930's in Chennai, no ornamentation whatever, and is one of 3 pieces made in this way. I know that another piece was supplied to Queen Mary's college. The 3rd? Don't know. The other is a tanjavur veena made for my mother, in the late 30's - smaller in size, but heavier (due to thicker kudam) - this veena does not have the deep naadam of my other veena.
The blackwood veena had a bad accident in the '50's. Fell off the upper berth of a train (unavoidable circumstance to put it there in the first place - long story), broke into many pieces and was expertly repaired by an artisan in Bombay. It still has the fine cracks visible if you look carefully.
This blackwood veena has a superb naadam. It is lighter than the smaller tanjavur veena. Emani Sankara Sastri liked the sound of this veena so much that he used it for one of his National programmes in the '60s. ( Played Paramaatmudu in Vaagadeeswari - unforgettable!). However, I really can't say what the better naadam is entirely due to - the thin wall of the kudam (most likely) or the 'broken-and-joined' theory.
As an aside - the cost of these veenas - the blackwood one - Rs.15/- and the Tanjavur one Rs.30/-(due to the ivory work etc). Unbelievable!!
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ramakriya
- Posts: 1876
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Wow! THAT rendition of paramAtmudu is really unforgettable. I got it from Sangeethapriya I think - And is the best rendition of this kriti from any artist I have heard so far.Radhika-Rajnarayan wrote:
Emani Sankara Sastri liked the sound of this veena so much that he used it for one of his National programmes in the '60s. ( Played Paramaatmudu in Vaagadeeswari - unforgettable!).
-Ramakriya
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srikant1987
- Posts: 2246
- Joined: 10 Jun 2007, 12:23
But things were cheaper back then.As an aside - the cost of these veenas - the blackwood one - Rs.15/- and the Tanjavur one Rs.30/-(due to the ivory work etc). Unbelievable!!
Last edited by srikant1987 on 08 Oct 2009, 19:03, edited 1 time in total.
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vasanthakokilam
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vainika
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Thin wood with respect to the bowl of the resonator/kudam/tumba, and a thick(er) plank on the kudam's upper surface, with a central hole - these characterize many of the older veenas I've seen that are light and have excellent nAda.
I also have one datum in support of the 'broken and joined' theory: one of my veenas had a major kudam crack after keeling over from the bed, but now, post-repair, sounds brighter and better than before.
I also have one datum in support of the 'broken and joined' theory: one of my veenas had a major kudam crack after keeling over from the bed, but now, post-repair, sounds brighter and better than before.
Last edited by vainika on 09 Oct 2009, 22:38, edited 1 time in total.
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baradu2
- Posts: 39
- Joined: 28 Jun 2009, 09:37
Radhika-Rajnarayan wrote:Srikant1987 - why not reverse order of strings- this is the question that occurred to me when I saw the sitar at close quarters. Also, not only is the main string which is extensively used, the one furthest away from the body (in the sitar), but also, the strings are much closer together, so there is a much wider space beyond this string, to enable nice deep meends. Now see the last string of our veena -you barely pull and it goes right out of the fretboard. Even Sri Balachander's veena although slightly better, did not have this level of freedom to pull. This is mainly because of the gap between strings. They can be safely reduced even with the current order of strings.
Why do anything to the taala strings? they can remain as they are. But reversing the order of the main playing strings would require a re-learning of the technique - would our vainikas be willing to do that? With the experience we have had for 30 years in the way the electronic tambura was received - it took 15 years or more for it to be widely used; the Talometer (still faces resistance!); and of course, the resistance to the electronic veena, even more to the digital veena - I can safely say 'I doubt it'!
Baradu - Movable frets in an acoustic veena can be incorporated once they are accepted - however, both acrylic and wooden melam are not suitable. They do not allow easy re-positioning of the frets. In fact the earliest electric veena (1971) had the wooden melam which continued into the electronic veena in 1987 - but we found that when the melam goes out of tune, it's a difficult job to reset it. We needed to chisel out the wood, remove the fret, and re-create the seating for the new position. Pretty 'painful'. Perhaps, the Raghunatha Naik veena that we use today, was developed with wax frets as the best possible solution at the time. After a lot of thought, we have come up with the correct engineering solution for this problem - adjustable frets using nuts.
Standardisation of the various parts of the acoustic veena, scientific and effective mass-manufacturing methods - these are matters that need to be addressed in a dispassionate manner by the manufacturers, without getting bogged down by so-called 'traditional' methods and various superstitions.
As the Buddha said- 'question everything, even my teachings'. Only then can we move forward.
as i said before, my grandfather, had specially made to order fret board and stainless steel frets, meru and bridge etc with extra length for easy pulling. else he could not have achieved 1 octave in 1 pull on the fret board and 1 and 1/2 octaves in the pit, which is any day not possible otherwise.
what i very much appreciate and willingly accept is that it is very much possible in the electronic veena. but is it possible in an acoustic veena? has anyone else tried to do it in an acoustic veena before or after him?
movable frets is an excellent solution to electronic veena. but is it possible in an acoustic veena?
wax is good for acoustic veena but is the wax melam maker good? hehehe !
grandpa's maram melam veena is still in excellent condition. no problem in melam. dont know how its fine here. in grandpa's maram melam veena, appropriate vertical gaps were given in all the 24 places for the frets and they were set with wax. so, between gandharam and madhyamam, 95% of the space is covered with wood and the rest with wax. i still dont find any problem in melam 25 years after it was made (or may be more. not really sure of that. but am sure its more than 20 because its already 19 yrs since he passed away.)
Last edited by baradu2 on 10 Oct 2009, 00:18, edited 1 time in total.
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baradu2
- Posts: 39
- Joined: 28 Jun 2009, 09:37
this has happened to my grandpa also.vainika wrote:Thin wood with respect to the bowl of the resonator/kudam/tumba, and a thick(er) plank on the kudam's upper surface, with a central hole - these characterize many of the older veenas I've seen that are light and have excellent nAda.
I also have one datum in support of the 'broken and joined' theory: one of my veenas had a major kudam crack after keeling over from the bed, but now, post-repair, sounds brighter and better than before.
Last edited by baradu2 on 10 Oct 2009, 00:21, edited 1 time in total.
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baradu2
- Posts: 39
- Joined: 28 Jun 2009, 09:37
well i have a question.
1 why not think of a scientific way to make the acoustic veena itself?
2 from what i heard (dont know still) i came to know that the western guitar has many shapes and sizes like small medium large beginners and professionals.
3 but even though a medium size guitar and a large size guitar are not of same size and shape (its evident in the words) what i heard was 2 large size electric or acoustic guitars made by the same person is gonna have the same shape and size or atleast their fret boadrs. when a guitar can be made to such perfection so much so that they dont need to think of the fret board or the instrument going out of tune after making it, why not try the same in veena?
4 why not make it to accuracy so that we dont have to adjust it left or right with wax.
5 in that case we can very much think of arack or pvc or rubber or powered wood or resin etc for the melam.
1 why not think of a scientific way to make the acoustic veena itself?
2 from what i heard (dont know still) i came to know that the western guitar has many shapes and sizes like small medium large beginners and professionals.
3 but even though a medium size guitar and a large size guitar are not of same size and shape (its evident in the words) what i heard was 2 large size electric or acoustic guitars made by the same person is gonna have the same shape and size or atleast their fret boadrs. when a guitar can be made to such perfection so much so that they dont need to think of the fret board or the instrument going out of tune after making it, why not try the same in veena?
4 why not make it to accuracy so that we dont have to adjust it left or right with wax.
5 in that case we can very much think of arack or pvc or rubber or powered wood or resin etc for the melam.
Last edited by baradu2 on 10 Oct 2009, 00:32, edited 1 time in total.
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Radhika-Rajnarayan
- Posts: 289
- Joined: 27 Jun 2009, 20:18
(1)"Different dandi lengths (consequently changing the distances between frets) is definitely a good idea. Some people have smaller fingers and have difficulty in playing to their full potential because of limited reach across frets. (Also, big people with really big/long fingers may find the current design too cramped.)"
(2)"Regarding differences in the same note when played on two different strings, which came up in this thread, the reasons include differences in linear densities (weight of a given length of string) because of their different thickness and materials, differences in elasticity, and the difference in how gravity works on each of them."
True. These problems are very easily solved in the digital veena - (1) where the position of the fret is immaterial , only the fret number is relevant. This could lead to making veenas of various sizes - baby veena, mid-size, large size, etc.
The 2nd issue also is addressed by the same argument since the relevant fret number on the 2nd string (for example) will generate the same note as the fret for that note on the 1st string. Thus you get a pure antara gandharam on the 2nd string - such a pleasure to hear!
I thank Sri Chandrashekhar for his kind words about Radel.
We could have a detailed discussion on all these. Please do contact me through the forum email.
Best regrads
Radhika Raj Narayan
(2)"Regarding differences in the same note when played on two different strings, which came up in this thread, the reasons include differences in linear densities (weight of a given length of string) because of their different thickness and materials, differences in elasticity, and the difference in how gravity works on each of them."
True. These problems are very easily solved in the digital veena - (1) where the position of the fret is immaterial , only the fret number is relevant. This could lead to making veenas of various sizes - baby veena, mid-size, large size, etc.
The 2nd issue also is addressed by the same argument since the relevant fret number on the 2nd string (for example) will generate the same note as the fret for that note on the 1st string. Thus you get a pure antara gandharam on the 2nd string - such a pleasure to hear!
I thank Sri Chandrashekhar for his kind words about Radel.
We could have a detailed discussion on all these. Please do contact me through the forum email.
Best regrads
Radhika Raj Narayan
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srikant1987
- Posts: 2246
- Joined: 10 Jun 2007, 12:23
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Chandrashekar
- Posts: 34
- Joined: 01 Dec 2009, 14:28
Mr Ramaswamy, thank you for your kind response. Hope you will find my post worth the time spent in reading. Regarding the length, I just hope I have not run out of things to say, having said them all in one breath. But that's okay too; there's plenty to learn here even in silence!
...
A couple of observations additional to my earlier post:
1. I made some remarks regarding tuning the first string to Mandra sthayi Pa. I said that the upper frets would get spaced very closely if we were going all the way to Ati Taara Sa. But on second thoughts, I think we need not go that far. We can simply stop at Taara sthayi Pa. After all, we don't usually play notes higher than that, and if at all necessary, we can pull the string from Taara Pa or from elsewhere as the case may be, as the Sitarists do. That means we just need to retune the Veenai as it is now, and be content that our scale extends only up to Taara sthayi Pa. It will still help to make the top frets narrower to increase finger space, as we will be using them more now.
2. Regarding differences in the same note played on different strings, one more thing we can check for is wear and tear of the strings. The string wears out due to normal playing as well as due to pulling. This can be checked by simply moving a finger under the string and along the length. Most professional guitar players replace their strings after every concert, and some of those string sets cost hundreds of dollars.
The third and fourth strings may not wear out that much, but the lubricants like Vaseline get into the tiny grooves of the winding and dull the sound, which also affects the overall resonance. For those unfamiliar with this, if your third/fourth string is old, try the following: Pluck the string a few times and record the sound. Then take out the string, scrub and wash it thoroughly with water, detergent and a fine brush, then dry it thoroughly in the sun, put it back into the Veenai, tune to the same pitch as before, and pluck it and record the sound again. Compare the recordings and you will find that the string sounds "bright" now, like new, and very different from before.
3. I forgot one important area for standardisation, which could be done immediately and with good results: the strings themselves.
We usually assume that strings are either "good" or "bad" depending on their materials. One variable we overlook is the pitch of tuning. Strings behave differently depending on the tension, and can sound good at one tension while sounding bad at another. Some Vainikas tune their strings to extremely low pitch to reduce the tension and make them easy enough to pull by several notes like with a Sitar; the resulting tonal quality is quite bad (though the players do not seem to realize it, unfortunately, and carry on with their vigorous calisthenics with closed eyes and loud exclamations in private ecstasy.)
We need strings that can give good performance at different pitch (tension) settings. We need strings made of good materials that were selected for things like musical tonality and ease of pulling. There is no reason to assume that stainless steel is the best for every application. We need to do some research on this, using both primary data (our own experiments) and secondary data (information already available).
We must of course make sure the frets are always of harder material than the strings, so that only the strings may wear out during playing, and the frets don't.
...
Ms Radhika, glad to hear from you, and will be glad to discuss all these issues further. I am no expert on anything; just a generalist with general interests.
I got to try out one of your instruments a long time ago, at the Jayanagar showroom in Bangalore. I think it must have been the Sunadavinodini; your digital Veena was in production at that time, and they didn't have it on display yet.
I actually enjoyed the experience with the Sunadavinodini in some ways. I tried out some leisurely alapana with a couple of ghana raagas, mainly Sahana, and the instrument responded quite well to my first touch. Your people, surprisingly, didn't have any lubricant that I could use (they even had no idea what I was talking about), and I think I had to manage without that, which wasn't so good, what with my fingertips already soft because of a long layoff. (Am I the only one who uses things like Vaseline?)
The tone was quite different from that of a Veenai played without amplification. But that didn't bother me too much because I was already used to differences between acoustic and electric guitars, and so on, and one simply assmes that this instrument is different in some ways. It's just a matter of applying a different mindset in each case. Today both the acoustic and the electric guitars have their own places. Maybe we will have to educate our own classical audiences too on what to look for.
I have been lucky to listen to Doreswamy Iyengar playing the Veenai at his home with no amplification, and with his penchant for purity of sruti, I can only describe the music as amazingly sweet, like nectar from Saraswathi herself. I think nothing can beat that. We just have to get used to the fact that these things are "different", like that ad for Maggi ketchup says.
I did have some reservations regarding certain design aspects of that particular instrument, which I would be happy to discuss with you at some time if you are interested. Of course I have not yet had the opportunity to look at your new digital Veenai and would look forward to that too (will remember to bring my own Vaseline this time!).
Best regards.
...
A couple of observations additional to my earlier post:
1. I made some remarks regarding tuning the first string to Mandra sthayi Pa. I said that the upper frets would get spaced very closely if we were going all the way to Ati Taara Sa. But on second thoughts, I think we need not go that far. We can simply stop at Taara sthayi Pa. After all, we don't usually play notes higher than that, and if at all necessary, we can pull the string from Taara Pa or from elsewhere as the case may be, as the Sitarists do. That means we just need to retune the Veenai as it is now, and be content that our scale extends only up to Taara sthayi Pa. It will still help to make the top frets narrower to increase finger space, as we will be using them more now.
2. Regarding differences in the same note played on different strings, one more thing we can check for is wear and tear of the strings. The string wears out due to normal playing as well as due to pulling. This can be checked by simply moving a finger under the string and along the length. Most professional guitar players replace their strings after every concert, and some of those string sets cost hundreds of dollars.
The third and fourth strings may not wear out that much, but the lubricants like Vaseline get into the tiny grooves of the winding and dull the sound, which also affects the overall resonance. For those unfamiliar with this, if your third/fourth string is old, try the following: Pluck the string a few times and record the sound. Then take out the string, scrub and wash it thoroughly with water, detergent and a fine brush, then dry it thoroughly in the sun, put it back into the Veenai, tune to the same pitch as before, and pluck it and record the sound again. Compare the recordings and you will find that the string sounds "bright" now, like new, and very different from before.
3. I forgot one important area for standardisation, which could be done immediately and with good results: the strings themselves.
We usually assume that strings are either "good" or "bad" depending on their materials. One variable we overlook is the pitch of tuning. Strings behave differently depending on the tension, and can sound good at one tension while sounding bad at another. Some Vainikas tune their strings to extremely low pitch to reduce the tension and make them easy enough to pull by several notes like with a Sitar; the resulting tonal quality is quite bad (though the players do not seem to realize it, unfortunately, and carry on with their vigorous calisthenics with closed eyes and loud exclamations in private ecstasy.)
We need strings that can give good performance at different pitch (tension) settings. We need strings made of good materials that were selected for things like musical tonality and ease of pulling. There is no reason to assume that stainless steel is the best for every application. We need to do some research on this, using both primary data (our own experiments) and secondary data (information already available).
We must of course make sure the frets are always of harder material than the strings, so that only the strings may wear out during playing, and the frets don't.
...
Ms Radhika, glad to hear from you, and will be glad to discuss all these issues further. I am no expert on anything; just a generalist with general interests.
I got to try out one of your instruments a long time ago, at the Jayanagar showroom in Bangalore. I think it must have been the Sunadavinodini; your digital Veena was in production at that time, and they didn't have it on display yet.
I actually enjoyed the experience with the Sunadavinodini in some ways. I tried out some leisurely alapana with a couple of ghana raagas, mainly Sahana, and the instrument responded quite well to my first touch. Your people, surprisingly, didn't have any lubricant that I could use (they even had no idea what I was talking about), and I think I had to manage without that, which wasn't so good, what with my fingertips already soft because of a long layoff. (Am I the only one who uses things like Vaseline?)
The tone was quite different from that of a Veenai played without amplification. But that didn't bother me too much because I was already used to differences between acoustic and electric guitars, and so on, and one simply assmes that this instrument is different in some ways. It's just a matter of applying a different mindset in each case. Today both the acoustic and the electric guitars have their own places. Maybe we will have to educate our own classical audiences too on what to look for.
I have been lucky to listen to Doreswamy Iyengar playing the Veenai at his home with no amplification, and with his penchant for purity of sruti, I can only describe the music as amazingly sweet, like nectar from Saraswathi herself. I think nothing can beat that. We just have to get used to the fact that these things are "different", like that ad for Maggi ketchup says.
I did have some reservations regarding certain design aspects of that particular instrument, which I would be happy to discuss with you at some time if you are interested. Of course I have not yet had the opportunity to look at your new digital Veenai and would look forward to that too (will remember to bring my own Vaseline this time!).
Best regards.
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Nick H
- Posts: 9382
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
Chandrashekar, thank you for adding more wonderful material to an already fascinating thread.
One of the nice things about this thread is that it is mostly understandable to us non-musicians, illuminating for us the technicalities of the instrument. I'm very grateful to all the musician/technical contributors for this
One of the nice things about this thread is that it is mostly understandable to us non-musicians, illuminating for us the technicalities of the instrument. I'm very grateful to all the musician/technical contributors for this
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uday_shankar
- Posts: 1467
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:37
I can speak on this...Ravikiran used to play with one made of bison (technically Gaur) horn. Others played with ones made of hardwoods like mahagony. They were not particularly "scratchy" to me but yes, the PTFE(Teflon) slide that Ravikiran uses today is far smoother.Chandrashekar wrote:I remember Ravikiran used to use a scratchy stone (which would also make a not-very-pleasant contact sound every time it was brought down on the string) as the slide for his gottuvadyam (Chitra Veena) until he happily came across teflon or whatever it is he is using now.
Yes that's one issue for sure and yes, as you say it is an excellent idea to use the adjustable bridges that make small adjustments in vibrating lengths to compensate for discrepancies as you go higher along the fret board. But the problem statement I made is different: with normal "just" intonation rules, the interval between S-R2 (9/8) is slightly higher than the interval between P-D2 (10/9), unlike the guitar which is equally tempered. Similar problems exist with G2/N2 and M2/R1 frets. The sitar folks were on to this problem and hence they play ALL of their music on a single string. If you don't understand the issue, take any perfectly fretted conventional vina (say even the the sunadavinodini), tune it up perfectly, and see if you can make R2 on the second fret on the first string exactly equal to R2 on the 7th fret of the second string.Chandrashekar wrote: Regarding differences in the same note when played on two different strings, which came up in this thread, the reasons include differences in linear densities (weight of a given length of string) because of their different thickness and materials, differences in elasticity, and the difference in how gravity works on each of them.
This is a sociological problem! It's part of the nonsensical "Indian tradition" of division of labor between armchair theorists and workmen. "Upper" class Indians cannot even turn a screwdriver or hammer a nail, leave alone work with wood. In contrast, any westerner who has theories also works with his hands. Solution - we have learn to use the tools and materials ourselves!Chandrashekar wrote:One has to contend with poor workmanship, poor skills with tools, poor knowledge or understanding of materials
Last edited by Guest on 03 Dec 2009, 17:26, edited 1 time in total.
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Chandrashekar
- Posts: 34
- Joined: 01 Dec 2009, 14:28
Nick, I think you're being a little too unassuming in describing yourself as a non-musician. From your varied posts you come across as one of those "Chupa Rustams" who are probably brimming with all kinds of talents and abilities
Oh, I see now. Uday, I probably didn't read your comments properly earlier, but I get exactly what you mean now. But then, we don't necessarily play every note on its own fret, do we? When I play Saveri, for example, I play practically all the Ri notes on the Sa fret (and Dha on Pa). On the first string, I play the Madhya sthayi Ri by using the part of the string behind the meru (and similarly for Mandra Dha on second string). Well, anyway, it's all a trade off, isn't it? A lot of Western musicians absolutely hate their even-tempered scale, but what can they do? They need it to get their harmonies properly.
The Sitar does have an advantage in this matter. What do you think of the idea of tuning the first string of the Veena to Mandra Pa? I made a few observations on this, but would like to have your views.
Wow! That is uncanny. It is exactly what I myself have been complaining about to others in different contexts. Our engineers do armchair theorising with no practical understanding or skills to demonstrate or try out anything, our technicians take a mindless "monkey see, monkey do" kind of approach to work with no conceptual knowledge, and never the twain shall meet, and neither of them can command the respect of the other, which explains why we remain so backward technologically, by and large.
I also complain that so many new training institutes are being opened newly for teaching software even in rural areas, and nothing is being done to impart training in useful hands-on skills with tools, when we have such a shortage of skilled and knowledgeable electricians, mechanics, plumbers and so on. We assume we are doing students a favour by seating them all in front of computers, and we never stop to think about the students' aptitudes or interests; of whether some of them would prefer to work with their hands on other things. The result is that today we cannot find many competent electricians, plumbers, woodworkers, technicians, etc. that can do a good job, simply because we have neglected these things.
Luckily for me we have had a business in the family that involved manufacturing, and all my childhood summer holidays were spent playing with drills and lathes and other stuff, so I've grown to enjoy working with my hands and also have acquired a lot of tools that I use all the time.
But some jobs require very specialised tools and materials, which are not really worth acquiring just for a one-off job, nor would it have been convenient to use such things in my residence, I wasn't clear about usage of some of the materials as I hadn't used them before, and so on, so I thought I'd go to the "experts" on that occasion, which turned out to be a mistake. Yes, nothing like doing things oneself and gaining additional knowledge and skills even from mistakes.
Uday Shankar wrote:But the problem statement I made is different: with normal "just" intonation rules, the interval between S-R2 (9/8) is slightly higher than the interval between P-D2 (10/9), unlike the guitar which is equally tempered.
Oh, I see now. Uday, I probably didn't read your comments properly earlier, but I get exactly what you mean now. But then, we don't necessarily play every note on its own fret, do we? When I play Saveri, for example, I play practically all the Ri notes on the Sa fret (and Dha on Pa). On the first string, I play the Madhya sthayi Ri by using the part of the string behind the meru (and similarly for Mandra Dha on second string). Well, anyway, it's all a trade off, isn't it? A lot of Western musicians absolutely hate their even-tempered scale, but what can they do? They need it to get their harmonies properly.
The Sitar does have an advantage in this matter. What do you think of the idea of tuning the first string of the Veena to Mandra Pa? I made a few observations on this, but would like to have your views.
Uday Shankar wrote: It's part of the nonsensical "Indian tradition" of division of labor between armchair theorists and workmen. "Upper" class Indians cannot even turn a screwdriver or hammer a nail, leave alone work with wood. In contrast, any westerner who has theories also works with his hands. Solution - we have learn to use the tools and materials ourselves!
Wow! That is uncanny. It is exactly what I myself have been complaining about to others in different contexts. Our engineers do armchair theorising with no practical understanding or skills to demonstrate or try out anything, our technicians take a mindless "monkey see, monkey do" kind of approach to work with no conceptual knowledge, and never the twain shall meet, and neither of them can command the respect of the other, which explains why we remain so backward technologically, by and large.
I also complain that so many new training institutes are being opened newly for teaching software even in rural areas, and nothing is being done to impart training in useful hands-on skills with tools, when we have such a shortage of skilled and knowledgeable electricians, mechanics, plumbers and so on. We assume we are doing students a favour by seating them all in front of computers, and we never stop to think about the students' aptitudes or interests; of whether some of them would prefer to work with their hands on other things. The result is that today we cannot find many competent electricians, plumbers, woodworkers, technicians, etc. that can do a good job, simply because we have neglected these things.
Luckily for me we have had a business in the family that involved manufacturing, and all my childhood summer holidays were spent playing with drills and lathes and other stuff, so I've grown to enjoy working with my hands and also have acquired a lot of tools that I use all the time.
But some jobs require very specialised tools and materials, which are not really worth acquiring just for a one-off job, nor would it have been convenient to use such things in my residence, I wasn't clear about usage of some of the materials as I hadn't used them before, and so on, so I thought I'd go to the "experts" on that occasion, which turned out to be a mistake. Yes, nothing like doing things oneself and gaining additional knowledge and skills even from mistakes.
Last edited by Chandrashekar on 03 Dec 2009, 19:05, edited 1 time in total.
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uday_shankar
- Posts: 1467
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:37
Chandrashekar, agree with practically everything you say... sitar Ma tuning (and thus playing the whole kriti on a single string, thus side-stepping fretting issues), promoting hands-on skills training instead of clerical (which is what computer training is) training, machine shop hobbies, etc...
In fact I'm beginning to suspect you're just me under an alias. After you're finished I'll have nothing else to say!
Kidding aside, perhaps we can meet sometime and exchange ideas (mostly me tapping into your brain) on design, tools, fabrication, etc...
In fact I'm beginning to suspect you're just me under an alias
. After you're finished I'll have nothing else to say! Kidding aside, perhaps we can meet sometime and exchange ideas (mostly me tapping into your brain) on design, tools, fabrication, etc...
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Nick H
- Posts: 9382
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
What interesting points! Chandrashekar, I cannot sing a western scale accurately, let alone any raga...
The sociological comments go a long way in illuminating what I, as a foreigner living in India, see, but do not always understand. We have an electrician who, sadly, is usually too busy to come and do small jobs for us. To begin with, it is unusual that he speaks perfect English. We were astonished, recently, to learn that he has a B.Com --- but much prefers to work with his hands than at an office desk. But the system works against him then, as families don't donsider him a suitable prospect. Complex thing, this Indian society...
The sociological comments go a long way in illuminating what I, as a foreigner living in India, see, but do not always understand. We have an electrician who, sadly, is usually too busy to come and do small jobs for us. To begin with, it is unusual that he speaks perfect English. We were astonished, recently, to learn that he has a B.Com --- but much prefers to work with his hands than at an office desk. But the system works against him then, as families don't donsider him a suitable prospect. Complex thing, this Indian society...
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Chandrashekar
- Posts: 34
- Joined: 01 Dec 2009, 14:28
Uday, now you're being modest! Are you planning to visit Bangalore? Sure we could meet up. Perhaps we should not treat this forum as a private chat room, so you could write to my email, nateshch@gmail.com
Nick, please don't get me started on the "Indian society" thing. We Indians have well and truly messed up (though many of us live in complete denial of that fact), and I wouldn't know where to stop if I started off on that, which would not be good for this forum. So, perhaps we should confine ourselves to music and related stuff here. But feel free to email me for discussions on other things
Nick, please don't get me started on the "Indian society" thing. We Indians have well and truly messed up (though many of us live in complete denial of that fact), and I wouldn't know where to stop if I started off on that, which would not be good for this forum. So, perhaps we should confine ourselves to music and related stuff here. But feel free to email me for discussions on other things
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Radhika-Rajnarayan
- Posts: 289
- Joined: 27 Jun 2009, 20:18
Sri Chandrashekhar:
The Sunadavinodini has undergone many many iterations since then - including the response of our own staff who will now hand you a nice pair of 'midrapu' and a small tiny jar of vaseline! Seriously, you should see and try it now.
The digital veena too has undergone changes and is a real pleasure to play. I would be happy if we could meet some time - not just to discuss these but also- the isssue of 'us Indians not working with our hands' - it's a pet peeve in our family along with a whole lot more --I don't want to start, lest I am unable to stop the rant!
Srikant - do you mean 'gamakam' when you say 'bending of strings'? The digital veena is designed to be played like a regular veena, so gamakams can be played very comfortably. I can even play (pull) 9 notes on 1 fret with the facility of the digital veena.
On another note, yes there is a crying need for a scientific approach to the manufacture of acoustic instruments. But who will address the egos and hide-bound ideas of the traditional artisans? And some musicians? Attitudes must change and minds must open for us to move forward. There ARE solutions to some of the problems in acoustic instruments, although not all, that can be overcome through proper scientific analysis.
The Sunadavinodini has undergone many many iterations since then - including the response of our own staff who will now hand you a nice pair of 'midrapu' and a small tiny jar of vaseline! Seriously, you should see and try it now.
The digital veena too has undergone changes and is a real pleasure to play. I would be happy if we could meet some time - not just to discuss these but also- the isssue of 'us Indians not working with our hands' - it's a pet peeve in our family along with a whole lot more --I don't want to start, lest I am unable to stop the rant!
Srikant - do you mean 'gamakam' when you say 'bending of strings'? The digital veena is designed to be played like a regular veena, so gamakams can be played very comfortably. I can even play (pull) 9 notes on 1 fret with the facility of the digital veena.
On another note, yes there is a crying need for a scientific approach to the manufacture of acoustic instruments. But who will address the egos and hide-bound ideas of the traditional artisans? And some musicians? Attitudes must change and minds must open for us to move forward. There ARE solutions to some of the problems in acoustic instruments, although not all, that can be overcome through proper scientific analysis.
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Chandrashekar
- Posts: 34
- Joined: 01 Dec 2009, 14:28
Radhikaji, I'm sure your instruments would have improved a lot since that time. I would definitely like to get to see your latest digital Veena. I remember that decades ago, when I first read about these innovations/inventions by Sri Rajnarayan, I was thinking how wonderful it was that someone could combine their expertise in Indian music and electronics in this useful way and take the bold step of quitting a (much coveted) "government job" and going into business in an environment that was hardly conducive to business, especially in those days. I think Radel has achieved quite a lot under the circumstances, but perhaps I should not write too much on this since people may take me for a salesman from Radel or even you writing under an alias
"midrapu": is that the word for those things? I know them as "naLi" in Tamil (or is that in Malayalam?), and the Sitar's one as "mizraab". These naLis used to be made of thick silver wire a long time ago. Not sure if you've seen that type. They feel very stiff and not very comfortable when worn, pinching the fingers. My parents used to use them, and we still have a few lying around somewhere, but I much prefer the flexible ones made of ordinary metal wire.
You said: "I can even play (pull) 9 notes on 1 fret with the facility of the digital veena."
I wonder if this is a good thing or a bad thing to say from a psychological point of view. In fact, I made a vague mention of some "reservations" I had in an earlier post, and many of those were about perceptions. I am thinking from a marketing point of view.
Here are some points to ponder:
In what way should we project a musical instrument? Hard to play, or easy to play?
How do we want the customer to perceive the product? The primary customer (in this case, the player)? The secondary customer (the rasika)?
Is it good to state or imply that something is easy to do? Or for the user to find out that it is easy?
"Easy" is a double-edged sword that also means "no challenge". Does the musician want to feel (or to find out) that there is no challenge to the instrument?
Is that how he is going to feel after trying the instrument, and once the novelty of producing these effects so easily wears off?
How do you ensure that the musician is not faced with this problem of "no challenge"? Or the audience, either?
How can you prevent the audiences from thinking, "this instrument is supposed to be easy to play and anyone can play it, so what's the big deal?"
One looks at a sitarist producing a series of notes flawlessly and at high speed on just one fret, and cannot help feeling impressed. That's because one already perceives that that thing is not easy to do on the Sitar, even without trying it out. But what would happen if the perception were that this is very easy to do?
You might find it worthwhile addressing these things and more
"midrapu": is that the word for those things? I know them as "naLi" in Tamil (or is that in Malayalam?), and the Sitar's one as "mizraab". These naLis used to be made of thick silver wire a long time ago. Not sure if you've seen that type. They feel very stiff and not very comfortable when worn, pinching the fingers. My parents used to use them, and we still have a few lying around somewhere, but I much prefer the flexible ones made of ordinary metal wire.
You said: "I can even play (pull) 9 notes on 1 fret with the facility of the digital veena."
I wonder if this is a good thing or a bad thing to say from a psychological point of view. In fact, I made a vague mention of some "reservations" I had in an earlier post, and many of those were about perceptions. I am thinking from a marketing point of view.
Here are some points to ponder:
In what way should we project a musical instrument? Hard to play, or easy to play?
How do we want the customer to perceive the product? The primary customer (in this case, the player)? The secondary customer (the rasika)?
Is it good to state or imply that something is easy to do? Or for the user to find out that it is easy?
"Easy" is a double-edged sword that also means "no challenge". Does the musician want to feel (or to find out) that there is no challenge to the instrument?
Is that how he is going to feel after trying the instrument, and once the novelty of producing these effects so easily wears off?
How do you ensure that the musician is not faced with this problem of "no challenge"? Or the audience, either?
How can you prevent the audiences from thinking, "this instrument is supposed to be easy to play and anyone can play it, so what's the big deal?"
One looks at a sitarist producing a series of notes flawlessly and at high speed on just one fret, and cannot help feeling impressed. That's because one already perceives that that thing is not easy to do on the Sitar, even without trying it out. But what would happen if the perception were that this is very easy to do?
You might find it worthwhile addressing these things and more
Last edited by Chandrashekar on 05 Dec 2009, 14:34, edited 1 time in total.
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Nick H
- Posts: 9382
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
Whilst there may be many tabla players who fit your picture, the masters do not, and, again, we must blame the "show" producers if the musicians are mismatched. This can happen, even when these displays are organised by one of the musicians; Southern or Northern; skilled artist does not necessarily mean that they have the knack of producing these programs.
About the difficulty of playing the instrument, my feeling is that this should be minimised. It is the music itself that is the ultimate challenge.
Slightly pertinent is the story I heard from my teacher of the thavil artist that accepted a challenge to learn mridangam in one month. We students were open mouthed, but our teacher explained: it is understanding the music that is the hard part, and that he knew already. Simply learning the fingering of a new instrument was not so hard for him.
Electronics have not made real music easier to play, although many are fooled into thinking that they have. In some ways, they are harder, as the artificial sound of many of them has to be overcome. How horrible the drum machine sounds in the hands of many of its players!
About the difficulty of playing the instrument, my feeling is that this should be minimised. It is the music itself that is the ultimate challenge.
Slightly pertinent is the story I heard from my teacher of the thavil artist that accepted a challenge to learn mridangam in one month. We students were open mouthed, but our teacher explained: it is understanding the music that is the hard part, and that he knew already. Simply learning the fingering of a new instrument was not so hard for him.
Electronics have not made real music easier to play, although many are fooled into thinking that they have. In some ways, they are harder, as the artificial sound of many of them has to be overcome. How horrible the drum machine sounds in the hands of many of its players!
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Radhika-Rajnarayan
- Posts: 289
- Joined: 27 Jun 2009, 20:18
Si Chandrashekhar:
"but perhaps I should not write too much on this since people may take me for a salesman from Radel or even you writing under an alias" - that is a good one!
""midrapu": is that the word for those things? I know them as "naLi" in Tamil (or is that in Malayalam?), and the Sitar's one as "mizraab". These naLis used to be made of thick silver wire a long time ago. Not sure if you've seen that type. They feel very stiff and not very comfortable when worn, pinching the fingers. My parents used to use them, and we still have a few lying around somewhere, but I much prefer the flexible ones made of ordinary metal wire."
Just an alternate word - nali (or neli) is used too. It's not bad, the silver one. I have just one (I use to pluck the talam strings on digiveena - can't use bare nail, not a conductor) - gifted to me by Smt Saraswati (not my teacher, but Mrs R Vishweshwaran). It's a precious gift and I look at it as a blessing.
"In what way should we project a musical instrument? Hard to play, or easy to play?"
No, no - I said that it is 'comfortable to play gamakam', not 'easy'. 'Comfortable ' because it is not physically hard to pull the string.! It's literally painful for the ARM to try and do this. And try it at 5-kattai? The string will break too!
The DIFFICULTY of achieving precision of those 9 notes on a single fret still remains and challenges your artistry. So you still nedd to practise to get that precision. The digital veena only alleviates the irritants and hurdles, so that you can play without these constant niggles.
You still have to practise and get your fingers to move freely, still have to practise to get your instincts to react in time to reach the eduppu, still have to practise, hear, think and meditate to create beautiful music!
As Nick puts it so rightly: "Electronics have not made real music easier to play, although many are fooled into thinking that they have."
I have to point out here that many people think that an electronic instrument is not 'real'. Every instrument including a distortion guitar is real! Ultimately the only thing that matters is the real music that is created, as Nick puts it.
To another point made by Nick - Yes, a drum machine sounds awful in the wrong hands. So does an electric violin! Or an acoustic mridangam, or an acoustic veena. The difference is, the electronic ones are amplified , so the bad playing is heard by everyone!!
So in a way, isn't it good to have amplification that shows up your tiniest mistakes, so you can correct it in time (BEFORE everyone else hears it)? Like a magnifying mirror showing you the beginning of a tiny pimple on your face?
"but perhaps I should not write too much on this since people may take me for a salesman from Radel or even you writing under an alias
" - that is a good one! ""midrapu": is that the word for those things? I know them as "naLi" in Tamil (or is that in Malayalam?), and the Sitar's one as "mizraab". These naLis used to be made of thick silver wire a long time ago. Not sure if you've seen that type. They feel very stiff and not very comfortable when worn, pinching the fingers. My parents used to use them, and we still have a few lying around somewhere, but I much prefer the flexible ones made of ordinary metal wire."
Just an alternate word - nali (or neli) is used too. It's not bad, the silver one. I have just one (I use to pluck the talam strings on digiveena - can't use bare nail, not a conductor) - gifted to me by Smt Saraswati (not my teacher, but Mrs R Vishweshwaran). It's a precious gift and I look at it as a blessing.
"In what way should we project a musical instrument? Hard to play, or easy to play?"
No, no - I said that it is 'comfortable to play gamakam', not 'easy'. 'Comfortable ' because it is not physically hard to pull the string.! It's literally painful for the ARM to try and do this. And try it at 5-kattai? The string will break too!
The DIFFICULTY of achieving precision of those 9 notes on a single fret still remains and challenges your artistry. So you still nedd to practise to get that precision. The digital veena only alleviates the irritants and hurdles, so that you can play without these constant niggles.
You still have to practise and get your fingers to move freely, still have to practise to get your instincts to react in time to reach the eduppu, still have to practise, hear, think and meditate to create beautiful music!
As Nick puts it so rightly: "Electronics have not made real music easier to play, although many are fooled into thinking that they have."
I have to point out here that many people think that an electronic instrument is not 'real'. Every instrument including a distortion guitar is real! Ultimately the only thing that matters is the real music that is created, as Nick puts it.
To another point made by Nick - Yes, a drum machine sounds awful in the wrong hands. So does an electric violin! Or an acoustic mridangam, or an acoustic veena. The difference is, the electronic ones are amplified , so the bad playing is heard by everyone!!
So in a way, isn't it good to have amplification that shows up your tiniest mistakes, so you can correct it in time (BEFORE everyone else hears it)? Like a magnifying mirror showing you the beginning of a tiny pimple on your face?
Last edited by Radhika-Rajnarayan on 05 Dec 2009, 16:03, edited 1 time in total.
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Chandrashekar
- Posts: 34
- Joined: 01 Dec 2009, 14:28
Nick, Radhikaji, actually Nick illustrates the point I was trying to make, by saying:
"Electronics have not made real music easier to play, although many are fooled into thinking that they have."
This is exactly my point: fact versus perception. Notice how many times I have used the word "perception" in my post. That's because, in the real world, perceptions can count for more than facts, and I'm looking at the issue from a marketing angle where this particular point is all important.
Marketers give the highest priority to understanding perceptions, changing perceptions, and creating perceptions. Look at the ads in the media, for example the TV. How many of them mention real facts about the product, like technical details, measurements, etc? Probably none. The ads are designed to target your emotions, using fancy "power words" etc., with little or no factual basis. They are all about perceptions.
To take an example: there is a common model of pressure cooker used in the kitchen, in which the lid locks from the outside. There is another model in which the lid locks from the inside: you insert the lid through the top and then turn it by 90 degrees to close and lock it.
From my own experience, because I enjoy cooking, the second cooker design is vastly superior to the first one. Vastly. Yet one common perception is that the first one is good, and the average person "perceives" the second one as "difficult to close" or something. I have seen people struggling with the lid of the second one, when I am sure a new-born monkey could be trained in no time to close it. Those people have conditioned themselves to believe that closing that lid requires divine assistance.
All this is because of clever and persistent advertising from the first model, all emotionally based and devoid of facts, leading to positive but wrong perceptions, and poor advertising from the second, creating a poor perception, or no perception at all, of the second product.
In fact, the first one has a serious problem of leaking steam, wasted fuel, longer cooking time, and expensive gaskets requiring frequent replacement. But they cleverly marketed it as a very safe cooker: after all, naturally the cooker is safer if the pressure will not build up or if it has many different paths for the steam to leak out from, isn't it? They managed to sell a defect as an advantage. They put the fear of death into you, and used emotional blackmail (in slightly different words, of course): "If you don't want to see your dear wife dead, buy this one. Do the right thing by your family. Don't let your family down." So, when people think of cookers, it is the first model that readily comes to mind.
I was just wondering if you had given any thought to how you are presenting this product and what perceptions are being created, since it is a new product. Sure, you said comfortable. But if the listeners thought you meant easy, well, that is what you said When it comes to perceptions vs facts, perceptions usually win.
"Electronics have not made real music easier to play, although many are fooled into thinking that they have."
This is exactly my point: fact versus perception. Notice how many times I have used the word "perception" in my post. That's because, in the real world, perceptions can count for more than facts, and I'm looking at the issue from a marketing angle where this particular point is all important.
Marketers give the highest priority to understanding perceptions, changing perceptions, and creating perceptions. Look at the ads in the media, for example the TV. How many of them mention real facts about the product, like technical details, measurements, etc? Probably none. The ads are designed to target your emotions, using fancy "power words" etc., with little or no factual basis. They are all about perceptions.
To take an example: there is a common model of pressure cooker used in the kitchen, in which the lid locks from the outside. There is another model in which the lid locks from the inside: you insert the lid through the top and then turn it by 90 degrees to close and lock it.
From my own experience, because I enjoy cooking, the second cooker design is vastly superior to the first one. Vastly. Yet one common perception is that the first one is good, and the average person "perceives" the second one as "difficult to close" or something. I have seen people struggling with the lid of the second one, when I am sure a new-born monkey could be trained in no time to close it. Those people have conditioned themselves to believe that closing that lid requires divine assistance.
All this is because of clever and persistent advertising from the first model, all emotionally based and devoid of facts, leading to positive but wrong perceptions, and poor advertising from the second, creating a poor perception, or no perception at all, of the second product.
In fact, the first one has a serious problem of leaking steam, wasted fuel, longer cooking time, and expensive gaskets requiring frequent replacement. But they cleverly marketed it as a very safe cooker: after all, naturally the cooker is safer if the pressure will not build up or if it has many different paths for the steam to leak out from, isn't it? They managed to sell a defect as an advantage. They put the fear of death into you, and used emotional blackmail (in slightly different words, of course): "If you don't want to see your dear wife dead, buy this one. Do the right thing by your family. Don't let your family down." So, when people think of cookers, it is the first model that readily comes to mind.
I was just wondering if you had given any thought to how you are presenting this product and what perceptions are being created, since it is a new product. Sure, you said comfortable. But if the listeners thought you meant easy, well, that is what you said
When it comes to perceptions vs facts, perceptions usually win.-
Nick H
- Posts: 9382
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
Electronics do not make one able to play music any more than graphics software makes one able to draw --- I've learnt both of these from real experience! Also, when I am researching any gadget purchase, I look to see if the manual is available for download: unlike the brochures, the manual often makes clear what can and can't be done.
I was reading notes from a seminar given by an acoustic scientist the other day (on an Indian hifi forum; there is a forum for everything these days), and the acknowledgement of the effect of our mind on what we think we hear was interesting. Perceptions win, as you say. Maybe science will yet prove that we do, in fact, live in a world of illusion!
(but even if we do, it is the only world we've got!)
I was reading notes from a seminar given by an acoustic scientist the other day (on an Indian hifi forum; there is a forum for everything these days
), and the acknowledgement of the effect of our mind on what we think we hear was interesting. Perceptions win, as you say. Maybe science will yet prove that we do, in fact, live in a world of illusion! (but even if we do, it is the only world we've got!)
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baradu2
- Posts: 39
- Joined: 28 Jun 2009, 09:37
radhika madam, uday uncle , nick sir, chandrashekar sir, and viewers all (i am very sorry if i have ,missed out on names)
i did try out the radel veena (sunadhavinodhini) its simply super!
i wanna mention few things i felt
i tried out a 4 year old one which my friend has and also went to the showroom and tried the new one.
things i noticed were (hope you wont mind my being very frank madam!
1 the tonal quality of the old one was much better!
2 the switches which were jutting out in the old veena were solved in the new ones which was really great.
3 the yazhi or yazh in my opinion is an extra burden and without it the veena seems lighter. but the concept of using the yazh as a place to keep working tools and dusting cloth is extremely nice and very innovative. (i have a set of tools seperate for veena in a seperate pouch and i dont use them for anything else!)
4 the ampli-speaker tone got affected in the older veena when the shrithi box was used. the anthara gandharam when played with the veena's shruthi box sounded little higher or out of tune. same thing happened with panchamam. so i used the normal radel tanpura and easwar tanpura instead of the one provided in the veena. may be its a defect in that particular veena's shruthi box. i might be wrong. but this did not happen in the new veena! which was again great.
now my question,
1 will it be possible to make just the fret board first , then shape the veena according to the fret board?
2 will it be possible to make sitar type curved meru, sitar type curved frets and sitar type curved bridge?
3 wht is the diff between piezoelectric and magnetic pickups? i know for accoustic and magnetic.
i happened to visit this site on guitar fretting. its very interesting. please let me know ur opinion.
the site is called www.projectguitar.com and the whole procedure of making a guitar is explained beautifully in such a manner that a lay man like me, ignorant about making or playing the guitar will be able to make it.
why not we do the same for veena and sitar?
link
http://www.projectguitar.com/tut/tutorial9.htm
in the same site, fretting is explained n the easiest manner possible!
link
http://www.projectguitar.com/tut/fretting.htm
, nick sir, chandrashekar sir, and viewers all (i am very sorry if i have ,missed out on names)i did try out the radel veena (sunadhavinodhini) its simply super!
i wanna mention few things i felt
i tried out a 4 year old one which my friend has and also went to the showroom and tried the new one.
things i noticed were (hope you wont mind my being very frank madam!
1 the tonal quality of the old one was much better!
2 the switches which were jutting out in the old veena were solved in the new ones which was really great.
3 the yazhi or yazh in my opinion is an extra burden and without it the veena seems lighter. but the concept of using the yazh as a place to keep working tools and dusting cloth is extremely nice and very innovative. (i have a set of tools seperate for veena in a seperate pouch and i dont use them for anything else!)
4 the ampli-speaker tone got affected in the older veena when the shrithi box was used. the anthara gandharam when played with the veena's shruthi box sounded little higher or out of tune. same thing happened with panchamam. so i used the normal radel tanpura and easwar tanpura instead of the one provided in the veena. may be its a defect in that particular veena's shruthi box. i might be wrong. but this did not happen in the new veena! which was again great.
now my question,
1 will it be possible to make just the fret board first , then shape the veena according to the fret board?
2 will it be possible to make sitar type curved meru, sitar type curved frets and sitar type curved bridge?
3 wht is the diff between piezoelectric and magnetic pickups? i know for accoustic and magnetic.
i happened to visit this site on guitar fretting. its very interesting. please let me know ur opinion.
the site is called www.projectguitar.com and the whole procedure of making a guitar is explained beautifully in such a manner that a lay man like me, ignorant about making or playing the guitar will be able to make it.
why not we do the same for veena and sitar?
link
http://www.projectguitar.com/tut/tutorial9.htm
in the same site, fretting is explained n the easiest manner possible!
link
http://www.projectguitar.com/tut/fretting.htm
Last edited by baradu2 on 15 Dec 2009, 14:26, edited 1 time in total.
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Radhika-Rajnarayan
- Posts: 289
- Joined: 27 Jun 2009, 20:18
Baradu,
If you are referring to an acoustic veena when you say ' will it be possible to make just the fret board first , then shape the veena according to the fret board?
2 will it be possible to make sitar type curved meru, sitar type curved frets and sitar type curved bridge?'
I cannot speak for acoustic veena manufacturers.
However I can tell you one thing - the distance between the frets and the bridge would have a particular value which probably can't be changed too much.
The curved meru ---etc, you'll have to try and get the users to accept it!!
If you are referring to an acoustic veena when you say ' will it be possible to make just the fret board first , then shape the veena according to the fret board?
2 will it be possible to make sitar type curved meru, sitar type curved frets and sitar type curved bridge?'
I cannot speak for acoustic veena manufacturers.
However I can tell you one thing - the distance between the frets and the bridge would have a particular value which probably can't be changed too much.
The curved meru ---etc, you'll have to try and get the users to accept it!!
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Radhika-Rajnarayan
- Posts: 289
- Joined: 27 Jun 2009, 20:18
Baradu - As I said, curved frets and curved bridge would probably involve a LITTLE bit of adjustment to the playing technique - would people be interested in that?
There are many websites, not only on guitar making, but on violin making, guitar strings, and so many other issues, for Western music.
You can have a website for this. Of course it involves designing, maintenance, hosting, admin etc for which you need competent people to volunteer.
Then you need the traditional artisans to participate to make it meaningful. You also need the end-users (students, teachers, performers of veena) to participate.
And, like the rasikas forum, you may need moderators too.
If all these can be arranged, the website will become a reality.
There are many websites, not only on guitar making, but on violin making, guitar strings, and so many other issues, for Western music.
You can have a website for this. Of course it involves designing, maintenance, hosting, admin etc for which you need competent people to volunteer.
Then you need the traditional artisans to participate to make it meaningful. You also need the end-users (students, teachers, performers of veena) to participate.
And, like the rasikas forum, you may need moderators too.
If all these can be arranged, the website will become a reality.
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Radhika-Rajnarayan
- Posts: 289
- Joined: 27 Jun 2009, 20:18
Baradu - regarding your feedback on the old electronic veena - all comments are more than welcome - we thirst for them!! I inadvertently omitted to answer them.
I think that rather than the built-in TAMBURA in the old e-veena, it may have been the fret position. I prefer to be accurate in using the terms 'sruti-box' and 'tambura', by the way, rather than the popular term 'electronic sruti-box'. I would normally use the term 'sruti box' for the instrument producing a drone type sound (whether electronic / acoustic) and 'tambura / tanpura' for the instrument producing the plucked string sound ( whether electronic / acoustic).
Thanks for all your comments - we will keep our efforts going to continuously improve it.
I will send you forum email to get more details about this e-veena to find out whether it had a defect.
I think that rather than the built-in TAMBURA in the old e-veena, it may have been the fret position. I prefer to be accurate in using the terms 'sruti-box' and 'tambura', by the way, rather than the popular term 'electronic sruti-box'. I would normally use the term 'sruti box' for the instrument producing a drone type sound (whether electronic / acoustic) and 'tambura / tanpura' for the instrument producing the plucked string sound ( whether electronic / acoustic).
Thanks for all your comments - we will keep our efforts going to continuously improve it.
I will send you forum email to get more details about this e-veena to find out whether it had a defect.
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Chandrashekar
- Posts: 34
- Joined: 01 Dec 2009, 14:28
Baradu, nice to read about your experience with the instrument. I haven't yet got to see it with the new storage space design.baradu wrote:... the yazhi or yazh in my opinion is an extra burden and without it the veena seems lighter. but the concept of using the yazh as a place to keep working tools and dusting cloth is extremely nice and very innovative...
Here are some pictures of the storage space on the yazh of my own Veenai. This Veenai was made to order by my parents in Kollam (Quilon), Kerala, in 1958/59; i.e., it is about 50 years old. How does the Radel box design compare with it?
(I am removing the pictures that I had originally posted, since this design is apparently quite common.)
I think the factor of aesthetic appeal must not be overlooked by any innovator. The very look of musical instruments must appeal to the heart, and not just to the head. There is no real pleasure at an emotional level from playing an instrument, however great the features it has, if it is going to look like a piece of laboratory equipment, like a sonometer or something, or like a work in progress. Also, appearance parts must never be compromised by using tacky materials.
Have a look at this iPod dock: the design, the finish, the simplicity and elegance of controls, etc., all add up to creating enormous emotional appeal. You are tempted to buy products like these just for their sheer beauty, even if you are not going to use them.
[img=Teac iPod dock]http://lh3.ggpht.com/_lRyCvjyial4/Sym6k ... 00x400.jpg[/img]
Last edited by Chandrashekar on 18 Dec 2009, 11:29, edited 1 time in total.
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Radhika-Rajnarayan
- Posts: 289
- Joined: 27 Jun 2009, 20:18
Sri Chandrashekar,
The design you have shown in the photos is the standard design on every veena since decades (centuries??). Every single veena has the storage box in the same manner, and the Yali with the ivory teeth too.
The storage box in the Radel veena has been there right from the beginning. Perhaps you did not notice it, and thought it was jsut a decoration.
Regarding the aesthetic design - again, I beg to differ from you in your perception of aesthetically acceptable.
The tanjore veena and others were designed in a particular century, with certain aesthetic values and design concepts, whether it was textiles, architecture, painting or any other craft. Those concepts should change over time.
A simplified but elegant design, is what we have endeavoured to achieve in the Radel veena.
You have shown the Apple I pod dock. See how simple it is, and you are able to appreciate that. You do not demand that it should be in the elaborate European baroque style, or the Regency style, do you?
Then why do our vainikas demand that the electronic veena should look exactly like the acoustic veena, that too the veena where no one dares change the exterior appearance?
As long as a visual object is elegantly designed and pleases the eye, and in the case of a musical instrument, pleases the ear with the sound, it should be accepted, if the rasika is a true rasika.
The design you have shown in the photos is the standard design on every veena since decades (centuries??). Every single veena has the storage box in the same manner, and the Yali with the ivory teeth too.
The storage box in the Radel veena has been there right from the beginning. Perhaps you did not notice it, and thought it was jsut a decoration.
Regarding the aesthetic design - again, I beg to differ from you in your perception of aesthetically acceptable.
The tanjore veena and others were designed in a particular century, with certain aesthetic values and design concepts, whether it was textiles, architecture, painting or any other craft. Those concepts should change over time.
A simplified but elegant design, is what we have endeavoured to achieve in the Radel veena.
You have shown the Apple I pod dock. See how simple it is, and you are able to appreciate that. You do not demand that it should be in the elaborate European baroque style, or the Regency style, do you?
Then why do our vainikas demand that the electronic veena should look exactly like the acoustic veena, that too the veena where no one dares change the exterior appearance?
As long as a visual object is elegantly designed and pleases the eye, and in the case of a musical instrument, pleases the ear with the sound, it should be accepted, if the rasika is a true rasika.
Last edited by Radhika-Rajnarayan on 17 Dec 2009, 16:40, edited 1 time in total.
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Chandrashekar
- Posts: 34
- Joined: 01 Dec 2009, 14:28
Radhikaji, you are preaching to the choir
Actually I have never questioned design changes per se. I was just making a general statement that any designer must also keep aesthetics in mind, and not simply functionality. This was with reference to the topic of this thread regarding innovation. I mentioned the veena design just as an example, and not as the standard to be followed for future designs.
I posted those pics because I wasn't sure what baradu was referring to regarding innovative design. I remember vaguely that when I tried out the Sunadavinodini years ago, it had some kind of dark coloured circular box attached to the end; I never really looked closely at that part.
By the way, I think that to say "every single veena" is a bit of an exaggeration. In all the veenas I have myself come across, that part has simply been left open, with no cover; I have seen lots with wooden teeth cut out of the body material, and some with teeth of white plastic; veenas with the look and feel of Bhima's mace; brand new veenas with cracks on the body because of poor quality wood; veenas with cheap and tacky paper/plastic designs pasted/nailed along the edges, and so on. I don't think there is all that much "standard" in veena designs, other than the general shape and the numbers of frets and strings.
I do admire Radel for all the innovative products you have brought about (and for setting the standards for others to copy, as stated by an ad that I read somewhere for some product). Will be glad to have a look at the new design. I am intrigued after reading all these reports
Actually, I too have for long been very interested in coming up with other elegant and portable designs for the veena. I had a go at some hybrid designs a long time ago (out of desperation because safe transportation was getting to be a real problem), but for some reason I did not persist with it. But I am still all for it.
There is no reason to call these other instruments the veena. One can always attach qualifier words, as with Chitra veena and Mohan veena, or even give it an entirely new name; one which is catchy and emotionally appealing. As I mentioned before, my experience has been that when I would put down one instrument and pick up another one of a different style and belonging to a different category, I would undergo a mental "state change", and simply accept that there is something different, rather than think there is something wrong. (I think I earlier gave the example of the Maggi ad: "It's different".)
I'd say form and function are the most important things (somewhat like Howard Roark in Ayn Rand's The Fountainhead). Everything should have a purpose. No additions/changes just for the sake of additions/changes. There is beauty in simplicity too, as with that iPod dock. We've all heard of "less is more". Pleasing to both eye and ear, and also to the hands, is what I too would say. There could be many ways of achieving that.
Regarding objections from other rasikas, that could come mainly from resistance to change. To generate greater acceptance, you may just need more and more exposure to create more familiarity. This could be managed through public performances by yourself or by other existing instrumentalists/vainikas, through lec-dems (for example, a general lec-dem series on "appreciation/understanding of carnatic music" where you demonstrate the points using these new instruments), good videos posted on media like youtube, etc. People love to watch kids perform (especially those with cute smiles;-), so you could have talented kids performing on the instrument. How about jugalbandi/group performance with veena/new instrument/other instruments? You could organise a veena competition where the winner could get a free Radel instrument and of course play it on stage at the time of the event (that would certainly attract a lot of interest). And so on. It all depends on budget, human resources, and things like that.
You said: As long as a visual object is elegantly designed and pleases the eye, and in the case of a musical instrument, pleases the ear with the sound, it should be accepted, if the rasika is a true rasika.
I would agree with you on this as impeccable logic. But at the same time, I would like to caution you that few marketing persons would actually advance such a logic to customers.
You would be much better off coming up with right-brain appeal. You need to appeal to emotions, not just to logic. (Logic is better left for industrial marketing.) Most of the logical aspects here that are related to specifications will be "necessary but not sufficient".
There is an emotional involvement with the veena as a divine instrument in the hands of goddess Saraswati. You cannot tackle that with logic.
It is one thing for a person to say he is playing saraswati's instrument, and quite another to say he is playing something else that has no past history / mythological significance. And the same goes for the listener too.
The "if a=b and b=c, then a=c" type of reasoning is perfectly correct distributive logic, but does nothing for the prospective customer. I would even say that making such a statement would be counter-productive. People don't want to be told how to think or act; told that they are wrong.
A good marketer never "sells"; rather, he lets his customers "buy". His strategy is to let his customers feel they are the ones making the buying decision, by creating exposure, increasing familiarity, identifying and eliminating other barriers to acceptance, and cleverly guiding them in such a way that they themselves get to realize the good points of the product without just being told so.
Actually I have never questioned design changes per se. I was just making a general statement that any designer must also keep aesthetics in mind, and not simply functionality. This was with reference to the topic of this thread regarding innovation. I mentioned the veena design just as an example, and not as the standard to be followed for future designs.
I posted those pics because I wasn't sure what baradu was referring to regarding innovative design. I remember vaguely that when I tried out the Sunadavinodini years ago, it had some kind of dark coloured circular box attached to the end; I never really looked closely at that part.
By the way, I think that to say "every single veena" is a bit of an exaggeration. In all the veenas I have myself come across, that part has simply been left open, with no cover; I have seen lots with wooden teeth cut out of the body material, and some with teeth of white plastic; veenas with the look and feel of Bhima's mace; brand new veenas with cracks on the body because of poor quality wood; veenas with cheap and tacky paper/plastic designs pasted/nailed along the edges, and so on. I don't think there is all that much "standard" in veena designs, other than the general shape and the numbers of frets and strings.
I do admire Radel for all the innovative products you have brought about (and for setting the standards for others to copy, as stated by an ad that I read somewhere for some product). Will be glad to have a look at the new design. I am intrigued after reading all these reports
Actually, I too have for long been very interested in coming up with other elegant and portable designs for the veena. I had a go at some hybrid designs a long time ago (out of desperation because safe transportation was getting to be a real problem), but for some reason I did not persist with it. But I am still all for it.
There is no reason to call these other instruments the veena. One can always attach qualifier words, as with Chitra veena and Mohan veena, or even give it an entirely new name; one which is catchy and emotionally appealing. As I mentioned before, my experience has been that when I would put down one instrument and pick up another one of a different style and belonging to a different category, I would undergo a mental "state change", and simply accept that there is something different, rather than think there is something wrong. (I think I earlier gave the example of the Maggi ad: "It's different".)
I'd say form and function are the most important things (somewhat like Howard Roark in Ayn Rand's The Fountainhead). Everything should have a purpose. No additions/changes just for the sake of additions/changes. There is beauty in simplicity too, as with that iPod dock. We've all heard of "less is more". Pleasing to both eye and ear, and also to the hands, is what I too would say. There could be many ways of achieving that.
Regarding objections from other rasikas, that could come mainly from resistance to change. To generate greater acceptance, you may just need more and more exposure to create more familiarity. This could be managed through public performances by yourself or by other existing instrumentalists/vainikas, through lec-dems (for example, a general lec-dem series on "appreciation/understanding of carnatic music" where you demonstrate the points using these new instruments), good videos posted on media like youtube, etc. People love to watch kids perform (especially those with cute smiles;-), so you could have talented kids performing on the instrument. How about jugalbandi/group performance with veena/new instrument/other instruments? You could organise a veena competition where the winner could get a free Radel instrument and of course play it on stage at the time of the event (that would certainly attract a lot of interest). And so on. It all depends on budget, human resources, and things like that.
You said: As long as a visual object is elegantly designed and pleases the eye, and in the case of a musical instrument, pleases the ear with the sound, it should be accepted, if the rasika is a true rasika.
I would agree with you on this as impeccable logic. But at the same time, I would like to caution you that few marketing persons would actually advance such a logic to customers.
You would be much better off coming up with right-brain appeal. You need to appeal to emotions, not just to logic. (Logic is better left for industrial marketing.) Most of the logical aspects here that are related to specifications will be "necessary but not sufficient".
There is an emotional involvement with the veena as a divine instrument in the hands of goddess Saraswati. You cannot tackle that with logic.
It is one thing for a person to say he is playing saraswati's instrument, and quite another to say he is playing something else that has no past history / mythological significance. And the same goes for the listener too.
The "if a=b and b=c, then a=c" type of reasoning is perfectly correct distributive logic, but does nothing for the prospective customer. I would even say that making such a statement would be counter-productive. People don't want to be told how to think or act; told that they are wrong.
A good marketer never "sells"; rather, he lets his customers "buy". His strategy is to let his customers feel they are the ones making the buying decision, by creating exposure, increasing familiarity, identifying and eliminating other barriers to acceptance, and cleverly guiding them in such a way that they themselves get to realize the good points of the product without just being told so.
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girish_a
- Posts: 432
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 13:33
Here is an article by Om Malik, popular tech blogger, which compares Apple's products with the Taj Mahal. I'm posting the link here because it talks about a similar topic:
http://gigaom.com/2009/02/19/what-the-t ... in-common/
http://gigaom.com/2009/02/19/what-the-t ... in-common/
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Radhika-Rajnarayan
- Posts: 289
- Joined: 27 Jun 2009, 20:18
Chandrashekar-
"To generate greater acceptance, you may just need more and more exposure to create more familiarity. This could be managed through public performances by yourself or by other existing instrumentalists/vainikas, through lec-dems (for example, a general lec-dem series on "appreciation/understanding of carnatic music" where you demonstrate the points using these new instruments), good videos posted on media like youtube, etc."
Yes indeed, we have done those - a veena festival in 2003 in Chennai - Jeyaraaj-Jaysri played as well as Iyer Bros, Mudikondan Ramesh etc, and another in Bangalore wher Jayanthi Kumaresh and others played - each fest had 4 electronic veena concerts.
Of course I myself always play on the electronic veena on DD as well as AIR apart from the (extremely rare!) concert.
Then we have had others who have used our veena for concerts initially and later purchased - Jayashree Mahesh, Nirmala Rajasekar etc.
There was an ETV programme with an ensemble of electronic veenas on ViIjayadasami day - you can see the photo on our website. It was several years ago, before youtube became popular.
There are videos on youtube, too.
And we have had kids performing on the electronic veena.
We have done this exercise and several others, with other instruments also.
All of these have been regularly reported in our newsletter which can also be seen online on our website.
In other words, 'been there, done that'!!
They do give results, I do not deny it- although painfully slow. As marketing tools, we have tried many formats. Perhaps any other person in this line would have given it up long ago as 'not a viable business proposition'!!
I am only presenting my point of view on the forum, as a logical point of argument, rather than any effort at marketing - I know only too well that no amount of theoretical (or even practical) logic works with the user. I also know from experience that any new product in this line takes at least a year or two to be accepted by the user.
My points are only from the view of logic and counter arguments, between forumites!! Specially my statement: "As long as a visual object is elegantly designed and pleases the eye, and in the case of a musical instrument, pleases the ear with the sound, it should be accepted, if the rasika is a true rasika."
Somehow, I have hardly ever seen acoustic veenas with just an opening in the place of the 'tool-box', or those wooden teeth for yali etc. This is where I feel our artisans should come up with new modern and aesthetic contemporary design ideas. Something pleasing, functional and yet possible to design and produce today. Why desperately try to imitate the yali if we cannot make it right?
And the statement about 'Saraswati's instrument' -hmmmmm- no comment, lest I invite another lecture on marketing techniques!!
No offence meant!
Look forward to meeting you some time.
"To generate greater acceptance, you may just need more and more exposure to create more familiarity. This could be managed through public performances by yourself or by other existing instrumentalists/vainikas, through lec-dems (for example, a general lec-dem series on "appreciation/understanding of carnatic music" where you demonstrate the points using these new instruments), good videos posted on media like youtube, etc."
Yes indeed, we have done those - a veena festival in 2003 in Chennai - Jeyaraaj-Jaysri played as well as Iyer Bros, Mudikondan Ramesh etc, and another in Bangalore wher Jayanthi Kumaresh and others played - each fest had 4 electronic veena concerts.
Of course I myself always play on the electronic veena on DD as well as AIR apart from the (extremely rare!) concert.
Then we have had others who have used our veena for concerts initially and later purchased - Jayashree Mahesh, Nirmala Rajasekar etc.
There was an ETV programme with an ensemble of electronic veenas on ViIjayadasami day - you can see the photo on our website. It was several years ago, before youtube became popular.
There are videos on youtube, too.
And we have had kids performing on the electronic veena.
We have done this exercise and several others, with other instruments also.
All of these have been regularly reported in our newsletter which can also be seen online on our website.
In other words, 'been there, done that'!!
They do give results, I do not deny it- although painfully slow. As marketing tools, we have tried many formats. Perhaps any other person in this line would have given it up long ago as 'not a viable business proposition'!!
I am only presenting my point of view on the forum, as a logical point of argument, rather than any effort at marketing - I know only too well that no amount of theoretical (or even practical) logic works with the user. I also know from experience that any new product in this line takes at least a year or two to be accepted by the user.
My points are only from the view of logic and counter arguments, between forumites!! Specially my statement: "As long as a visual object is elegantly designed and pleases the eye, and in the case of a musical instrument, pleases the ear with the sound, it should be accepted, if the rasika is a true rasika."
Somehow, I have hardly ever seen acoustic veenas with just an opening in the place of the 'tool-box', or those wooden teeth for yali etc. This is where I feel our artisans should come up with new modern and aesthetic contemporary design ideas. Something pleasing, functional and yet possible to design and produce today. Why desperately try to imitate the yali if we cannot make it right?
And the statement about 'Saraswati's instrument' -hmmmmm- no comment, lest I invite another lecture on marketing techniques!!
No offence meant!
Look forward to meeting you some time.
Last edited by Radhika-Rajnarayan on 18 Dec 2009, 10:06, edited 1 time in total.
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Chandrashekar
- Posts: 34
- Joined: 01 Dec 2009, 14:28
Girish, interesting blog. By a strange coincidence, I am planning a visit (my third, actually) to Agra some time in January, along with a couple of friends.
Radhikaji, okay, no more marketing lectures:-) In any case, one really needs to conduct market research and analyse the results, and assumptions don't help in any way.
I haven't seen your newsletter, and will have a look. Look forward to meeting you too, and also getting the opportunity to learn about the merits of your electronic veena first hand.
Regarding artisans coming up with design ideas, I'm not sure they are the right people for that. First of all, I don't know how many of them even play the instrument, and, secondly, this is just a job for many of them, and not a passion. Also, they will have to spend (and also waste) their own time, money and materials for these things, and then show to whom? Sell to whom? And if it is successful, some competitor will steal their ideas and sell the products cheaper as they require no investment in R&D, market development, etc. (you've seen that too, haven't you?)! The environment here is hardly conducive to such things.
In any case, I think it is the artistes who should come up with such design ideas. They are the ones who would feel the need, anyway.
Radhikaji, okay, no more marketing lectures:-) In any case, one really needs to conduct market research and analyse the results, and assumptions don't help in any way.
I haven't seen your newsletter, and will have a look. Look forward to meeting you too, and also getting the opportunity to learn about the merits of your electronic veena first hand.
Regarding artisans coming up with design ideas, I'm not sure they are the right people for that. First of all, I don't know how many of them even play the instrument, and, secondly, this is just a job for many of them, and not a passion. Also, they will have to spend (and also waste) their own time, money and materials for these things, and then show to whom? Sell to whom? And if it is successful, some competitor will steal their ideas and sell the products cheaper as they require no investment in R&D, market development, etc. (you've seen that too, haven't you?)! The environment here is hardly conducive to such things.
In any case, I think it is the artistes who should come up with such design ideas. They are the ones who would feel the need, anyway.
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thanjavooran
- Posts: 2978
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 04:44
Re: new ideas on veenai innovation needed part 2
During 1976, Dr. Balaraman an I I T professor developed a fibre glass Vina which was first played by Vidwan Pichumani avl, accompanied by UKS with another fibre glass made mirudhangam by the same professor designed by UKS. For a lame rasika like me could not find any difference. The tuning was done using screw driver and spanner. Just curious to know whether these instruments are being used presently by any of the vidwans.
Thanjavooran 12 01 2011
Thanjavooran 12 01 2011
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sriram1974
- Posts: 36
- Joined: 17 Jun 2018, 07:49
Re: new ideas on veenai innovation needed part 2
Do we have a Fibre Glass Veena available in the market now-a-days? If yes, could someone provide me a web site or phone number for me to buy the same ?thanjavooran wrote: ↑12 Jan 2011, 16:41 During 1976, Dr. Balaraman an I I T professor developed a fibre glass Vina which was first played by Vidwan Pichumani avl, accompanied by UKS with another fibre glass made mirudhangam by the same professor designed by UKS. For a lame rasika like me could not find any difference. The tuning was done using screw driver and spanner. Just curious to know whether these instruments are being used presently by any of the vidwans.
Thanjavooran 12 01 2011
Thanks