Sanjay Subramanyan- Music Academy - 27-12-17

bhakthim dehi · Post by **bhakthim dehi** » 04 Jan 2018, 22:29

Linking issues is of no use.
I never mentioned about commercialisation of music.
Read my comments properly.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 05 Jan 2018, 02:17

How does music find new expression and what is creativity? Why do they say that a sishya should not just ape his guru, but form his own style? Who decides on such issues, the musicians or the critics? Were SSI, GNB, etc. who added several sangatis to the trinity kritis fools and unaware of the music? What is wrong musically to add sangatis and manodharma to kritis? How do we know authentically how exactly the trinity themselves sang their compositions? Do we have some clairvoyance? How far can we understand correctly from books and notations? Was PS wrong when he agreed for some songs like maname kanamum his tune to be changed? Who adds value to music - the artist or the critic?

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 05 Jan 2018, 09:39

bhakthim dehi wrote: ↑04 Jan 2018, 22:29 Linking issues is of no use.

No use to who? Let us not close our eyes and believe that the world is dark.

I never mentioned about commercialisation of music.
Read my comments properly.

You are ignoring it. See my comment above.

If Thyagaraja were alive today, would he have gotten the prime evening slot at the Music Academy?
Or a Sangeetha Kalanidhi?

bhakthim dehi · Post by **bhakthim dehi** » 05 Jan 2018, 11:06

No use to who?

I always talk to the point. My answer was your response regarding embellishments. I am not interested in commercialization or any other issue.

Thyagaraja were alive today, would he have gotten the prime evening slot at the Music Academy?
Or a Sangeetha Kalanidhi?

You are imagining everyone in the same pedestal as that of you. Singing in the court of a King is much beneficial on all aspects than a SK title or getting an evening slot in MA once in a year.
Rejecting such a great opportunity is to be rewarded. I hope you can only imagine of having such a mindset.

Open your eyes. World is beyond MA.

I need not and not willing to elaborate on this. His compositions speak more than me.
So don't expect any more reply from me on this line.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 05 Jan 2018, 11:18

Thyagaraja was great, but CM has grown beyond him and he deserves credit for such blossoming. If that had not happened, his greatness would have been in the shelves. I read that the story of nidhi chala sukhama is apocryphal. But, without such stories, we can appreciate his passion for and contribution to CM.

bhakthim dehi · Post by **bhakthim dehi** » 05 Jan 2018, 11:31

I place my evidences not on these stories. References that he gives iin his krithis.

And my replies are in response to the embellishments. Not interested in any other issues .

bhakthim dehi · Post by **bhakthim dehi** » 05 Jan 2018, 11:42

How does music find new expression and what is creativity?

When our music is so flexible and allows musicians to create and innovate in the form of Manodharma sangeetham, why should we even touch the compositions of others. Others, here refers to any vaggeyakara, not only Trinity. Only these vaggeyakara knows the reason for tuning in that particular ragam or giving a few or multiple sangathis. Who are we to touch that?
If a musician feels like embellishing, he can do while performing neraval. Else he himself can compose in that ragam and add any number of sangathis. Else, he can tune poems like thiruvarutpa etc in that particular . See the number rof options he has!
Musicians also have the responsibility of these krithis in an unchanged form to his students.

Was PS wrong when he agreed for some songs like maname kanamum

You have an answer. 'PS agreed' - so it's his wish.
How we can we apply this to other vaggeyakara?
Certainly, their MalavaSri or Gowri or Huseni is impeccable and I dont think anyone of us can even go near them.

bhakthim dehi · Post by **bhakthim dehi** » 05 Jan 2018, 12:11

How do we know authentically how exactly the trinity themselves sang their compositions?

Nature of the voice, it's timber, pitch etc differ from one person to another. Hence, it is not required to sing like others. But, we can always sing in a raga lakshanam that they have prescribed.

How far can we understand correctly from books and notations

Learning from notations is nothing wrong. Learning from a teacher is always best and to be followed. But, when a teacher is unaware of a krithi, we need to rely only on notations.
Also, our predecessors have encouraged their successors, learning from notations.
If we have respect towards our sangeetham, devotion towards the composer and our Guru, they will guide us to learn properly.

Vocalist · Post by **Vocalist** » 05 Jan 2018, 21:17

bhakthim dehi, please use the quote button if you can as it is sometimes not clear that your comments are replies to particular text from another post.

bhakthim dehi wrote: ↑05 Jan 2018, 11:31 I place my evidences not on these stories. References that he gives iin his krithis.

bhakthim dehi wrote: ↑04 Jan 2018, 21:51 It is said Sri Thyagaraja didn't allow his disciples even to add sangathis. So, any embellishments done in his krithis are really against his wish.

Said by whom/where/when? Was it because he didn't want his works altered at all, or was it because his disciples had not reached a stage where the sangathis they were adding were technically correct or appropriate in the context of the composition at the time?

bhakthim dehi wrote: ↑04 Jan 2018, 21:51 Certainly, it's their creations and no one can excel more than them in any aspect. This holds good for the creations of any vaggeyakara.

That is your subjective opinion or the paramaters of your own vaggeyakara/guru bhakthi as an individual. There is nothing wrong with you holding that opinion or belief. But it is not a categorical fact that a composer cannot be excelled in any respect of a particular composition/creation.

bhakthim dehi wrote: ↑05 Jan 2018, 11:06 Singing in the court of a King is much beneficial on all aspects than a SK title or getting an evening slot in MA once in a year.
Rejecting such a great opportunity is to be rewarded. I hope you can only imagine of having such a mindset.

Life at that time was very different to how it is now. If I understand you correctly, you are referring to a vaggeyakara having the mindset of rejecting an opportunity to sign in the court of a king, and actually rejecting the opportunity unlike many musicians in this day and age. What sureshvv has alluded to (if I understand him correctly) is that Thyagaraja would/may not have allowed his disciples to perform for such commercial ventures, and so the very performance of his krithis are against his wish - that being the case, how is it right to isolate one restriction from another? Moreover, would his opinion have changed with time (for example, DKJ lived long enough to see the benefit of recordings to change his opinion about the same - how can it be said that any other person's opinion would never ever change)? These are not my questions; these are just my interpretation of what was put to you - but it seems you have not really addressed those in the correct context.

Vocalist · Post by **Vocalist** » 05 Jan 2018, 21:19

bhakthim dehi wrote: ↑05 Jan 2018, 11:42 When our music is so flexible and allows musicians to create and innovate in the form of Manodharma sangeetham, why should we even touch the compositions of others. Others, here refers to any vaggeyakara, not only Trinity. Only these vaggeyakara knows the reason for tuning in that particular ragam or giving a few or multiple sangathis. Who are we to touch that?
If a musician feels like embellishing, he can do while performing neraval. Else he himself can compose in that ragam and add any number of sangathis. Else, he can tune poems like thiruvarutpa etc in that particular . See the number rof options he has!
Musicians also have the responsibility of these krithis in an unchanged form to his students.

It's a great philosophy. That said, re-tuning music has simply become a fact of life whether it is slightly or significantly, let alone deliberately or inadvertently. Even the "esteemed" gurus change the notations (and the teaching of compositions) in respect of their disciples. It has happened so much that the krithis have changed from generation to generation from what was originally taught by the composer. In that context, it may very well be that the next generation of musician does not merely keep that same "changed" form they were taught, but in fact reverts the krithi to the correct form as intended by the original composer in accordance with the current times. Nobody will ever really know, particularly for those older/original compositions.

Regardless, I think it's not just a matter of staying in the box of what a composer intended melodically/rhythmically; it is also a matter of what else the composer wanted to express/achieve beyond that.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 05 Jan 2018, 21:42

bhakthim dehi wrote: ↑05 Jan 2018, 12:11 If we have respect towards our sangeetham, devotion towards the composer and our Guru, they will guide us to learn properly.

Well said! Looks like they have asked us to embellish.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 06 Jan 2018, 22:13

Somehow it occurs to me that the music has been enriched by the addition of sangathis. Much of what is sung today in O Rangasayee has been added by SSI, I heard. TMK mentioned how Musiri has added a fantastic sangathi to it. The numerous sangathis to vathapi gnapathim have been added much later. There is difference even between the patantharams of Thyagaraja’s disciples who must have been beholden to his genius. The differences have been cherished by the respective schools. To be fixated on what the composer has done (granting that it has come down without change) seems pedantic to me.
I do not feel that the additions mar the intention or the import of what the composer meant. On the contrary, they enhance.

bhakthim dehi · Post by **bhakthim dehi** » 07 Jan 2018, 10:34

bhakthim dehi, please use the quote button if you can as it is sometimes not clear that your comments are replies to particular text from another post.

Usually I do this. for the last few days, I was only with my mobile. Though it showed an option to "quote', it didnt function. regret for the same.

Said by whom/where/when? Was it because he didn't want his works altered at all, or was it because his disciples had not reached a stage where the sangathis they were adding were technically correct or appropriate in the context of the composition at the time?

Sri. AM Chinnaswamy Mudaliyar in his book. It seems the composer wishes his composition to be unaltered.

That is your subjective opinion or the paramaters of your own vaggeyakara/guru bhakthi as an individual. There is nothing wrong with you holding that opinion or belief. But it is not a categorical fact that a composer cannot be excelled in any respect of a particular composition/creation.

It is an interesting argument to discuss. Though, it appears to be subjective, I feel after a point (of time in their life), everyone or at least a majority will be on my side.
In our music, a composition can be perceived in many ways: as a mere portal of enjoyment, way of enjoying a ragam, analysis and deeper contemplation of sahityam or all of these. When you indulge in the last activity, you get connected with the composer. It is an experience I would say and it is to be only experienced.
When that happens, you wont see sahitya as a string of syllables; rather a message from the composer given to us. When he says, 'nityananda ruposmi, brahmaananda ruposmi', though we haven't experienced nityanandam and brahmanandam, we can definitely realise the composer has experienced. What more else a composer need to express when he says 'Sriramasya dasoham , no cheth sri rama evaaham"? Its up to us to understand.
When that connection happens, thought of EMBELLISHING will not occur, as you know its their emotions and you cannot do anything more than them.
Same with the aspect of musical melody. I doubt how many musicians are even aware of the phrases used by these composers.
So, no musicians can equal them. Let this be a subjective opinion.

Moreover, would his opinion have changed with time (for example, DKJ lived long enough to see the benefit of recordings to change his opinion about the same - how can it be said that any other person's opinion would never ever change)? These are not my questions; these are just my interpretation of what was put to you - but it seems you have not really addressed those in the correct context.

The ability to judge others is based on our mental maturity. Careful examination of their compositions clearly reveals their mental maturity is ahead of ours. You can understand this point only, if you have read the grading given by Sri Sivan Sir in his book "Yenippadigalil Manthargal". If you haven't read, do it once. All these questions become redundant.

bhakthim dehi · Post by **bhakthim dehi** » 07 Jan 2018, 10:39

Even the "esteemed" gurus change the notations (and the teaching of compositions) in respect of their disciples. It has happened so much that the krithis have changed from generation to generation from what was originally taught by the composer.

In my opinion, that is to condemned.

In that context, it may very well be that the next generation of musician does not merely keep that same "changed" form they were taught, but in fact reverts the krithi to the correct form as intended by the original composer in accordance with the current times. Nobody will ever really know, particularly for those older/original compositions.

It sounds very nice, but this cannot even happen theoretically.
Let us take an example. Sangathis in the krithi Nenarunchinanu is of late origin. Did any musician prevent from singing? Changes in the name of embellishing occur only in the forward direction. No one will refrain from singing sangathis, after it got established.
Once particular phrases are eschewed from a ragam, they are gone. Very very difficult to get them back.

bhakthim dehi · Post by **bhakthim dehi** » 07 Jan 2018, 10:46

It has happened so much that the krithis have changed from generation to generation from what was originally taught by the composer.

Lack of this thought or connection by a few musicians, is responsible for this change.
Only way is to overcome this is to search for the older versions which reasonably give a good picture of the melodic structure as seen by the composer.

I do not feel that the additions mar the intention or the import of what the composer meant. On the contrary, they enhance.

I definitely feel. Especially the cascading sangathis add nothing to beautify a ragam is my opinion.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 07 Jan 2018, 13:09

Lots of theoretical hand waving ignoring the most important fact which is that there is no notation available for reproducing accurately and to the last detail even one minute of real concert platform singing, leave alone the accompanists embellishment. All of the "education" up to that point is left along with one's slippers outside the stage.

And it never happens the same way again.

Even the "kaalapramanam" is not standard, which can totally change the presentation. Adding sangatis is not the only kind of embellishment. Singing at a faster kaalapramanam, repeating certain lines, starting from anupallavi, starting from the middle of a line, breaking compound words differently, mrdangam holding back, mrdangam playing at double speed - the variety is infinite.

Check out:

https://youtu.be/Tw-6V3EV1D4?t=2564

bhakthim dehi · Post by **bhakthim dehi** » 07 Jan 2018, 14:21

Lots of theoretical hand waving ignoring the most important fact which is that there is no notation available for reproducing accurately

Notations not available? Whose compositions you refer to ?
On the other hand, I can also hear many saying, it is difficult to sing from Pradarshini, an authentic source for Deekshithar krithis.
What I wish to say is the mindset that is to be changed.

All of the "education" up to that point is left along with one's slippers outside the stage.

We can never generalise in issues like this. I know many who give us a pure music (music that they have learnt and no embellishing any more) in kalpita sangeetham and adhering to the grammar in kalpana sangeetham.
You only see what you wish to see.

Even the "kaalapramanam" is not standard, which can totally change the presentation. Adding sangatis is not the only kind of embellishment. Singing at a faster kaalapramanam, repeating certain lines, starting from anupallavi, starting from the middle of a line, breaking compound words differently, mrdangam holding back, mrdangam playing at double speed - the variety is infinite.

Yes. I gave only an example.
Starting from the middle of a line and breaking a word meaninglessly come under ignorance and a careless attitude of taking compoisers and rasikas as granted. Composers, even if they are alive, will not be worried and we, the rasikas, the majority didn't mind what they sing. We just see the brand.

mrdangam holding back, mrdangam playing at double speed

In what way mrudungam playing influences sahityam or a raga lakshanam ?

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 07 Jan 2018, 15:49

bhakthim dehi wrote: ↑07 Jan 2018, 14:21 Notations not available? Whose compositions you refer to ?

Notations are available. They do not dictate every aspect of singing. They might indicates notes and general gamakas. But the scope for embellishment is much beyond what notation allows.

On the other hand, I can also hear many saying, it is difficult to sing from Pradarshini, an authentic source for Deekshithar krithis. What I wish to say is the mindset that is to be changed.

Please point us to a concert/recording where such authentic singing is done - only to the extent of what is prescribed in the Pradarshini.

I know many who give us a pure music (music that they have learnt and no embellishing any more) in kalpita sangeetham and adhering to the grammar in kalpana sangeetham.

Sounds like robotic music to me, Don't think many (other than the records dept./documentation people) will enjoy it. If you think kalpana sangeetham is primarily about adhering to grammar, think you are missing the forest for the trees.

Starting from the middle of a line and breaking a word meaninglessly

Please don't create strawmen so you can tear them down easily. I was speaking of breaking a compound word meaningfully. Thyagaraja himself starts from middle of line plenty of times.

In what way mrudungam playing influences sahityam or a raga lakshanam ?

Embellishment does not have to influence negatively sahityam or raga laksanam. It can greatly enhance both. Same goes for mrdangam also. Can you at lease concede this?

bhakthim dehi · Post by **bhakthim dehi** » 07 Jan 2018, 17:07

Notations are available. They do not dictate every aspect of singing. They might indicates notes and general gamakas. But the scope for embellishment is much beyond what notation allows.

Are you not contradicting your own statement given in #66?

#66 Re: Sanjay Subramanyan- Music Academy - 27-12-17
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Post by sureshvv » 07 Jan 2018 13:09

Lots of theoretical hand waving ignoring the most important fact which is that there is no notation available for reproducing accurately

We are not discussing on the validity of notations or how they do or do not embellish. As I have mentioned, I dont like to deviate from the topic and I will not try to explain anything more in this line.
I mentioned about notations in the context of tracing back the older versions.
On the other hand, if you need any help regarding notations, I will do it from my side.

Please point us to a concert/recording where such authentic singing is done - only to the extent of what is prescribed in the Pradarshini.

I think TMK has done many lec dem, excrpts of which are available in various sites. also, he has released a CD. If you need the details, I shall provide you.
Another link to many krithis notated in Pradarshini is here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGQxHrqFerg

Sounds like robotic music to me, Don't think many (other than the records dept./documentation people) will enjoy it. If you think kalpana sangeetham is primarily about adhering to grammar, think you are missing the forest for the trees.

Its your personal and subjective opinion. Opinions do vary between the individuals.

I was speaking of breaking a compound word meaningfully. Thyagaraja himself starts from middle of line plenty of times.

I cant get you. Can you please explain me?

Embellishment does not have to influence negatively sahityam or raga laksanam. It can greatly enhance both. Same goes for mrdangam also. Can you at lease concede this?

I think this is out of context. We are discussing only about the embellishments in the sahityam and raga lakshanam.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 07 Jan 2018, 22:35

bhakthim dehi wrote: ↑07 Jan 2018, 17:07 Are you not contradicting your own statement given in #66?

No sir. You chopped away the important relative clause that I ended my sentence with. Here it is in full.

there is no notation available for reproducing accurately and to the last detail even one minute of real concert platform singing, leave alone the accompanists embellishment.

I mentioned about notations in the context of tracing back the older versions.

And my contention is that the notation captures only 50% of whatever that older version was. I remember Chitraveena Ravikiran ji has written about this in detail.

I cant get you. Can you please explain me?

OK. Let us suppose someone starts the Nattai pancharatnam song with "Ananda kaaraka". This is a valid and worthwhile embellishment. This is what I meant by splitting a compound word meaningfully.

Or let us suppose someone starts the Hameer kalyani kriti with Abhimanamu leda. Another kachink

We are discussing only about the embellishments in the sahityam and raga lakshanam.

It looks like you are equating my "embellishment" with "distortion". I don't intend it like that.

bhakthim dehi · Post by **bhakthim dehi** » 08 Jan 2018, 20:00

No sir. You chopped away the important relative clause that I ended my sentence with. Here it is in full.

No..No...My way of replying is misunderstood. Its my usual practise to quote only the part which I need to address. I think that makes my point highlighted and the entire reply can be viewed by others, if required.

And my contention is that the notation captures only 50% of whatever that older version was. I remember Chitraveena Ravikiran ji has written about this in detail.

Much has been discussed in that thread. Contrary to the normal misconception, its a good tool to learn from notations, especially in the absence of oral tradition, if the seeker knows its inherent advantages and disadvantages.

OK. Let us suppose someone starts the Nattai pancharatnam song with "Ananda kaaraka". This is a valid and worthwhile embellishment. This is what I meant by splitting a compound word meaningfully.

Though, ananda karaka looks like a good splitting, meaning is not complete. And by splitting at this point (anandakaraka in jagadananda karaka) violates the rule of prasa. I say it again, if we get connected with the composer (any great composer for that matter) and his saghityam, we never attempt these things. Again, it takes time and till that time it appears only like a subjective opinion.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 08 Jan 2018, 23:39

bhakthim dehi wrote: ↑08 Jan 2018, 20:00
Though, ananda karaka looks like a good splitting, meaning is not complete. And by splitting at this point (anandakaraka in jagadananda karaka) violates the rule of prasa. I say it again, if we get connected with the composer (any great composer for that matter) and his saghityam, we never attempt these things. Again, it takes time and till that time it appears only like a subjective opinion.

IMHO, If you are thinking about the "rule of prasa" when you hear "ananda karaka", you have already disconnected with the composer. Your response should be visceral, not cerebral,

bhakthim dehi · Post by **bhakthim dehi** » 09 Jan 2018, 15:49

IMHO, If you are thinking about the "rule of prasa" when you hear "ananda karaka", you have already disconnected with the composer. Your response should be visceral, not cerebral,

IMHO you have a very shallow understanding of our music. Good prasa lakshanam is a must and is undercurrent in any composition by an Uttama Vaggeyakara. Even in Thyagaraja's compositions, many of which are emotional outpourings, prasa is kept intact.
If you have enjoyed the intellectual usage of letters, excellent wordplay, to cite a few in their compositions, you would have not come out with an example like anandakaraka.
If I can extend this cerebral and visceral analogy, I can definitely say bhakthi and gnanam are both sides of a coin.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 09 Jan 2018, 16:09

The "law of prasa" comes into play only when the full lines are sung consecutively. It is incorrect to say that the law of prasa forbids one from repeating a partial line or phrase for effect. I hope you are not saying that.

And really calling it a "law" is a bit extreme. Rather, it is a lyrical embellishment to be relished.

bhakthim dehi · Post by **bhakthim dehi** » 09 Jan 2018, 16:23

The "law of prasa" comes into play only when the full lines are sung consecutively.

Yes.

It is incorrect to say that the law of prasa forbids one from repeating a partial line or phrase for effect.

Yes. A line can be repeated several times, separating the words according to the rules of sandhi and emphasizing it. But they are usually done while singing neraval, which is a part of kalpana sangeetham. I am not against this and my posts reflect the same.
But this discussion started from the post #66, where starting from middle of a line was mentioned by you as an embellishment.
My response, was only to this embellishment.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 09 Jan 2018, 18:09

Think we are getting closer (all the time)

Would repeating/splitting meaningfully be ok if not in the main neraval? like a mini neraval when singing the kriti?

bhakthim dehi · Post by **bhakthim dehi** » 09 Jan 2018, 18:22

I was mentioning only about starting in between.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 09 Jan 2018, 18:49

Not ok to start with mini neraval?

Not sure if you clicked on the link in one of my previous posts. It was rendering of an ashtapadi. And the artiste started it with the word Madhuradwani for effect. Would you consider this an infraction?

bhakthim dehi · Post by **bhakthim dehi** » 09 Jan 2018, 18:52

Not OK with any embellishments in the kalpitha sangeetham

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 09 Jan 2018, 18:56

mini neraval is not kalpitha sangeetham, right?

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 09 Jan 2018, 19:05

Is there some authority as to what is right and what is not? How much of it is followed? Is it part of the system and are musicians taught it? It seems to be observed in the breach impressionistically speaking, or 'more honoured in its breach' to quote Shakespeare incorrectly, or I would say correctly.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 09 Jan 2018, 19:12

Even when learning from the very same notations, don't pATAntarams differ slightly or more, depending on the guru paramparA? Let us not ascribe this just to recent times. It occurs naturally. Time and imaginative artistes with skill make it happen over the years. If we look at our own evolution as rasikAs and reflect on it, we would know how much we have grown and we need to.Then again, who can pronounce a judgement on it, unless it's just unacceptable for want of any merit?

Great composers and practitioners of music would not have played it safe all the time. They had their creativity which would have urged them to explore more. Otherwise, new rAgAs (of yore) wouldn't have become mainstream today. Solid, time-worn sangatis anchor, and there was room for innovation around them, and that's what happened (MMI would have been something else otherwise!). Today, it makes even more sense--when in the name of music there are more kinds of music than one can imagine. Unless we want to treasure CM in a museum, singing strictly to notations alone seems somewhat outdated. Keeping it alive means there has to be room for exploration--with a serious approach, of course...
Perhaps we forget another thing--a perfect edifice of a concert may not win our hearts, unless it's invested with feeling--which we as rasikAs do know, as that's what moves us.
Otherwise, a perfectly built up concert with all required merits but without bhAva might not be inviting enough to us.
Sorry for bringing bhAvA in, but it's part of the picture, expect when kaNakku vazhakku takes precedence!

Vocalist · Post by **Vocalist** » 09 Jan 2018, 19:18

arasi wrote: ↑09 Jan 2018, 19:12 Even when learning from the very same notations, don't pATAntarams differ slightly or more, depending on the guru paramparA? Let us not ascribe this just to recent times. It occurs naturally. Time and imaginative artistes with skill make it happen over the years. If we look at our own evolution as rasikAs and reflect on it, we would know how much we have grown and we need to.Then again, who can pronounce a judgement on it, unless it's just unacceptable for want of any merit?

Great composers and practitioners of music would not have played it safe all the time. They had their creativity which would have urged them to explore more. Otherwise, new rAgAs (of yore) wouldn't have become mainstream today. Solid, time-worn sangatis anchor, and there was room for innovation around them, and that's what happened (MMI would have been something else otherwise!). Today, it makes even more sense--when in the name of music there are more kinds of music than one can imagine. Unless we want to treasure CM in a museum, singing strictly to notations alone seems somewhat outdated. Keeping it alive means there has to be room for exploration--with a serious approach, of course...
Perhaps we forget another thing--a perfect edifice of a concert may not win our hearts, unless it's invested with feeling--which we as rasikAs do know, as that's what moves us.
Otherwise, a perfectly built up concert with all required merits but without bhAva might not be inviting enough to us.
Sorry for bringing bhAvA in, but it's part of the picture, expect when kaNakku vazhakku takes precedence!

Almost perfectly captures my sentiments (the word "almost" would have been omitted if the letter o was not put in Sanjay's name at the top of your post - which is not visible in my quotation).

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 09 Jan 2018, 19:50

My erratic typing, aided by my old maDik kuzandai*
Sometimes makes words play truant and end up
Hither, thither--even ascend to title of thread!
This time, I checked not, and the titled kalAnidhi
Ended up with an extra letter to his name, o dear!

* lap top

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 09 Jan 2018, 20:31

Aha, 'h' is also missing in his name; luckily his grandfather is not there. He mentioned how his grandfather sent back the progress card to school for correcting the spelling, and he added he could not do the same for rejecting concerts! At last something to come back to the topic even if only nominally.
Post 82 is a fitting finale to the digression, which was interesting, a worthy duel, literary and embellished, hope that usage will not trigger another long debate.

bhakthim dehi · Post by **bhakthim dehi** » 09 Jan 2018, 20:54

Is there some authority as to what is right and what is not?

Do we need some authority or some texts to say that we should not alterthe intellectual property of others? Shameful, even to ask this question.
I made myself clear well before that my discussion is only about embellishing (deteriorating) the compositions of Vaggeyakaras.

Even when learning from the very same notations, don't pATAntarams differ slightly or more, depending on the guru paramparA? Let us not ascribe this just to recent times. It occurs naturally.

Exactly. Some amount of change can be seen between the disciples. This is attributed to the voice range, intellectual content of an aspirant etc. I have even heard, some musicians will not sing a sangathi just because they are unable to grasp what their Guru has taught them. Such an amount of respect we had towards our composer.
This, I think I have addressed this in another thread too (in a discussion with Sri. Ravikiran).
But, this difference will make only for 2-5% if the disciples are sincere.
You can go through the notations for the Deekshithar krithis given in Pradarshsini and Deekshitha Keerthana Prakashika. They are not similar; but a good amount of concordance can be seen between the two texts. In reality, not much difference can be perceived by us when a sincere musician sings a same krithi form these two sources.
This again shows the sincerity of those two authors.
Sri Subbarama Deekshithar and Sri Thirupampuram Nataraja Sundaram Pillai, despite their Vidvat didnt try to embellish. But we, knowing nothing significant in the sangeetha shastram try to do the same. Perhaps, being dumb and ignorant is the reason to think like this.

Time and imaginative artistes with skill make it happen over the years.

If they are so imaginative, why cant they compose a krithi incorporating these beautiful sangathis?
We are in an era, where a person composing a simple poem is considered as a composer. So we dont know the art of tuning a composition.
We are totally unaware of the old phrases in a ragam which were used unanimously in the past by various composers. We have actually destroyed our music in the name of embellishment.

look at our own evolution as rasikAs and reflect on it, we would know how much we have grown and we need to.Then again, who can pronounce a judgement on it, unless it's just unacceptable for want of any merit?

Do we actually learn by these sangathis? What do we gain from these? How to compose a cacophonic sangathi. Is it? This shows how much our taste has deteriorated over the time without we being aware of the fact. As I have said, we dont look into music. We look only into the musicians. Our music is beyond these concerts and performing musicians.
It has a svaroopam on its own. If at all we want to experience that, we can do so only by knowing the way how these composers have experienced them (perhaps by searching for old versions).
Let this be my personal opinion, until majority here understands what I am saying.

Great composers and practitioners of music would not have played it safe all the time. They had their creativity which would have urged them to explore more.

They are unlike us, the present day rasikas or musicians. They are much knowledgable in theoretical and practical music.

Otherwise, new rAgAs (of yore) wouldn't have become mainstream today.

I think you didnt follow me properly. Have I anywhere said they should not try or innovate in Kalpana sangeetham? Have i anywhere said no one should try to compose in new ragas or do an alapanam in a small ragam?

Today, it makes even more sense--when in the name of music there are more kinds of music than one can imagine.

Yes. Carnatic fusion. What a welcome change it is !!

Unless we want to treasure CM in a museum, singing strictly to notations alone seems somewhat outdated.

I always say, notations are to be followed when there is not an oral tradition. In other cases, if we just follow what we have learnt, that will keep our music alive. It might have changed. But, let us at least preserve that and keep continuing to search for the older versions.

Keeping it alive means there has to be room for exploration--with a serious approach, of course...

Can creativity be expressed only in the composition of others. Do read my post #57.

Perhaps we forget another thing--a perfect edifice of a concert may not win our hearts, unless it's invested with feeling--which we as rasikAs do know, as that's what move

By adding sangathis, how do you preserve or improve the bhava? Basic thought and creativity of a composer is lost by adding sangathis and doing any other embellishments.
So, Its like trying to impose your bhavas on others. Also, this bhava can change from one concert to another. So, the listeners must come prepared for this change. Is it?

bhakthim dehi · Post by **bhakthim dehi** » 09 Jan 2018, 20:56

Let me ask you all a question. Suppose a musician feels singing 'swara raga sudha' is Shankarabharanam is more pleasing, and want to embellish it by singing it in Kalyani in one concert and Kambhoji in another concert. Will you all enjoy?

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 09 Jan 2018, 20:58

There is nothing shameful about the question. There is no authority and it is an individual opinion and not binding on musicians.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 09 Jan 2018, 21:01

"Let me ask you all a question. Suppose a musician feels singing 'swara raga sudha' is Shankarabharanam is more pleasing, and want to embellish it by singing it in Kalyani in one concert and Kambhoji in another concert. Will you all enjoy?"
Let someone sing. We will listen and then decide.
As it is there are a few krithis sung in more than one raga.
Nagumomu ragaswarupa was changed by Musiri and is followed by a majority of singers and it does sound sweet.

bhakthim dehi · Post by **bhakthim dehi** » 09 Jan 2018, 21:05

As it is there are a few krithis sung in more than one raga.
Nagumomu ragaswarupa was changed by Musiri and is followed by a majority of singers and it does sound sweet.

THis is to be taken as a subjective comment only.
What is the point in boasting about our music, composition base and its antiquity?

Let someone sing. We will listen and then decide.

I am asking about your subjective opinion; whether you like it or not. I am asking whether such an embellishment will make you feel great about the trend?

Vocalist · Post by **Vocalist** » 09 Jan 2018, 21:27

It might be easier to use a specific instance that has already been tried for a survey point. For example, I have heard playback singer Karthik sing Mahaganapathim (traditionally in Nattai) in what sounded like Jog at the time. Or for a better example, Mari Mari Ninne was rendered in Saramathi in film, but is actually in Kambhoji traditionally.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 09 Jan 2018, 21:40

To your post #87, no, is my answer, bhaktim dehi. That is stretching it too much.
It's far-fetched--like a rasikA claiming T lacked imagination, so he had to resort to the same start to two of his songs: nagumOmu...

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 09 Jan 2018, 21:46

"Let me ask you all a question. Suppose a musician feels singing 'swara raga sudha' is Shankarabharanam is more pleasing, and want to embellish it by singing it in Kalyani in one concert and Kambhoji in another concert. Will you all enjoy?"

kvchellappa wrote: ↑09 Jan 2018, 21:01 Let someone sing. We will listen and then decide.

Well said! This is not a paper/documentation exercise. If someone sings it and it becomes memorable and sticks and someone else sings it and it goes on like that, we would call it evolution. No documentation will be able to stop that process.

And it has already happened for many kritis.

bhakthim dehi · Post by **bhakthim dehi** » 09 Jan 2018, 21:48

Happy that you gave this reply. But, if we are going to embellish further, that imagination will be a reality in the near future. We might or might not witness this. Atleast this forum will stand the time.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 09 Jan 2018, 21:49

Vocalist wrote: ↑09 Jan 2018, 21:27 It might be easier to use a specific instance that has already been tried for a survey point. For example, I have heard playback singer Karthik sing Mahaganapathim (traditionally in Nattai) in what sounded like Jog at the time. Or for a better example, Mari Mari Ninne was rendered in Saramathi in film, but is actually in Kambhoji traditionally.

Don't forget gnanamosagarada and a horde of other examples.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 10 Jan 2018, 01:19

Where is the antiquity for trinty kritis? They are not even three centuries old.
Antiquity may be there in continuity also. Our culture can rightly claim antiquity, but it has changed over time. Tamizh can claim antiquity, but is very different today from what it was, say, in sanga period. Even English today is different from even Shakespeare's time. Antiquity is not to be seen as something fossilised, inanimate. Living things change and change is sign of life.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 10 Jan 2018, 10:02

Dareth thou to ire the keepers of the fortress of custom?
To rattle the locks of the treasury in irreverence?
Let in pretenders to sully its hallowed state?
Nay, refrain! For their curse is mighty, mind!

ram1999 · Post by **ram1999** » 10 Jan 2018, 12:22

kvchellappa wrote: ↑09 Jan 2018, 21:01 "Let me ask you all a question. Suppose a musician feels singing 'swara raga sudha' is Shankarabharanam is more pleasing, and want to embellish it by singing it in Kalyani in one concert and Kambhoji in another concert. Will you all enjoy?"
Let someone sing. We will listen and then decide.
As it is there are a few krithis sung in more than one raga.
Nagumomu ragaswarupa was changed by Musiri and is followed by a majority of singers and it does sound sweet.

It depends !
It has to face the test of time. If I am not mistaken some musician has attempted singing the sri raga pancharatnam in kalyani, but it didnt last long probably as it was not too appealing.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 12 Jan 2018, 08:32

Coming to latter day composers (poets), Bharathi's choice of rAgAs to some of his songs as he sang them, he lets us know by specifying some. It hasn't been adhered to in many instances. AVM film versions have been very pleasing and have been instrumental in popularizing them. However, I don't think most of them were tuned in the named rAgAs. That's why, ADugaLum mADugaLum, Bharathi's plea to Thiru in chakravAgam, in the way Sanjay sings it makes a mark. He started singing it last year. It gained more sheen this year (pADap pADa). It's as appealing too, as kANi nilam vENDum for many (the same theme, but addressed to another deity).

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 12 Jan 2018, 09:45

The thing about "rules" is that you can be 100% sure that they will be tested sooner or later.