tALam question

[Enna_Solven]

I am clueless about tALam but want to become somewhat less clueless. I plan to listen to songs with same tALam and try to become conversant (like the way I learnt to identify rAgams). Probably you think that this guy is not going to go anywhere (=elephant and five blind men), but I would be happy if I can differentiate Adi, rUpakam and misra cApu (too much already?)

The problem is that they are written in different ways in my song collection. I want to group them correctly. I will go nowhere if I don't get it right. My questions are:

1. Some songs simply say Tisram or Tisra nadai or chatusram. Is Adi tALam implicit?
2. Are nadai, laghu and gati different (or should I not go there yet?)
3. Is it chaturasra rUpakam or chatusra rUpakam?
4. cApu implies misra cApu? (or don't go there yet?)
5. In general, can I identify the basic Adi, rUpakam & cApu tALams even with their sub-classifications? or do those sub-classifications change the identity of the basic tALam so much that I will be lost without expert help?
6. Also, do I need to see the hand waving to identify tAlam or is it inherent in sound?

Thank you.

[vasanthakokilam]

>2. Are nadai, laghu and gati different (or should I not go there yet?)

Don't go there, that will only distract from your current goals. Hopefully others will answer your other questions.

[msakella]

Enna_Solven: In our Indian music many technical terms are being mis-spelt or misinterpreted or misused depending upon the knowledge of the user. Even if I give you the correct version some people cry that is incorrect. But, very sadly, people don’t prefer to go through the authentic treatises and correct themselves in this respect. However, I shall try to give the correct version hereunder.

1. Some songs simply say Tisram or Tisra nadai or chatusram. Is Adi tALam implicit?
Chaturashram is mis-spelt as Chatusram by many. None of them indicates Adi-talam.
In South-Indian music 5-terms, Trisram, Chaturashram, Khandam, Mishram and Sankeernam are used representing the value of 3, 4, 5, 7 & 9-units respectively. They can be used either in respect of Laghu where the sounded-beat is followed with finger-counts for the remaining value basing upon the total number of the respective units or they can also be used as sub-units in respect of each main-unit of the Tala.

2. Are nadai, laghu and gati different (or should I not go there yet?)
Even though Nadai and gati are differentiated by some, both indicate the same sub-units to be run in each of the beat or waving-hand or finger-count in a Tala.
Every Tala has its own limbs, Anudruta, Druta, Laghu, Guru, Pluta and Kaakapaada like a person has his own limbs, head, hands, feet etc. While Anudruta always carries only one-unit and demonstrated with a single sounded-beat, Druta always carries two-units and demonstrated with a sounded-beat followed by a waving-hand, Laghu carries different kinds of units basing upon ‘Jaati’, Trisra-jaati of 3-units, Chaturashra-jaati of 4-units, Khanda-jaati of 5-units, Mishra-jaati of 5-units and Sankeerna-jaati of 9-units and demonstrated with a sounded-beat followed by finger-counts for the remaining value of the respective Jaati, Guru carries two-laghus and demonstrated with one sounded-beat and one un-sounded gesture both followed by finger-counts as per the respective-jaati, Pluta carries three-laghus and demonstrated with one sounded-beat and two un-sounded gestures all followed by finger-counts as per the respective-jaati and Kaakapaada carries four-laghus and demonstrated with four un-sounded gestures all followed by finger-counts as per the respective-jaati.

3. Is it chaturasra rUpakam or chatusra rUpakam?
Chaturashsra rUpakam is the correct name and this is being mis-spelt as Chatusra rUpakam by un-knowledgeable people. We can’t help.

4. cApu implies misra cApu? (or don't go there yet?)
cApu always implies Mishra cApu only.


5. In general, can I identify the basic Adi, rUpakam & cApu tALams even with their sub-classifications? or do those sub-classifications change the identity of the basic tALam so much that I will be lost without expert help?
Anybody can easily and certainly identify all the basic Talas even with their sub-classifications. No sub-classification could change the identity of any basic Talam.
To tell the truth, each and every rhythmical-form in the universe has a specific and authentic serial-number of which knowledge has, most unfortunately, been lost many centuries ago. For example, the figure ‘179’ is the only one in the universe and no other figure carries the same value and the same applies to all the rhythmical-forms also.

6. Also, do I need to see the hand waving to identify tAlam or is it inherent in sound?
In Indian music each a every Talam has to be identified with its inherent limbs like sounded-beats or sound-less-waving-hands or sound-less-finger-counts or other gestures. amsharma

[Enna_Solven]

msakella sir,
Thank you very much for the detailed reply. I will do my best to understand what you have written and use it to identify tAlams when I go to concerts.

[vasanthakokilam]

6. Also, do I need to see the hand waving to identify tAlam or is it inherent in sound?
In Indian music each a every Talam has to be identified with its inherent limbs like sounded-beats or sound-less-waving-hands or sound-less-finger-counts or other gestures. amsharma

akellaji, I think E_S is asking if thala is inherent in the sound? In other words, just by listening to the song, can one reverse-engineer the thala from it?

[msakella]

Thank you dear brother-member, vasanthakokilam for guiding me properly at this old age.

Yes, even by listening to the song one can very easily identify the inherent rhythm of the Tala but it needs a lot of rhythmical acquaintance for such deft handling and very few experts only can do so. For example the composition sung in a Tala having 8-kriyas in total and in Chaturashra-gati medium-tempo can easily be identified by many listeners irrespective of different Talas, Chaturashra-triputa (Adi), Chaturashra-eka, Divya-sankeerna-rupaka, Trisra-Mathya, Pakshini-Dhruva, Khanda-Jhampa, Pakshini-Ata carrying the same total of 8-units each.

In my last post, in item No.5, I have accidentally skipped to furnish a detail and I shall give it hereunder.
The knowledge of getting the specific and authentic serial-number of any rhythmical form, which pertains to ‘Talaprastara’ and which has been lost many centuries ago, has recently been resurrected for the benefit of the aspirants. In the absence of this knowledge many authors contributed their might in bringing out Talas carrying the same value of units but with duplicate names. amsharma

[vasanthakokilam]

Thanks msakellaji. If you can, please shed some light on how one can sense the distinction between, say, Adi and Trisra-Mathya, in such a 8 kriya composition.

[msakella]

Dear brother-member, vasanthakokilam, This is a very sensitive problem which cannot be understood by all commoners like the colour-blindness for which there is no medicine nor treatment. I have made umpteen experiments on my students in this respect and I shall try to make you understand the sensitivity of it with some examples though not with the pure subject. In general, we elders are used to spit out the seeds while eating a fruit with seeds but kids cannot do so. In the same manner, if the aspirants are properly trained in rhythmical intricacies of odd-gatis right from their childhood they can enjoy the evenness of 8-kriyas even with the odd-beats of Trisra-Mathya on par with usual Adi-tala. Keeping all such general rhythmical hurdles only in view the 28-Special-rhythmical-exercises furnished in the 287th post of AMS Easy Methods-2007-Teaching/Learning Methods of the main thread Music School have been formulated to properly stabilise and improve the rhythmical abilities of our aspirants right from their childhood.

In fact, all these logical rhythmical exercises are readily available in our great system of Karnataka-music and I shall bow down to any music-teacher who can successfully render the 26th and 27th exercises of them right from the first attempt. But, in which way mostly in-efficients, irrespective of their umpteen inabilities, want to amend the rules and regulations in their favour to remain in power always and rule the country for ever, the same in-efficients in our music also have successfully degraded the system to quantitative-teaching throwing away all such rhythmical intricacies as they can never even handle them successfully leave alone teaching them to the aspirants. Thus, entire syllabi of music on the globe itself have been degraded and producing impotents only but nobody is even able to recognise the loss. amsharma