Usage of "will" and "would"

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 23 Dec 2010, 16:29

I've noticed a tendency on the part of some posters to use the word "would" where "will" is the correct usage. For some stupid reason, this gets under my skin and hence I have to issue this "clarification"

. No offence meant to anyone, just a peeve.

Example 1:

Using "I would attend this event" instead of "I will attend this event".

This is the most common kind of mistake. In this context, "I would" conveys a conditional statement and typically needs some justification as in "I would attend this event if I could, but I won't be in town".

Therefore, the correct usage is "I will attend this event".

Example 2:

There are situations where the usage of "would" need not be conditional. The following is an example of a correct usage:

A native english speaker would puzzle over this peculiar tendency among Indians to use the word "would" instead of "will".

Example 3:

I would make an effort to get this done before the end of the year.

This is often wrongly used to convey personal intent. If you personally intend to get something done, the correct usage is "I will make an effort to get this done before the end of the year". The usage of "would" in this context conveys a recommendation, as in "if it were up to me, I would make an effort to get this done before the end of the year".

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 23 Dec 2010, 16:52

Do you not find this to be usual Tamil- (if not Indian-) English usage? I hear it regularly.

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 23 Dec 2010, 17:37

Quite true Nick but that doesn't make it "right"

.

I understand the wide prevalence of this misconception about the usage of "would" in "Tamil-English" and hence my recommendation is a "soft" one...we should not get carried away by small concerns but it is good personal discipline to strive for the best usage.

I realized that what is even more interesting is the usage of the continuous tense as in "I would be attending this event". In this case, it almost ceases to be a conditional statement but yet is quite faulty and I wince every time I hear it.

So the challenge is to bring people from saying "I would be attending this event" (wrong usage), via "I will be attending this event" (correct but suboptimal usage) to saying "I will attend this event" (the best usage).

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 23 Dec 2010, 18:19

I 'would' throw in 'shall' and 'should' into this bundle.
There are long discussions on these usages in grammar books!

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 23 Dec 2010, 22:33

Where's r-t? It's ages since he and I had a good language argument.

Of course... it'd be just my luck to find we agreed, and there was no argument!

But seriously: yes, uday, you are quite right, althought the one that gets me (because it always makes me do a double take to understand what is being said) is the confusion of up to now and until now.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 24 Dec 2010, 01:26

Uday - I think you are expecting a degree of sophistication that comes many, many stages after one stops translating from one's native tongue into any other language. The peculiar usages make for some fun reading! Come on...don't be a spoil sport!!
If you want to read how this can be hilarious when the translation occurs from Hindi to English, I would highly recommend the books by Tarquin Hall which are full of uproarious comments like 'Don't do tension' - a literal translation of 'tension mat kar' - or, my favorite, 'Don't do urination in the public pool' a translation of 'Public pool mein piSAb mat karO'!!
Having said all that in the purest of jests, I have to tell you (after getting involved in a project to check the adequacy of the tamizh translation of a questionnaire to be administered to patients) that I was amazed at the levels of complexity to the process - it's not funny/easy at all. And finally, what amazed me was that the 'Indian tamizh' version was different from the 'Malaysian tamizh' version...

A very funny example of 'back translation' from English to tamizh is: 'nAn 'phone'ai kizha pODa pOrEn' - from 'I am going to put the phone down'.

Anyway, good luck to you...and here's to hoping that you will make an effort to get this done before the end of the year, and that your efforts do not go to waste!

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 24 Dec 2010, 01:51

and here's to hoping that you will make an effort to get this done

I too was hoping that he would.

(just don't ask me to explain the tenses there! I should be doing tension :$ )

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 24 Dec 2010, 02:58

Nick H wrote: I too was hoping that he would.

I am sure he would, if he could (just as 'he'd rather be a sparrow than a snail...')

Nick H wrote: (just don't ask me to explain the tenses there! I should be doing tension :$ )

LOL!!

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 24 Dec 2010, 06:49

[quote="uday_shankar"]

I've noticed a tendency on the part of some posters to use the word "would" where "will" is the correct usage. For some stupid reason, this gets under my skin and hence I have to issue this "clarification"

. No offence meant to anyone, just a peeve.

Example 1:

Using "I would attend this event" instead of "I will attend this event".

This is the most common kind of mistake. In this context, "I would" conveys a conditional statement and typically needs some justification as in "I would attend this event if I could, but I won't be in town".

Therefore, the correct usage is "I will attend this event".

[quote]

I agree with Uday Shankar on the declining standards in the usage of English.

I myself have been taught to say "I shall" and "We shall" rather than "I will" and "We will".

Thus, Uday Shankar too got under my skin with his "I will".

I am mightily peeved.

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 24 Dec 2010, 09:45

Harimau
I am glad to have gotten under your skin and you can get peeved all you want but there is no substance to your criticism. My crib about the usage of "would" vs "will" pertains to accepted contemporary international english usage. The word "would", as used in Tamil-English, is wrong because a word that denotes conditional intent is used without any qualifier. On the other hand, the distinction between shall and will is minor and has been completely blurred in modern times save in the minds of your Victorian era english instructors. I quote below from a Wikipedia article (admittedly not the final arbitor but just an infomational):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shall_and_will

"...The prescribed usage is largely ignored by American, Irish, and Scottish speakers of English.[2] The Pocket Fowler's Modern English Usage, OUP, 2002, says of the rule for the use of shall and will: "it is unlikely that this rule has ever had any consistent basis of authority in actual usage, and many examples of [British] English in print disregard it". The rule has even less force in American English, where shall has a much more restricted role, and the negative contraction shan't does not occur. In America, "I will" and "we will" are the usual forms, and anyone using "shall" in all but a few situations runs the risk of being thought haughty or pretentious.[3]..."

I challenge you - or more precisely, I would be challenging you

- to find the blurring of "would" and "will" anywhere outside Tamil-English.

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 24 Dec 2010, 10:45

uday,
It has been cryptically pointed out that this is not English Teaching forum. Let us concentrate on something better. You are not very right in your assertions. Fullstop.

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 24 Dec 2010, 11:14

vgovindan wrote: Let us concentrate on something better.

I agree with that.

vgovindan wrote: You are not very right in your assertions.

Common courtesy demands that you substantiate your criticism, otherwise it is irrelevant. Also, if you're saying that my assertions about english usage are wrong, which is quite possilbe, you have violated your own observation that it's not an english teaching forum. You can't act holier than thou and oh by the way, take a potshot on your way out by asserting that "I am wrong"! That's quite unkind.

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 24 Dec 2010, 11:28

uday,
Please note the word 'very' (not very right). It means that 'not all your assertions are right'. Let us not quibble further.

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 24 Dec 2010, 11:45

Fair enough sir.
"Fullstop" after many "falsestarts"

.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 24 Dec 2010, 13:37

I myself have been taught ...

I, myself, personally, am mightily peeved by Harimau's tautology --- and lack of commas!

I have a feeling that I shall I have got over it by the time my next sip of tea is swallowed though.

I have no opinion on the usage of will or shall. My education is obviously lacking on this one.

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 24 Dec 2010, 16:38

Nick H wrote:
I have no opinion on the usage of will or shall. My education is obviously lacking on this one.

The one thing that always distinguishes most Englishmen from Americans is that the Englishman uses his language correctly.

Don't tell me that the standards of education in England are slipping too!

PS. I am of course reminded of Sir Srinivasa Sastri (for whom Sastri Hall is named) who could find fault with even Churchill's English. In one of his famous wartime speeches that Churchill gave over the radio, he is supposed to have said that England would use its "triphibian" forces against the Nazi if they should invade England. Sastri pointed out that "triphibian" to rhyme with"amphibian" is incorrect as the correct prefix to replace "amphi" would be "tri" and not "triphi".

Yes, the standards are indeed falling!

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 24 Dec 2010, 16:43

uday_shankar wrote:
Harimau

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shall_and_will

"...The prescribed usage is largely ignored by American, Irish, and Scottish speakers of English.[2] The Pocket Fowler's Modern English Usage, OUP, 2002, says of the rule for the use of shall and will: "it is unlikely that this rule has ever had any consistent basis of authority in actual usage, and many examples of [British] English in print disregard it". The rule has even less force in American English, where shall has a much more restricted role, and the negative contraction shan't does not occur. In America, "I will" and "we will" are the usual forms, and anyone using "shall" in all but a few situations runs the risk of being thought haughty or pretentious.[3]..."

"Haughty and Pretentious", eh?

Thanks. That would be a good handle for me to use when Harimau gets banned!

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 24 Dec 2010, 19:30

On shall vs will: There's a subtle difference in the meaning between the two.
"I will see you tomorrow" - the speaker is saying he intends to see the other person the next day.
"I shall see you tomorrow" - the speaker is agreeing to see the other person the next day.

This distinction may be lost on today's audience, but it's there all the same.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 24 Dec 2010, 22:23

harimau wrote:The one thing that always distinguishes most Englishmen from Americans is that the Englishman uses his language correctly.

Don't tell me that the standards of education in England are slipping too!

Indeed, they slipped a long time ago. Just take a look at the BBC News website. I use it to keep in touch, but it annoys me as much a it informs me.

The English led the decline: it is from the Scotsman and the Irishman that you can hear good English!

ragam-talam wrote:On shall vs will: There's a subtle difference in the meaning between the two.
"I will see you tomorrow" - the speaker is saying he intends to see the other person the next day.
"I shall see you tomorrow" - the speaker is agreeing to see the other person the next day.

This distinction may be lost on today's audience, but it's there all the same.

I agree

just thinking out loud: will also has more of an element of, err, will. Imagine the words from an irate teacher or boss, "I will see you tomorrow." Shall does not have the same ring to it.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 25 Dec 2010, 06:13

Is there not an element of compulsion in 'shall' as against 'will' ?
'You shall do it' is more compulsive vs 'you will do it'.
Famous example is the commandments, e.g., the first one
I AM THE LORD THY GOD! THOU SHALT HAVE NO OTHER GODS BUT ME!
and the rest...

smala · Post by **smala** » 25 Dec 2010, 08:37

Ha ! Thought the holier-than-thou had no room on this forum but no one seems to have jumped in defense of Sri Govindan yet.

Did skris or someone say anything about a would-be ?
Tambrahm speak or is it Tamglish ?

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 25 Dec 2010, 11:07

Ah, CML... I the gourd thy god am a bitter gourd....

Yes... You have a point, in the context that you quote. Funny language, English!

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 25 Dec 2010, 20:31

SP
The King is dead, Long live the King..
..that is what I would say

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 25 Dec 2010, 21:58

Nick:
It is the Indian bitter gourd you would take to feel healthy
and you will not take the NA bitter gourd which is a watered one but good looking

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 25 Dec 2010, 22:11

I might take just a little.

It is a taste that I have not yet acquired

smala · Post by **smala** » 27 Dec 2010, 03:45

cmlover wrote:Nick:
It is the Indian bitter gourd you would take to feel healthy
and you will not take the NA bitter gourd which is a watered one but good looking

You mean the Chinese cousin, grown in NA.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 27 Dec 2010, 05:41

There is a NA breed which is plumpy and not so bitter. Don't know whether it has a chinese connection or is genetically modified..

smala · Post by **smala** » 27 Dec 2010, 05:48

cmlover wrote:There is a NA breed which is plumpy and not so bitter. Don't know whether it has a chinese connection or is genetically modified..

There is no "NA breed" -- an import variety grown here, that's all.

This is Chinese bitter melon - plumper, less ridges and a paler green (compared with the dark green Indian variety), blunt rounded ends --
yes, barely any bitterness.

Cultivated here in CA, seen in ethnic markets and Chinese farmstands in plenty.

See "China phenotype bitter melon" pic on left.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitter_melon

rasikas.org

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