I wanted to post this in the UKS thread, but felt it would be better off to have it as a separate discussion:
The pet peeve of many carnatic rasikas is to compare their favourite mridangist with a tabla artiste and indicate the superiority of the mridangist in the mathematics department.
It would not be wise to compare a mridanga vidwan with a tabla vidwan, such a comparison would be an a to o comparison because they've not had the same education on talas.
A mridanga vidwan by default has a more thorough (deeper) education on talas, particularly the complicated aspects of it. If a tabla vidwan is able to just manage the complex talas that the mridanga vidwan plays, it is enough credit.
Apart from that, the mridanga and tabla do not seek the same results. It is the nature of the mridanga to impress with the mathematics, as it is the nature of the tabla to sound good.
If a mridanga vidwan played only for hindustani and a tabla vidwan played only for carnatic, the tabla vidwan would (other things being equal) be able to play more complex than the mridanga vidwan.
It's got to do with the (hindustani vs carnatic) environment that conditions the percussion artist. A being that breathes ozone is not automatically superior to one that breathes oxygen, they are evolved differently and can't be compared prima facie.
It's like saying people in the first world are more intelligent than people in the third world. While that's a fact, it is also an unfair comparison
Comparing mridanga and tabla vidwans
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girish_a
- Posts: 432
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 13:33
Great subject, but this quote is very controversial, especially because you say it's a fact. That is quite a sweeping statement to make.Admin wrote: It's like saying people in the first world are more intelligent than people in the third world. While that's a fact, it is also an unfair comparison
The fact is that people in the third world have to always keep thinking about how they will sweat out the next day; so they have very little leeway for other creative and intellectual pursuits. It doesn't mean they are less intelligent (I'm not taking into consideration low IQ due to mal-nourishment; I'm referring to well-fed but not well-off folks).
And to be honest, my first impulse on seeing this line was one of anger.
But let's get back to music.
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srkris
- Site Admin
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It is not my intention to offend any of the mridangists by writing their achievements off to their conditioning/background, or to defend tablaists (a new word coined) without basis.
It's just to spark a conversation on the lines of the education that goes behind producing a mridanga vs tabla vidwan respectively.
It's just to spark a conversation on the lines of the education that goes behind producing a mridanga vs tabla vidwan respectively.
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Nick H
- Posts: 9383
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
According to my little understanding...
The tabla player has a job to do that the mridangist does not. He has to keep time for the soloist. Whilst he can inject his creativity, the basic pattern of his play must be correct for the tal that the soloist has chosen. He must follow this pattern, and to fail to do so would be a major mistake, and might leave the soloist lost.
The tabla player must play for the taal; he cannot play for the song. Much of his time is spent accompanying improvisation anyway, rather than lyrics which he can echo.
In terms of accompanist, I think that comparison of HM tabla and CM mridangam is like comparing apples and pears.
I also think that it is wrong to put mathematics as the main credit of the CM mridangist; the main credit of a CM mridangist is accompaniment. He should understand the tala, of course, and he should be able to keep it, metronome-like, somewhere in his being, but his task is to be sensitive to the song, to the words of the song, to the artist, to the artist's way of delivering the song. Most of this is not mathematics; it is rhythm and aesthetics.
A percentage of the music requires our mridangist to be a mathematician, but no more so than than the vocalist singing calculation-based kalpana swara or multi-speed pallavi, except during his solo, where he has the option to display greater complexity of calculation, and such things as multiple nadais that challenge his very grip on the basic talam.
A tabla artist, playing solo, can also resort to mathematics. I have seen a tabla-led thani include all five nadais. If he is playing for kathak, he probably needs to be a greater mathematician than his Bharatnatyam-accompanying cousin.
I should be interested to know from those better informed about what I might have got wrong here.
On an utterly personal level, I hugely prefer the sound quality of mridangam to that of tabla.
The tabla player has a job to do that the mridangist does not. He has to keep time for the soloist. Whilst he can inject his creativity, the basic pattern of his play must be correct for the tal that the soloist has chosen. He must follow this pattern, and to fail to do so would be a major mistake, and might leave the soloist lost.
The tabla player must play for the taal; he cannot play for the song. Much of his time is spent accompanying improvisation anyway, rather than lyrics which he can echo.
In terms of accompanist, I think that comparison of HM tabla and CM mridangam is like comparing apples and pears.
I also think that it is wrong to put mathematics as the main credit of the CM mridangist; the main credit of a CM mridangist is accompaniment. He should understand the tala, of course, and he should be able to keep it, metronome-like, somewhere in his being, but his task is to be sensitive to the song, to the words of the song, to the artist, to the artist's way of delivering the song. Most of this is not mathematics; it is rhythm and aesthetics.
A percentage of the music requires our mridangist to be a mathematician, but no more so than than the vocalist singing calculation-based kalpana swara or multi-speed pallavi, except during his solo, where he has the option to display greater complexity of calculation, and such things as multiple nadais that challenge his very grip on the basic talam.
A tabla artist, playing solo, can also resort to mathematics. I have seen a tabla-led thani include all five nadais. If he is playing for kathak, he probably needs to be a greater mathematician than his Bharatnatyam-accompanying cousin.
I should be interested to know from those better informed about what I might have got wrong here.
On an utterly personal level, I hugely prefer the sound quality of mridangam to that of tabla.
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vasanthakokilam
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Nick H
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Thank you, Arasi and VK 
I would have to say that not all mridangists would agree with me, or at least that they do not always play as if they do.
Equally, among the tabla players, there are those who seem to believe that they are there only to show off their physical dexterity.
When I say, of the tabla player, that he must keep time for the soloist, it is much more than keeping the beat. The bolls that he plays indicate to the soloist where in the cycle they are, as clearly as having somebody counting in his ear. I'd guess that most rasikas know this, and more --- but just in case of newcomers, I thought I'd expand that point.
.
I would have to say that not all mridangists would agree with me, or at least that they do not always play as if they do.
Equally, among the tabla players, there are those who seem to believe that they are there only to show off their physical dexterity.
When I say, of the tabla player, that he must keep time for the soloist, it is much more than keeping the beat. The bolls that he plays indicate to the soloist where in the cycle they are, as clearly as having somebody counting in his ear. I'd guess that most rasikas know this, and more --- but just in case of newcomers, I thought I'd expand that point.
.
Last edited by Guest on 01 Sep 2009, 04:27, edited 1 time in total.
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srikant1987
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bilahari
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Hmm, my violin teacher told me that during solos, he keeps track of tala internally and doesn't depend on the mrudangam. He said at the initial stages of one's training, it's best to plant a reliable tala-keeper in the front row and follow them. So I think the mrudangist's function does not change for instrumental solos.
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Shivadasan
- Posts: 251
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 07:52
We in South are not familiar with the laya patterns and laya training in HM.
Their basic model is Teen Taal of 16 matras and they practice fitting different beats like, 13,15,17, 21 etc in these 16 matras. They do such exercises in other talas also.
Tabla and Pakhwaj have readymade compositions called ‘bandish’es. They are essentially meant to weave beautiful patterns of sound, but many of them are also built on difficult laya patterns. The purpose the solo is to produce hours of unsullied enjoyment of sound patterns. The Teka is the bol meant for recognising the tala. In the solos they start with a basic composition called Kaida and go on producing improvisations and come back to the Kaida. In accompaniment the tradition has been only to play the Teka to help the musician understand where he is in the tala cycle. When chance is offered, they launch into a brief solo. When there is challenge from the musician (sawal jawab) they reply with equally difficult laya patterns. There is no tradition of following the music composition. It is doubtful whether there is any tradition for solo in mridangam Things have now changed. Tabla solo is on the wane.
Today can any one call Birju Maharaj or Kishan Maharaj or Sitara Devi as lacking in mastery of laya ? Even now, no tablist can match Birju or Sitara. When Birju Maharaj gave demonstration in the Music Academy Experts Committee, the whole audience consisiting of many eminent musicians were aghast. Tiruveezhimlai Subramania Pillai praised him as ‘laya pindam’. It was the same year when Vikku gave his first demonstration as a boy. In yester years, stalwarts like Khante Maharaj reigned supreme. Khante Maharaj had such mastery on laya that very few people were able to keep time for him on the sarangi or harmonium. His use of the left would put to shame any Kanjira player. You can listen to his short record in http://www.sawf.org/library/?d=page&pid=sp95&parent=57
I understand that there was one Kapumama of Goa who was so much immersed in searching the mysteries of Laya that he was considered to have attained divine knowledge of the science of laya. Just like PMI he set out as a lad to find the mysteries of laya, but got so immersed into it that he lost all interest in the world, name or fame and lived and breathed laya only. Rajan Parrikar has done a excellent job in getting a lot of details about him and also some of impossible feats on record also. The web site is
http://www.sawf.org/newedit/edit05282001/musicarts.asp
Some extracts from it are given below.
I asked him, "Mama, I hear that you perform another impossible feat, viz. to stamp out two different talas by your feet, a third and fourth tala with your two hands, and simultaneously recite the bols of a 'fifth tala. Is that true?" He said, "Just watch me - I shall demonstrate it to you." With his left hand he proceeded to beat out the (16 beat) trital, with the right foot zaptal (10 beats), with his right hand dhamar (14 beats), with his left foot chautal (12 beats) while reciting the theka (standard or basic bols) of sawari (15 beats). The five different time cycles accurately terminated on their respective sams without any obvious effort on his part but I found it most taxing to watch what he was doing on all five fronts. The readers might now be in a position to understand the kind of mastery Khaprumama had achieved in the field of layakari...(Prof Deodhar)
By Parrikar
The ParaBrahma tAla with 15.75 beats was a one-of-a-kind creation of his. He made it complete in all respects. Around this tAla he weaved a MahaSudarshan Paran, an extremely difficult tabla composition, that had 125 dha's. Cognoscenti of tAla couldn't believe their ears when they heard it. This feat carried his fame all over the country. In perfecting this tAla, Laya imbued every pore in his body. Deep in sleep, he would move his hands over the floor or on the board, as if playing the MahaSudarshan Paran.
I was speechless, dumbfounded by the unbelievable display.
A chakradhAr with five dha's, some others with seven, eight, nine, ten, fifteen, twenty, all the way upto thirty five and forty dha's, proceeded from his mouth as Vishwambar held the thekA.
There was more - he played a chakradhAr from a tripallavi on the tabla as he vocalised it in reverse and, of course, brought them simultaneously to the sam.
Khansaheb Alladiya Khan presented him with the title "LayaBrahmaBhaskar".
Records
In the first clip below, Khaprumama successively divides the 16-beats Teentala into 9, 10 and 11 mAtrAs following up each sub-division with its dugun (doubling in speed) as well as a short composition for each take.
http://www.sawf.org/audio/khaprumama/khaprumama1.ram
In the second clip, Khaprumama successively divides the 16-beats Teentala into 13, 14 and 15 mAtrAs following up each sub-division with its dugun (sometimes also chaugun) as well as a short composition for each take.
http://www.sawf.org/audio/khaprumama/khaprumama2.ram
In the third clip, Khaprumama recites the bols of the 12-beats Ektala within a Teentala cycle of 16 beats, successively increasing the number of AvartanAs of Ektala within the 16-beats cycle -
http://www.sawf.org/audio/khaprumama/khaprumama3.ram
In the fourth clip, Khaprumama recites some darje in Teentala -
http://www.sawf.org/audio/khaprumama/khaprumama4.ram
Khaprumama had produced a composition having a tihA'i with three dha's around a thekA of 13.5 beats.
Their basic model is Teen Taal of 16 matras and they practice fitting different beats like, 13,15,17, 21 etc in these 16 matras. They do such exercises in other talas also.
Tabla and Pakhwaj have readymade compositions called ‘bandish’es. They are essentially meant to weave beautiful patterns of sound, but many of them are also built on difficult laya patterns. The purpose the solo is to produce hours of unsullied enjoyment of sound patterns. The Teka is the bol meant for recognising the tala. In the solos they start with a basic composition called Kaida and go on producing improvisations and come back to the Kaida. In accompaniment the tradition has been only to play the Teka to help the musician understand where he is in the tala cycle. When chance is offered, they launch into a brief solo. When there is challenge from the musician (sawal jawab) they reply with equally difficult laya patterns. There is no tradition of following the music composition. It is doubtful whether there is any tradition for solo in mridangam Things have now changed. Tabla solo is on the wane.
Today can any one call Birju Maharaj or Kishan Maharaj or Sitara Devi as lacking in mastery of laya ? Even now, no tablist can match Birju or Sitara. When Birju Maharaj gave demonstration in the Music Academy Experts Committee, the whole audience consisiting of many eminent musicians were aghast. Tiruveezhimlai Subramania Pillai praised him as ‘laya pindam’. It was the same year when Vikku gave his first demonstration as a boy. In yester years, stalwarts like Khante Maharaj reigned supreme. Khante Maharaj had such mastery on laya that very few people were able to keep time for him on the sarangi or harmonium. His use of the left would put to shame any Kanjira player. You can listen to his short record in http://www.sawf.org/library/?d=page&pid=sp95&parent=57
I understand that there was one Kapumama of Goa who was so much immersed in searching the mysteries of Laya that he was considered to have attained divine knowledge of the science of laya. Just like PMI he set out as a lad to find the mysteries of laya, but got so immersed into it that he lost all interest in the world, name or fame and lived and breathed laya only. Rajan Parrikar has done a excellent job in getting a lot of details about him and also some of impossible feats on record also. The web site is
http://www.sawf.org/newedit/edit05282001/musicarts.asp
Some extracts from it are given below.
I asked him, "Mama, I hear that you perform another impossible feat, viz. to stamp out two different talas by your feet, a third and fourth tala with your two hands, and simultaneously recite the bols of a 'fifth tala. Is that true?" He said, "Just watch me - I shall demonstrate it to you." With his left hand he proceeded to beat out the (16 beat) trital, with the right foot zaptal (10 beats), with his right hand dhamar (14 beats), with his left foot chautal (12 beats) while reciting the theka (standard or basic bols) of sawari (15 beats). The five different time cycles accurately terminated on their respective sams without any obvious effort on his part but I found it most taxing to watch what he was doing on all five fronts. The readers might now be in a position to understand the kind of mastery Khaprumama had achieved in the field of layakari...(Prof Deodhar)
By Parrikar
The ParaBrahma tAla with 15.75 beats was a one-of-a-kind creation of his. He made it complete in all respects. Around this tAla he weaved a MahaSudarshan Paran, an extremely difficult tabla composition, that had 125 dha's. Cognoscenti of tAla couldn't believe their ears when they heard it. This feat carried his fame all over the country. In perfecting this tAla, Laya imbued every pore in his body. Deep in sleep, he would move his hands over the floor or on the board, as if playing the MahaSudarshan Paran.
I was speechless, dumbfounded by the unbelievable display.
A chakradhAr with five dha's, some others with seven, eight, nine, ten, fifteen, twenty, all the way upto thirty five and forty dha's, proceeded from his mouth as Vishwambar held the thekA.
There was more - he played a chakradhAr from a tripallavi on the tabla as he vocalised it in reverse and, of course, brought them simultaneously to the sam.
Khansaheb Alladiya Khan presented him with the title "LayaBrahmaBhaskar".
Records
In the first clip below, Khaprumama successively divides the 16-beats Teentala into 9, 10 and 11 mAtrAs following up each sub-division with its dugun (doubling in speed) as well as a short composition for each take.
http://www.sawf.org/audio/khaprumama/khaprumama1.ram
In the second clip, Khaprumama successively divides the 16-beats Teentala into 13, 14 and 15 mAtrAs following up each sub-division with its dugun (sometimes also chaugun) as well as a short composition for each take.
http://www.sawf.org/audio/khaprumama/khaprumama2.ram
In the third clip, Khaprumama recites the bols of the 12-beats Ektala within a Teentala cycle of 16 beats, successively increasing the number of AvartanAs of Ektala within the 16-beats cycle -
http://www.sawf.org/audio/khaprumama/khaprumama3.ram
In the fourth clip, Khaprumama recites some darje in Teentala -
http://www.sawf.org/audio/khaprumama/khaprumama4.ram
Khaprumama had produced a composition having a tihA'i with three dha's around a thekA of 13.5 beats.
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knandago2001
- Posts: 645
- Joined: 05 Sep 2006, 10:09
Nick: thanks for highlighting the role of the tabla player in providing the theka during performances of khayal.
the role can change during the accompaniment for thumri, as for example in laggi; moreover in solo recitals (lehras), the repertoire can include specific compositions like the chakradhars, kaedas, or relas. Bickram Ghosh, son and disciple of Pt. Shankar Ghosh (tabla) and also a disciple Sri. S. Sekhar (mridangam), does experiment with both systems in "Rhythmscape" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8gls-H37Bs
Adi tala on the tabla http://www.esnips.com/doc/22c55066-1186 ... n-Adi-Tala
Shivadasan: thanks for reminding me of Khaprumama Parvatkar - the layabhaskar was a major source of inspiration to singers like Smt. Mogubai Kurdikar.
the role can change during the accompaniment for thumri, as for example in laggi; moreover in solo recitals (lehras), the repertoire can include specific compositions like the chakradhars, kaedas, or relas. Bickram Ghosh, son and disciple of Pt. Shankar Ghosh (tabla) and also a disciple Sri. S. Sekhar (mridangam), does experiment with both systems in "Rhythmscape" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8gls-H37Bs
Adi tala on the tabla http://www.esnips.com/doc/22c55066-1186 ... n-Adi-Tala
Shivadasan: thanks for reminding me of Khaprumama Parvatkar - the layabhaskar was a major source of inspiration to singers like Smt. Mogubai Kurdikar.
Last edited by knandago2001 on 01 Sep 2009, 14:44, edited 1 time in total.
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cmlover
- Posts: 11498
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36
Basic question:
Can Tabla be used as an accompaniment in CM?
I mean if Tabla playing retains its style (i.e., not playing mridangam on the Tabla) but adjusts the Tala.
What are the equivalents of standard CM talas in HM (e.g., Adi, Rupaka etc..) ?
Is it possible to play the mridangam on the Tabla (due to the difference in construction) ?
Nick
Thanks a lot for your illuminating comments. You should share more of your understandings which helps us novices immensely!
Can Tabla be used as an accompaniment in CM?
I mean if Tabla playing retains its style (i.e., not playing mridangam on the Tabla) but adjusts the Tala.
What are the equivalents of standard CM talas in HM (e.g., Adi, Rupaka etc..) ?
Is it possible to play the mridangam on the Tabla (due to the difference in construction) ?
Nick
Thanks a lot for your illuminating comments. You should share more of your understandings which helps us novices immensely!
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Nick H
- Posts: 9383
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
Shivadasan elaborates on laya in the life of the tabla player magnificently 
Despite my stated preference for mridangam, which is considerable, there are tabla players such as Kishan Maharaj who have held me spellbound with their solo performance.
Did you mean to mention Birju Maharaj? It is quite possible that you did, as he is an accomplished percussionist as well as a great dancer.
Despite my stated preference for mridangam, which is considerable, there are tabla players such as Kishan Maharaj who have held me spellbound with their solo performance.
Did you mean to mention Birju Maharaj? It is quite possible that you did, as he is an accomplished percussionist as well as a great dancer.
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ugk
- Posts: 17
- Joined: 27 Sep 2009, 17:52
According to late journalist and music critique Subbuddu,
http://www.geocities.com/~maniiyer/impr ... ubbudu.htm
' It would be interesting to evaluate the status of mridangam vis-a-vis other percussion instruments. The pakhwaj is nearest to it in construction though its handling leaves much to be desired. The tabla is hardly a patch on the mridangam the legion of Ustads notwithstanding. I am not being parochial but factual. How can the table be a "percussion" instrument with its two wings separated? Its only advantage is its amenability to high pitch on the right(daina) and a lot of maneuverability on the left(bahan) to produce astounding vibrations. But rhythm and its manifestations , as perfected in the Carnatic idiom, have been evolved to such a high degree of sophistication that the tabla is miles behind the mridangam. Even in jugalbandhis, the mridangam player is brainwashed to play on a low key vis-a-vis the tabla, by not indulging in intricacies of rhythmic fractions. Palghat Raghu admitted to me that when he accompanied Ravi Shankar with Alla Rakha in Bombay, he had perforce to suppress his virtuosity for safeguarding Alla Rakha’s prestige which he, of course, did for a sizable ransom. I know he will not admit this in public.
There is an interesting canard about the evolution of the tabla. It was originally all pakhwaj, the next cousin of mridangam. while a pakhwaj Ustad was playing in a royal household, the king, a follower of the tenets of Koran, was so enraged that he cut the pakhwaj into two. The humiliated artiste thought of the ingenious device of playing separately on both the pieces. The two responded and the courtiers admired. They exclaimed, it appears, Tab bhi bola (even then it spoke) which, in course of time, became tabla.
And, yet Shanta Prasad, the Banaraswalla, had the temerity to state in Madras, at one of his concerts, that the tabla was more ancient than the mridangam as it came direct from Lord Shiva’s Udukkai. My brethren, those spineless wonders in Madras, listened to this pontifical pronouncement with awe and wonder. So much for the tabla.
In conclusion, I reverentially bow to the Lord of Percussion, Palghat Mani Iyer, for the yeomen service he has done to the cause of rhythm.
SUBBUDU
http://www.geocities.com/~maniiyer/impr ... ubbudu.htm
' It would be interesting to evaluate the status of mridangam vis-a-vis other percussion instruments. The pakhwaj is nearest to it in construction though its handling leaves much to be desired. The tabla is hardly a patch on the mridangam the legion of Ustads notwithstanding. I am not being parochial but factual. How can the table be a "percussion" instrument with its two wings separated? Its only advantage is its amenability to high pitch on the right(daina) and a lot of maneuverability on the left(bahan) to produce astounding vibrations. But rhythm and its manifestations , as perfected in the Carnatic idiom, have been evolved to such a high degree of sophistication that the tabla is miles behind the mridangam. Even in jugalbandhis, the mridangam player is brainwashed to play on a low key vis-a-vis the tabla, by not indulging in intricacies of rhythmic fractions. Palghat Raghu admitted to me that when he accompanied Ravi Shankar with Alla Rakha in Bombay, he had perforce to suppress his virtuosity for safeguarding Alla Rakha’s prestige which he, of course, did for a sizable ransom. I know he will not admit this in public.
There is an interesting canard about the evolution of the tabla. It was originally all pakhwaj, the next cousin of mridangam. while a pakhwaj Ustad was playing in a royal household, the king, a follower of the tenets of Koran, was so enraged that he cut the pakhwaj into two. The humiliated artiste thought of the ingenious device of playing separately on both the pieces. The two responded and the courtiers admired. They exclaimed, it appears, Tab bhi bola (even then it spoke) which, in course of time, became tabla.
And, yet Shanta Prasad, the Banaraswalla, had the temerity to state in Madras, at one of his concerts, that the tabla was more ancient than the mridangam as it came direct from Lord Shiva’s Udukkai. My brethren, those spineless wonders in Madras, listened to this pontifical pronouncement with awe and wonder. So much for the tabla.
In conclusion, I reverentially bow to the Lord of Percussion, Palghat Mani Iyer, for the yeomen service he has done to the cause of rhythm.
SUBBUDU
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ugk
- Posts: 17
- Joined: 27 Sep 2009, 17:52
There is a jugalbandhi of Umayalpuram Sivaraman and Kishan Maharaj:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-S1lM8CCIWg
I personally feel that Kishan Maharaj was left stunned by UKS and did not really know what to do.
UKS is like this. He does not take prisoners on the stage. My mridangam guru himself admitted that UKS is like this. When he is on stage
he will usually outperform most of the others on the stage.
I have heard so many jugalbandhis of UKS, Palghat Raghu, Mani Iyer with other instrumentalists. These top notch mridangists are usually too
good. The only instance where this was not the case was with Ganjira Harishankar who was able to match most mridangam players.
The tabla players dont stand much of a chance. They can win applause of the lay audience because they can make flashier sounds on the tabla.
But in terms of sheer complexity and rhythmic genius they fall well short.
Ofcourse this is not their fault. Hindustani music is not designed in the same manner as carnatic.
I also feel that the tabla is too slippery in its sound. I mean that the mridangam hold the beat very well. It has that earthly grounded sound which
is better for laya.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-S1lM8CCIWg
I personally feel that Kishan Maharaj was left stunned by UKS and did not really know what to do.
UKS is like this. He does not take prisoners on the stage. My mridangam guru himself admitted that UKS is like this. When he is on stage
he will usually outperform most of the others on the stage.
I have heard so many jugalbandhis of UKS, Palghat Raghu, Mani Iyer with other instrumentalists. These top notch mridangists are usually too
good. The only instance where this was not the case was with Ganjira Harishankar who was able to match most mridangam players.
The tabla players dont stand much of a chance. They can win applause of the lay audience because they can make flashier sounds on the tabla.
But in terms of sheer complexity and rhythmic genius they fall well short.
Ofcourse this is not their fault. Hindustani music is not designed in the same manner as carnatic.
I also feel that the tabla is too slippery in its sound. I mean that the mridangam hold the beat very well. It has that earthly grounded sound which
is better for laya.
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ugk
- Posts: 17
- Joined: 27 Sep 2009, 17:52
Shivadasan,
You make some comments which sound a bit strange to me. Such as 'It is doubtful whether there is any tradition for solo in mridangam'.
You must be joking right? It is well established fact and even admitted by Hindustani musicians that Carnatic music had Tani Avartanams which they tried to incorporate into Hindustani music.
I have listened to all those tabla players you mention. They still do not come any where near the best mridangists. And when tabla players try complex numbers the sound comes out ugly. This is one of the reasons that Kishan Maharaj is disliked by many other tabla players and fans.
Tabla is not good for highly advanced and dynamic styles which will only sound good on a mridangam.
Tabla is nice for playing linear and more basic styles at high speeds aswell as using alot of Gumaka ('Ge' as they call it in Hindustani music)
That is the bottom line.
The journalist Subbudu summed it up perfectly. He was considered an expert opinion on Hindustani and Carnatic music.
My guru is an accomplished mridangist aswell as a tabla player. He has confirmed all that i am writing here.
You make some comments which sound a bit strange to me. Such as 'It is doubtful whether there is any tradition for solo in mridangam'.
You must be joking right? It is well established fact and even admitted by Hindustani musicians that Carnatic music had Tani Avartanams which they tried to incorporate into Hindustani music.
I have listened to all those tabla players you mention. They still do not come any where near the best mridangists. And when tabla players try complex numbers the sound comes out ugly. This is one of the reasons that Kishan Maharaj is disliked by many other tabla players and fans.
Tabla is not good for highly advanced and dynamic styles which will only sound good on a mridangam.
Tabla is nice for playing linear and more basic styles at high speeds aswell as using alot of Gumaka ('Ge' as they call it in Hindustani music)
That is the bottom line.
The journalist Subbudu summed it up perfectly. He was considered an expert opinion on Hindustani and Carnatic music.
My guru is an accomplished mridangist aswell as a tabla player. He has confirmed all that i am writing here.
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Nick H
- Posts: 9383
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
... me too, and I think I have tried to say that already.
however I have to say that I think that the "great" Subbudu, far from summing anything up perfectly, is talking, in the quote above, a heap of nonsense. I find it hard to get past
He then goes for the last resort --- the justification of mythology.
He speaks of temerity. Humph.
But yes... apples and oranges...
however I have to say that I think that the "great" Subbudu, far from summing anything up perfectly, is talking, in the quote above, a heap of nonsense. I find it hard to get past
All he is saying is that it is, in fact, two percussion instruments --- so so much for his being "factual".I am not being parochial but factual. How can the table be a "percussion" instrument with its two wings separated?
He then goes for the last resort --- the justification of mythology.
He speaks of temerity. Humph.
But yes... apples and oranges...
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Shivadasan
- Posts: 251
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 07:52
Dear UGK,
One needs to appreciate that the Tabla has its status as a solo instrument in Hindustani Music anout which many of us may not be aware. I have studied a little of Tabla and so my information is not based any assumptions or opinions but on information as gathered from tablists.
The tabla solo I am talking about has a long tradition. There are an innumerable number of readymade compositions for tabla. They may be very ancient or composed by great tablists and Pakwaj players like Kudau Singh and Nana panes, which are known as bols, bandishes or cheez. There also many tabla gharanas based on the style of fingering and each gharana value their rare compositions so much that they are taught only to the family members and none else. Earlier these were considered as valuable heirlooms and they were given to the groom in place of ‘dahej’. Because of reluctance of the earlier generations of tablists to part with them they got buried with them. For playing the tabla solos sarangi was used to keep time through what is known as ‘Lehara’ ( a single line of music repeated continuously). There is a provision for manodharma in tabla playing but it is played without changing the traditional structure of the solo pattern. Therefore all tabla solos follow a standard pattern.
Even though I am familiar with many of the aspects of tabla and its terminology, I do not possess authoritative knowledge about the subject. So, I would quote from an article written by , John Ball, who is a musician and musicologist specialising in Indian Music based at the University of Sheffield. (Ref. http://dctorrent.com/f33/vijay-ghate-ta ... al-94642/)
"The solo tabla repertoire consists of a variety of compositional forms, many of which are featured on this recording. The forms can be divided into two broad categories. Firstly, compositions of the ‘theme and variation' type e.g. Peshkar, Kayida and Rela where a rhythmic theme is expanded and permutated using a variety of improvisatory techniques. Usually featured in the first half of the solo, these themes are pre-composed, but designed in a way to allow maximum potential for improvisation, testing the performer's creativity to the limit. Peshkar, the traditional starting point for a tabla solo recital, is an introductory improvisatory form beginning in a slow tempo, concentrating initially on a few select tabla syllables such as na/ta, ge, dha, dhin and tin. Peshkar gradually expands and unfolds introducing the listener to a wider range of phrases and sounds, playing a similar role in tabla solo to that of 'alap' in Indian vocal music, where the soloist progressively acclimatises to the music and the environment in which he or she is performing. Kayida is the main feature of most tabla solo recitals because of its potential for elaboration. It is a composed theme followed by a sequence of improvised variations known as palta played according to set rules. Rela is a fast exciting composition type consisting of a drum roll like effect produced by continuous repetition of just one or two sound syllables. The word Rela is said to have derived from 'rail gadi', which means train. The latter part of the recital most commonly consists of fixed compositions such as Tukra, Gat and Chakradaar, many of which have been inherited from great masters over generations and are therefore highly prized by tabla players."
One needs to appreciate that the Tabla has its status as a solo instrument in Hindustani Music anout which many of us may not be aware. I have studied a little of Tabla and so my information is not based any assumptions or opinions but on information as gathered from tablists.
The tabla solo I am talking about has a long tradition. There are an innumerable number of readymade compositions for tabla. They may be very ancient or composed by great tablists and Pakwaj players like Kudau Singh and Nana panes, which are known as bols, bandishes or cheez. There also many tabla gharanas based on the style of fingering and each gharana value their rare compositions so much that they are taught only to the family members and none else. Earlier these were considered as valuable heirlooms and they were given to the groom in place of ‘dahej’. Because of reluctance of the earlier generations of tablists to part with them they got buried with them. For playing the tabla solos sarangi was used to keep time through what is known as ‘Lehara’ ( a single line of music repeated continuously). There is a provision for manodharma in tabla playing but it is played without changing the traditional structure of the solo pattern. Therefore all tabla solos follow a standard pattern.
Even though I am familiar with many of the aspects of tabla and its terminology, I do not possess authoritative knowledge about the subject. So, I would quote from an article written by , John Ball, who is a musician and musicologist specialising in Indian Music based at the University of Sheffield. (Ref. http://dctorrent.com/f33/vijay-ghate-ta ... al-94642/)
"The solo tabla repertoire consists of a variety of compositional forms, many of which are featured on this recording. The forms can be divided into two broad categories. Firstly, compositions of the ‘theme and variation' type e.g. Peshkar, Kayida and Rela where a rhythmic theme is expanded and permutated using a variety of improvisatory techniques. Usually featured in the first half of the solo, these themes are pre-composed, but designed in a way to allow maximum potential for improvisation, testing the performer's creativity to the limit. Peshkar, the traditional starting point for a tabla solo recital, is an introductory improvisatory form beginning in a slow tempo, concentrating initially on a few select tabla syllables such as na/ta, ge, dha, dhin and tin. Peshkar gradually expands and unfolds introducing the listener to a wider range of phrases and sounds, playing a similar role in tabla solo to that of 'alap' in Indian vocal music, where the soloist progressively acclimatises to the music and the environment in which he or she is performing. Kayida is the main feature of most tabla solo recitals because of its potential for elaboration. It is a composed theme followed by a sequence of improvised variations known as palta played according to set rules. Rela is a fast exciting composition type consisting of a drum roll like effect produced by continuous repetition of just one or two sound syllables. The word Rela is said to have derived from 'rail gadi', which means train. The latter part of the recital most commonly consists of fixed compositions such as Tukra, Gat and Chakradaar, many of which have been inherited from great masters over generations and are therefore highly prized by tabla players."
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thenpaanan
- Posts: 639
- Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 19:45
I guess the honorable Subbudu would not have thought of the 5 or 6-piece Western drum-set as one percussion instrument but five or six.nick H wrote:... me too, and I think I have tried to say that already.
however I have to say that I think that the "great" Subbudu, far from summing anything up perfectly, is talking, in the quote above, a heap of nonsense. I find it hard to get pastAll he is saying is that it is, in fact, two percussion instruments --- so so much for his being "factual".I am not being parochial but factual. How can the table be a "percussion" instrument with its two wings separated?
He then goes for the last resort --- the justification of mythology.
He speaks of temerity. Humph.
But yes... apples and oranges...
But also notice that the argument is classic CM in another aspect: it talks of the playing of complicated rhythm patterns as if _that_ is the primary goal of a percussionist.
-Then Paanan
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cacm
- Posts: 2212
- Joined: 08 Apr 2010, 00:07
I have attended ENOUGH concerts in which Ustad Zakir Hussein playing Tabla has matched & excelled in many cases the Mridangist in the concert for me to say that if a serious comparison has to between made, the BEST should be compared & not practicioners of either Carnatic or North Indian music; For that matter there have been many Jazz drummers like Morelli who have duplicated almost all the moves of any mridangist; The TIMBRE of the instruments have to be taken into account as well as the taste & experience of the listener. But these are complicated areas & physics of the instruments on accoustic & other considerations have to be folded in. Thats why I contend observations of persons like Subbudu who know the stuff but are more interested in selling more copies of their newspapers should be weeded out...Apples are Apples & Oranges are Oranges....VKV
Last edited by cacm on 28 Sep 2009, 20:44, edited 1 time in total.
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vasanthakokilam
- Posts: 10956
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Nick H
- Posts: 9383
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
I agree with vkv.
When we judge mridangists and tabla players, side by side, we are very often judging a mismatched, unprepared, organiser's attempt to sell the most seats. I have often seen tabla players baffled by the carnatic thani format, and doing stuff like playing for half an hour when they should have played only one or two cycles. Some organisers has taken what they see to be a big name, combined it with the carnatic percussionists already on their list, without ever enquiring whether or not the tabla artist is familiar with the the Southern format and repertoire. Frankly, except to the Western kids who know nothing of either, it is an embarrassing failure --- and I wonder if the poor tabla players ever come to know that.
Zakir Hussein is completely at home with the Southern format, and will respect and follow the mridangist as much as he is capable of blasting out into the lead in his own solo show, and I share vkv's admiration and respect for him. Simply, he knows carnatic music and, when that is what is called for, he plays it and does so superbly.
I don't like to talk of mridangist slaying tabla artists, or tabla players slaying mridangists: it is a case of different repertoire. We do not talk about carnatic violinists slaying Hindustani violinists, or vice versa --- but we celebrate those who master both.
Shivadasan; interesting post, much stuff there that I know little or nothing about.
Then Paanan... the drum kit originates from when a really mad maharaja cut the pakawaj into five or six pieces! Point noted about the complexity thing too, although it seems that playing complex patterns is sometimes what it is about. From my novice standpoint, whilst I appreciate that the intellectual complexity is there, it is the musicality of the performance that I seek. This, in another thread, Arvind is able to talk about the combinations that Easwaran played, whilst I just enjoyed the music. There are mridangists that only really appeal to the numbers people. (Of course, I'm envious of Arvind's understanding too...)
When we judge mridangists and tabla players, side by side, we are very often judging a mismatched, unprepared, organiser's attempt to sell the most seats. I have often seen tabla players baffled by the carnatic thani format, and doing stuff like playing for half an hour when they should have played only one or two cycles. Some organisers has taken what they see to be a big name, combined it with the carnatic percussionists already on their list, without ever enquiring whether or not the tabla artist is familiar with the the Southern format and repertoire. Frankly, except to the Western kids who know nothing of either, it is an embarrassing failure --- and I wonder if the poor tabla players ever come to know that.
Zakir Hussein is completely at home with the Southern format, and will respect and follow the mridangist as much as he is capable of blasting out into the lead in his own solo show, and I share vkv's admiration and respect for him. Simply, he knows carnatic music and, when that is what is called for, he plays it and does so superbly.
I don't like to talk of mridangist slaying tabla artists, or tabla players slaying mridangists: it is a case of different repertoire. We do not talk about carnatic violinists slaying Hindustani violinists, or vice versa --- but we celebrate those who master both.
Shivadasan; interesting post, much stuff there that I know little or nothing about.
Then Paanan... the drum kit originates from when a really mad maharaja cut the pakawaj into five or six pieces! Point noted about the complexity thing too, although it seems that playing complex patterns is sometimes what it is about. From my novice standpoint, whilst I appreciate that the intellectual complexity is there, it is the musicality of the performance that I seek. This, in another thread, Arvind is able to talk about the combinations that Easwaran played, whilst I just enjoyed the music. There are mridangists that only really appeal to the numbers people. (Of course, I'm envious of Arvind's understanding too...)
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cacm
- Posts: 2212
- Joined: 08 Apr 2010, 00:07
Let me give a concrete example of a tour of USA by the great Ravi Shankar in the seventies. He had Palghat Raghu on Mridhangam & his usual Tabla accompanist. Because of my regard for Palghat Raghu(who stayed with us) & because Ravi Shankar liked South Indian food & was an expert(liked Mor kozhambu etc- my wife cooked the food for him& Raghu & attended close to 45 days at Licoln Centre& an equivalent no. of concerts in Carnegie hall in NYC. We attended every one of the concerts behind the stage! I attended the discussions about THE CONCERT. Because of the unfamiliarity of the great Tabla artist the THANI had to be done in a piece which was either adi or rupaka thala with Sama Eduppu. For Raghu's greatness it was a come down of huge proportions. However this is what happened: Raghu walked on to the stage with his usual Khadi shirt, Thundu & veshti in his introvert modest manner. The Tabla player with his pointed shoes & majestic, colourful Moghul Shah Jehan type appearance & folded palms appeared walking majestically. The audience of close to a thousand stood up & cheered him! Next when he tuned the Tabla with his silver HAMMER JUST TAPPING on the Tabla there were cheers & a standing ovation before anything happened. Ravi Shankar the genius he is milked it by shaking hands with the Tabla player with his inimitable smile & there was another standing ovation! When the THANI happened Raghu duly "demolished"- in tune with sentiments of some in this forun- the Tabla player because HE WAS PALGHAT RAGHU. However it was the Tabla Player who received the MAXIMUM APPLAUSE after every round!
How do you explain this?
1) You can accept the theory of the famous genius, sage & expert MCENROE that anything that is a public spectacle is ENTERTAINMENT & STATISTICS mostly favours the Least Common Deniminator.
2) If you are NON-JUDGEMENTAL like me you say :people have spoken" & just admire the GREATNESS of Ravi Shankar & Raghu & thank the almighty you are able to admire the genius & were lucky to witness it.
So to me the bottom line is: There are many ways to "skin the cat" & negative statements only expose the ignorance on the part of the person MAKING THEM.....VKV
How do you explain this?
1) You can accept the theory of the famous genius, sage & expert MCENROE that anything that is a public spectacle is ENTERTAINMENT & STATISTICS mostly favours the Least Common Deniminator.
2) If you are NON-JUDGEMENTAL like me you say :people have spoken" & just admire the GREATNESS of Ravi Shankar & Raghu & thank the almighty you are able to admire the genius & were lucky to witness it.
So to me the bottom line is: There are many ways to "skin the cat" & negative statements only expose the ignorance on the part of the person MAKING THEM.....VKV
Last edited by cacm on 29 Sep 2009, 00:13, edited 1 time in total.
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Nick H
- Posts: 9383
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
I don't think it is right for any performer to humiliate another, whether it is by clothes, ego, or musical ability.
You can, of course, say that their reputation and livelihood depend on it, but I have taken it as a lesson that I have seen the London-based musicians, such as Balachandar and Balu Raghuraman, and the ghatam brothers, play for top names one day and small children the next
I don't know what it is about tabla and foreigners (excuse me using the word <blush>) but, there is something about tabla that woos them, and a simple line of tekka produces cheers and applause which, to me, is just embarrassing. I don't remember if I was like that when I first started attending HM concerts; maybe I was. I am the last person to try and work it out, because my preference is so firmly with the mridangam --- but tabla does have that effect, and I guess we just have to live with it.
I recall a London TVG concert in which he spotted a tabla player, known to him, in the audience, invited him on stage and rejigged the post-interval performance as Hindustani. Whilst I was initially disappointed (I had been loving the first half), I was blown away by the music that ensued, including a fantastic second thani, in which the tabla player and the mridangist played wonderfully together.
You can, of course, say that their reputation and livelihood depend on it, but I have taken it as a lesson that I have seen the London-based musicians, such as Balachandar and Balu Raghuraman, and the ghatam brothers, play for top names one day and small children the next
I don't know what it is about tabla and foreigners (excuse me using the word <blush>) but, there is something about tabla that woos them, and a simple line of tekka produces cheers and applause which, to me, is just embarrassing. I don't remember if I was like that when I first started attending HM concerts; maybe I was. I am the last person to try and work it out, because my preference is so firmly with the mridangam --- but tabla does have that effect, and I guess we just have to live with it.
I recall a London TVG concert in which he spotted a tabla player, known to him, in the audience, invited him on stage and rejigged the post-interval performance as Hindustani. Whilst I was initially disappointed (I had been loving the first half), I was blown away by the music that ensued, including a fantastic second thani, in which the tabla player and the mridangist played wonderfully together.
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vasanthakokilam
- Posts: 10956
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
Nick, it is not just foreigners. Couple of years back, I was involved in setting up a team of kid percussionists for a cultural function. There was mridangam, western drums, a few other instruments and a tabla. The composition was set forth by a senior mridangamist. The kids put in a lot of effort during rehearsals to learn the composition, the sequence of play etc. The tabla kid was the one who paid least attention to the rehearsals, he would often get some of the sequences wrong and he could not attend a few of the rehearsals. The program itself was received very well by the non classical music aware south indian audience and they perceived the tabla and the western drums as the best. The tabla sound indeed came out clean, clear and non-complicated. During the first round, the entry of the tabla and the western drums were very captivating and hooksy even though it was the simplest of the sequences. That is what remained in people's minds.I don't know what it is about tabla and foreigners ... there is something about tabla that woos them, and a simple line of tekka produces cheers and applause
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ugk
- Posts: 17
- Joined: 27 Sep 2009, 17:52
vkv43034,
You are correct about the Palghat Raghu playing with Alla Rakha.
I think part of that is here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOVY5YNL9mM
I actually heard rumours from several people that Umayalpuram Sivaraman has expressed annoyance at the fact that the general public is giving excessive applause to tabla players like Zakir Hussain even when they get outplayed by the carnatic drummers.
Even within the tabla community, it is the flashy stuff that gets applause. That is why Zakir Hussain is so famous. He is very good, but he is not in the same league as Pandit Nayan Ghosh or even Anindo Chatterjee. Yet the latter 2 are nowhere near as celebrated or applauded outside the classical community.
I spoke further with my mridangam guru about this issue just a couple of days ago. He said that top mridangam players will often realise that they have to tone down their abilities for fear that the tabla player might get completely stranded. This might result in spoiling the jugalbandhi music overall.
Since my guru is an accomplished tabla player also, he is able to demonstrate to me what he means.
He also laughingly said that a mridangist can give his life playing the most amazing things (Uyira kudduthu vaasiki raddhu in tamil), and all the tabla player player needs to do is play one single exaggerated gumaka ('ge' note with hand slide on bayan) and he will get all the applause.
The funniest thing that happened from my own experience was when i went to see Bala Sir in London play with that tabla player (Misra is his name).
Bala sir did the usual top notch stuff. The tabla player seemed unsure throughout much of his turn, then right at the end he plays a fast rela type not with lots of
Gumaka (Ge syllable) and he gets the applause.
I burst out laughing at the audience. I often go to jugalbandhis expecting this nonsense from the audience now.
It is i think a sign of the world we live in. People want instant gratification. They want white sugar and not brown. They want white bread but not brown.
They would rather throw food in microwave than cook it properly.
It takes some level of real feel for percussion to understand the real brilliance of mridangam.
I remember Palghat Mani Iyer (i think it was him) say that to appreciate real mridangam playing you needed 'Laya Gnyanam'.
You are correct about the Palghat Raghu playing with Alla Rakha.
I think part of that is here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOVY5YNL9mM
I actually heard rumours from several people that Umayalpuram Sivaraman has expressed annoyance at the fact that the general public is giving excessive applause to tabla players like Zakir Hussain even when they get outplayed by the carnatic drummers.
Even within the tabla community, it is the flashy stuff that gets applause. That is why Zakir Hussain is so famous. He is very good, but he is not in the same league as Pandit Nayan Ghosh or even Anindo Chatterjee. Yet the latter 2 are nowhere near as celebrated or applauded outside the classical community.
I spoke further with my mridangam guru about this issue just a couple of days ago. He said that top mridangam players will often realise that they have to tone down their abilities for fear that the tabla player might get completely stranded. This might result in spoiling the jugalbandhi music overall.
Since my guru is an accomplished tabla player also, he is able to demonstrate to me what he means.
He also laughingly said that a mridangist can give his life playing the most amazing things (Uyira kudduthu vaasiki raddhu in tamil), and all the tabla player player needs to do is play one single exaggerated gumaka ('ge' note with hand slide on bayan) and he will get all the applause.
The funniest thing that happened from my own experience was when i went to see Bala Sir in London play with that tabla player (Misra is his name).
Bala sir did the usual top notch stuff. The tabla player seemed unsure throughout much of his turn, then right at the end he plays a fast rela type not with lots of
Gumaka (Ge syllable) and he gets the applause.
I burst out laughing at the audience. I often go to jugalbandhis expecting this nonsense from the audience now.
It is i think a sign of the world we live in. People want instant gratification. They want white sugar and not brown. They want white bread but not brown.
They would rather throw food in microwave than cook it properly.
It takes some level of real feel for percussion to understand the real brilliance of mridangam.
I remember Palghat Mani Iyer (i think it was him) say that to appreciate real mridangam playing you needed 'Laya Gnyanam'.
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Nick H
- Posts: 9383
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
To be celebrated outside the classical HM community, one must play outside of it. Zakir Hussain plays all sorts of music in all sorts of places; that is how he has become famous, and anyone else who successfully did the same thing would also become famous! The fact that Zakir Hussain is a showman by nature makes him a natural in those circumstances, it does not say anything against his musicianship as such.That is why Zakir Hussain is so famous. He is very good, but he is not in the same league as Pandit Nayan Ghosh or even Anindo Chatterjee. Yet the latter 2 are nowhere near as celebrated or applauded outside the classical community.
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cacm
- Posts: 2212
- Joined: 08 Apr 2010, 00:07
Let us not miss .the CRICIAL point he can "play all sorts of music in all sorts of places". Its because he is one of the few who can see the trees in the forest as well as see that the forest comprises trees. Which ever way you slice it he is a GENIUS at what he does. Only a restricted view can refuse to realise& recognise Extra-ordinary talent. Same kind of stuff used to be said about Ravi Shankar who has brought UNIVERSAL GLORY our culture, music, & country & M.S.S. because she could sing in more than 10 languages....VKV
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thenpaanan
- Posts: 639
- Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 19:45
Nick,nick H wrote: I don't know what it is about tabla and foreigners (excuse me using the word <blush>) but, there is something about tabla that woos them, and a simple line of tekka produces cheers and applause which, to me, is just embarrassing.
Leaving aside musical merit or showmanship or all other controversial/sensitive topics, we can discuss the question of whether the tabla is easier to appreciate than the mridangam to an average _untrained_ person for reasons that have nothing to do with the persons playing or the system they adhere to.
I can think of two different candidate explanations, one visual and one aural. First the visual: the fact that the hands of the tabaliya are more visible than those of a mridangam player may make a huge difference in the overall experience even if both players have similar dexterity of fingers. I feel that even though I know something about mridangam playing, I find it hard to see/decode the player's fingers in motion (at least the right hand, the left hand is typically invisible) perhaps because of the angle of vision whereas in the tabla I can see the fingers of both hands very clearly. To an untrained ear, the complexity of the sound may be too much to grasp (especially of the mridangam where there is no lehra to latch your ears on to and the meter is in your head) and the brain simply settles for the visual spectacle.
Second, to my ear and this is totally without scientific evidence, the resonance (actually reverb) of the thoppi tends to blur the aural sharpness of the finger strokes on the other side. Listen to a part of the thani when the thoppi is used a lot and you will notice that the simultaneous strokes on the other side get drowned or if they are heard you will have difficulty separating the sounds -- at least more so than is the case with the tabla. This may make a difference in the perceived speed of playing. Now, I don't know if this is because of (1) a deficiency in my hearing, (ii) an intrinsic aural difference in the sounds of the two instruments due to the difference in composition, or (iii) something to do with the number of pieces.
If (iii) then I bet that having two discrete pieces helps because it is presumably easier to build two resonating systems, one for each half of the range than a single one that has to respond to the whole range, i.e. building a tuned mridangam-like instrument that has to have a resonant right and left is more challenging.
Just an opinion. Feel free to refute.
-Then Paanan
Last edited by thenpaanan on 05 Oct 2009, 00:30, edited 1 time in total.
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Nick H
- Posts: 9383
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
Food for thought... and certainly no refutation!
Just for now, on this "perceived speed of playing" thing generally, I am reminded of a conversation with my mridangam guruji after I had been watching some thavil players. He responded to my perception, "It looks as if they play faster than mridangam, but they don't". Even I have a similar thought about tabla now; it seems faster, but is it? Perhaps the answer is that the lighter physical touch of the instrument (my guruji said, if you can play mridangam, you can play tabla, but if you start with tabla you won't even get a sound out of mridangam at first) facilitates fast play so they use more of it.
Gumaka play on the mridangam is a strange thing: it is almost as if it is designed not to be played that way, whereas tabla is designed and built to facilitate it. I've noticed, by the way, that, on some mridangams, pressing on the left skin produces a change in the sound of the right, due to the compression of the air inside. There is certainly an interaction. I haven't heard it in the same way that you describe, but then I doubt that I can mentally resolve the sounds that precisely ("Play it, Guruji? I can't even think it!")
I have to admit that fast kanjira play has a similar effect on me --- I call it the flutter of a butterfly's wings. It is thrilling, and almost electrical. I certainly don't begrudge people their tabla thrill, I just wish they'd wait until the guy has done a little more than warm up
Just for now, on this "perceived speed of playing" thing generally, I am reminded of a conversation with my mridangam guruji after I had been watching some thavil players. He responded to my perception, "It looks as if they play faster than mridangam, but they don't". Even I have a similar thought about tabla now; it seems faster, but is it? Perhaps the answer is that the lighter physical touch of the instrument (my guruji said, if you can play mridangam, you can play tabla, but if you start with tabla you won't even get a sound out of mridangam at first) facilitates fast play so they use more of it.
Gumaka play on the mridangam is a strange thing: it is almost as if it is designed not to be played that way, whereas tabla is designed and built to facilitate it. I've noticed, by the way, that, on some mridangams, pressing on the left skin produces a change in the sound of the right, due to the compression of the air inside. There is certainly an interaction. I haven't heard it in the same way that you describe, but then I doubt that I can mentally resolve the sounds that precisely ("Play it, Guruji? I can't even think it!")
I have to admit that fast kanjira play has a similar effect on me --- I call it the flutter of a butterfly's wings. It is thrilling, and almost electrical. I certainly don't begrudge people their tabla thrill, I just wish they'd wait until the guy has done a little more than warm up
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thenpaanan
- Posts: 639
- Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 19:45
I have noticed this as well and asked my teacher whether I should keep my hand on the left when I am not playing on the left. He did not give me an emphatic yes or no.nick H wrote:
Gumaka play on the mridangam is a strange thing: it is almost as if it is designed not to be played that way, whereas tabla is designed and built to facilitate it. I've noticed, by the way, that, on some mridangams, pressing on the left skin produces a change in the sound of the right, due to the compression of the air inside. There is certainly an interaction.
The way I see it, if I even put slight pressure on the left, it holds the skin from moving and, as a result, the vibrating column of air inside the mridangam has an altered set of resonance frequencies (it becomes closer to a closed pipe whereas if the left skin is left free to vibrate it moves slightly to an open pipe). I always preferred the sound of my mridangam's right side (especially dhin and chaapu) with my finger on the left skin but this is obviously not permanent when you have to play strokes on the left as well. To my ear I could hear the difference between holding and not and it annoyed me but there was nothing I could do. I had hoped it was specific to my mridangam which was an old hand-me-down, you are the first to tell me it is not a unique thing.
-Then Paanan
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cacm
- Posts: 2212
- Joined: 08 Apr 2010, 00:07
The great Palghat Raghu told me that "nam" comes out right once in a thousand times! As Nick has pointed out(post#38)------ there is a sympathetic reaction resulting in unwanted interferences between the SOUND FROM two sides of the mridangam" resulting in unwanted artifacts in the sound. Tabla is simpler in this respect. VKV
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Nick H
- Posts: 9383
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
I don't know if it is always unwanted? it can produce interesting effects.
In my guruji's school of playing, the basic Thom is produced by playing a simultaneous open-left with Dhin. It gives a very vibrant sound, and I'm sure the internal interaction is part of this.
The mridangam student's second challenge: to get chappu, either full or half, to sound at all (have to admit, though, that a few pro players don't seem to have realised that it should ring).
The mridangam student's next realisation. Neither of these strokes are difficult, once you realise how, but Nam remains a challenge for much, much longer!
In my guruji's school of playing, the basic Thom is produced by playing a simultaneous open-left with Dhin. It gives a very vibrant sound, and I'm sure the internal interaction is part of this.
The mridangam student's first challenge: to get any nadam from the Dhin stroke.The great Palghat Raghu told me that "nam" comes out right once in a thousand times!
The mridangam student's second challenge: to get chappu, either full or half, to sound at all (have to admit, though, that a few pro players don't seem to have realised that it should ring).
The mridangam student's next realisation. Neither of these strokes are difficult, once you realise how, but Nam remains a challenge for much, much longer!