Languages - Indian, English, Inglish, Accents etc.
-
- Posts: 2246
- Joined: 10 Jun 2007, 12:23
-
- Posts: 10956
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
srikant: That may be true to a very limited extent within India. But outside India, the primary goal should be to speak in a clear and understandable manner to the other person.
There are a lot of issues with Indian English ( in general ). I am including myself in this characterization. First of all we speak too fast ( fluency and rapidity are not the same thing ), We mispronounce words, 'v' 'w' sounds get interchanged, lack of proper distinction of sounds for 'th' ( this, that, there etc. ), a question that requires a 'yes' or 'no' answer and a question that requires a general answer both end with a rising tone, 'echo' sounds like 'yucko', syllable emphasis is all over the place and a whole host of such issues. Someone who worked at a call center would have learnt all this and gotten them corrected in a couple of months
Proper English does not have to exactly imitate British or American English, a properly intoned English is the goal. If it sounds different from the general indian Engish, so be it. People will get used to it. I think the Radio and TV news readers in India and some politicians ( Chidambaram? not sure ) have pretty good intonation and may be that is the standard to aspire to.
There are a lot of issues with Indian English ( in general ). I am including myself in this characterization. First of all we speak too fast ( fluency and rapidity are not the same thing ), We mispronounce words, 'v' 'w' sounds get interchanged, lack of proper distinction of sounds for 'th' ( this, that, there etc. ), a question that requires a 'yes' or 'no' answer and a question that requires a general answer both end with a rising tone, 'echo' sounds like 'yucko', syllable emphasis is all over the place and a whole host of such issues. Someone who worked at a call center would have learnt all this and gotten them corrected in a couple of months
Proper English does not have to exactly imitate British or American English, a properly intoned English is the goal. If it sounds different from the general indian Engish, so be it. People will get used to it. I think the Radio and TV news readers in India and some politicians ( Chidambaram? not sure ) have pretty good intonation and may be that is the standard to aspire to.
-
- Posts: 10956
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
-
- Posts: 1896
- Joined: 28 Sep 2006, 02:15
George Galloway's accent is more Scottish than English.coolkarni wrote:BTW the only English accent I enjoyed was the Left Wing British MP Galloway's deposition in front of the US Senate in 2005 , in the Oil for food Scam.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyyGoPerzWc
-
- Posts: 10956
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
-
- Posts: 13754
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:26
vasanthakokilam wrote:There are a lot of issues with Indian English ( in general )
When all that VK's said are done, I still have issues with composition - a liberal and inappropriate use of 'present continuos' is one that comes to mind immediately! And this inordinate need to translate from a native tongue - a problem that is an issue with native speakers of European languages as well....Languages have their flow, and not following these 'rules' make for some interesting patterns - take a simple act of 'putting the phone down' - it is not 'keeping the phone' - and equally, 'phOnai pODa pOrEn' is hilariously inappropriate...
-
- Posts: 10956
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
Good point Ravi and that is a much tougher goal to achieve. It is a continuous process, requires conscious effort and possibly some tutoring help too. One of the most humbling experiences is to have a conversation with a 6 or 7 year old native speakers of English and having their parents 'rephrase' what you just said
-
- Posts: 10956
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
-
- Posts: 1309
- Joined: 12 Oct 2008, 14:10
rshankar wrote:
take a simple act of 'putting the phone down' - it is not 'keeping the phone' - and equally, 'phOnai pODa pOrEn' is hilariously inappropriate...
and with the cell-phone, it isn't even putting down/'keeping the phone'... It is 'pressing' if you want to disconnect the line..! what would that be in tamizh..?
-
- Posts: 10956
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
BTW, 'phOnai pODa pOrEn' in what context? 'phOne call pODa POrEn'?
I am rusty.. but what does 'keeping the phone' mean? To put it down as in 'hanging up the phone'? That is quite odd. Is that a translation of 'phOnai vai'?
I am not sure if "ring" and "engaged" in the phone context are still in Inglish but a joke I remember: "I tried to give her a ring but she was engaged"
I am rusty.. but what does 'keeping the phone' mean? To put it down as in 'hanging up the phone'? That is quite odd. Is that a translation of 'phOnai vai'?
I am not sure if "ring" and "engaged" in the phone context are still in Inglish but a joke I remember: "I tried to give her a ring but she was engaged"
-
- Posts: 1309
- Joined: 12 Oct 2008, 14:10
No..vasanthakokilam wrote:BTW, 'phOnai pODa pOrEn' in what context? 'phOne call pODa POrEn'?
Yes.. I too have heard vekkitumA..? instead of poDaTTumA, which sounds a little threatening..vasanthakokilam wrote:what does 'keeping the phone' mean? To put it down as in 'hanging up the phone'? That is quite odd. Is that a translation of 'phOnai vai'?
what i mean is that vekkitumA etc, which refer to putting the phone/ handset down into the cradle, as a means to disconnect the line, isn't relevant in the case of the mobile, which you can't disconnect by putting down..You need to click/press on a key which disconnects the line.. So vekkituma etc, should be replaced by amuttutumA/amukkutumA..!!bilahari wrote:Eh? I've never heard of "pressing" the cell phone. That would translate to "amutthu" in tamil, and doesn't make sense there either.
Last edited by keerthi on 06 Jul 2009, 10:33, edited 1 time in total.
-
- Posts: 263
- Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 16:25
-
- Posts: 13754
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:26
-
- Posts: 1896
- Joined: 28 Sep 2006, 02:15
-
- Posts: 10956
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
>'phOnai vaikaTTumA?' - gets translated into english as 'shall I keep the phone down?' instead of the appropriate 'shall I put the phone down?'.
OK, I got it now. Given that 'putting the thalam' is used instead of 'keeping the thalam', are we actually interchanging the meaning of 'put' and 'keep'? Are there other examples?
OK, I got it now. Given that 'putting the thalam' is used instead of 'keeping the thalam', are we actually interchanging the meaning of 'put' and 'keep'? Are there other examples?
-
- Posts: 1896
- Joined: 28 Sep 2006, 02:15
-
- Posts: 1896
- Joined: 28 Sep 2006, 02:15
-
- Posts: 2807
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 16:52
Seventh heaven is the highest of the seven heaves ... Check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Heavens
-
- Posts: 1896
- Joined: 28 Sep 2006, 02:15
-
- Posts: 1896
- Joined: 28 Sep 2006, 02:15
For a sample of the lovely Indian accent, see here:
- RK Narayan's 'Malgudi Days' -
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 6302940609
- RK Narayan's 'Malgudi Days' -
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 6302940609
-
- Posts: 4165
- Joined: 21 May 2010, 16:57
Re: Languages - Indian, English, Inglish, Accents etc.
Here is one more aDikkira usage: sAppattukkE 'lottery' aDikkirAn.
-
- Posts: 5009
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:29
Re: Languages - Indian, English, Inglish, Accents etc.
email adikkaRen
-
- Posts: 4165
- Joined: 21 May 2010, 16:57
Re: Languages - Indian, English, Inglish, Accents etc.
kuLirle pallu thanthi aDicha jnapakam varudu.
-
- Posts: 4165
- Joined: 21 May 2010, 16:57
Re: Languages - Indian, English, Inglish, Accents etc.
aDi udavuvathu pOla aNNan tampi udava mAattAr.
Quoting this saying how many times our teachers and elders have whacked us! But ‘aDi’ here does not mean whacking.
aDi means ‘foundation, the foundation on which the family runs’; it refers to ‘WIFE’. The meaning of the above saying is: Brothers will not be able to help you as much as your wife helps!
NOTE: Till a few generations back, ‘aDiE!’ was how one used to call his wife.
Quoting this saying how many times our teachers and elders have whacked us! But ‘aDi’ here does not mean whacking.
aDi means ‘foundation, the foundation on which the family runs’; it refers to ‘WIFE’. The meaning of the above saying is: Brothers will not be able to help you as much as your wife helps!
NOTE: Till a few generations back, ‘aDiE!’ was how one used to call his wife.
-
- Posts: 1896
- Joined: 28 Sep 2006, 02:15
Re: Languages - Indian, English, Inglish, Accents etc.
My favourite Inglish expression: Do the needful.
Conveys the message quite succinctly.
Conveys the message quite succinctly.
-
- Site Admin
- Posts: 3497
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 03:34
-
- Posts: 16792
- Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30
Re: Languages - Indian, English, Inglish, Accents etc.
Just as the old 'kshEmam, kshEmattiRku badil ezhudavum' ('kAlaNA card pODavum' of then and today's 'oru phone aDi')!
-
- Posts: 1896
- Joined: 28 Sep 2006, 02:15
Re: Languages - Indian, English, Inglish, Accents etc.
srkris - that's a great find!
>>Although sometimes parodied as a staple of contemporary South Asian English, the expression was current in both British and American English well into the early 20th century.<<
Wonder if there's any writing from that period that uses this expression.
>>Although sometimes parodied as a staple of contemporary South Asian English, the expression was current in both British and American English well into the early 20th century.<<
Wonder if there's any writing from that period that uses this expression.
-
- Posts: 10956
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
Re: Languages - Indian, English, Inglish, Accents etc.
r-t, one example is this 1920s translation of Tolstoy's Resurrection: http://books.google.com/books?id=7HlFAA ... ul&f=false
Google books is a great resource for the research of this kind.
Surf to books.google.com and search for "Do the needful". You will see some old books that use this expression. And if you have patience, you can sift through the various books google puts up and see the usage dropping off .
Google books is a great resource for the research of this kind.
Surf to books.google.com and search for "Do the needful". You will see some old books that use this expression. And if you have patience, you can sift through the various books google puts up and see the usage dropping off .
-
- Site Admin
- Posts: 3497
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 03:34
Re: Languages - Indian, English, Inglish, Accents etc.
This one is from 1871: "... it is to be hoped that the Provincial Government will do the needful...."ragam-talam wrote:Wonder if there's any writing from that period that uses this expression.
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bi ... 10331.2.14
Such expressions are relics of a bygone era retained in communities that did not originally speak the language.
One can see similar expressions in conservative pockets... like in the Tam-Brahm lingo where the word "aam" (house) is used. It was originally tamil "agam", but then it became aham (not to be confused with the sanskrit aham) and finally aam. Once (many centuries back) this word would have been a part of popular speech among all sections of the society, but the brahmin dialect being one of the most conservative dialects has retained such old tamil words.
Similarly namboodiris use the word "illam" to refer to their house, which would have made perfect sense when kerala was speaking malai tamizh (i.e pre-malayalam). Today it is just a relic word in malayalam.