aThANa

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 19 May 2006, 20:14

Let us discuss rAga aThANa, which I find quite interesting.

To avoid possible repetition of earlier discussions, I will simply summarize the proposals first, and we can discuss further depending on which points you learned gentlemen/ladies find interesting or debatable.

1) aThANa is one of those rAgas that seem to have "fallen through the cracks" of the melakarta-janya classification. Proposal: it is neither a 28th nor 29th melakarta janya, but is most appropriately classified as a 22nd melakarta janya.

2) A widespread view is that there is no relation between the karnatak aThANa and the hindustani aDAna. Proposal: They are quite closely related, and the karnatak aThAna may very well be a modification of the hindustani aDAna.

If these issues have been discussed in the past, and conclusions reached, kindly post/link those if possible.

Best Wishes,
Sangeet Rasik

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 19 May 2006, 21:00

Can you please provide reasons why it would be appropriate to classify under 22nd mela? And also why it is less appropriate under 28 or 29?

Thanks
Arun

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 20 May 2006, 00:28

Is this some kind of a joke

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 20 May 2006, 01:29

http://freepgs.com/carnatic/viewtopic.php?t=109&start=0
Discussion on aTAna

meena · Post by **meena** » 20 May 2006, 03:14

suji ram

thanks for 'searching/looking up first' on the forum

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 20 May 2006, 04:10

http://freepgs.com/carnatic/viewtopic.php?t=109&start=0
Discussion on aTAna

Thanks for the info. I was especially interested in the brief analysis provided by Dr. Shrikaanth:

aThANa is, as CML has correctly summed, a rAga that cannot be reduced to a scale. It is traditionally allocated a ubhaya sampUrNa scale. It is placed under the harikEdAragauLa or harikAmbOdhi mELa. Exceptions are more than the rule. During the present day, aThANa has lot of N3 and is also placed under dhIraSamkarAbharaNa, the 29th mELa. But N2 is invariably associated with D as an anuswara. It can also be placed under kharaharapriya comfortably as G2 also occurs. In places, shades of darbAr are palpably evident.

I will make a detailed post below.

SR

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 20 May 2006, 05:06

To kick off the discussion, here is a brief alapana of rAga aThANa (rendered by myself sometime in the recent past):

http://rapidshare.de/files/20903567/Atana.mp3.html

First let us examine the strength of the existing assignment of this raga to the 29th (as opposed to 28th) melakarta. This bhAshAnga raga superficially admits both the kaishiki (N2) and the kakali (N3) nishadas. The first question is which is the anya swara.

To understand this, let us look at another raga with a similar issue: begaDa. This raga is correctly assigned to the 29th melakarta. The nishada is neither N2 nor N3, but is definitely closer to N3. Moreover, there are almost no prayogas wherein the N2 is individually heard - some musicians attempt this in alapana and encroach upon kAmbhoji. We must note that the authoritative compositions in begaDa, e.g, SrImAta (MD), vallabhanAyakasya (MD), nAdopAsana (T), and SankarI nIve (SS), do not support an individual identity for N2. The N2 is mostly associated with the N3 (e.g., during descent from tara shadja or tara rishabha), creating a kind of "intermediate", and even gamaka-laden (e.g., "S n, d p") nishada. In other cases, it is an oscillation from dhaivata. Furthermore, in some prayogas, the N3 is almost - though not quite - pure: e.g, "m p d p S n R S", or "R S n S d p m d p m g m r". Thus begaDa is a borderline case but just about makes it to the 29th melakarta.

Now in aThANa, the N2 is much more prominent than in begaDa. Many prayogas explicitly use N2, e.g., "p d d n n S", " R S p, d n p", "p d n p m p g ,". The N3 appears clearly in almost no prayogas, and even in these prayogas, an "intermediate" nishada can be substituted (e.g., R S n S d , "). Further, N3 often appears only fleetingly in gamakas (e.g.," m p (n) S" and "S (n) d ,") and never appears with its own identity. Although N2 is often associated with dhaivata, it is not an anuswara but has its own identity. Again, authoritative compositions such as bRhaspate (MD) and SrIkumAranagarAlaye (ST) clarify these issues. Thus, in comparison to BegaDa, the assignment of aThANa to 29th melakartha is weaker. In other words, N3 is more likely the anya swara and not N2.

However, a more reliable assignment must be based on further factors which are often not considered. The first such factor is the gandhara, which is purportedly the antara gandhara (G3). However, this assignment is even weaker than the nishada, since there is in fact no antara gandhara in this raga. The gandhara occurs mostly in the prayoga "m p g, m r s" and also in " m p g , m p". Note the first prayoga: it is a classic kAnaDa phrase, the only difference being that in aThANa, the gandhara is not pulled all the way down from P to sadharana gandhara (G2); however it is definitely not a G3. In addition, it is a highly oscillatory gandhara - another mark of the raison d'etre behind the creation of kAnaDa rAgAnga. We must remember that a rAga is not born merely from a scale of swaras, but from the phraseology arising from relationships between these swaras. In the present case, the gandhara-containing prayoga in aTHANa is clearly in the same spirit as that found in kAnaDa (the reason for this will be soon evident).

At any rate, it is already clear (due to combined effects of nishada and gandhara) the assignment to 29th and even 28th melakarta is extremely weak if not untenable.

This note will be concluded in a separate, following, post to improve readability.

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 20 May 2006, 05:43

The final factor that sheds further light on the origin and assignment of aThANa is the consideration of two hindustani ragas: darbArI kAnaDa and its close ally, aDAna. For those unfamiliar with hindustani sangeet, Rajan Parrikar provides an excellent overview of these two ragas:

http://www.sawf.org/newedit/edit12112000/musicarts.asp

In particular, let us focus on aDANa. If one drops the highly oscillatory and drawn-out sadharana gandhara of darbAri kAnaDa (e.g., "g, , m r s") and replaces it with a shorter one (" g m r s"), and in addition truncates the suddha dhaivata in a similar manner, one has aDANa. In some cases, the dhaivata is omitted altogether.

Very interestingly, there is a debate in hindustani circles regarding the nishada of aDAna, as mentioned by Parrikar:

The value of the Adanic nishAd is of considerable interest. Many vidwAns consider it to be between the nominal komal and shuddha nishAd. This is also the viewpoint embraced by Jha-sahab, in a telling demonstration of the shades of nishAd.

The following demonstration by the hindustani vidvan Ramashreya Jha is extremely interesting (paste link into browser to hear audio file if the URL tag does not show):

http://www.sawf.org/audio/kanada/jha_adana.ram

In fact, this "intermediate" nishada of aDAna is the self-same "intermediate" nishada of aThANa.

Now, observe the lakshaNa of hindustani aDAna in this clip of Bade Ghulam Ali Khan from Parrikar's site:

http://www.sawf.org/audio/kanada/bgak_adana.ram

Forgetting for a moment the suddha dhaivata, it is clear that the lakshaNa is very close to that of aThANa. The opening line of the composition begins with the prayoga: "R, , S n S m p n R S , d n p", which is a legitimate AThANa prayoga. The link between the two ragas is quite clear - of course, the suddha dhaivata creates a difference (see below). Finally, the clip cuts off just as BGAK begins kalpanaswara, but we hear another aThANa-like swaraprastara: "m p S, S n R S , R n S...".

Considering these issues, we can propose the origin for aThANa which also clarifies its melakarta assignment. We already know that the karnatak raga kAnaDa is a northern import, and its form is derived by substitution of the suddha dhaivata (D1) in darbarI kanaDa with chatussruti dhaivata (D2). It is now easy to see how aThANa is similarly derived from aDAna by replacement of its D1 with D2. Thus, both the karnatak ragas kAnaDa and aThANa are logical derivations from the hindustani counterparts darbArI kAnaDa and aDAna respectively.

This also makes clear the assignment of aThANa as 22nd melakarta janya, with both the sadharana gandhara and the kaishiki nishada being subject to a dose of antara gandhara and kakali nishada. We also note a similar tendency in kAnaDa where the kakali nishada appears in certain prayogas (e.g., "R R S n S").

To summarize: the most reliable assignment of the janya of aThANa can be accomplished by a combination of several factors, including: 1) analysis of the nishada and the gandhara, 2) comparison to other ragas in the 29th and 22nd melakarta; 3) comparison to the allied hindustani ragas darbArI kAnada and aDAna and to the karnatak raga kAnaDa. The last factor also reveals the close link of aThANa and aDAna, and its likely origin as a northern raga. Although no single factor allows reliable assignment, the combination of all evidence appears to indicate strongly the 22nd melakarta janya for this fascinating raga aThANa.

SR

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 20 May 2006, 19:46

SR,

Thanks.

my (not that worthy) 2 cents.

I will read through your arguments more thoroughly. But to me, unless G2 is prominent, it generally does not give the feeling of 22nd mela - this is just my perception. I am not sure why and hence perhaps this is not really a worthy counter point - i guess i am trying to see why aTANA to me does not have any feel for 22nd mela. There are indeed ragas under 22nd which skip G2 altogether - prime example is madyamAvati which i have no problem associating with 22! And also assignment to melas need not necessarily associated with feel - although that has been given reason in some cases. So I guess I am already sliding on a slippery slope! But i persist ... L

et us take your argument about connection to kAnaDA and darbAri kAnaDA. Am i right in that in kAnaDa G2 is an important swara and hence a lot more prominent? But in aTANA isnt gandhara an "alpa" swara and sparingly used? And on top of that it is not a standard G2. So would a comparison be as meaningful? In that same light, consider your following quote:

If one drops the highly oscillatory and drawn-out sadharana gandhara of darbAri kAnaDa (e.g., "g, , m r s") and replaces it with a shorter one (" g m r s"),

Isnt this a drastic change to darbAri kAnaDa - this sort of change would pretty much overhaul the signature of darbAri kAnaDa it seems (besides you mention a further morph of D1 too). I mean by this sort of "morphing", you can turn many ragas into many others not necessarily that close and find connections when they dont exist or tenuous at best.

Just want to point that I am probably going into areas I shouldnt and others more knowledgeable (like DrS) would be better suited to discuss this! So i may morph (pun intended!) into a silent observer!

Thanks!
Arun[/quote]

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 20 May 2006, 20:14

Let us take your argument about connection to kAnaDA and darbAri kAnaDA. Am i right in that in kAnaDa G2 is an important swara and hence a lot more prominent? But in aTANA isnt gandhara an "alpa" swara and sparingly used? And on top of that it is not a standard G2. So would a comparison be as meaningful?

Yes, as mentioned above the G2 is important in darbArI kAnaDa, and continues to be so in karnatak kAnaDa. The main "job" is done on the dhaivata (converting it from D1 to D2). This gives the basic form of karnatak kAnaDa. Obviously new lakshaNa develops after doing this.
In converting darbArI kAnaDa to hindustani aDANa, two "jobs" are done:

1) the ponderous G2 is clipped (this is why you also see a rather clipped gandhara in karnatak AThANa) but it still retains the kAnaDa-like behavior. Contrast this with the weak gandhara in a 29th janya, Arabhi. The gandhara in AThANa does not originate from any "job" done on SankarAbharanam/HarikAmbhoji or any 29th/28th janya raga, but rather it clearly shows its kAnaDa origin.

2) the dhaivata is also clipped (and often omitted altogether in the Arohana). When you take this hindustani ADANa and again convert the D1 to D2, you get the basic form of karnatak aThANa. In my mind the kAnaDa-core of AThANa are unmistakeable and it does not fit in at all with any of the janyas of 29th or 28th melakarta.

Isnt this a drastic change to darbAri kAnaDa - this sort of change would pretty much overhaul the signature of darbAri kAnaDa it seems (besides you mention a further morph of D1 too). I mean by this sort of "morphing", you can turn many ragas into many others not necessarily that close and find connections when they dont exist or tenuous at best.

This is the beauty of rAga-sangeet and bharatiya shastriya sangeet in general. It is also the crux behind the creation of new ragas, especially those of complex character. The new rAgas develop their own lakshaNa. Nobody can say "kAnaDa is just darbArI with D2", but still there is a clear logic behind creation of new ragas based on tuning of the key phrases of parent ragas, and this logic is embedded in the new raga, even though on the surface it may seem only tenuously related to the previous one. Think of it as "musical DNA".

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 20 May 2006, 21:45

SR,

the ponderous G2 is clipped (this is why you also see a rather clipped gandhara in karnatak AThANa) but it still retains the kAnaDa-like behavior. Contrast this with the weak gandhara in a 29th janya, Arabhi. The gandhara in AThANa does not originate from any "job" done on SankarAbharanam/HarikAmbhoji or any 29th/28th janya raga, but rather it clearly shows its kAnaDa origin.

I am saying that I do not really (as?) much connection between the gandara or kAnaDA and aTANA (:-). You are implying a pretty clear connection (which also seems the "seed" for your theory). I definitely am not seeing that. Saying it another way even if the ga connection to 29/28 is weak, i am not seeing a strong connection to 22.

This is the beauty of rAga-sangeet and bharatiya shastriya sangeet in general. It is also the crux behind the creation of new ragas, especially those of complex character. The new rAgas develop their own lakshaNa. Nobody can say "kAnaDa is just darbArI with D2", but still there is a clear logic behind creation of new ragas based on tuning of the key phrases of parent ragas, and this logic is embedded in the new raga, even though on the surface it may seem only tenuously related to the previous one. Think of it as "musical DNA

Again I guess I have to disagree. Yes you can derive new ragas from one to another by morphing swaras and there is of course history behind it (albeit somewhat speculative), but i am not sure it is broadly applicable. Also in particular, in this case I am unable to see as coherent a connection/logic that you are seeing. The nomenclature similarity between different ragas in HM and CM is also a can of worms - it seems to have enough wild discrepancies to be used as a reliable indicator of "exchange" of ragas between the two, or suggestions that a raga in one system was the "parent" of raga in another system.

Arun

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 20 May 2006, 22:20

I am saying that I do not really (as?) much connection between the gandara or kAnaDA and aTANA (:-). You are implying a pretty clear connection (which also seems the "seed" for your theory). I definitely am not seeing that. Saying it another way even if the ga connection to 29/28 is weak, i am not seeing a strong connection to 22.

You may not see it instantly. I did not arrive at this theory suddenly either. You may see things clearly if you examine carefully the material I provided above.

Maybe I should record a demo as well.

Consider another angle:

In hindustani darbArI kAnaDa there are two main themes: in the pUrvAnga the main theme is :"m p g , , m r , s". In the uttarAnga the main theme is "p n p" or some variation thereof (e.g., "p d n p" or "m d n p").

To convert to aDANa, the pUrvAnga theme is weakened deliberately, i.e. the "m p g , , m r s" is discarded and replaced with a weak "g m r s". Moreover (and this is important) aDANa is mainly an uttarAnga rAga, i.e. the "g m r s" is not often used. In direct analogy, the karnatak aThANa also has a greatly withered pUrvAnga prayoga "m p g m r s" and is also a uttarAnga rAga.

In other words most prayogas in aDANa and aThANa do not go below madhyama (also correctly observed by Dr. Shrikaanth), and if they do, the intent is to quickly scramble back to P or D (see also the brief alapana provided, in which the gandhara almost does not exist).

As I said, consideration of several factors is required. My proposal is not just based on one point, neither on the similarity in the names (although as it turns out, it is far from coincidental !).

SR

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 20 May 2006, 22:29

Dear SR

I tend to agree with Arun. I am also carefully following your theoretical arguments which are valid. But many of us feel that aTaNa is not a ragam which can be described by the mUrccana. It is indeed the phrases that count. The proof of the pudding is in eating. Do please identify the sancaaram where aTaNa sounds like K or DK! I hear your lovely aTaNa and my aging ears were unable to capture even a ghost of K or DK. Could you identify using a timeline area which conforms to your theory. If necessary do a fresh sancaaram to make your point. Thanks!

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 20 May 2006, 23:08

Dear SR

I tend to agree with Arun. I am also carefully following your theoretical arguments which are valid. But many of us feel that aTaNa is not a ragam which can be described by the mUrccana. It is indeed the phrases that count. The proof of the pudding is in eating. Do please identify the sancaaram where aTaNa sounds like K or DK! I hear your lovely aTaNa and my aging ears were unable to capture even a ghost of K or DK. Could you identify using a timeline area which conforms to your theory. If necessary do a fresh sancaaram to make your point. Thanks!

CMlover,

I believe my point was missed.

pUrvAnga: aThANa does not sound like kAnaDa or darbArI, precisely because the rationale of the darbArI ---> aDANa conversion in hindustani sangeet is to deliberately weaken the "m p g , , m r s" phrase which in characteristic of K and DK. In both aDANa and aThANa, the " m p g m r s" phrase is therefore weak.

In my alapana, this phrase " m p g, m" or "m p g m r s" or "g m r s" appears at locations such as 0:13, 0:28, 1:19, 1:28, 2:02.

uttarAnga: Again, aThANa strongly resembles aDANa, which itself is a morph of DK. You will not see K and DK in aThANa except in more abstract terms - that is the whole point. On the other hand, extended aDANa-like prayogas (of course, with D2 instead of D1 where relevant) are dime-a-dozen:

The opening phrase itself: " m p S, , S n R S n S d, n p" at 0:01.

"m p n S R S" at 0:41.

"p R, S n p d n p" at 1:31.

SR

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 21 May 2006, 00:05

aThANa has been used in CM for more than 400 years(4 centuries). And its swarUpa has undergone quite a bit of change during this time. During the time of venkaTamakhi and muddu venkaTamakhi the ArOhaNa was said to be krama sampUrNa. (muddu)venkaTamakhi's gIte starts on "GPDS" which is completely different from what we sing today:- "SRMPNS" with "PDNS" also occuring. gANdhArA also appears to have been quite prominent then. So you cannot simply conjencture by looking at how aThaNa is today and "conclude" that it was derived from another rAga.

As N2 is more prominent and always occurs as an anusawara of D2, this was placed under the 28th mELa hari kEdAragauLa/harikAmbOdhi. Also D is swung upwards towards S similar to rAgas like kannaDa which is another good reason why both are placed under the same mELa- 28th. N3 was treated as the foreign note. G2, G3 and intermediate frequencies occur in the rAga. Unlike in kAnaDa where G is associated with R2, in aThANa G is asscoiated with the higher notes-P or M. This is a crucial difference.

By simply replacing 1 or more swaras with another and changing the gamakas on each swara, literally any rAga can be derived from another imaginarily(Arun has already made this point). The derivation of aThANa from HM aDANa comes under this category. But that is not how things work in reality.

You cannot draw anologies between kAnaDa and aThANa. kANaDa does have a resemblance to darbArI kANaDa but no such resemblance is made out on hearing aThANa and aDANa side by side.

I have some questions for you

1) How old is aDANa in HM?

2) For discussion sake- What makes you convinced that CM aTHANa was derived from HM aDANA and NOT the other way round?
In our own times, we have seen abhOgi being borrowed from CM and given kAnaDA ang and sung as abhOgi kAnaDA. SO it is well possble that aThANa was borrowed and given kAnaDa signature and sung as a lighter version of darbAr kANaDa.

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 21 May 2006, 01:10

aThANa has been used in CM for more than 400 years(4 centuries). And its swarUpa has undergone quite a bit of change during this time. During the time of venkaTamakhi and muddu venkaTamakhi the ArOhaNa was said to be krama sampUrNa. (muddu)venkaTamakhi's gIte starts on "GPDS" which is completely different from what we sing today:- "SRMPNS" with "PDNS" also occuring. gANdhArA also appears to have been quite prominent then. So you cannot simply conjencture by looking at how aThaNa is today and "conclude" that it was derived from another rAga.

I am referring to what is called aThANa for the last 250 years. Dikshitar, Tyagaraja etc have composed in the present form of aThANa. Purandaradasa's "sakalagrha" is today sung in aThANa, though we do not know what its original raga was.

Also, just to clarify - my argument is not a conjecture - it is supported by logic and fact.

As N2 is more prominent and always occurs as an anusawara of D2, this was placed under the 28th mELa hari kEdAragauLa/harikAmbOdhi. Also D is swung upwards towards S similar to rAgas like kannaDa which is another good reason why both are placed under the same mELa- 28th. N3 was treated as the foreign note. G2, G3 and intermediate frequencies occur in the rAga.

N2 is not an anuswara of D2 in aThANa. Your argument for assigning 28th melakarta sounds somewhat arbitrary. G3 (if it even exists in aThANa) and N3 are anya swaras.

Unlike in kAnaDa where G is associated with R2, in aThANa G is asscoiated with the higher notes-P or M. This is a crucial difference.

In kAnaDa, G2 is not directly associated with R2. This is too simplistic. In kAnaDa, the key pUrvAnga phrase is " G, M R S" and the connection to the uttarAnga is with phrases like "G M D N P". Again, one is missing the point by trying to compare aThANa with kAnaDa in any way except for the "m p g m r s" or "m p g m".

By simply replacing 1 or more swaras with another and changing the gamakas on each swara, literally any rAga can be derived from another imaginarily(Arun has already made this point). The derivation of aThANa from HM aDANa comes under this category. But that is not how things work in reality.

Dr. Shrikaanth, your interpretation of my argument is not accurate. As I have said several times, it is not simply a question of replacing swaras here and there. The derivation is much more complex - but also much more sound - that what you make it out to be.

You cannot draw anologies between kAnaDa and aThANa. kANaDa does have a resemblance to darbArI kANaDa but no such resemblance is made out on hearing aThANa and aDANa side by side.

Would you please present substantial evidence to back up this claim. I have already mentioned how the weak pUrvAnga phrase "m p g, m r s" is related to kAnaDa and how it is manipulated. What about the several prayogas that I pointed out ? One cannot simply wish away these aspects, which are core to indian music.

It is true that ragas are surrounded by a lot of mythology and legend, but in essence they do not develop "accidentally" (especially complex ones). They develop through the very process I demonstrated above, which is central to the Indian musical intellect and philosophy. One cannot ignore it.

Perhaps an obstacle is the fact that we usually take ragas "for granted" (especially old ones) and in our karnatak sangeet education/training, there is not always enough insight on how janya ragas came into existence. In Indian music there is a difference between classification (which occurred after the fact, for example the melakarta or thaat systems) and genealogy of ragas. The modern karnatak system places emphasis on rigorous classification but not so much on genealogy, whereas the hindustani system is the opposite (the classifications are fairly loose, but the genealogy is very important).

Returning to the aThANa-aDANa comparison, I have pointed out not only the logical derivation based upon sound principles of Indian raga sangeet, but also several prayogas of similarity. You cannot wish them away.

1) How old is aDANa in HM?

aDANa (in present form), like darbArI kAnaDa, is believed to be a creation of Tansen (mid-1550s).

2) For discussion sake- What makes you convinced that CM aTHANa was derived from HM aDANA and NOT the other way round?

Please see my entire discussion - I derived aThANa from hindustani aDANa based on similar principles that drive the derivation of kAnaDa from darbArI. How is the reverse accomplished ?

SO it is well possble that aThANa was borrowed and given kAnaDa signature and sung as a lighter version of darbAr kANaDa.

This is highly unlikely (although anything is technically possible). In hindustani music, it is well established - based on principles of derivation of ragas - as to how aDANa was derived from darbArI kAnaDa. This is a well-known and standard practice in hindustani sangeet.

Besides, according to you, the old aThANa did not even look like the present one, so when do you propose this borrowal actually happened ?

And suppose this did happen, are you then agreeing that there is indeed a melodic link between aThaNa and aDANa (albeit in reverse) ?

Regarding abhogi - you are absolutely correct. The import has occurred much more recently and is well documented. Nobody in HM claims that this is a northern rAga. Also, it is well known that the kAnaDa concept itself originated from Southern India (this is clear from the name itself). This was during the time when there was no clear separation of hindustani and karnatak music. At the same time, the darbArI kAnaDa is a northern invention from this old kAnaDa, and was re-adapted back to the south in the form of what is called kAnaDa today in karnatak sangeet.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 21 May 2006, 01:12

I have to listen to those timelines but just an imbedded phrase is not enough proof. The two points that bother me which have been nicely responded by DRS is the use of the gaandhaaram which is alpa in 'present day' aTANa vis-a-vis Kaanadaa; the other is the mood of the raga - whereas aTaNa evokes the veera rasa K and primarily DK evoke dhainya which appear incompatible. I am sure our laterday composers used aTANa primarily for its mood and I can vouch for it from its employ in a number of harikathas. Try singing 'baalakanaga' in DK and you will get my point. Even in the movies IR used aTANa very effectively to display the 'challenge'(or recalcitrance) element!

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 21 May 2006, 01:17

I have to listen to those timelines but just an imbedded phrase is not enough proof. The two points that bother me which have been nicely responded by DRS is the use of the gaandhaaram which is alpa in 'present day' aTANa vis-a-vis Kaanadaa; the other is the mood of the raga - whereas aTaNa evokes the veera rasa K and primarily DK evoke dhainya which appear incompatible. I am sure our laterday composers used aTANa primarily for its mood and I can vouch for it from its employ in a number of harikathas. Try singing 'baalakanaga' in DK and you will get my point. Even in the movies IR used aTANa very effectively to display the 'challenge'(or recalcitrance) element!

If you are still trying to compare aThANa to kAnaDa, it is unlikely that you will see the crux of the argument! I don't understand what the purpose of trying to compare aThANa directly with K and DK is.

By the way - in hindustani sangeet, aDANa is also used to portray the vIra rasa.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 21 May 2006, 01:47

I am referring to what is called aThANa for the last 250 years. Dikshitar, Tyagaraja etc have composed in the present form of aThANa. Purandaradasa's "sakalagrha" is today sung in aThANa, though we do not know what its original raga was.

So are you wishing away the fact that aThANa existed even earlier than 250 years. So the original aThANa ceased to exist and aDANa was borrowed wholesale and had several of its swaras replaed and morphed to yield the aThANa of today. Is this your argument?

Also, just to clarify - my argument is not a conjecture - it is supported by logic and fact.

It does not appear logical to us. And what facts are you alluding to?

N2 is not an anuswara of D2 in aThANa. Your argument for assigning 28th melakarta sounds somewhat arbitrary. G3 (if it even exists in aThANa) and N3 are anya swaras.

You misinterpreted my statement. Let me clarify. D2 is Always accompanied by anuswAra of N2. I did not imply that N2 only occurs as anuswara to D2. N2 is an independent note in its own right in aThANa.
G3 is sung very clearly in the tArasthAyi in aTHANa. There can be no doubt about its presence or identity here.

In kAnaDa, G2 is not directly associated with R2. This is too simplistic. In kAnaDa, the key pUrvAnga phrase is " G, M R S" and the connection to the uttarAnga is with phrases like "G M D N P". Again, one is missing the point by trying to compare aThANa with kAnaDa in any way except for the "m p g m r s" or "m p g m".

It is not simplistic. That is what gamakas are about. And there is certainly a difference in the gamaka on G as I have explained.

Dr. Shrikaanth, your interpretation of my argument is not accurate. As I have said several times, it is not simply a question of replacing swaras here and there. The derivation is much more complex - but also much more sound - that what you make it out to be.

I have followed all your arguments. Try and see what i am saying.

Would you please present substantial evidence to back up this claim. I have already mentioned how the weak pUrvAnga phrase "m p g, m r s" is related to kAnaDa and how it is manipulated. What about the several prayogas that I pointed out ? One cannot simply wish away these aspects, which are core to indian music.

What evidence? There is no way aThANa can be heard as resembling aDANa. ARe you saying that just because a phrase such as "MPGMRS" or "DNP" occurs in different rAgas, they have got to be evolutionarily related; even regardless of different swarasthAnas?

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 21 May 2006, 01:48

aDANa (in present form), like darbArI kAnaDa, is believed to be a creation of Tansen (mid-1550s).

Ok. So aThANa has been around for at least as much time as aDANa(taking CDP as cut off as I dont have other texts to refer to). Now are you trying to say that Sothern musicians borrowed aDANa the moment Tansen conceived it? A rAga takes years for its potential to be explored and for it to gain some status. aDANa was not born in a day. Likewise, aTHANa is mentioned in a treatise which means it should have been around for a good while before that to have gained that status.

Please see my entire discussion - I derived aThANa from hindustani aDANa based on similar principles that drive the derivation of kAnaDa from darbArI. How is the reverse accomplished ?

The reverse is accomplished in just the viceversa way that you did. That should be logical to you.

Besides, according to you, the old aThANa did not even look like the present one, so when do you propose this borrowal actually happened ?

Hello. Do you see the weakness in your argument here? If you can argue one way that as the structure was different it could not have given rise to aDANa, how can you argue that th reverse is true?

And suppose this did happen, are you then agreeing that there is indeed a melodic link between aThaNa and aDANa (albeit in reverse) ?

I have answered this before. The 2 are and sound very different.

Nobody in HM claims that this is a northern rAga. Also, it is well known that the kAnaDa concept itself originated from Southern India today in karnatak sangeet.

Yes but someone like you could come up 4 centuries later and claim exactly that. Do you follow me?

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 21 May 2006, 01:53

Your argument for assigning 28th melakarta sounds somewhat arbitrary. G3 (if it even exists in aThANa) and N3 are anya swaras.

It is not simply my argument. That is what is mentioned in the SSP. ANd it is sound logic too. You do not see D being treated that way in the 22nd mELa or any of its derivatives as far as I can recall. But this is very common in janyas of the 28th and 29th mELa.

The bottom line is aThANa is a rAga that cannot be classified under any one mELa and is hence best left alone. One would not achive a great deal by shifting it to 22nd mELa.

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 21 May 2006, 02:14

So are you wishing away the fact that aThANa existed even earlier than 250 years. So the original aThANa ceased to exist and aDANa was borrowed wholesale and had several of its swaras replaed and morphed to yield the aThANa of today. Is this your argument?

I am not wishing away anything. That the original karnatak aThANa ceased to exist is clear to all - including yourself. The current aThANa is not what was earlier called by the same name.

Saying that a raga was borrowed "wholesale" is simplistic except in very few cases. I am saying - essentially, although it is a bit more complex - that the current aThANa is derived from aDANa. Essentially only one swara is replaced (D1 with D2) - just like HM darbArI ---> CM kAnaDa. What "several swaras" are you referring to ?

N2 is an independent note in its own right in aThANa.

Great - we agree on this! Also, N3 is much less prominent than in borderline 29ers like begaDa. So 29th melakarta is eliminated then, and the only question is between 28 and 22.

G3 is sung very clearly in the tArasthAyi in aTHANa. There can be no doubt about its presence or identity here.

Can you point me to a major composition that portrays the G3 in the clear light that you mention ? And at what location ? A recording if available would be very useful.

It is not simplistic. That is what gamakas are about. And there is certainly a difference in the gamaka on G as I have explained.

Of course there is a difference - I agree with you. Maybe there is some genuine misunderstanding here. I have already mentioned in detail that the G2 in aThANa (as in the M P G M R S and M P G M P phrases) is only a weak form of the kAnaDa concept. That is why it is related to aDANa (not directly to kAnaDa) which similarly carries the weak form derived from darbArI kAnaDa. I think CMlover also has the same misunderstanding.

What evidence? There is no way aThANa can be heard as resembling aDANa. ARe you saying that just because a phrase such as "MPGMRS" or "DNP" occurs in different rAgas, they have got to be evolutionarily related; even regardless of different swarasthAnas?

Again, I am just hearing a "no way" without more substance. Once more, the pUrvAnga "m p g m r s" phrase is just a side-show (albeit a significant one). I don't understand why it is so important, given that both aThANa and aDANa are uttarAnga ragas.

The main action is in the uttarAnga