Hi All,
Pardon me for posting this question here. I did not know where else to discuss this.
Of late, many incidents some personal and some like the Mumbai Terror Attack, made me think what is the meaning of life. Many questions, and no answers.
Does life mean, everything between the birth and death?
Am I really driving my future or some else is doing it?
Is there any value to all the actions (for the lack of better word) that one achieves in one's life time?
If my life is not determined by the actions I take, then why should I act?
It might sound very childish, but the more I think on this, the more Confused and helpless I become.
Then this wild idea came to my mind.
Is it possible that we (every thing on earth) are a part(similar to cells) of something (some super being) big.
We just go about doing our job because we have to (something like heart's job is to pump etc....).
We have no sight of our future because it is insignificant to this master being and we cannot envision the master being.
When we wither out, someone else will take our place.
Crazy ideas like these kept coming.
I know, that there are many here, who are very wise and worldly.
Please share the knowledge of your findings and understandings.
Also, Could someone suggest me some books (which a novice like me can understand).
I am not particular about religion - any book on philosopy of any religion if fine.
Thanks
Paddu
Queer Question...
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poornashadjam
- Posts: 45
- Joined: 18 Oct 2008, 22:57
Dear Mr Paddu,
Each one of us have been brought up in different situations - family , society , environment etc which makes ones character and his basic personality . As human beings we all have problems and it is precisely HOW WE COPE UP WITH this challenge that keeps us moving ahead.
The question of ''WHO AM I " will certainly raise many more questions and will certainly take you towards realisation.
There are a number of books on these subjects . Again these books will only give you some information. But the best thing will be to do self introspection and keep doing that and there will be a realisation some day . You may also read some of our Philosophers books .One good monthly manazene is TT Rangarajans(Alma Mater) - "Frozen thoughts ".
I have been following these .
1. Take life as it comes . Keep your expectations to the minimum. (This needs to be developed)
2. Understand that there is no one in this world who is without problem . It is all about how we take it . We can learn to be happy with problems too.
3. Have a regular routine and do good exercise and mediatation.
4. Develop good friendship .Share your happiness with others.
5. Have a life goal.
Regards
Each one of us have been brought up in different situations - family , society , environment etc which makes ones character and his basic personality . As human beings we all have problems and it is precisely HOW WE COPE UP WITH this challenge that keeps us moving ahead.
The question of ''WHO AM I " will certainly raise many more questions and will certainly take you towards realisation.
There are a number of books on these subjects . Again these books will only give you some information. But the best thing will be to do self introspection and keep doing that and there will be a realisation some day . You may also read some of our Philosophers books .One good monthly manazene is TT Rangarajans(Alma Mater) - "Frozen thoughts ".
I have been following these .
1. Take life as it comes . Keep your expectations to the minimum. (This needs to be developed)
2. Understand that there is no one in this world who is without problem . It is all about how we take it . We can learn to be happy with problems too.
3. Have a regular routine and do good exercise and mediatation.
4. Develop good friendship .Share your happiness with others.
5. Have a life goal.
Regards
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paddu
- Posts: 61
- Joined: 21 Sep 2006, 14:19
I am going through the "Frozen thoughts" web site. Sir, thanks for sharing.
These rambling are more for understanding the situation...... philosophically.
One question deeply haunts me,
If my life is not determined by the actions I take, then why should I act?
If all in the life is pre-determined, then things will happen whether I try or do not.
Better it is for me then to just accept the situation rather than stand againt it(because it would make no difference).....
These rambling are more for understanding the situation...... philosophically.
One question deeply haunts me,
If my life is not determined by the actions I take, then why should I act?
If all in the life is pre-determined, then things will happen whether I try or do not.
Better it is for me then to just accept the situation rather than stand againt it(because it would make no difference).....
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vasanthakokilam
- Posts: 10956
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
Paddu: Those are some profound questions.
You mention two things:
a) Life is predetermined ( fate ) so why bother
b) Life is not predetermined, I am acting on my own free will but, I do not seem to control the outcome, so why bother.
There is a third option to consider which can provide some clarity. Mutual interdependency where we all affect each other's destiny in complex ways.
Consider a flock of birds flying together in formation. Think about how that formation happened.
Is that predetermined? No
Is that strictly due to the free will of each individual bird? No
The formation happens because each bird adjusts its body position and flight parameters based on the three or four birds that are in its immediate vicinity.
Of course, those other birds are not the masters, they adjust their positions based on the positions of its neighbors.
It is a complex relationship. But within a short time, a formation happens. They themselves do not know that they are part of a formation but the
formation is made of them. The intelligence that created that formation is uniformly distributed among all the birds but each bird by itself is not the intelligence.
That intelligence is not housed in one entity, so it is formless and shapeless.
Now, consider this. There can be challenges to that formation. There can be a turbulence, or someone may throw a stone into the formation.
That causes major confusion. Each bird looks at their neighbors but there is no coherence, and they all lose focus and fly hither and thither. The formation is destroyed.
But one will observe that sooner or later they will get back into a formation, not exactly the same as before but a formation nonetheless. How does that happen?
It is again through the small maneuvers of the birds with respect to their neighbors, the formation (re)develops.
Why do the birds have the innate ability to "perform" those small maneuvers. Why can't they just give up hope of this formation and fly by themselves?
It is built into their genes that they derive extreme joy in flying with a few other birds.
That "deep love" for flying with a few fellow birds is all that is necessary. They can get back and reestablish that formation.
Each bird does not need to have that relationship with all the other birds in the flock, but just only with a few birds in their vicinity. Since a sufficient number of them have that deep love to fly with a few fellow birds, a bigger formation happens. A regularity, a bigger order develops automatically and it benefits them all.
Love and passion to do something with a few others who share in that similar pursuit can bring about miracles even though each one plays only a small part in that miracle. Such emergent phenomenoa need not be designed by someone, can not be predicted ahead of time, and can not be caused by any one individual. But with out their small part, the miracle ceases to exist.
This inter-dependent emergent phenomenoa is a third way of looking at things, in addition to the usual concepts of pre-determination and free-will.
You mention two things:
a) Life is predetermined ( fate ) so why bother
b) Life is not predetermined, I am acting on my own free will but, I do not seem to control the outcome, so why bother.
There is a third option to consider which can provide some clarity. Mutual interdependency where we all affect each other's destiny in complex ways.
Consider a flock of birds flying together in formation. Think about how that formation happened.
Is that predetermined? No
Is that strictly due to the free will of each individual bird? No
The formation happens because each bird adjusts its body position and flight parameters based on the three or four birds that are in its immediate vicinity.
Of course, those other birds are not the masters, they adjust their positions based on the positions of its neighbors.
It is a complex relationship. But within a short time, a formation happens. They themselves do not know that they are part of a formation but the
formation is made of them. The intelligence that created that formation is uniformly distributed among all the birds but each bird by itself is not the intelligence.
That intelligence is not housed in one entity, so it is formless and shapeless.
Now, consider this. There can be challenges to that formation. There can be a turbulence, or someone may throw a stone into the formation.
That causes major confusion. Each bird looks at their neighbors but there is no coherence, and they all lose focus and fly hither and thither. The formation is destroyed.
But one will observe that sooner or later they will get back into a formation, not exactly the same as before but a formation nonetheless. How does that happen?
It is again through the small maneuvers of the birds with respect to their neighbors, the formation (re)develops.
Why do the birds have the innate ability to "perform" those small maneuvers. Why can't they just give up hope of this formation and fly by themselves?
It is built into their genes that they derive extreme joy in flying with a few other birds.
That "deep love" for flying with a few fellow birds is all that is necessary. They can get back and reestablish that formation.
Each bird does not need to have that relationship with all the other birds in the flock, but just only with a few birds in their vicinity. Since a sufficient number of them have that deep love to fly with a few fellow birds, a bigger formation happens. A regularity, a bigger order develops automatically and it benefits them all.
Love and passion to do something with a few others who share in that similar pursuit can bring about miracles even though each one plays only a small part in that miracle. Such emergent phenomenoa need not be designed by someone, can not be predicted ahead of time, and can not be caused by any one individual. But with out their small part, the miracle ceases to exist.
This inter-dependent emergent phenomenoa is a third way of looking at things, in addition to the usual concepts of pre-determination and free-will.
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VK RAMAN
- Posts: 5009
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:29
Live and let live, Love and let others love, Learn and let others learn, Legacy are four principles one can follow to understand the meaning. If you are present in your own funeral what would you like others, such as relatives, friends, neighbors and the priests talk about you in your eulogy. People are gauged by their success. Success in what? Success is the progressive realization of worthy goal.
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Shivadasan
- Posts: 251
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 07:52
The example of flying birds by vasanthakokilam is really fantastic and it explains the role played by the individual and society in a beautiful manner. One can find many such examples in nature - for example the colony of ants behaving as if they are one unit.
The problem of free will and predestination has bothered all students of spirituality from time immemorial. It has also been answered by many realized persons, each in his or her unique manner. Many have compared it to a cow tied with a long rope. It has free will but there are restrictions also. We have control on certain events but there are events on which we have no control at all. There is no alternative but to submit to them.
Saints and seers like Ramana Maharshi, Nisargadutta maharaj, Matha Amritanandamayi, Dada Bhagwan point out that what we feel as ‘I’ is a corrupted version of the real ‘I’, which is alternately described as Brahman, True Self, God etc.. The corruption starts with the enjoyment of the world through the senses. The newly born child rests in its selfless state most of the time and its individuality the ‘ I ’ is yet to develop. The more the child gets exposed to the world stronger becomes the ‘I’. They recommend that we should know our real selves by the enquiry, " Who am I ? "
The problem of free will and predestination has bothered all students of spirituality from time immemorial. It has also been answered by many realized persons, each in his or her unique manner. Many have compared it to a cow tied with a long rope. It has free will but there are restrictions also. We have control on certain events but there are events on which we have no control at all. There is no alternative but to submit to them.
Saints and seers like Ramana Maharshi, Nisargadutta maharaj, Matha Amritanandamayi, Dada Bhagwan point out that what we feel as ‘I’ is a corrupted version of the real ‘I’, which is alternately described as Brahman, True Self, God etc.. The corruption starts with the enjoyment of the world through the senses. The newly born child rests in its selfless state most of the time and its individuality the ‘ I ’ is yet to develop. The more the child gets exposed to the world stronger becomes the ‘I’. They recommend that we should know our real selves by the enquiry, " Who am I ? "
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paddu
- Posts: 61
- Joined: 21 Sep 2006, 14:19
VK Sir, the formation of bird’s explanation was awesome.
I have some question though. I don't know how to put. Let me give you, my situation.
As a child, I always loved to dance. I have deep love for dance.
I learnt it up to age of 12. Then, my father said that I must not pursue my dance as it was not appropriate. I was also a good athlete. I had won first prize in High jump in District Level and was selected to go to the State level. Here again, my parents said that I must pursue studies as it was more appropriate. At that young age, I would revolt - here I am not allowed to pursue something I love the most. My granny would say, it the duty of children to obey what parents say.
I somehow curbed my interests and did all things like a dutiful child. But I can very frankly say, even today, if I am allowed to pursue the above, I will love to.
So, what is duty then?
Is it something I need to do even if it is against something I love the most.
Or is it wrong to love such things as these - like dance, sports, play, writing poems? Are they only sensory, and hence it is wrong to love them?
Are there only certain things like taking care of children, cooking, being a nice host, being a good employee etc... that are noble?
Is it wrong to pursue something you love? Also is there something like a superior pursuit and a not so superior pursuit.
VK Raman Sir, I was thinking on the goal. As you say, when does a goal become worthy?
Sorry, If I am just posing the questions. It is the thought process of these discussions that I am just putting here.
Is a goal like -
1. I should be fit and healthy a worthy goal or
2. I should be a good citizen a worthy goal.
Some how intuitively, I say that 2 one is a good option. Why? I do not know.
Is it the because of nobility, selfish Vs selfless or less-self?
So, is this a good example which then says denial for self (never put yourself first) a measure of worthiness?
Shivadasan sir thanks for sharing your thoughts.
I do not know anything about philosophy. Could you explain what is karma?
When is a karma good and when is it bad?
Is it possible, that I could determine the fate of others - and would that karma amount to good or bad.
Sorry, I am pouring my heart out. I am having a very guilt conscious because of some acts I performed.
I have some question though. I don't know how to put. Let me give you, my situation.
As a child, I always loved to dance. I have deep love for dance.
I learnt it up to age of 12. Then, my father said that I must not pursue my dance as it was not appropriate. I was also a good athlete. I had won first prize in High jump in District Level and was selected to go to the State level. Here again, my parents said that I must pursue studies as it was more appropriate. At that young age, I would revolt - here I am not allowed to pursue something I love the most. My granny would say, it the duty of children to obey what parents say.
I somehow curbed my interests and did all things like a dutiful child. But I can very frankly say, even today, if I am allowed to pursue the above, I will love to.
So, what is duty then?
Is it something I need to do even if it is against something I love the most.
Or is it wrong to love such things as these - like dance, sports, play, writing poems? Are they only sensory, and hence it is wrong to love them?
Are there only certain things like taking care of children, cooking, being a nice host, being a good employee etc... that are noble?
Is it wrong to pursue something you love? Also is there something like a superior pursuit and a not so superior pursuit.
VK Raman Sir, I was thinking on the goal. As you say, when does a goal become worthy?
Sorry, If I am just posing the questions. It is the thought process of these discussions that I am just putting here.
Is a goal like -
1. I should be fit and healthy a worthy goal or
2. I should be a good citizen a worthy goal.
Some how intuitively, I say that 2 one is a good option. Why? I do not know.
Is it the because of nobility, selfish Vs selfless or less-self?
So, is this a good example which then says denial for self (never put yourself first) a measure of worthiness?
Shivadasan sir thanks for sharing your thoughts.
I do not know anything about philosophy. Could you explain what is karma?
When is a karma good and when is it bad?
Is it possible, that I could determine the fate of others - and would that karma amount to good or bad.
Sorry, I am pouring my heart out. I am having a very guilt conscious because of some acts I performed.
Last edited by paddu on 19 Dec 2008, 12:06, edited 1 time in total.
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arasi
- Posts: 16789
- Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30
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PUNARVASU
- Posts: 2498
- Joined: 06 Feb 2010, 05:42
Paddu,
thanks to you; such beautiful thoughts have been expressed as a reply to your quest(ion).
VK , very beautifully explained the 'V' formation of the birds.
Yes the whole life is team effort.
There is independence as well as inter dependence.
Waiting for more inputs from our learned and evolved members
thanks to you; such beautiful thoughts have been expressed as a reply to your quest(ion).
VK , very beautifully explained the 'V' formation of the birds.
Yes the whole life is team effort.
There is independence as well as inter dependence.
Waiting for more inputs from our learned and evolved members
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Shivadasan
- Posts: 251
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 07:52
Dear Paddu,
Many of us have faced the same situation in our childhood and are still facing the same questions you have fielded. My full sympathies are with you.
The question of ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ have played havoc with all our lives. The following statement might seem preposterous. But it is true. There is nothing as ‘right’ or ‘wrong’. It was at a very late stage that I realized this fact. Our elders, out of some confusion, were using these words as synonyms for ‘Punya’ and Papa’. Punya and Papa are guidelines for spiritual welfare whereas right and wrong are for social conduct.
Right and wrong are guidelines for good social behaviour.
An action by itself cannot be right or wrong because it depends on the situation as well as the society where it takes place. What is right in liberal society might be wrong in a closed or tight society. What is right in North India might be wrong in South India, what is right in Alaska would be wrong in Africa and so on. Wise persons advise that actions should be taken after knowing the place (desa) and time (kala). At best actions can be either wise or unwise. To term an unwise action as wrong one might result in that act being equated with a sin ( another most misunderstood word,) with the consequences of rendering the doer remorseful.
Duty is an English word that has entered our culture. It means actions a person has to take according to a code of conduct that is laid out. It more or less implies that only such actions would be approved by the society. So far as duty is concerned, there are several types of duties. Duty to oneself, duty to one’s parents, duty to one’s children, duty to one’s spouse, duty to the community, duty to one’s society at large, duty to the nation, and duty to the world itself.
I would assign a specific meaning to ‘duty to oneself’ as that of nurturing the soul and not the body.
Duty to oneself would have the top priority. Sannyasis leaving home is an example. So far as other duties are concerned the situation will determine which duty would come first.
In your case, you have sacrificed your interests for the sake of duty, for the sake family member’s happiness. And sacrifice is the essence of spirituality. What you have lost in physical happiness you would have gained in spiritual benefits.
Certain things like taking care of children, cooking, being a nice host, being a good employee are certainly noble because the are produced by your sacrifice. You are free not to do that sacrifice. But only thing it should be ascertained that others do not suffer on account of it.
You had asked about Karma. There is the karma accumulated in past lives and the karma you have accumulated in the present life. Both control what happens in your life. Sometime they pressurize you to do things that you might regret later. Sages say that karma is created at the stage of thought itself. Karma is a mental vibration. Thinking of acts that hurt others or acts that cater to your sensory delights create negative karma and thoughts about doing good to others at your cost create positive karma. The books I had suggested would give you a scientific basis for this.
You have asked,"such things as these - like dance, sports, play, writing poems - Are they only sensory, and hence it is wrong to love them ?"
Many of us have faced the same situation in our childhood and are still facing the same questions you have fielded. My full sympathies are with you.
The question of ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ have played havoc with all our lives. The following statement might seem preposterous. But it is true. There is nothing as ‘right’ or ‘wrong’. It was at a very late stage that I realized this fact. Our elders, out of some confusion, were using these words as synonyms for ‘Punya’ and Papa’. Punya and Papa are guidelines for spiritual welfare whereas right and wrong are for social conduct.
Right and wrong are guidelines for good social behaviour.
An action by itself cannot be right or wrong because it depends on the situation as well as the society where it takes place. What is right in liberal society might be wrong in a closed or tight society. What is right in North India might be wrong in South India, what is right in Alaska would be wrong in Africa and so on. Wise persons advise that actions should be taken after knowing the place (desa) and time (kala). At best actions can be either wise or unwise. To term an unwise action as wrong one might result in that act being equated with a sin ( another most misunderstood word,) with the consequences of rendering the doer remorseful.
Duty is an English word that has entered our culture. It means actions a person has to take according to a code of conduct that is laid out. It more or less implies that only such actions would be approved by the society. So far as duty is concerned, there are several types of duties. Duty to oneself, duty to one’s parents, duty to one’s children, duty to one’s spouse, duty to the community, duty to one’s society at large, duty to the nation, and duty to the world itself.
I would assign a specific meaning to ‘duty to oneself’ as that of nurturing the soul and not the body.
Duty to oneself would have the top priority. Sannyasis leaving home is an example. So far as other duties are concerned the situation will determine which duty would come first.
In your case, you have sacrificed your interests for the sake of duty, for the sake family member’s happiness. And sacrifice is the essence of spirituality. What you have lost in physical happiness you would have gained in spiritual benefits.
Certain things like taking care of children, cooking, being a nice host, being a good employee are certainly noble because the are produced by your sacrifice. You are free not to do that sacrifice. But only thing it should be ascertained that others do not suffer on account of it.
You had asked about Karma. There is the karma accumulated in past lives and the karma you have accumulated in the present life. Both control what happens in your life. Sometime they pressurize you to do things that you might regret later. Sages say that karma is created at the stage of thought itself. Karma is a mental vibration. Thinking of acts that hurt others or acts that cater to your sensory delights create negative karma and thoughts about doing good to others at your cost create positive karma. The books I had suggested would give you a scientific basis for this.
You have asked,"such things as these - like dance, sports, play, writing poems - Are they only sensory, and hence it is wrong to love them ?"
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paddu
- Posts: 61
- Joined: 21 Sep 2006, 14:19
Shivadasan Sir, that difference between Punya/papa and right/wrong that you have conveyed has hit me like a thunderbolt. Sir we could continue this discussion through mail, if that is fine with you.
One last question though. What is Dharma?
Is it linked to Kartavya or is it linked to religion?
Are all beings tied to Dharma or is it only humans?
Paddu
One last question though. What is Dharma?
Is it linked to Kartavya or is it linked to religion?
Are all beings tied to Dharma or is it only humans?
Paddu
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vasanthakokilam
- Posts: 10956
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
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Shivadasan
- Posts: 251
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 07:52
Dear Paddu,
Since I am encouraged to continue writing, there need not be a last question. Ask any question and I will strive my best to answer.
The word Dharma has many meanings and many interpretations depending on where it appears and who says it and how the reader understand it.
The meaning of the word in the spiritual field is entirely different from the mundane world. Without knowing this fact we confuse ourselves.
In mundane world Dharma is more or less a synonym with duty. Duty of the role played by the person in worldly life. He has many duties to perform because he dons many roles in life. Art of happiness lies in balancing the duties without causing any hurt to others. Suppose a man has to be very assertive and authoritative in a particular post in the office. If he forgets his role in the house and brings that assertiveness in the home there is misery for everyone. Duties are laid out by custom or in writing for each specific role so that both the person and society can benefit. A person is told ‘If you do your duty it is good for you, if not it is detrimental to you.
When some family problems arise, the head of the family is asked to do justice by doing his dharma. In history, a king ( Manuneedhi Cholan) sacrificed his only son who ran his cart over a calf just for upholding his dharma as a king. When robbers attacked Sri Ramana Maharshi he dissuaded his disciples in counter attacking them by saying " They are doing their dharma and we, as sannyasins should do our dharma by accepting whatever happens."
Since I am encouraged to continue writing, there need not be a last question. Ask any question and I will strive my best to answer.
The word Dharma has many meanings and many interpretations depending on where it appears and who says it and how the reader understand it.
The meaning of the word in the spiritual field is entirely different from the mundane world. Without knowing this fact we confuse ourselves.
In mundane world Dharma is more or less a synonym with duty. Duty of the role played by the person in worldly life. He has many duties to perform because he dons many roles in life. Art of happiness lies in balancing the duties without causing any hurt to others. Suppose a man has to be very assertive and authoritative in a particular post in the office. If he forgets his role in the house and brings that assertiveness in the home there is misery for everyone. Duties are laid out by custom or in writing for each specific role so that both the person and society can benefit. A person is told ‘If you do your duty it is good for you, if not it is detrimental to you.
When some family problems arise, the head of the family is asked to do justice by doing his dharma. In history, a king ( Manuneedhi Cholan) sacrificed his only son who ran his cart over a calf just for upholding his dharma as a king. When robbers attacked Sri Ramana Maharshi he dissuaded his disciples in counter attacking them by saying " They are doing their dharma and we, as sannyasins should do our dharma by accepting whatever happens."
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paddu
- Posts: 61
- Joined: 21 Sep 2006, 14:19
Sir, will all acts of enjoyment contribute to adharma?
E.g., If I were watching a beautiful sunset and enjoying it, this is some pleasure I gain.
Would this also constitute to adharma.
Then it leads me to this - Why did the mighty creator create all these?
Would it not be like insulting an artist (god), because we are not appricating his art?
If this is not adharma, which acts of enjoyment, could contitute adharma?
Paddu
E.g., If I were watching a beautiful sunset and enjoying it, this is some pleasure I gain.
Would this also constitute to adharma.
Then it leads me to this - Why did the mighty creator create all these?
Would it not be like insulting an artist (god), because we are not appricating his art?
If this is not adharma, which acts of enjoyment, could contitute adharma?
Paddu
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Ananth
- Posts: 133
- Joined: 14 Feb 2006, 14:04
This question is answered by His Holiness Sri Chandrashekara Bharati Mahaswami, the Sankaracharya of Sringeri Peetha:paddu wrote: If my life is not determined by the actions I take, then why should I act?
If all in the life is pre-determined, then things will happen whether I try or do not.
Better it is for me then to just accept the situation rather than stand againt it(because it would make no difference).....
http://www.hinduismtoday.com/archives/2 ... geri.shtml
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Shivadasan
- Posts: 251
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 07:52
Dear Paddu,
Innocent enjoyment through the senses are natural, and it is a gift by God to us, and is absolutely normal. Only when some one else is harmed or hurt by this act of indulgence on our part the innocence is lost. Suppose a person is asked to look after his sick relative, but goes out to see the sunset when he is supposed to give the sick person food and medicine, then he would be at fault. It would be harsh to call it adharma , because it would fall under papa or punya category and would load his karma with negative vibrations. When Mahatma Gandhi’s sick father died Gandhiji was spending time with his wife. Ever after this incident, throughout his life, he always felt that he had been an unworthy son.
There is another category of enjoyment which is not innocent. Watching cock fights, bull fights, racing helpless children on camel back etc. which hurts other lives to such an extent that they can be called adharma. Saddism (taking pleasure in other’s suffering ) patently is adharma. I repeat, innocent enjoyment through the senses are natural, and gifted by God to us, and is absolutely normal.
Things change when you enter spirituality. When a person is seriously pursuing a spiritual path say, a sannyasin’s life, one of his main duties is to avoid indulging in the senses. Because it is a duty, such infringement would be adharma for that person. He would have crossed the boundaries of Sanyasashrama Dharma. A sanyasi has to be careful enough not to create bonds of desire and hatred. Sense enjoyment and pain avoidance cater to the bond with his body. Therefore there is a duty for him not to indulge in sense enjoyment.
I hope the matter is clear now.
Shivadasan
Innocent enjoyment through the senses are natural, and it is a gift by God to us, and is absolutely normal. Only when some one else is harmed or hurt by this act of indulgence on our part the innocence is lost. Suppose a person is asked to look after his sick relative, but goes out to see the sunset when he is supposed to give the sick person food and medicine, then he would be at fault. It would be harsh to call it adharma , because it would fall under papa or punya category and would load his karma with negative vibrations. When Mahatma Gandhi’s sick father died Gandhiji was spending time with his wife. Ever after this incident, throughout his life, he always felt that he had been an unworthy son.
There is another category of enjoyment which is not innocent. Watching cock fights, bull fights, racing helpless children on camel back etc. which hurts other lives to such an extent that they can be called adharma. Saddism (taking pleasure in other’s suffering ) patently is adharma. I repeat, innocent enjoyment through the senses are natural, and gifted by God to us, and is absolutely normal.
Things change when you enter spirituality. When a person is seriously pursuing a spiritual path say, a sannyasin’s life, one of his main duties is to avoid indulging in the senses. Because it is a duty, such infringement would be adharma for that person. He would have crossed the boundaries of Sanyasashrama Dharma. A sanyasi has to be careful enough not to create bonds of desire and hatred. Sense enjoyment and pain avoidance cater to the bond with his body. Therefore there is a duty for him not to indulge in sense enjoyment.
I hope the matter is clear now.
Shivadasan
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paddu
- Posts: 61
- Joined: 21 Sep 2006, 14:19
Sir you have cleared my doubt.
what is the end goal of spiritual persuit?
What are different ways to achieve the end goal.
Could an ordinary person ( not a sanyasi) achieve this goal?
Sir I ask these questions because, as we discussed every person has several roles and the duties associated with those.
How does one, while doing the duties achieve the spiritual goal?
Thanks
Paddu
what is the end goal of spiritual persuit?
What are different ways to achieve the end goal.
Could an ordinary person ( not a sanyasi) achieve this goal?
Sir I ask these questions because, as we discussed every person has several roles and the duties associated with those.
How does one, while doing the duties achieve the spiritual goal?
Thanks
Paddu
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vasanthakokilam
- Posts: 10956
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
There are some interesting things there. It all sounds logical without too many metaphysical assumptions. I recommend that those who are interested read and contemplate on what he says. I need to spend a bit more time trying to understand the logical connectivity of fate and free will. The metaphor of a nail embedded in wood is interesting.Ananth wrote:This question is answered by His Holiness Sri Chandrashekara Bharati Mahaswami, the Sankaracharya of Sringeri Peetha:paddu wrote: If my life is not determined by the actions I take, then why should I act?
If all in the life is pre-determined, then things will happen whether I try or do not.
Better it is for me then to just accept the situation rather than stand againt it(because it would make no difference).....
http://www.hinduismtoday.com/archives/2 ... geri.shtml
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Shivadasan
- Posts: 251
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 07:52
Paddu has raised the question whether an ordinary person (not a sanyasi ) can achieve the goal.
Sanyasitvam is one route to the ultimate goal. It is meant for those who are born with vairagya and have an urgency to achieve the ultimate goal. Such people are prepared to sacrifice everything and do anything to achieve it. It requires total surrender to God, (accepting whatever happens to him is a prasadam from God, and never questioning why some thing has or has not happened). Not handling money, not cooking and accepting whatever is offered (only what can be received in two palms ‘kavalam’ ), not staying at any place for more than 3 days are all part of their life. Not everyone can succeed in this attempt.
House holders can also achieve the goal. Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa is an outstanding example and present day examples are Sri Satyanarayan Goenka of Vipaschana and, (I think), Nisargadutta Maharaj. It depends on a deep understanding of how a householder can utilize his way of life to achieve the goal.
Sanyasitvam is one route to the ultimate goal. It is meant for those who are born with vairagya and have an urgency to achieve the ultimate goal. Such people are prepared to sacrifice everything and do anything to achieve it. It requires total surrender to God, (accepting whatever happens to him is a prasadam from God, and never questioning why some thing has or has not happened). Not handling money, not cooking and accepting whatever is offered (only what can be received in two palms ‘kavalam’ ), not staying at any place for more than 3 days are all part of their life. Not everyone can succeed in this attempt.
House holders can also achieve the goal. Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa is an outstanding example and present day examples are Sri Satyanarayan Goenka of Vipaschana and, (I think), Nisargadutta Maharaj. It depends on a deep understanding of how a householder can utilize his way of life to achieve the goal.
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Shivadasan
- Posts: 251
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 07:52
About the different ways to achieve the end goal.
Some of the known ways of achieving the goal are, enquiry into ‘Who am I’, Mantra Japa, Tantra worship with Yantras etc., Bhakti, Selfless service to people, temples etc., Hatha Yoga, Nada yoga (listening to inner nada) , just doing one’s duties continuously without any complaint.
Acts like conducting homams, undertaking vrathams, doing angapradakshinam, visiting temples and donating and getting poojas and archanas to the deity done and many such things I do not bring under this category because they endow you with a lot of punya and wordly (in this life and future life) happiness. When you earn some punya it does not take you near the goal but otherwise. You have to take another birth to complete its enjoyment.
Some of the known ways of achieving the goal are, enquiry into ‘Who am I’, Mantra Japa, Tantra worship with Yantras etc., Bhakti, Selfless service to people, temples etc., Hatha Yoga, Nada yoga (listening to inner nada) , just doing one’s duties continuously without any complaint.
Acts like conducting homams, undertaking vrathams, doing angapradakshinam, visiting temples and donating and getting poojas and archanas to the deity done and many such things I do not bring under this category because they endow you with a lot of punya and wordly (in this life and future life) happiness. When you earn some punya it does not take you near the goal but otherwise. You have to take another birth to complete its enjoyment.
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Shivadasan
- Posts: 251
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 07:52
About the end goal of spiritual pursuit
The goal of life as the sages have explained is to achieve a state by which you will not have another birth. The goal is to break the circle of births and deaths.
That leads us to the question what is birth and death and why they happen. One view is that The Almighty provides us an opportunity to take birth in this world in order to finish the karma we have accumulated in the previous life. It is possible to achieve this task if no further karma is added. But instead of clearing the karma we are adding more to the burden. It would be an easy guess what will happen. We cannot break the cycle of births and deaths.
Past karma is instrumental in creating pleasant and unpleasant events for us. When we are upset with what is happening to us and react, we refuse to clear the karma. And it will come back to us again and again like a suitcase going round and round in the airport luggage belt until it is taken up. Suppose the incident is one of the 10,000 items that have to be cleared by us. When we refuse to do so, the outstanding remains as it is. By submitting to the situation without a reaction (Matha Amritanandamayi calls it responding) we clear that one burden.
How a karma is created ? Sages say that when we create thoughts driven by selfish attitude karma is created. Here selfish ‘thoughts’ means thoughts based on ‘I’ and ‘mine’. These thoughts arise because we identify ourselves with the body. Plenty has been written about how we are not the body, but a different force called ‘athman or soul’ which makes this body ( which is just a bundle matter created from the 5 elements) walk and talk. The body is a like robot the soul is the electricity that runs it. Sometimes vibrations from other living being who have been hurt by us can also add tour karma. That is why Lord Mahavira advised total ahimsa.
Why we create such thoughts based on I and mine ? Because without being aware of the fact, we are deeply attached to our body, its sensations, its past and future. Anything happens and we start wondering how it will affect us ( us includes not only ourselves but also all those whom we like). We react, in pain or in happiness. This is the reason why detachment is being advised by all seers. If Raju does something praiseworthy he expects a gain from it. Seers say Raju was fortunate to be in the correct place at the correct time because God Almighty had created circumstances favourable for that to happen. He does not think that way and takes credit for it.
The misgivings that we are the doers generate these thoughts.
The goal of life as the sages have explained is to achieve a state by which you will not have another birth. The goal is to break the circle of births and deaths.
That leads us to the question what is birth and death and why they happen. One view is that The Almighty provides us an opportunity to take birth in this world in order to finish the karma we have accumulated in the previous life. It is possible to achieve this task if no further karma is added. But instead of clearing the karma we are adding more to the burden. It would be an easy guess what will happen. We cannot break the cycle of births and deaths.
Past karma is instrumental in creating pleasant and unpleasant events for us. When we are upset with what is happening to us and react, we refuse to clear the karma. And it will come back to us again and again like a suitcase going round and round in the airport luggage belt until it is taken up. Suppose the incident is one of the 10,000 items that have to be cleared by us. When we refuse to do so, the outstanding remains as it is. By submitting to the situation without a reaction (Matha Amritanandamayi calls it responding) we clear that one burden.
How a karma is created ? Sages say that when we create thoughts driven by selfish attitude karma is created. Here selfish ‘thoughts’ means thoughts based on ‘I’ and ‘mine’. These thoughts arise because we identify ourselves with the body. Plenty has been written about how we are not the body, but a different force called ‘athman or soul’ which makes this body ( which is just a bundle matter created from the 5 elements) walk and talk. The body is a like robot the soul is the electricity that runs it. Sometimes vibrations from other living being who have been hurt by us can also add tour karma. That is why Lord Mahavira advised total ahimsa.
Why we create such thoughts based on I and mine ? Because without being aware of the fact, we are deeply attached to our body, its sensations, its past and future. Anything happens and we start wondering how it will affect us ( us includes not only ourselves but also all those whom we like). We react, in pain or in happiness. This is the reason why detachment is being advised by all seers. If Raju does something praiseworthy he expects a gain from it. Seers say Raju was fortunate to be in the correct place at the correct time because God Almighty had created circumstances favourable for that to happen. He does not think that way and takes credit for it.
The misgivings that we are the doers generate these thoughts.
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Shivadasan
- Posts: 251
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 07:52
How do we get out of the mess ?
Having faith in God and Patience as advised by Shirdi Sai Baba.
We need to spend a lot of time with ourselves daily, introspecting on the goal of life and how we are going to achieve it.
By realizing that we are just role players in the great drama unfolded by God we do not attach too much importance to whatever that may or may not happen to us. Neither dejection or elation.
Realizing that the hand of God is guiding all our steps and that He is our well wisher and whatever He does is for our own (spiritual) benefit .
Understanding that all these mental conflicts are created by our own thoughts and working towards controlling the mind through meditation, japa, vipschana, reading spiritual books etc.
When mind calms down it is not excited by whatever it is witnessing. When after long years of practice mind settles down it will be so calm that you would be able to experience the brilliance of the soul force. By frequent communion with the soul force all your karmas get destroyed and you break the cycle of birth and death.
I hope I have not confused you by confronting you with too many ideas.
Shivadasan
Having faith in God and Patience as advised by Shirdi Sai Baba.
We need to spend a lot of time with ourselves daily, introspecting on the goal of life and how we are going to achieve it.
By realizing that we are just role players in the great drama unfolded by God we do not attach too much importance to whatever that may or may not happen to us. Neither dejection or elation.
Realizing that the hand of God is guiding all our steps and that He is our well wisher and whatever He does is for our own (spiritual) benefit .
Understanding that all these mental conflicts are created by our own thoughts and working towards controlling the mind through meditation, japa, vipschana, reading spiritual books etc.
When mind calms down it is not excited by whatever it is witnessing. When after long years of practice mind settles down it will be so calm that you would be able to experience the brilliance of the soul force. By frequent communion with the soul force all your karmas get destroyed and you break the cycle of birth and death.
I hope I have not confused you by confronting you with too many ideas.
Shivadasan