Flute playing techniques: Fingering, tilt and blow control

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 27 Jun 2009, 07:19

Girish opined "It is time flutists of this forum united to share and discuss the secrets of our trade." in this thread: http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php? ... s-ago.html

We have excellent flutists amongst our midst and we should be able to share techniques. Uday and Raghu had taught us some techniques earlier in other threads and I hope they participate actively.

Fingering, tilt and blow control are the three categories of techniques that I can think of now but it is not limited to just those three. I am actually curious about the various techniques that are involved in providing the sahitya bhavam to the flute sound. Let us also include the techniques of thala keeping and laya enunication ( stresses of various types added to the melody to give it structure etc. ).

To start it off, here is a video of Mali's playing where the camera zooms in occasionally on the fingering. Not that it is a recommended learning method but fascinating nonetheless.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glBlMa3zFQM&NR=1

girish_a · Post by **girish_a** » 27 Jun 2009, 22:03

Thanks for starting this thread, VK. First, I'd like to know how to produce dha (both the daivatas) in the upper octave. I haven't figured it out, but I do know it is possible.

By the way, here's a fingering chart, if it helps, but I don't understand what "first register" and "second register" mean. Is it the sthaayis? If so, the second register combinations are depicted incorrectly, because you can't produce pa and dha with the same finger combinations in madhya and taara sthaayis.

http://www.anubodh.com/Carnatic_fing_ch ... Chart.html

ajit · Post by **ajit** » 28 Jun 2009, 09:48

Girish,
Both Dhas can be produce for sure - I have seen my guru play both Dhaivatams and in fact
upto the Shadjamam also. But it requires a lot of strength in the blowing. The upper octave
sharper dhaivatham, if I remember right, uses the same finger as the normal dha - which is
the first 4 holes closed.

ajit

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 28 Jun 2009, 10:17

Ajit is right.

Here's how to produce the following notes:

1. Upper Pa: Sa fingering with either the middle and/or ring finger of right hand closed.
2. Upper D1: R1 fingering (i.e., second hole half open) with either the middle and/or ring finger of right hand closed.
3. Upper D2: D2 fingering with ring finger of right hand closed. Without artful blowing you may end up with upper M1.
4. Upper Sa: Sa fingering with the middle, ring and little finger of right hand closed.

I can record a demo if anybody is interested.

sr_iyer · Post by **sr_iyer** » 28 Jun 2009, 15:55

Nice thread and thanks to all for their nice posts.

The atitAra ShaDja can be produced by closing
Middle + Ring fingers of Left Hand
And
Index + Middle fingers of Right Hand

(with optional support of right hand little finger)

BTW, not all flutes may produce this note

sr_iyer · Post by **sr_iyer** » 28 Jun 2009, 16:04

Girish_A,

It seems to me that the first register depicted is from the all-holes (8 holes) closed in mandra sthAyi (right-top of chart showing sAdhAraNa gAndhAra as per his nomenclature, though some of us may view this position as associated with mandra-r2 with slight tilt-compensation) to all open (antara gAndhAra - madhya sthAyi).

Similarly, second register denoted shows all-(8)-holes closed in madhya sthAyi to tAra sthAyi gAndhAra (bottom-left) - the latter has been shown to take the support of the little finger of the right hand.

The fingering chart in the page you have indicated does not show beyond G3 of tAra sthAyi.

girish_a · Post by **girish_a** » 29 Jun 2009, 18:59

Uday_Shankar wrote:I can record a demo if anybody is interested.

Uday, I'm sure that would be very helpful. And thanks for giving us the finger combinations.

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 29 Jun 2009, 19:15

Uday_Shankar - please do post a demo

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 29 Jun 2009, 23:23

girish, VKR sure.

My tiny netbook that I use for personal stuff has a built in webcam (lousy I'm told)...does anybody know a quick an dirty software to record a little video MP3 with it ?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 29 Jun 2009, 23:30

Uday: Try the Microsoft Moviemaker. It comes with some versions of XP and Vista, if not you can download it for freee from : http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/down ... aker2.mspx

and some simple instructions: http://www.brighthub.com/computing/wind ... 20582.aspx

( I have not used it myself but I have heard someone else using it for such purposes )

ppraghu · Post by **ppraghu** » 01 Jul 2009, 04:32

Hello Vasathakokilam,

Thanks for opening this new thread dedicated to all flutists....professional and amatuers.

I was planning to start a new thread on "special fingering". But now I will post this material in this thread itself, rather than opening a new thread.

A question to other flutists here: Apart from the academic / research interest, how many of us would reall play thArasThayi Dha, Ni and Sa? I, for one, don't even use the high octave Pa very frequently (well, to admit, my favourite 2.5 kattai flute has an inherent problem in making that note and my lungs are not very strong to blow high).

Regards
Raghu

ppraghu · Post by **ppraghu** » 01 Jul 2009, 04:36

---- Sorry ... a mistake in my above question .... Please read it as:

A question to other flutists here: Apart from the academic / research interest, how many of us would reall play thArasThayi Dha, Ni and aThithArasThayi Sa? (upper octave Dha, Ni and the "super" upper octave Sa)

Regards
Raghu

ajit · Post by **ajit** » 01 Jul 2009, 08:24

Raghu,
Its very rare to play the thArasthayi Dha, Ni and the aThithArasThayi Sa. Also, aesthetically
it may not sound great playing these notes since they will be shrill. I have never played
any note higher than the upper octave Pa in performances.

ajit

ppraghu · Post by **ppraghu** » 01 Jul 2009, 11:25

Thanks, Ajit.

ppraghu · Post by **ppraghu** » 01 Jul 2009, 11:36

ppraghu wrote:I was planning to start a new thread on "special fingering". But now I will post this material in this thread itself, rather than opening a new thread.

Sub: Special (unconventional?) fingering techniques in flute

I am posting this for the benefit of anybody who is interested in playing flute and/or has some knowledge about how different swarams are taken in the carnatic 8-hole flute.

Assume the 8 holes are numbered 1-8, 1 being the closest to the mukha randhram (the hole that you blow to make the sound) and 8 being closest to the extreme end.

In all discussions below, the hole 8 is always kept open. We typically do not close it unless we want to take the mandra sThAyi (lower octave) Ri or Sa.

Now to the very subject of this posting: The special fingerings:

Mandra sThAyi Kakali Ni: All except 3 closed (ie, close 1,2,4,5,6,7). To take Sa-Ni-Sa-Ni, open and close the 4th hole. This is typically used for Sa Ni Sa phrase in Kapi.

Madhya sThAyi Sadharana Ga (Small Ga) (also for shadshruthi Ri): 1, 4 open and others (2,3,5,6,7) closed. If you want a gamakam there, open and close hole 3. Usage: Sa Ga Sa, Ma Ga Ma in Hindolam. Sa Ri,,,, Ga in Vagadheeswari (with a gamakam on shadshruthi Ri as mentioned above). I was told that Mali used to play "ParamAthmudu" in this way.

madhya sThAyi sudhha Dha: All except 5 closed (ie, 1,2,3,4,6,7 closed). Usage: Ma Dha Ma in Hindolam, Ma,,(Dha) Ma Ga in Saveri (to get a touch of Dha1 while moving from Ma to Ga).
In Hindolam, a druTha kAlam MaDhaMa-GaMaGa-SaGaSa can utilise the two fingerings mentioned above (for Ga and Dha).

These are all I know. If other flutists in this forum can post any other special fingering techniques that they know of, please contribute.

Regards
Raghu

vs_manjunath · Post by **vs_manjunath** » 01 Jul 2009, 12:04

Prof Sambamurthy has authored a book on "FLUTE", which is very useful.

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 01 Jul 2009, 14:28

ppraghu

I don't play much flute anymore but I concur with ajit's views - these upper notes are just for veembu and have no part in playing music.

For what it is worth, here's a demo of some of the upper notes, including the struggles

.

http://www.sendspace.com/file/kx71c6

Keep in mind these techniques vary slightly from flute to flute as well as that it may not be possible in many flutes as Iyer above pointed out. In fact, I've handled flutes where even M1 is a challenge. Usually in weightly, high shruti flutes like the ones Mali sir plays.

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 01 Jul 2009, 14:57

Uday sir,

Of all that you said, I found the length of resonating column = distance between where you blow and the nearest open hole the most useful fact.

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 01 Jul 2009, 15:12

srikanth sir, you're welcome

. One more fact...the two ends - blow hole and the first open hole are always antinodes. So recalling your old pipe harmonic diagrams, the fundamental mode or lowest frequency for any flute situation is where you have an antinode at the blow hole, a node midway and an antinode at the first open hole (the end to end length would be lambda/2, so using velocity of sound in air you can roughly estimate the frequency). Any other sounds for the same fingering are second order variants like harmonics (harder blowing, disturbing the modes in other ways like cross fingering shown in the demo, etc..), end corrections (blow angle adjust, etc..).

One more interesting fact...the vibration in the flute settles into a 360 degree axial symmetry (i.e. it is not polarized on any plane) even though you initiate it by blowing a sheet of air at an angle into it...therefore, the blow hole and the finger holes need not lie in a line, that's only for convenience. They can be at any angle on the cylinder, only the axial distance from hole to hole (i.e., the beginning edge of the hole) matters. Some recorders have thumb holes at 180 degrees from the rest of the holes. Some bhansuris (north Indian flutes) have a thigh(?) hole at about 60 to 90 degrees from the rest of the holes.

girish_a · Post by **girish_a** » 11 Jul 2009, 21:48

Uday, thank you very much for uploading that video. It was very helpful. I appreciate it.

girish_a · Post by **girish_a** » 15 Jul 2009, 14:42

Okay, now let's move on to taala-keeping.

1. How do you keep taala with your feet (how do you tap your feet for the taala cycle)? Simple taalas like rupaka are easy enough, but complex ones like atta, jhampa etc?

2. How do you get back on track if you stop tapping your feet?

This was a question that I raised on this forum more than an year ago, and although there was some interesting chatter, there wasn't anything that I found really practical, so this is an attempt to discuss the matter exclusively with the flutists here.

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 15 Jul 2009, 18:58

Sankaran sir taught me to keep the beats of a laghu with a tap of the right foot and a dhrutam with a right tap followed by a left tap. That covers adi and ata. I'm not sure how he does jhampa.

Getting "back on track" is based purely on where you are in the song. Disclaimer!: I never practised keeping taalam with the feet properly and hence not at all consistent with it.

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 15 Jul 2009, 19:52

girish_a wrote:this is an attempt to discuss the matter exclusively with the flutists here.

Disclaimer: I'm not a flautist.

girish_a wrote:1. How do you keep taala with your feet (how do you tap your feet for the taala cycle)? Simple taalas like rupaka are easy enough, but complex ones like atta, jhampa etc?

I just try to be creative ... For ata talam, I use right foot for first laghu, left foot for second laghu and tap my right knee for the dhrutam (I play violin). For Adi talam, this Sankaran-sir system is good, but I need to know which laghu is going on for ata talam, since there are two of them!

girish_a wrote:2. How do you get back on track if you stop tapping your feet?

If you're playing a song, you should try singing it first so that you know how the talam flows ... you just continue playing until you reach a place you're sure of, and take off from there.

Otherwise, you should employ someone to put talam for you and look around to see where you are.

But flautists indeed seem to be experts in talam. The average flute concert includes a lot more kanakku than veena, violin or even vocal concerts.

shantharama · Post by **shantharama** » 24 Jul 2009, 01:55

does anyone know a good flute maker, after Shankarlingam who use to make flutes for Ramani, has anyone replaced him with quality sound and tunning flutes

carmus · Post by **carmus** » 24 Jul 2009, 22:55

shantharama wrote:does anyone know a good flute maker, after Shankarlingam who use to make flutes for Ramani, has anyone replaced him with quality sound and tunning flutes

Try Raghu/Ravi, s/o Sundaram, chennai who made flutes for Mahalingam.

Niranjan Damle · Post by **Niranjan Damle** » 01 Aug 2009, 17:34

Uday_Shankar wrote:srikanth sir, you're welcome . One more fact...the two ends - blow hole and the first open hole are always antinodes. So recalling your old pipe harmonic diagrams, the fundamental mode or lowest frequency for any flute situation is where you have an antinode at the blow hole, a node midway and an antinode at the first open hole (the end to end length would be lambda/2, so using velocity of sound in air you can roughly estimate the frequency). Any other sounds for the same fingering are second order variants like harmonics (harder blowing, disturbing the modes in other ways like cross fingering shown in the demo, etc..), end corrections (blow angle adjust, etc..).

One more interesting fact...the vibration in the flute settles into a 360 degree axial symmetry (i.e. it is not polarized on any plane) even though you initiate it by blowing a sheet of air at an angle into it...therefore, the blow hole and the finger holes need not lie in a line, that's only for convenience. They can be at any angle on the cylinder, only the axial distance from hole to hole (i.e., the beginning edge of the hole) matters. Some recorders have thumb holes at 180 degrees from the rest of the holes. Some bhansuris (north Indian flutes) have a thigh(?) hole at about 60 to 90 degrees from the rest of the holes.

That was quite some physics!! Hi, i'm Niranjan Damle. though my name says i'm a maharashtrian, i'm a carnatic flutist (as i was born and brought up in Bangalore) It was nice to see this thread started on the forum and i really liked that lots of people are discussing the flute! Sincerely marvel the physics and the science behind a piece of bamboo producing such magical melody! look forward to interact more with u all about this on this forum.

girish_a · Post by **girish_a** » 02 Aug 2009, 19:55

Welcome, Niranjan. Glad to have you here, and we look forward to your contributions.

Ramasubramanian M.K · Post by **Ramasubramanian M.K** » 13 Aug 2009, 17:43

Dear Flautists: I am not lucky enough to be part of your "tribe" so that this post is not about playing techniques!!. However Mali Sir and Ramani Sir are very good friends of my father and our family(My brother Sekhar has accompanied Ramani Sir on the Mridangam). A little anecdote re: Mali Sir. When I was growing up and in College I used to be crazy about Mali Sir's music despite his antics,those few moments of rare ecstacy were more than sufficient to offset all the distractions.
When I was 11 years old I had accompanied my uncle(who was a committee member of the Shanmughananda Sabha in Bombay--my father was the Secretary) to Mali Sir's residence in Bazaar Road,Mylapore,to fix a program in Bombay. It was an undistinguishable house as most of the houses were in those days(TNK lived a few houses from mali Sir's)--the house if I recall correctly had a small Poyl in the front and there was a room on the side(when you entered the house) with the window facing the Poyl and the street so that when mali Sir practiced one could simply stand outside the house on the street without having to enter the house--this was almost 60 years ago so that barring rickshaws and bullock carts there was not much traffic to e bothered about--not that I saw many rasikas lining up on the street waiting for mali sir to practice!!.Back to the story.

When we entered the house we happened to hear Mali Sir practicing--when we entered the room,I was shocked to find Mali Sir lying down with a pillow to his head,with the Sruthi box(the bellows type) abutted against the wall at the end of his feet and his feet operating the bellows and practising with high concentration only to be interrupted by our intrusion!! Ofcourse he was polite,agreed to the concert(more details on the concert later in this narrative). I was shocked to see an artist putting his feet on a musical instrument as we had been taught that the instruments are embodiments of Goddess Saraswathi and could Mali Sir not have somebody to put the sruthi. But then Mali Sir was unconventional--to this day I wonder if his casual attitudes towards tradition and flouting of conventions was a curse or is it our own(ordinary mortals like us) inability to comprehend the vistas of geniuses!! He was certainly one of a kind !!!

The concert in Bombay--it was a fiasco-the Don Bosco School Hall in matunga was jam-packed and the organisers had sold all the tickets(priced well above the norm for those days as demand was price-inelastic(as Economists would say!!). Mali Sir played his usual varnam with intermittent stops,pauses(to enquire what he was playing with the Mridangam Vidwan!!),mixed up the Saranam of one Krithi with another and all sorts of antics-- the audience wa getting restless and after booings and catcals, my uncle(who was a good friend of Mali Sir) suggested to mali Sir to end the concert which he did after about one and a half hours. Before he could get off the stage he was literally mobbed and as he was being rapidly escorted back stage some people threw chappals at him and missed--one of them got my uncle square on the back of his head--one of the"mob" snatched Mali Sir's flute and ran out of the hall--those of the readers who are from Bombay may know that the suburban train line(between King's Circle and Vadala) ran right behind the Don Bosco half --this Rasika was running with the flute to put it on the rail tracks(how incensed he must have been to resort to this -afterall the instrument is not to be blamed!!). My uncle left Mali Sir for others to protect him and chased this rasika,finally caught up with him and coaxed him into surrendering the flute.
Post Script: Mali Sir returned the next day to Madras and promptly wrote one of the most nicest,atonement letters to my Father and uncle apologising for his behavior and volunteered(nay insisted) to give a compensatory performance!! The concert itself was arranged by my uncle and father amidst doubts and protests amongst elder Committee members of the Sabha who now gloated that what they predicted had come true!! The "atonement" performance took place almost after a year and needless to say Mali Sir kept his cool promise and gave a wonderful account and soon as it always happened with his concerts,his most vocal detractors thronged in numbers and remained spellbound!!Sorry for the digression in the midst of a serious exchange on techniques.!!

girish_a · Post by **girish_a** » 13 Aug 2009, 19:41

No, no! This was no digression, sir. Who knows, your anectodes might spark new lines of thought around the techniques used by the masters whose lives you are recollecting. So please continue to post flute stories on this thread! Each one of those will be eagerly received!

Your addition to the forum membership has enlivened it greatly, and frankly, you have been a fresh breath of air. Thanks for all those wonderful anectodes!

Ramasubramanian M.K · Post by **Ramasubramanian M.K** » 13 Aug 2009, 21:41

Girish: You seem to be a glutton for punishment ! here are two stories

When Mali's star was in the ascendant--the technique,the blow etc being unique distinct from the lone Flautist of the day Palladam Sanjiva Rao(who was the late Sarabha Sastry's disciple),one of the Mali sycophants commented when Sanjiva Rao played in RR Sabha Hall,(Sundareswarar hall ) in Mylapore they would switch the fan off!!(so much air being circulated!!!). Another story "allegedly "attributed to Maharajapuram Viswanantha Iyer.
When somebody mentioned to MV that Rayarwal's Katru(blow)) was great, MV replied "If I need Katru I would go to Santhome Beach which is so near,why would I have to go RR Sabha Hall and listen to Palladam!!l

I know this is sacrilege to write about a Great Vidwan who was one of the Principal Architects of starting the Thyagaraja Aradhana Utsavam in Thiruvaiyaru ---I listened to Palladam in his very late years and I found his style chaste and conventional--Mali sir revolutionised the instrument and overshadowed all other contemporary flautists like Swaminatha Pillai,T Viswa and others.

Sometimes people do not get the real breaks in their lives and when they do get them fate wills it otherwise-- case in point. re; Tiruppamburam Swaminatha Pillai. a great Vidwan sound technique,great repertoire and a humble man(not worldly wise). My father in the Fifties arranged his FIRST concert in Bombay under the aegis of the Shanmukhananda Sabha. My father goes to the Dadar Station to receive him arriving by the Bombay Express. Just before the train steams into the station(pardon me the expression "steamed" is wrong because in those days there were electric locos between Poona and Bombay!!!) and my father finds Swaminatha Pillai with two of the middle fingers dripping with blood--he had injured himself earlier trying to adjust the fan in the train and somehow seems to have poked his fingers thro the "gaps" in the cover-- a very rare accident--despite medical attention bandage etc, the man could not perform at all and somehow made good the concert with predictable reaction from the unforgiving audience. In those days the CM lovers were eager if not fanatics and they cannot easily conceal their disappointments. End of story. I am not sure if Swaminatha Pillai got a second chance-- the luck of the draw was against him----earlier Mali sir had disappointed the audience but was given a second chance to redeem himself.

However Swaminatha Pillai commanded tremendous respect as Professor in the Karnatic Music College in Mylapore and T Viswa who was his student carried his torch admirably and used to laud Mr.Pillai's repertoire of songs despite the fact that he was playing an instrument where the sahityam is indistinguishable.!!

Another nice Flute story from MLV later!!!

Ramasubramanian M.K · Post by **Ramasubramanian M.K** » 15 Aug 2009, 04:03

Flute story from MLV; In 1986 MLV toured the US --after many concerts--she presided over the Bharata Natya Arangetram of my Daughter(my parents and MLV family were very close--one would think being close to MS family would automatically foreclose any opportunity to befriend MLV or DKP(more on the DKP family connection later on a different thread!!). My parents were visiting us and we ll had a good time reminiscing etc. The day she was to depart from NY she had dinner in our house and we were to drive her to Kennedy Airport to catch an AI flight to Chennai via Bombay.
We reached as per plan a couple of hours earlier after the check-in AI announced that there would be flight delay--rather than return home(20 mts from kennedy) we decided to stay--AI seeing MLV's status and the intervention of friends connected to AI offered to let MLV and all of us use the Lounge(although she was travelling Economy).

We were chatting about various topics,the youngsters,CM Music state etc etc. Then MLV suddenly pops a question whether in our summation of successive generations of performers--how we compare the present with the recent past--each generation always insisting that the present is better than the past. She asked -"We say in Flute, mali Sir was vastly superior to the previous generation(Palladam) and people in Palladam's generation would say he was superior to his Guru Sarabha sastry and Sastry's generation maintained that he was the greatest flautist ever lived so on and so on. Then comes her question

If all these statements were really true --namely that each succeeding generation of flautists are better than the previous, if we retrace far enough YOU HAVE TO CONCLUDE THAT LORD KRISHNA MUST HAVE BEEN A LOUSY FLAUTIST!!!

How appropriate(or inappropriate is this story just on Gokula Ashtami day!!!)

ppraghu · Post by **ppraghu** » 26 Aug 2009, 09:08

One theme in the subject of this thread is "blow control". I thought I would mention an exercise that my flute master makes every new student to practice for first few years (after that, this would automatically become a habit for them

)

- Play Sa with a constant amplitude and constant sruti as much as you can. Stop this, not when your lungs become empty, but when the amplitude/pitch starts dropping.
- Time this using a stopwatch (he uses the feature from his mobile phone for this).
(My variation when practicing at home: Record this using Audacity so that I can see visually if the amplitude is dropping)

Most of the new students would do it only for 5 or 10 seconds. He would then show the ways of how one should keep the lips while playing, how to blow so as not to waste the air etc. A comparison between their blowing and a fuel-inefficient car (or a car with leaky petrol tank) will then follow. His homework to them would be to practice the same for Pa and thArastAyi Sa.

I have observed (with much wonder!) some 8-10 yrs old kids in his class (with about 2-3 yrs of training under him) keeping this "karvai" (is it not the name of this?) for about 35-40 seconds. Mine varied from 30 secs to 35 secs, but more recently, settled to an average of 25 secs (I think I am getting older!).

(This could probably be a popular technique and every flute master might be doing this. If so, apologies.)

Regards
Raghu

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 27 Aug 2009, 07:55

>If so, apologies

Why? What you wrote is quite relevant. BTW, I tried it and I can hold it for like 12 seconds. Quite shameful. How can this be improved?

ppraghu · Post by **ppraghu** » 27 Aug 2009, 09:15

Thanks Vasanthakokilam.

There were few techniques (again, courtesy to and with real gratitude to my flute master):

- While playing, hold the flute such that the mukha randhram (the hole through which you blow the air) is about 75% open. That is, do not tilt it too much outward or inward.
- Blow air with moderate strength - not too hard and not too soft
- The way you would keep the lips. (It is very difficult to write in words how to !!)
- Make sure the air that comes out through the lips is completely utilized in playing the flute, and no air is wasted through any other parts of the lips.
- Hold the flute straight, not tilted up or down (your face and the flute should be in 90 degree angle). Tilting the flute may cause air to be wasted when you blow.

I am not sure if my poor English explains clearly what I intended to convey. Please let me know if this is confusing.

Regards
Raghu

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 27 Aug 2009, 11:30

Thanks Raghu. I tried the tips and definitely I could increase it by a few seconds. I will have to practice more.

This then reminded of something I read a long time back that Kenny G could produce a note for minutes at a time. I searched and found that Kenny G actually had the Guiness record for 45+ minutes!!
( and I read somebody had beaten that record ).

The technique used is called circular breathing. Here are some links about this.

How to do it video in two parts

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhZZgzzm_Mg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3y1kWMtH_OI

Kenny G demo:

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fusea ... ID=9271965

Not sure if this will work for flute. It seems like a tough technique to master..

rungun · Post by **rungun** » 30 Aug 2009, 03:58

Hi

First and foremost - Great thread.

1. I have tried 'hold the note' suggested by Prabhu and sometimes as part of my practice I do that for every note. The sa and pa I can hold for about 25 to 30 secs. The lower pa I can hold almost for 30 - 35 secs. It is a great technique to improve blow control.

2. It would be great to hear what alternate fingerings people use for various swarams.

3. On circular breathing - I have read that one way to learn the basic technique is to use a straw and cup/tumbler of water. Start blowing air into the water using the straw. While continuing to blow, one must try to breath in air (this is the toughest part). I just do not seem to get past this though!!

Thanks for the starting the thread.

rungun

ppraghu · Post by **ppraghu** » 31 Aug 2009, 05:30

rungun wrote: 2. It would be great to hear what alternate fingerings people use for various swarams.

rungun

Rungun, One of my posts (No. 15) in this thread covers 3 alternate fingerings that I have learned - mandra sthAyi kAkali Ni, madhya sthAyi sadharana Ga, and madhya sthAyi sudha Dha.

If others can add few such techniques that they know of, it will be great.

Regards
Raghu

girish_a · Post by **girish_a** » 31 Aug 2009, 17:25

I'm not sure that circular breathing is a very important aspect of flute playing in Carnatic Music. I don't recall hearing about this technique being used by CM flautists.

That said, it is a pretty interesting idea which could possibly be adapted to CM.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 31 Aug 2009, 22:07

Raghu, Girish and others: When you record your own playing, does the 'gasp-like' sound of breathing-in gets recorded as well? Or you have learned to do it without such noise. If so, what is the trick there for more uniform breathing. This circular breathing thing got me thinking about this.

gn.sn42 · Post by **gn.sn42** » 31 Aug 2009, 23:19

This is a difficult problem, and tastes vary on how much breath noise is desired in the recording, but a good condensor microphone with a wind filter will help get the best results. However, opinions are all over the place on this, with some people using clip-on lavaliers on their flutes and others sticking to a large condensor. Perhaps the production notes of favourite flute albums will have details on the audio set up?

ppraghu · Post by **ppraghu** » 01 Sep 2009, 03:24

vasanthakokilam wrote:Raghu, Girish and others: When you record your own playing, does the 'gasp-like' sound of breathing-in gets recorded as well? Or you have learned to do it without such noise. If so, what is the trick there for more uniform breathing. This circular breathing thing got me thinking about this.

Vasanthakokilam,

You hit the nail precisely on the head!!! This is an issue I too face, not always, but for very long sangathis with no break in between, which probably span 3 octaves.

I think that is where the violin accompaniment helps. Violin fills in the gaps whenever the flutist stops for air intakes.

One technique that I have seen flutists do is to give extra silence for long kArvais. For example, if you play swaram "S,,,NDP,MG" for Paridana Michithe, rather than taking a prolonged 4-swara Sa, take 1-swaram of Sa and give 3-swarams worth of silence. Similarly for Pa, take 1-swara long Pa and 1-swara silence. These silences will not only give an extra "breathing space" without a gasp sound, but also make it sound like a professional swara playing. You can use this for sangathis of krithis and chittaswarams in varnams as well.

Regards
Raghu

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 01 Sep 2009, 03:56

gn.sn42 wrote:This is a difficult problem, and tastes vary on how much breath noise is desired in the recording, but a good condensor microphone with a wind filter will help get the best results. However, opinions are all over the place on this, with some people using clip-on lavaliers on their flutes and others sticking to a large condensor. Perhaps the production notes of favourite flute albums will have details on the audio set up?

Thanks gn.sn . The wind filter method looks interesting as long as it does not filter out any musical content. For non-live applications, I wonder if post processing in Audacity can achieve the same effect. In my naive attempt to do this by sampling that breathing noise places produced very unsatisfactory results, it takes out too much from the musical portions.

May be Sudhakar of Swathi Soft or Suresh of Charsur can provide some info on his recording techniques of flute players. Contacting Charsur is probably not going to be successful given the complaints in another thread but I have high hopes with Sudhakar

gn.sn42 · Post by **gn.sn42** » 01 Sep 2009, 05:48

A couple of web pages with suggestions (neither of them use wind filters):
"Recording the flute", an article at Recording magazine
AKG guidelines on recording flute

Audacity has a click/pop removal filter - perhaps you could experiment with some settings there; but it might still be easiest to do this while recording - if you use a portable recorder its position relative to the flute might make a difference (the above articles might give you some ideas).

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 01 Sep 2009, 07:43

Excellent links gn.sn . I learnt quite a few things. The ribbon microphone recording appealed to me more than others. See if I understood this right. His concept of 'to air is human' seems to be more about the air sound due to blowing out. But the same mic position technique may work for the 'air intake' noise. I did not hear that noise in his sample clips. He also talks about reducing that breathing sound by adjusting the equalization for specific frequency ranges. Good material. Thanks.

girish_a · Post by **girish_a** » 01 Sep 2009, 21:16

VK and Raghu,
The gasp-like sound when breathing in hasn't been too much of a problem for me (but your posts have made me pay more attention to the issue, so I will keep it in mind during my next practice session).

Just thinking out loud: you gasp for breath when you're running out of it; for the most part, flutists don't play very long phrases that require them to draw in air heavily at the end; but on those occasions when you do need to hold on to your breath for long, you can avoid gasping at the end by drawing in more air at the <i>beginning</i> of the long phrase. I also vaguely remember my teacher mentioning this.

Venkatachalam J · Post by **Venkatachalam J** » 02 Sep 2009, 14:07

How to play upper n1 and n2 in 8 hole flute:

I got more information from your discussion.
Thank you all for sharing information.

girish_a · Post by **girish_a** » 13 Oct 2009, 18:09

There's a thread running under General Discussions about brigas (http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php? ... vocal.html), which made me think about how brigas are produced on the flute. Any thoughts?

girish_a · Post by **girish_a** » 21 Nov 2009, 16:17

This vibrato lesson by Nina Perlove might be of help to Carnatic practitioners too:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ms9tsWmhyU

She starts with a slow tempo and then increases the frequency, which is a good approach.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 21 Nov 2009, 21:03

Thanks Girish. Very useful. I like teachers like her who are clear and precise.

In our terminology, what she is teaching is trisra jantai .

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 21 Nov 2009, 21:34

There is another video by Nina Perlove where she teaches multiphonics. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIxaYRgf418

I tried it and it is fairly easy to do and it does help bring out a better flute tone. It is a good preparatory exercise.