Techniques to keep Taala for instrumentalists

Ideas and innovations in Indian classical music
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vasanthakokilam
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Re: Techniques to keep Taala for instrumentalists

Post by vasanthakokilam »

VK, I was being somewhat restrictive only because of the subject of the thread, which focusses not only on tala but on the manifestation of it as a practical necessity for musicians when singing and playing.
Yup, got it. I knew I was going off the rails a bit with speculative thinking in an off topic direction ;)

On the topic, as I wrote earlier in this thread, our hands and feet are designed to work together, with synchronized movements. Sometimes when the muscles have to be moved quickly when there is no time for signals to reach the brain, the spinal cord takes over, does the calculation on behalf of the brain and moves the muscle. That is how reflex action works and I suspect some of that is involved when we get tripped up in our thala keeping with the foot when the hands needed to move out of sync with the feet. Disconnecting that coordinated movement so we can independently move them at our will takes repeated practice. That probably rewires the brain. That is probably what muscle memory is. The skeletal muscles do not move by themselves, they need to get signals to move it. Is muscle memory then spinal cord memory?

This leads me to a question ( possibly out of topic ): Those who are excellent at thala keeping with the foot while playing an instrument, do they show any decreased skills when the arms and feet need to move together? If rewiring of the brain/spinal cord is involved in this disassociation, it may show up in other activities. Like, running and catching a ball requires so much coordination between the arms and the legs. Are great violinists poor ball catchers? ;)

Nick H
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Re: Techniques to keep Taala for instrumentalists

Post by Nick H »

do they show any decreased skills when the arms and feet need to move together?
They might be brain surgeons in their day jobs :lol:

SrinathK
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Re: Techniques to keep Taala for instrumentalists

Post by SrinathK »

VK, I strongly disagree with the idea that violinists make bad sportsmen. Maybe you should try playing with me sometime ;) :D

Regarding the point of hands and feet moving together, this creates issues when the eduppu is fractional -- 1/4, 2/3, 4/5 etc... Nagaswara vidwans have someone behind them keep putting the tala on a pair of cymbals. Also most amateurs often turn to the audience for help -- kids often have their parents in their first row or someone sitting on stage. It's also possible that if both mridangam and upa-pakkavadyams are playing, one of them will stop and show the tala to the artistes. In a violin duet or an instrumental concert during neraval and swara turns, one always puts the tala for the other (or at least they ought to). So an accompanist is not exactly marooned, but still relying on others does not substitute for one's own lack of laya gnana -- the percussionist will help you to the eduppu and may suggest phrases for your swaras and neravals, but if you can't anticipate the flow of rhythm with their expertise, you can't follow it at all.

But then again be warned -- the audience is not reliable, and occasionally the percussionist might get into the act and forget his promise to render the tala for you -- the strategy won't work if there is only one mridangam and no one else. Besides what will you do for practicing when you don't have your music teacher around to show the tala for you -- the metronome will of course help, but if you start using it as a crutch and not to develop your own laya skill, you will still continue to suffer when you can't carry your metronome around with you. There is a certain kinesthetic sense of rhythm that you can feel only when you put the tala and master the art of counting yourself.

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Techniques to keep Taala for instrumentalists

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Ha..Ha.. Srinath.. Challenge not accepted ;) I know my limitations in the games I occasionally play which are cricket and tennis,. I do have a mean backhand cross court shot though..alas.. only occasionally it lands in ;)

Seriously, training the brain to not do its normal thing, namely coordinated movement of the hand and leg, or even the two hands has to have some side effects. As with the popular and funny thing one can do with a bunch of kids: tap the top of the head with one hand and rub your tummy in a circular motion with the other hand. Brain, by default, makes it harder to do such 'different' motions and try to sync the two motions. It takes some conscious practice to teach it not to do that. But it is doing it a for a reason and messing with it can have a side effect of some sort. It need not be anything serious. I am curious what experiment we can do to see if there is any decreased level in something else for which the coordinated movement is neede. Now, even those who has severed that auto response can consciously coordinate.. So the experiment will be to somehow distract them ( you in this case ;) ) so they can't consciously focus on re-establishing that coordinated motion whereas a person who has not severed that automatic coordination would do better in that task even when distracted.

I need to find the right experiment to test this hypothesis! ;)

Nick H
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Re: Techniques to keep Taala for instrumentalists

Post by Nick H »

VK, I think you need to rethink what is "normal" for the brain. Is it normal for it to move the legs, rhythmically, moving you forwards, keeping balance, swinging the opposing arms slightly? According to your post, I suspect that you would say yes. So ask you mum how long it took you to learn how to do this momentously difficult thing called walking!

All these things are learned and practised. The only thing is that, perhaps it is hard to add more such practices to those that have become set in the neural processes, as we grow older.

One piece of data for you: even after my very elementary mridangam learning, I found the tummy/head thing easier :). By the way, what your describe is level one of this test. Level two is to change from rubbing/patting to patting/rubbing without faltering. That is much harder!

The art of the violinist is a nightmare of co-ordination. I'm told that the relationship of bowing/fingering/sounds is much more complex than with plucking or strumming instruments, and that the bowing has a sort of rhythm all of its own, which is not related to the tala. SrikanthK: I am vaguely remembering what a student told me a decade or more ago, can you clarify?

SrinathK
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Re: Techniques to keep Taala for instrumentalists

Post by SrinathK »

Dear Nick H, I am not a guitarist or a vainika so I cannot speak for those two instruments. But as a violinist I am new to the concept of tone production and it was only after hearing many videos of great virtuosos playing (and a lot on youtube) on the best instruments across many genres of music that I became aware I that I had no idea about tone production or much about bowing technique at all -- tone production is given great emphasis in other forms of music, but in Carnatic music in general it is not given that much attention with only the musicians at the top giving that necessary attention to it.

Bowing is an extremely complex subject. The bow generally follows the lyrics and therefore has it's own patterns to follow apart from the tala itself. As before the difficulties happen when the eduppu is fractional which requires independence of the hands from the feet and it is also difficult when doing special bow strokes like the sautille, spiccato or staccato. Natural instinct tries to synchronize movements of all the body parts simply because it is the easiest and least energy consuming way to do it -- that's the brain's job, make difficult things easier by any means. Therefore in the matter of laya and violin practice, instinct, deliberate practice is the only real way to go further.

Unfortunately for me I have not seen my violin in weeks now and only get a couple of days in a month when I can visit home and spend some time with it, which is useless. (As to why it remains home, it's because of my job. Here no one appreciates Indian classical music and as I have to put up with shared accommodation, practice is ruled out for the near future :(). Thankfully it only requires about 2-3 weeks before I can play in form again...but in the last few years I have not been able to get a long uninterrupted stretch of time where I can maintain my form enough to concentrate more on music. As a result I have hardly had any opportunity to implement what's in my head, but there will probably be more time available later on.

It might be pathetic on the practice front, but the time off has given me an opportunity to introspect, work on the long neglected laya and tala aspects and to find better ways to practice and experience music at a deeper level. Right now on the laya front I'm trying to find out how to render the basic talas and I have come up with sequences for Chaturashra jathi laghu & dhrutam this week and I'm only working on adi tala and misra and khanda chaapus for the moment. Laya exercises are still being rendered with the hands and the metronome only...

@VK, it's not harder as you grow older, an adult's brain is more skilled than a child's. However, when a 3 year old becomes a 5 year old, the 2 year difference is not a big issue. But for an adult it's like, "OMG! 2 long years!". But it is painfully true that when you realize your old technique was very faulty & even destructive, you have to go all the way back to scratch and start all over. Therefore, I'd strongly say that children and any serious music aspirant should be fully trained in all aspects of music right from the very beginning -- whether they choose to become performing artistes in the long run is irrelevant. Even for producing a generation of great rasikas, we have to ensure they are properly exposed to music. Now I don't want to get into the topic of how serious most parents or students are about aiming for great music -- that's for another story. Anyway, back to the metronome I go...

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Techniques to keep Taala for instrumentalists

Post by vasanthakokilam »

I think you need to rethink what is "normal" for the brain. Is it normal for it to move the legs, rhythmically, moving you forwards, keeping balance, swinging the opposing arms slightly? According to your post, I suspect that you would say yes. So ask you mum how long it took you to learn how to do this momentously difficult thing called walking!

All these things are learned and practiced. The only thing is that, perhaps it is hard to add more such practices to those that have become set in the neural processes, as we grow older
I readily agree that there may not be much to my hypothesis. The proof is in the pudding of course, so I need to come up with a good experiment to test it. Be that as it may, you may be combining 'developmental processes' with 'conscious learning' into one 'learning' whereas I view them separately. It is in the genes that humans 'learn' to walk after so many months where as a calf does that on day 1. That is all part of the development due to gene expression. Part of that gene expression is the synchronous movement of the hands and legs. ( I am not 100% sure about this, so someone who know more about this can correct me ).

The distinction between 'innate' vs 'learned' is much clearer in the case of opposable thumbs ( the ability of the thumb to touch the other fingers of the same hand pulp-side ). That is part of the genetic expression that is so unique to primates. One of the earliest things that a baby does is to exercise that feature. I call that 'innate'.

Putting that innateness to use for specific tasks, namely the precise use of a tool or writing with a pen or holding the bow of a violin, or the specific finger position in flute playing etc., is definitely a learned activity.

Back to the synchronous movement of the hands and legs, that basic default mechanism is innate until we consciously mess with it through deliberate training. That is what I think. It is a soft expression by the genes since it is not that difficult to change that default behavior as you mentioned.

Having said all this, one aspect of your point is well taken. There is a lot of learning going on by us on top of all those expressions by the genes and so this 'messing' with the default is all part of that and so it may not be a big deal. I grant you that.

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Techniques to keep Taala for instrumentalists

Post by vasanthakokilam »

While I was writing all this, there was a background thought going: Mahavishnu probably has done an experiment along these lines! I am sure he will pitch in if there is some material on this.

When I searched for it, I found one that is related to this topic and contains a curious result, that is well known to researchers in this field for quite a long time.
http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.100 ... _16#page-1

Here is the gist:
When the hand and foot ( of the same side ) are moved based on an external trigger, the hand moves fractionally first and then the foot. The difference is exaclty what one would expect because the foot is farther away from the hand. But if we initiate that synchronous movement ourselves, the foot starts to move first. These are all really small differences, probably not noticeable and immaterial for practical purposes, but nonetheless interesting that such a difference exists.

On a lighter note, If we associate foot with 'flight' and hand with 'fight', I guess we are built to fight when we hear an external danger signal, whereas if we figure danger ourselves, the instinct is to flee :)

mahavishnu
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Re: Techniques to keep Taala for instrumentalists

Post by mahavishnu »

Interesting discussion. Thanks VK, Nick H and Srinath for sustaining this thread. I can add to/clarify a few things based on what we know about the brain and timing.

1) Is there one timing system or many? There was a belief that we all have universal timing circuits in the brain that are general purpose structures. So training this system would produce individuals who can be good at multiple timing skills (As diverse as playing the piano and timing a stroke in cricket). But recent results have shown that people with a superior ability of tapping to a metronome (a discontinuous movement like striking a piano key) are not very very good at drawing circles to a metronome (a continuous movement like bow movements while playing the violin). In our own research, we have shown that the process of error correction and trajectory formation works differently for both kinds of movements. http://sensorimotor.mcmaster.ca/wordpre ... br2009.pdf

So, in a nutshell, people are much better at timing discontinuous or "percussive" movements, than they are with bowing actions. There are many mechanical and neural reasons for this, that we have identified in the abovementioned paper.

2) Are these timing systems distributed and if so are they effector specific (is there a hand timer vs leg timer): Yes, and no. There are central timing circuits in the cerebellum, but the way these timing circuits talk to the motor periphery arm vs leg is influenced by a huge time-delay (as VK noted in the last post with the paper by my colleagues in Quebec). Also, larger effectors (those with more inertia) have slower preferred frequencies, so controlling them is harder, purely from a mechanical standpoint. Although there are multiple timing circuits in other parts of the brain, it is unclear as to how they influence simple event timing. The other regions tend to become more involved when the task gets harder (for e.g if you have people do a timing task and count backwards in 7s), then we see the more complex timing regions of the brain get recruited. If a person were to damage to these brain timing regions (from a stroke/lesion), our research has shown that coordination between the affected part of the body improves when coupled with a non-affected region. Please see: http://sensorimotor.mcmaster.ca/wordpre ... lawing.pdf
So if you are having trouble keeping time with your feet, try to teach the old dog a new trick by tightly coupling its movement with the hand/finger.

3) Why is it so hard to bring two limbs together? The brain prefers symmetry in most things. Lateralization began in evolution rather late and much of our brain's specialized hemispheric functions and even language development were the result of breaking this symmetry. So, the two limbs prefer to do the same thing at the same time and at roughly the same point in space (trajectory). So if you try to draw a C with your left hand and a U with your right, you will get huge amounts of interference. Unless you were unfortunate enough to have a callosotomy in which case you have a split-brain and your two hemispheres do not talk to each other. This is a bit like patting your head and rubbing your belly at the same time.

Every musician will have to overcome this constraint somewhat to produce good music. In fact once a specialized skill is learned it is very hard to learn another new skill. Which is why I am blown away by demonstrations of Dwitala Avadhana, as shown in this video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7gkcQW-mY8 by K Gayatri, by a disciple of Suguna Purushothaman. Here she does, Tisra Jampai Tisra nadai in one hand and Kanda Triputa chatusra nadai in the other (the total count of the ragas is the same = 36). This was at her performance in a recent concert in Toronto that I reviewed in a thread. http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=21247

I am told that Lalgudi can do this with four different talas in four different limbs! It takes that kind of training to be a laya giant like Lalgudi. If there were any one musician whom I wish I could study and do complex brain imaging on, it would be LGJ. I would seek a special grant from the NIH just to study his brain!

Nick, interesting question about how to deal with rhythms in walking and other movements governed by pattern generators. I will add my two pence, perhaps in a different post.

SrinathK
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Re: Techniques to keep Taala for instrumentalists

Post by SrinathK »

Dear mahavishnu, as usual the technique to independently separate the motion of the limbs is once again deliberate practice. Actually every cell in our body has it's own memory. Bone cells rebuild themselves when stressed along a certain direction, muscle cells grow and transform based on what exercise you do. Nerves in the brain and nervous system rewire themselves when new activities are learnt and practiced -- once the hardware is fully ready, it becomes much easier to do. In the case of dwi tala avadhanas -- one has to think a few times like this (a simple example is Adi & Rupakam (6 counts), same nadai), "Ok. First beat -- left hand & right hand, downbeat. Second beat. Left hand little finger, right hand dhrutam wave. Third beat. Left hand, ring finger, right hand, downbeat... and so on.

Piece by Piece. In the beginning stage one should not both focus on tempo or kalapramanam or even the exact intervals between the talangas. Say yesterday I was trying to sync Misra Chapu between hand and foot. Since it goes like 0.5+1+1+1 I had some trouble in that 0.5+1 part as the time interval was uneven. So I did this. I first simply put 1+1+1+1, focusing only on the synchronization of hand and foot movement and nothing else -- exact intervals and kalapramana shuddham can be focussed later -- first it's important to memorize the order of movements. When I had sufficiently memorized the movements, I turned on the metronome and then put 3+2+2 on the meter with accents on beats 1,2,4 & 6 and all others silent. Set the tempo to 100 bpm and I had my misra chaapu. This time it was quite easy and I got it right. It will take a few days more before I can totally do that without thinking.

So here's how to do it. Take out a pen and paper and write down all the beats of one hand and below that write down the beats of the other hand. First only the movements between the hands have to be synchronized -- one beat at a time. Then 2 beats, then 3, and eventually the whole cycle and then several cycles. I will demonstrate below for rupakam - adi combo (Left - rupakam, right - adi). Adi tala is on top, rupakam is at the bottom

1 - 2 - 3 - 4 5 - 6 7 - 8 9 - 10 -11-12 13 - 14- 15 - 16 17 -18- 19-20 21-22-23 - 24
D - L - R - M | D - W | D - W || D - L - R - M | D - W | D - W || D - L - R - M | D - W - D - W || (3 cycles = 8x3 = 24) (Right Hand)
D - W | D - L - R - M || D - W | D - L - R - M || D - W | D - L - R - M || D - W | D - L - R - M || (4 cycles = 6x4 = 24 ) (Left Hand)

D = Downbeat, W= Wave (This is Drutam). L = Little Finger, R = Ring Finger, M = Middle Finger and so on. D-L-R-M is chaturashra jaathi laghu. Think of this as a 24 beat cycle instead of either rupakam or adi. Take a special note of these areas -- the 1st beat is identical. When the left hand has finished dhrutam (1st 2 beats) the right hand is still on the little finger and the next movement is downbeat on the left and ring finger on the right. Also the beats 7-15 are identical for both hands. On the 16th beat, the right hand goes on to turn upside down while the left starts counting the ring finger -- this is again found on beat number 22. Also beat 21 is identical for both hands. Again beat 5-6 & 23-24 involve the same combination of movements These are some important "landmarks" -- if you forget where you are, these landmarks will guide you.

A word about the human brain -- the human brain is only interested in maximizing efficiency and minimizing input -- it will memorize these movements so that it does not have to spend precious processing power to think and analyse about what it has to do. Activities which have become habitual require much less mental energy to maintain whereas activities that have yet to be established as a habit require a great deal of energy to override existing patterns and set up new ones. This is the reason why people find it difficult to follow new year's resolutions. It requires more energy and like exercise, it is like resistance training for the brain. It takes up to about 45-60 days before the activity is so deeply engrained it becomes embedded in habit & routine. Hence a disciplined routine every single day, fighting against the brain's tendency to quit is the surest way to build up habits.

Also one has to take necessary breaks of 10 min every hour. This should be complemented by good sleep, good food and relaxing meditation -- the key to exercise is recovery. It is during the recovery period that bones, muscles and the neural networks are rebuilt so that they become stronger than before -- the mind also gets a chance to refresh. The motto for greatness is : "Love the pain. Seek stress and then de-stress at the end of each activity. Once accustomed to a certain level of stress, aim a little higher, rest a little deeper."

Now about the dwi tala avadhana I could also do that showing 1-2-3-4-5-6 for rupakam and 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8 for adi but this one is easier to understand. Later on we can bother about different nadais -- for that you have to count each and every note. A trisra nadai adi will be 8x3 = 24 notes per cycle @ 3 counts a beat and a chaturashra rupakam is 6x4 = 24 notes so they will sync in one cycle itself. That is more complex and we'll see that in later posts.

For a tougher challenge, after you have memorized this movement, switch hands -- Right Hand Rupakam and Left hand Adi. This forces your brain out of instinctive mode and forces it to think deliberately again. Over a period of time this forces your mind muscles into a higher level of thinking all together so it can adapt to this new level of mental stress -- in the long run, even if a spontaneous dwi tala avadhana is thrown at you, your mind will barely flinch.

A tip : First practice the same tala in one hand, then the other, then both hands. Then hand and foot. Then you can try different talas in different hands. Right now I'm working on misra chapu in both hand and foot. The key to mastering talanga on the foot as per my system is that each talanga has a different set of movements that cannot be confused with the movements of any other talanga so there should not be any confusion over where one is in the cycle.

So for misra chapu, I see that my toes have 3 levels of motion. Flex inward, neutral & flex outward. So the 1-2---3---4--- cycle goes like. Beat 1 = Tap the right foot while Toe flexes inward. Beat 2 = Tap the right foot with the toe neutral, Beat 3 = Tap the foot with toes flexing outward, Beat 4 = Tap with Toes neutral. Repeat. As the 1st two beats spell out a different pattern from the 3rd and 4th beats, it is not possible to get confused between beat 2 and 4. As such misra chapu is a simple tala that can be remembered even if you simply tap your foot -- but these complex motions are the key to muscle memory.

So the misra chapu dvi tala avadhana will be like this :

Hand : W | W, | D, | D, ||
Foot : I | N, | O, | N, || where I = Toes inward, N = Toes neutral, O = Toes outward. Now do that with the metronome. Eventually take the hand out of the picture and tap only with the foot. After 2 days, mute the speakers and practice -- see if your kalapramana is steady even without the metronome. Then practice once again with it.

More on this later. As I continue to work deeper into this I will keep posting in this thread...

Nick H
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Re: Techniques to keep Taala for instrumentalists

Post by Nick H »

Mahavishnu, I wish I could digest the academic writing, but my brain finds it harder than keeping talam :$

Tapping versus bowing: I often find it easier to keep talam with flowing movements of the hand, rather than taps. Perhaps I am counting the period of time allotted to the beat, rather than its moment of time. Perhaps I should have attempted violin instead of mridangam.

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Techniques to keep Taala for instrumentalists

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Thanks very much Mahavishnu and Srinath. Lots of good information. Srinath, I think I am following your method, especially your idea of getting the hang of the sequence right and then the interval.

The difference between keeping thalam to music (reactive triggering) vs keeping thalam oneself( self induced triggering ) are quite fascinating.

Mahavishnu, in this paper: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11963277

Can you translate this to English and add some commentary, especially the bold part?

"...In the first case, results are explained by a simultaneous triggering of motor commands. In contrast, self-initiated and auditorily paced movements are assumed to be controlled in terms of their afferent consequences, as provided by tactile-kinesthetic information..."

Speaking of timing, I find it very hard to tap the foot to one speed and simultaneously tap the hand at double the speed. The limb that I am not focussing on either stops or it catches up automatically to the speed of the other. But I can easily do another very related thing. Tap the hand at a reasonably fast speed and every 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th etc. beat tap the foot synchronously. Not a problem. The 2nd beat synchronization is a bit difficult and error prone but with 3, 4, 5 etc. not a problem. In one sense, this is also tapping the two at different speeds. The problem is when changing the speed once it got going. That is when the other limb gives up or synchronizes.

Talking of continuous motion beat keeping, I was quite pleasantly surprised to learn accidentally that I can do it and do it reasonably well. That is also when I figured out that Eduppu is not as big a deal if I focus on hitting the following beat right. Eduppu fixes itself. In circular beat keeping, the eduppu can theoretically be so fine grained. One can position it in the 2 Pi radians ( 360 degrees ) of space available. But I do not know if, in my circular beat keeping, the speed of my hand motion is constant or there is acceleration for the first half and deceleration in the second half. It is probably the latter. That is all the more reason that eduppu as a fixed point before or after the beat is not so meaningful in circular beat keeping.

One fun thing to try is to increase the radius of the circle as you are keeping the beat. It is amazing how quickly one can adjust the speed of the hand motion so we will complete the circle on the beat. Ramesh, it will be interesting to know what is going on there. May be there are some investigative results, if not it may be worthwhile finding out.

SrinathK
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Re: Techniques to keep Taala for instrumentalists

Post by SrinathK »

Dear mahavishnu, I think it will be more useful for me to study Sri Lalgudi's methods than his brain ;) Brain mapping might help you find out your patient's neural networks, but what I want is to GROW some laya related neural networks in MY brain. ;)

He surely would have been an extremely meticulous and devoted researcher and would have known way more than all we can talk here. In case of putting talas on both feet or all 4 limbs (add the mouth and your head if you dare for 6 !!), I'd have to go back and revise my ideas to keep a tala confined to one foot only :). But that won't be enough. Such a feat cannot be repeated unless the talas have indeed gone that deep into one's mind that one can never lose one's way, foot movements or no foot movements. Anyway as an update I managed to successfully put my rupakam in GNB's Aaragimpave including most of Pazhani Subramania Pillai's tani. And my misra chaapu did work for Amba Kamaakshi.

And one other thing : Don't try chaapu talas + other talas combination right away. Save it for the end. As chapu talas run on 1/2 beats, that half beat in those talas will put the beats of the chaapu tala 1/2 beat out of sync with the beats of the other tala in the 1st cycle and it will only come back in sync in the next cycle, and you'd need to put the beat of one tala in the gap of another. Before attempting that, try singing swaras at 1 note / beat in Misra chaapu or khanda chaapu and you will quickly see this (Raga Gowla - Sri Mahaganapati) :

P |, M |, G|, M ||, | R, |G, |M, || R |, S |, N |, S||, , , | N, | S , | R, || (See the effect?)

mahavishnu
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Re: Techniques to keep Taala for instrumentalists

Post by mahavishnu »

In the first case, results are explained by a simultaneous triggering of motor commands. In contrast, self-initiated and auditorily paced movements are assumed to be controlled in terms of their afferent consequences, as provided by tactile-kinesthetic information..."
VK: here is a simpler way of saying the same thing.
So, when you react to a stimulus hand and foot movements are initiated by the brain at the same time. Given the finitely larger delay in the command reaching the foot there is a 50ms lead that the hand has with the foot. However if there is a self-initiated/paced movement where the subject is told to synchronize the movements, then it must be that the movements were planned so the motor command to the foot precedes the hand by about 50ms so the two movements appear synchronized. Thus the brain must be planning these movements in terms of the sensory consequence/tactile feedback that comes from sounding synchronized rather than initiating the movements at the same time.

You can imagine how complicated this can be when you use multiple effectors all with varying time delays!
One fun thing to try is to increase the radius of the circle as you are keeping the beat. It is amazing how quickly one can adjust the speed of the hand motion so we will complete the circle on the beat. Ramesh, it will be interesting to know what is going on there. May be there are some investigative results, if not it may be worthwhile finding out.
Colleagues of mine at Purdue have tried to perturb the motion of the hand during circling/cyclic movements. They find that it is harder to recover from a perturbation in bowing (to get back on time) than it is when you perturb a percussive movement that tends to be more ballistic. So, my guess is that increasing the amplitude of the circling movement would be more difficult to adapt to.
Mahavishnu, I wish I could digest the academic writing, but my brain finds it harder than keeping talam :$
Nick, The converse is true in my case. A lot of academic writing is also denser than it should be :-@ As I have said before, my academic pursuits emerged from my utter ineptitude at the most basic level of musicianship.

Srinath: Yes, my job is to understand how the brain works. Being a practicing musician is much harder and I will leave that to those with much greater talent like yourself :D

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Techniques to keep Taala for instrumentalists

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Mahavishnu, Thanks. I understand it better now. Very interesting how the brain plans that timing. Thx.

vpsm
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Re: Techniques to keep Taala for instrumentalists

Post by vpsm »

Hi everyone,

I just joined this forum because I am quite interested in this topic and found the forum participants' posts quite interesting. This is a topic I am currently trying to tackle as well, although in the context of Hindustani music. I came across the AMS Easy Methods and had already been doing certain exercises similar to those, although the addition of the left hand was new and I do feel that it helps in stabilizing rhythm.

Anyway, just wanted to try to revive this thread and see what people found useful to make progress on this problem. I've been trying mental exercises to try to feel the tala on my hand (mentally) and also visualize playing the instrument (again, mentally) at the same time. Not sure how useful it will be but will update it as well. In the meantime, continuing with the exercises prescribed in AMS Easy Methods.

SrinathK
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Re: Techniques to keep Taala for instrumentalists

Post by SrinathK »

I use my feet and a visualization technique I'm working on for the talas -- with our hands full, we have to rely on our feet only for all the tala angas. Now it's obvious that the feet are by no means anywhere near as flexible as the hands. This gives the hands a fundamental advantage over feet -- those kriya gestures for each tala anga allow you to take the counting out of the head and into the hands. -- a very important advantage to the vocalist. Not unlike math memory, where it feels as though your HANDS and the tip of your pencil is somehow WAY smarter than your brain. I assume you are already familiar with the talangas. So here's how the hands keep count.

1) laghu (beat + finger counts),
2) dhrutam (beat + wave),
3) guru (depending on which version of it you follow, it could be the beat + closed fist moving on an imaginary hexagon or the slight difference between the laghu (sounded) and the patitam (unsounded)
4) Plutam (changing the main position of your hand makes it oh so easy, basically almost the same as 3 laghus in 3 different positions)
5) Kakapadam (Same as above - only 4 different positions)

Now the foot cannot do ANY of these, at best it can keep tapping up and down which itself is quite a challenge when you are sitting in that cramped posture. Hence there is a need for a visualization scheme that differentiates every beat of a talanga. You IMAGINE (and imagine is the word here) your foot as a lever that can assume certain positions in your mind (it does not go beyond the natural movement of the toes and the ankles). It goes on the logic that when you visualize strongly, it creates a slight muscle tension in that direction and that is enough to differentiate one beat of the foot from another.

I am still testing the scheme I have in my mind and it has worked on every tala I have tried -- in theory, it can handle even talas with guru, plutam and kakapadam like the simhanandana and even double talas (one on each foot), though that is still a while off. I will share it when I have tested it to my satisfaction.

In AMS methods, the use of the other hand is actually a masterstroke. You train both left and right sides of the brain and body to keep the rhythm and the skill will come in real handy when you tackle 2 talas, one on each hand.

vpsm
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Re: Techniques to keep Taala for instrumentalists

Post by vpsm »

Hi SrinathK,

Thanks for the detailed and interesting reply. I had tried doing something similar recently but I didn't spend much time on it. My main problem was that I couldn't really do much with the foot while standing other than tap (I play the saxophone and most of it is done while standing). However, after reading your post, I though I'd go back and give this approach another shot, especially since it's a lot easier to keep the beat using the feet.

I'm still struggling with developing distinct foot movements for all the talangas that are easy to visualize. Currently, I'm just doing basic up/down/left/right movements and that seems to be getting ingrained well (haven't tried it while playing the instrument yet).

Can you elaborate how you map the various talangas to the foot movements as an example?

uday_shankar
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Re: Techniques to keep Taala for instrumentalists

Post by uday_shankar »

I've been practising the chitravenu held upright while I sit on a chair. This has led to an ease in keeping tala with feet, and I've evolved an ad-hoc scheme, by no means systematic to keep various taalas with the feet. I basically make it up as I go along. I don't have a Carnatic/Hindustani divide in my head, nor even a clear laghu drutam divide( for example, I treat Adi taala 2 kalai as 4 sets of 4 major beats, apart from subdivisions like nadai which are held in the head). Also, there are two feet and some toe movement available...

So the distinct "states" available to me are:
1) Feet - 2 states (left foot and right foot)
2) Foot position - 2 states (up and down)
2) Big toe - 2 states (bent and straight)
3) RIght foot position in a quadrant - 2 or 4 states

The following short video clip shows an excerpt from a performance that somebody cut and paste for a website and facebook page.. they took the footage that shows the camera focusing on foot movement ... as is clear, the taala here is a slow version of mishra chappu (they call that something in Hindustani, don't know the name, although I am supposed to be playing Hindustani music !!!)...

https://www.facebook.com/RareAndStrange ... 496431947/

They cut and paste it from the following youtube video in case anyone is interested :):

https://youtu.be/iealVYOKmss

There's a lot of things to coordinate for chitravenu... the flute pitch audio-visually, the strings strictly by feel, etc.... so it is convenient of the feet can keep the tala independently without thinking...

Sachi_R
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Re: Techniques to keep Taala for instrumentalists

Post by Sachi_R »

Great, Uday.

I know another musician who has a unique way to keep beats. I saw that Prince Rama Varma has a very articulate right big toe which vigorously keeps the tala!

SrinathK
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Re: Techniques to keep Taala for instrumentalists

Post by SrinathK »

As a violinist, not having my hands free or anyone to put the tala for me, was the biggest problem I ever faced. I'd say my lack of laya skill stopped me from exploring manodharma and hurt my confidence in the past.

But no longer. I now have the answer I was seeking for many years. The last time I wrote about this, I was still testing. Now it's ready.

The main benefit and purpose of kriya angas is really this - they take the counting out of your head and into your body parts. This way, the mind is free to concentrate on the music and there is nearly no doubt as to where you are in the tala at any given time.

Now the toes are less flexible than the fingers, so I couldn't count on my toes - I tried bending them, but there was no chance. That's when I observed that if you visualize and feel yourself doing a particular movement strongly, even if you don't actually move that part, you will create a tension in the corresponding muscle and a millimeter of movement, this small amount of movement and tension is enough to distinguish two foot beats from each other. Imagine you're lifting huge load using your arms, feel it - your biceps will tense up even with no arm movement.

The arms can move at the fingers, the wrist, the elbow and the shoulder and all talangas use the combo of these 4 to create the sequence for each tala.

The legs also have 4 levels of movement - one the toes, one at the ankle, one at the knee and one at the hip. Visualizing a movement strongly at any one of these spots without actually moving a body part creates a noticeable difference in muscle tension changing the feel of each foot tap, allowing you to count if you have a sequence. But the legs are far less flexible, so their movements are far simpler.

So accordingly, I have created a visualization of the movements (my own kriya system) that was good enough for me to render all the talas, in all jaathis, all the talangas, with no ambiguity, and on one leg only, so I can do two simultaneous talas on two legs (and in theory up to 4 simultaneous talas if I use my hands as well). These movements are all mental, the actual physical movement is just a mild regular foot tap (and even that is not needed after a while). This means I can play without hindrance.

This worked really easily for the regular talas. Later on I also extended it to guru, plutam and kakapadam. To make it easier for these more complicated angas, I eventually added some colors to the visualized movements.

Muscle memory figures out the sequence in no time. So I no longer have to burden my head counting "1,2,3,4..."

The end result is something that is as easy as putting tala with your hands. Now-a-days I follow entire concerts on my feet, with no issues.

I was thinking for a long time to post it step by step up here, but I've been searching for the right words. I don't expect anyone to get what I just said up here. Since it's a visualization + kinesthetic thing, I don't think I can clearly explain it on a forum site. This is the basic principle, but I haven't told you the exact movements (next post I will give a very simple example).

It sounds complicated, but it really isn't. In person though, it's quite easy to grasp.

SrinathK
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Re: Techniques to keep Taala for instrumentalists

Post by SrinathK »

Ok, so theory aside, let me get to lesson #1, the way I do it.

First, imagine and feel a very very flexible set of feet, that can flex to absurd levels. Now I am right footed, so I am going to use my right foot for all the examples.

1) Anudhrutam - Toes neutral. Do a simple foot tap.
2) Dhrutam - For the first foot tap, feel the toes flexing inward (to your sole). For the second, feel them flexing out.

Don't physically bend your toes. Just foot tap. But as you do, visualize strongly enough the toes flexing (exaggerate it far beyond what your physical body can do), feel the movement and the sensations and the muscle tension mentally as if your toes were really flexing hard. Your will power will instigate a small tension in your toe muscles. If you want to, allow your toes to move by a millimeter in each direction to really feel that distinct tension (if your toes have been perfectly still, just initiating the slightest sliver of movement will be felt dramatically)

3) Tisra jaati laghu - Since no one's toes are so individually flexible, we're not going to count on our toes. We are going to do something different.

First beat - Toes inward,
Second - Toes neutral / center
Third - Toes outward

The key here is not the visualization - as you can see a strong visualization needs your total attention which you cannot afford on stage. It's that small stroke of tension it creates for your muscle memory to remember. After sometime, the visualization will be so automatic it becomes a mere afterthought while playing. Your muscles know what the next movement is, you vaguely tense a bit, move 1 mm in a direction and you'll know exactly which beat you are on.

You can very well do this with your hands too. It's very easy, and give the audience the impression that you aren't putting the tala at all.

4) Roopaka (3 beat)
First beat - Toes center
Second beat - Toes Inward
Third beat - Toes outward

This imitates the way the hands do it and distinguishes it from tisra laghu.

So far I have covered only the movement of the toes.

Two weeks of practice will make the process second nature to the muscle memory. Use a metronome and practice from slow to fast speeds (up to 130 bpm). So good is human muscle memory that the slightest mental nod can recall the entire memory of the movement - and that's all we need to count. It's like riding a bicycle with no hands on the bars, once memorized, the body can balance itself easily.

uday_shankar
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Re: Techniques to keep Taala for instrumentalists

Post by uday_shankar »

SrinathK wrote: 17 Jun 2018, 16:10Don't physically bend your toes. Just foot tap. But as you do, visualize strongly enough the toes flexing (exaggerate it far beyond what your physical body can do), feel the movement and the sensations and the muscle tension mentally as if your toes were really flexing hard. Your will power will instigate a small tension in your toe muscles.
That's really cool and original.

I've found that apart from having to keep automatic track of taala angas, there's the problem of a good, steady, meter/beat when playing "amorphous" instruments like the flute. I found it so much easier to maintain a good beat on a plucked string instrument like chitravina than the flute. Of course, chitravina has that amorphousness in the pitch front. Chitravenu is amorphous is every respect, but that's an ongoing story..

SrinathK
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Re: Techniques to keep Taala for instrumentalists

Post by SrinathK »

There was a good software called Fine metronome (the website is gone now, but I think I still have the installation files)- you can input a custom beat pattern into the editor that will duplicate the exact tala pattern, even up to 4 or 8 kalais (the older version was even more capable at this).

So on to lesson # 2 (request anyone interested to follow -- this will take a while before I'm done and I promise you that what I've come up with is a true game changer). Again using the right foot,

1) tisra chApu - 1 1/2 beats. Just a simple foot tap to a tt, tt, tt, tt, pattern

2) chatushra chApu - foot tap to a t,tt | t,tt | t,tt |... . Visualize and feel as if the toes flexing inward on the 1st beat, which will distinguish it.

Again, do not actually try flexing your toes, it's not needed, you do not have the flexibility of your fingers and pretty soon you'll experience a nasty cramp in your foot. It's all in the will, the feel and tension.

Now for some 'notation'. The inward flex of the toes, I will now denote as "I" and the toes outward as "O". Toes neutral as "N".

3) khanDa chApu - I, NN, | I, NN, |...

4) mishra chApu - NN, I, O, | NN, I, O |...

5) sankeerNa chApu - NN, I, N, O, | NN, I, N, O |

You might find it's actually easier to render chApu talas on the feet than the hands after this.

Lesson 3 will come after a while - it's more complicated, because now you'll need your ankle as well. In the meantime, practice!

girish_a
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Re: Techniques to keep Taala for instrumentalists

Post by girish_a »

Great to see this thread come back to life. I was thinking about "bumping" it up. Great insights from Srinath and Uday. Thanks a lot. Will try the visualization technique recommended by Srinath first. Hope to post how I find it.

SrinathK
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Re: Techniques to keep Taala for instrumentalists

Post by SrinathK »

Tell me after 2 weeks to a month of practice.

SrinathK
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Re: Techniques to keep Taala for instrumentalists

Post by SrinathK »

Lesson # 3. Using your ankle.

Just like your toes, the ankles also have 3 degrees of movement. There is a reason why I follow a 3 level system and not 2 levels and that will be clear when I'm done.

So imagine a hyper flexible ankle. Your ankle can flex forward (down if standing), it can flex backward (upward if standing) or it can stay centered. If you are seated on the floor and using your right foot, your ankle can flex to the left (forward), the right (backward) or stay center (neutral). We will call these positions as F, C and B. F = Forward, C = Centered, B = Backward.

To get used to this, first physically move your ankle and observe the actual movement. Then as you visualize, move your ankle by 1 mm as you did with the toes, that's enough to create a distinct feel. Then just visualize and feel your ankle tensing as if it was moving forward, middle and back.

Now we are moving on to the laghus. Tisra laghu was simple, it did not need your ankle. The other laghus have higher counts, so they will use both the toes and the ankle. I will just take up chatushra laghu in this lesson.

My advice is that just for this part, till you have memorized the movement, at very slow tempo, just bend your toes and ankles and see how that looks and feels. After you get it, you won't need to physically contort your foot. :D

1) Chatushra laghu -

Ankle forward + toes inward to the sole. This is the first beat. We will call this "FI" F for ankle forward, I for toes inward.
Ankle center and toes both neutral. This is the second beat. We will call this "CN".
Ankle back and toes outward. This is the third beat. We will call this "BO".
Ankle center, but toes still outward. This is the fourth beat. This will be "CO". This distinguishes it clearly from the second beat.

So FI + CN + BO + CO. This makes the 4 beats of chatushra laghu. And in doing this, you have also learnt chatushra jaathi Eka tAla.

Then practice with a metronome. Get to a point where you don't have to think about your foot and you know exactly what's going to come next.

With this, you can now put Adi tala, Roopaka (both 3 beat and 6 beat versions), all chApu tAlas and any simple tAla in chatushra jaathi. You may do this with Dhruva, MaTya, Jhampa, ATa and Eka tAla and any other tala that can be mathematically derived and valid in chatushra jaathi.

You should be able to follow most of the items in a concert with just this much. For 2 kalai or 4 kalai, as you do with your hands, foot tap each beat twice or 4x.

SrinathK
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Re: Techniques to keep Taala for instrumentalists

Post by SrinathK »

Lesson # 4 khaNDa jAti, mishra jAti and sankeerNA jAti laghus

My logic of laghu after experimenting with several combinations, is this - like throwing a ball that goes up and comes down, every laghu starts on one side, goes to the other, before returning back - this way was the easiest for me to memorize and maintained a certain continuity to the foot tap pattern.

Again, all visualization and feel, first khaNDa jAti laghu (5 counts)

1) 1st beat - Ankle forward and toes inward (FI)
2) 2nd beat - Ankle forward and toes neutral (FN)- this is the extra beat
3) 3rd beat - Ankle center and toes neutral (CN)
4) 4th beat - Ankle back and toes outward (BO)
5) 5th beat - Ankle center and toes (still) outward (CO)

FI-FN-CN-BO-CO. 5 counts, 5 distinct beats.

EDIT : After some experimentation, I found another way that felt easier for me. You may use this as well:

1) 1st beat - Ankle forward and toes inward (FI)
2) 2nd beat - Ankle center and toes neutral (CN)
3) 3rd beat - Ankle back and toes neutral (BN) - This is the extra 5th beat.
4) 4th beat - Ankle back and toes outward (BO)
5) 5th beat - Ankle center and toes (still) outward (CO)

FI-CN-BN-BO-CO

Now mishra jAti laghu - where 2 extra beats get inserted.

1) 1st beat - Ankle forward and toes inward (FI)
2) 2nd beat - Ankle forward and toes neutral (FN)
3) 3rd beat - Ankle center and toes inward (CI) - note the difference, I am doing these variations to distinguish the patterns apart.
4) 4th beat - Ankle center and toes neutral (CN)
5) 5th beat - Ankle back and toes neutral (BN) - and that's the 2nd extra beat
6) 6th beat - Ankle back and toes outward (BO)
7) 7th beat - Ankle center and toes outward (CO)

FI-FN-CI-CN-BN-BO-CO

And finally the sankeerNa jAti laghu, with 2 more beats for 9 counts

1) 1st beat - Ankle forward and toes inward (FI)
2) 2nd beat - Ankle forward and toes neutral (FN)
3) 3rd beat - Ankle center and toes inward (CI)
4) 4th beat - Ankle center and toes neutral (CN)
5) 5th beat - Ankle back and toes inward (BI)
6) 6th beat - Ankle back and toes neutral (BN)
7) 7th beat - Ankle back and toes outward (BO)
8) 8th beat - Ankle center and toes outward (CO)
9) 9th beat - Ankle forward and toes outward (FO)

FI-FN-CI-CN-BI-BN-BO-CO-FO

I always prefer to end with toes out, it makes it easier to remember.

For 2 or 4 kalai, you know what to do.

And here's the logic behind the 3 degrees of movement. For both toes and ankle, this yields 3 x 3 = 9 distinct combinations. Which allows you to tap up to sankeerNa jAti, with no repetitions (even the hands cannot do this with only 5 fingers).

Now with this, you can put in all the 35 talams, or any talam that does not have the more complex angas of guru, plutam and kAkapadam. I have found a way for those 3 as well, but to go there, it is absolutely mandatory to master the laghu variations, because the above movements are going to be used in these 3 as well.

There is an additional layer of imagination with them, a somewhat 'crazy' visualization that will help us master them. But that is for later.

The next stop will be the nadai subbeats.

SrinathK
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Re: Techniques to keep Taala for instrumentalists

Post by SrinathK »

Lesson # 5 Now for nadai subbeats.

First of all, go back to the chApu beats and put them all imagining and feeling the foot in a neutral position. Learn to count with just the basic foot tap.

1) tisra chApu - NN, | NN, ....
2) chatushra chApu - N,NN | N,NN
3) khaNDa chApu - N,NN, | N,NN, |
4) mishra chApu - NN,N,N, | NN,N,N, |
5) sankeerNa chApu - NN,N,N,N, | NN,N,N,N, |

Get used to it first.

As with the hands, these beats will now be superimposed as a subbeat pattern into the main talanga beats, so practice them in all the visualized positions for laghus, dhrutam and anudhrutam.

You will therefore be repeating the subbeat pattern thrice for tisra laghu or roopakam as they have 3 different foot positions, 8 times for Adi, etc. This is identical to what they do on the hands, where they will be putting a chApu tAla on each finger and wave for an Adi tala - turning it into an 8-cycle chApu tAla.

If you do develop a feel for counting 1-18 notes and pauses (especially pauses!) in a beat without the use of subbeats (and claim laya godhood), or at least 1-9 per beat (even this is not a feat to be taken lightly), then you can ditch the subbeats and with a normal tala, proceed to wreak havoc on both your audience and your accompanists.

This along with the other laya lessons already covered, should be enough to handle nearly everything thrown at you. Almost. A few more lessons are pending.

Now that you have done this on your right leg, do it also with your left leg. A violinist may need to use a cushion from where his left foot can hang loosely over the edge of the cushion to get that space to tap. Please note that the movements for the left leg will be a mirror image of those on the right, but the notation is the same for both legs.

Why this? Because apart from the fact that some people are more comfortable with one leg than another, in the next lesson, you are going to use both your legs.... And when I'm done with you I'll ask your hands to join in.

Now you know why I wanted to do it all on 1 foot. :mrgreen:

SrinathK
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Re: Techniques to keep Taala for instrumentalists

Post by SrinathK »

And now the dreaded topic of putting tala on both feet, which you will need very rarely, unless you are tested by those laya specialists (ahem, terrorists :mrgreen: ). Or if you plan on creating rhythmic terror yourself. :D

I presume that all the laya exercises like the AMS ones, eduppu varsais or their more complex variations first with simply beating and then in various talas and nadais for the hands have been transferred to your feet. You should have tried them on both your left and right leg.

I also hope you have at least as a rasika, taken this concept to your nearby concert and tested the waters and found out how well it works for you.

Now get a notebook and a pen / pencil. Write down the two talas one below the other. Let's say you have decided to do Adi and roopaka talas. Their LCM works out to be 24, so 3 cycles of Adi and 8 of roopaka will coincide.

First start with tapping, and instead of proceeding to singing or playing, for the first beat, think of what you will be putting on your right foot and your left foot, as you so with the hands. And then the next. And so on.

First master the combined cycle movement. Write down the beats of each tala one below the other and if required, physically bend your foot and see it for yourself. The combined cycle will always have a unique pair for each beat.

For chapu talas, note that the half beat can create a complication where the beats are first aligned in sync, then they criss cross out of sync by 1/2 a beat. You must write down exactly where in the pattern will each beat come and how they overlap. Pay attention to every beat pair separately, then 2 beat pairs at a time, then 4, etc. Then get the entire pattern. Only then try to render the entire cycle in one go.

Then start with a laya exercise or a sarali or janta varsai at 1 note per beat, then 2, 4, maybe 8 if you can, then 1 note per 2 beats and 1 note per 4 beats. The notebook and pen are your best friends. Things will get complicated when you attempt more complex patterns or do eduppu exercises.

This in general is no different from mastering it on the hands.

There is a way to combine 2 talas in 2 different nadais, which you will get if you put 1 regular and 1 chapu tala or 2 chapu talas together. For further details on double talas, I will see if I can have a separate thread for it.

Using this same principle, you can combine legs and hands to do 3 talas at once, or even 4. You just need to know the combined sequence, which will be unique for each beat. It is not impossible or as tough as it seems. It's just a question of trying.

Ok, if you're sweating bullets, or all this 'academic mumbo jumbo' has turned you off, I have good news. We are going back to one foot. But next time, we will first take a look at the specific movements in guru, plutam and kakapadam and how I render them - namely krshya, sarpini, patakam and patitam. Then we can come to the 3 talangas. Next time, I will introduce you to 'the detachable foot' and a splash of color.

SrinathK
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Re: Techniques to keep Taala for instrumentalists

Post by SrinathK »

Hmm...no response. Guess they're all at TMK's concert featuring Allah and a growling tiger. ;)

Anyway, Lesson # 7. Add a bit of colour.

Next time you do the exercises, just as you start, think for one moment that there's a flash of green light illuminating your foot, or that some how your foot is in a 'green zone' immediately in front of you. Or remember a green signal on the first beat. You may even think of your foot in clear water with a tinge of light green. Or tapping on a bed of green grass. Anything you want.

I hope you all remember what a spectrum looks like right? I go with red on the left end, green in the middle, violet on the right.

So now think of the left end with a flash of red and keep tapping. You may imagine a Ferrari or a red cushion, anything.

Then, think of the right end with a flash of purple. Tap a pattern to it. A royal velvet purple cushion maybe.

Then come back to middle, back to green again.

Then do this with two additional colours - sky blue (literally think of your foot tapping in the sky and clouds) and brown (think either the garden earth or through the wooden stage).

This lesson could be skipped in favour of the next. But as a visual marker, it's useful for now.

SrinathK
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Re: Techniques to keep Taala for instrumentalists

Post by SrinathK »

So, after a long break, here I go once again. And now introducing the detachable foot. This requires a more advanced imagination, so you should have practiced the above exercises a lot and understood the concept of creating a small amount of tension through visualization and will power. You should have no problems feeling and visualizing any of the 35 talams.

Just imagine your foot is actually a 5 fingered boot with an ankle that can be detached like a dolls foot and placed anywhere you want (do not try it for real!!!!).

The question : What do you do for the more complex movements - krishya (handwave to the left + finger counts), sarpini (handwave right + finger counts), patakam (handwave up + finger counts) and patitam (handwave down + finger counts)?

This is what you do. First, do the usual movement for laghu of 4 counts on your right foot. FI-CN-BO-CO. We will now call this the centre zone. This zone is now only for laghu.

Then in a flash of red light, your right foot has now appeared on your left side (as if someone put it next to you). The foot facing left (ankle to toes), tapping the same 4 laghu count pattern. Or imagine that your right leg somehow instantly stretched all the way to your left side and your foot is tapping the laghu pattern there - this might create a tension on the inside of your thigh muscle. Or your ankle might have instinctively moved a bit further left than usual. Maybe your head moved left a bit. It's fine. It means you felt the difference at least by a millimeter.

The reason for red is to add to the visualization. You may also for simplicity visualize your foot now tapping and illuminated red in an area left of center.

You must synchornize the "teleportation" of your foot with the first beat of the tAlanga that you are counting. In other words, on the first beat of the laghu, your foot is instantly on your left side. Other beats will then happen as normal.

We will now put an additional L symbol in front of our usual notation. Therefore, the 4 laghu movement becomes LFI-LCN-LBO-LCO. This is the krishya.

For the sarpini, imagine your foot suddenly appeared in a flash of violet / purple colour on your right side like someone placed it on your right --- on the first beat.

The toes and the whole foot are pointing right instead and tapping as usual. We will then add an R to our notation and make it RFI-RCN-RBO-RCO. This is the sarpini. For additional visualization imagine a zone illuminated by purple light where you foot is tapping, right of center.

For patakam, in a flash of sky blue, think of your foot standing vertically on your head, facing vertically upward (ankle on the head, toes pointing up to the sky) and tapping (ok, now your tapping is perpendicular). Or imagine the urdha tandava murti, where Shiva has his foot facing up. The first beat will happen in this position, which means the visualization occurred instantly on the first beat.

So imagine there is a vertical plate for your foot to tap against, or imagine your foot tapping on your head. The sky blue conveys a memory of looking upward. So this is the upward zone. We shall now call this movement as UFI-UCN-UBO-UCO.

For patitam, do the exact opposite. In a flash of brown colour (for ground), imagine your foot fell through the floor like some trap door opened up and is now facing vertically downward (toes downward) -- and then the first beat of the laghu happens. It is tapping against a vertical surface. And it's illuminated by brown light. So we will put a D prefix and call this movement as DFI-DCN-DBO-DCO.

Put simple tAlas like tisra ekam, mishra chApu or roopakam in all 4 zones (left, right, up and down) to get the idea.

This was for chatushra jAti laghu. Now you can combine this concept with the other 4 laghus as well.

So what you basically did was, you tapped the same laghu beats as before, but you imagined your foot tapping to 4 different places in 4 different directions. That extra dimension is superimposed over the laghu beats

Using these four movements, you may then simulate a guru, plutam and kAkapadam. Now this is how I do it for chatushra jAti.
1) Guru - RFI-RCN-RBO-RCO-LFI-LCN-LBO-LCO -- Why this order of combination? Because to avoid confusion with laghu, plutam and kAkapadam. Basically 1st 4 beats with foot on right side, then next 4 beats with foot on left side.

2) Plutam - FI-CN-BO-CO-LFI-LCN-LBO-LCO-RFI-RCN-RBO-RCO - first 4 beats normal laghu, next 4 beats with foot on left side, next 4 beats with foot on right side.

3) kAkapadam - LFI-LCN-LBO-LCO-RFI-RCN-RBO-RCO-UFI-UCN-UBO-UCO-DFI-DCN-DBO-DCO - first 4 beats with foot on left side, next 4 beats with foot on right side, next 4 beats with foot on top of head, next 4 beats with foot under the ground.

All this applies to your right foot. If it were your left foot, just like with your left hand, you'd have to mirror the left and right movements. Up and down does not change.

With this, if you can integrate all the lessons, you can render all the tAlAs in Carnatic Music, in all kalais and naDais, and it will only be as difficult is it is on the hands.

There is another simpler visualization as well. Next post.
Last edited by SrinathK on 03 Dec 2018, 23:02, edited 3 times in total.

SrinathK
Posts: 2477
Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10

Re: Techniques to keep Taala for instrumentalists

Post by SrinathK »

Another way is to imagine 4 glass plates in front of you. The red plate is on your front left, the right plate is purple and on your front right. The sky blue plate is floating in the air at head level. The brown plate is located below the ground level (think if you're sitting on a platform on top of the stage and the plate is on the stage floor, it will be below the platform level).

Now if your foot instantly appears on the first beat on the left, red plate and taps the laghu beats there, that is krishya (L). Similarly, right purple plate is sarpini (R), top blue plate is for patakam (U) and the plate at the bottom is for patitam (D). For normal laghu, you assume your foot instantly attached itself back to your leg as normal. On all plates, your foot is tapping normally up and down. You just essentially tap the laghu on 4 different plates kept in 4 different directions.

This is a simpler visualization. By adding a directional component to the normal l, we can now execute the guru, plutam and kakapadam in chatushra jAti as follows :

1) Guru - RFI-RCN-RBO-RCO-LFI-LCN-LBO-LCO - 4 beats on the right plate, then 4 beats on the left plate
2) Plutam - FI-CN-BO-CO-LFI-LCN-LBO-LCO-RFI-RCN-RBO-RCO - 4 beats normal, then 4 beats on the left plate, and the next 4 on the right plate.
3) kAkapadam - LFI-LCN-LBO-LCO-RFI-RCN-RBO-RCO-UFI-UCN-UBO-UCO-DFI-DCN-DBO-DCO - 4 beats on left plate, next 4 on right, next 4 on top plate, next 4 on bottom plate.

If you use the left foot, the movements are mirrored. So left and right should swap. If you can work hard enough, you can actually do double talas on both feet even with these complicated angas.

I told you it is very difficult to communicate it through writing. But maybe you should try it for a few weeks and then you will suddenly get it.

And there we are. Now you can put any tAlA, even the Simhanandana, with knowledge of these movements.

Any easier ways? Well there is one. See, a video is worth a million words, so I will try to see if I can share a video of just what I am trying to suggest. In that video, I will show the visualization movements with my HANDS (because see, the foot can't do any of these movements, it can just tap up and down) which once you see them again and again and get it memorized will allow you to visualize those movements and count on your feet. This is very easy to show. The whole concept will be quite easily clear after that.

Pro Tip : If any of you have doubts about visualization, try using your hands to imitate the movements from post #122 onwards and tap your feet in sync with your hands. The hands can do all these movements and you can also move your arms to the left, right, over your head head and below your legs easily. Turn your hand sideways (thumbs up position) instead of palms down so that it will be oriented just like your foot will be while sitting down on the floor and try it. Your hands will show you what to visualize. You may even memorize the movements on your hands an then use those visualizations to guide the feet and they will work just as well.

As Albert Einstein once put it, Imagination is more powerful than knowledge. :mrgreen:

SrinathK
Posts: 2477
Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10

Re: Techniques to keep Taala for instrumentalists

Post by SrinathK »

I've copied my posts on this topic over to the tala and laya thread here : viewtopic.php?f=8&t=32223

@girish_a I haven't heard from you in months. Looking at the date since this thread was opened, it's been almost 11 years!

girish_a
Posts: 427
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 13:33

Re: Techniques to keep Taala for instrumentalists

Post by girish_a »

@SrinathK I just checked rasikas and saw your message. My apologies, I have been extremely busy and haven't been able to make time for this. But your new post gives me renewed inspiration. I will definitely try out your invaluable suggestions soon. Thanks a lot!

And yes, this thread is almost 11 years old! It was my very first rasikas post! I posted it almost the very minute I stumbled upon this lovely site on Google :)

SrinathK
Posts: 2477
Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10

Re: Techniques to keep Taala for instrumentalists

Post by SrinathK »

Would you believe me if I told you this was one of the first threads I ever found on this site? I can't recall just how I got to rasikas, must have been checking some bios of musicians or lyrics, but this thread was one of the first few ones I ever read here - because I was facing this problem as a student. Sometimes if we're really patient enough, things happen. :D

I am very pleased to tell you I have tested my techniques in all the concerts I attended in recent days to my satisfaction, it really does handle everything - but I need more practice for paying attention while handling tough naDais and in tanis. I also slightly tweaked the khanDa laghu pattern to a simpler one. (It's in the post).

I also realize I need more flexibility in my joints. Using a very small bean pillow and letting your foot hang of the edge of it gives a great increase in range of motion.

I have seen some violinists count using their bow hand while bowing. I tried that and I totally lost my bow. And it was harder than putting it on the feet. Junked.
Last edited by SrinathK on 01 Jan 2019, 17:11, edited 4 times in total.

SrinathK
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Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10

Re: Techniques to keep Taala for instrumentalists

Post by SrinathK »

The glass plate idea was also useful for handling back to back angas - like Dhruva tala - L+D+L+L. I could just visualize two glass plates in a zone and tap on one, then the other to demarcate the two laghus apart (a trick I do with my hands is to ever so slightly tap at a slightly different place for the 2nd laghu, works like a charm).

I had an idea to use the same technique for handling 2x or 4x kaLais. Make sure your tapping sequence is fixed.

So looking back, what did I do?

1) A visualization + feel sequence for each talAnga
2) naDai subbeats.

This alone is enough for all the 175 tAlas and the chApu tAlas and others in all eDuppus and even 2x and 4x kaLais on it's own

3) More complex visualizations. Concept of using 5 zones in 5 directions and colors for the 108 talas and their special angas - guru, plutam, kakapadam a.k.a. The glowing coloured glass plate technique.

4) Using multiple glass plates in a zone for back to back tALangas or multiple kaLai (2x or 4x). Just because it makes it easier. Not really necessary though. You never see anything more complex than 2 laghus or dhrutams back to back. And the hands don't have it easier.
Last edited by SrinathK on 01 Jan 2019, 16:53, edited 2 times in total.

SrinathK
Posts: 2477
Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10

Re: Techniques to keep Taala for instrumentalists

Post by SrinathK »

Some cheats:

Use the main artiste and take help from the percussion. If there's more than one percussion artiste on the team, one of them will almost always be kind enough to help you with the tAlA. Don't use the audience though. Most of them put it totally wrong for the simple stuff, and all of them put it beyond wrong for more complex stuff. :lol: :twisted:

99.5 % of the time, no one will test you with anything more than 1 tALa on 1 hand (Gayathri K will though :mrgreen:). You still don't need to use both your feet because she's putting the tALa for you. Nobody is so mean that they'll hide the tALa and expect you to read their mind. And if you are solo, I should just tell you that I have never seen any instrumentalist ever attempt a dwi tala pallavi on their feet, so you may actually be the first.

So you can in fact use your other foot for back to back tAlAngas. Or mark the first beat of the tala cycle, or the first beat of a laghu or dhrutam by tapping with both feet.

You may in fact physically flex your big toe on the first beat of a tAlA or on the first beat of a tAlAnga. Earlier I considered doing this all the time in imitation of the fingers, but after a few rounds of continuous flexing resulted in some rather painful muscle pulls, I realized this wasn't going to work. For me to do this routinely I should have kept flexing my toes from infancy. Still it may be used for the occasional marker. It will also coincide with the visualizations.

You may tap the laghu portion of Adi tala on one foot, and the dhrutam portion with the another.

You may, as a shortcut for guru, tap a laghu on one foot (I prefer to start with the foot you don't normally use) and the 2nd laghu on the other (the regular) foot. This will distinguish it. And you will not need to use the more complex visualization. For talas using only guru as the complicated anga, this will work.

You can also use your other foot to help you mark the first beat of a complex naDai. So one foot puts the naDai sub-beats beat, another simply counts the main beats.

If you're tested with 4 kaLai or more (I have not actually seen even a single 4 kaLai pallavi or more in recent years anywhere), each beat will need 4 or more taps. You could split those 4 or 8 50:50 on either foot.

You will get many opportunities all the time where your hands will be free and only the percussion or your other soloist / accompanist, will be playing. This includes all interludes and manodharma reply parts. Use them. You can put the tAla on your hands whenever you don't need to play.

Have someone capable on stage or in the front row keeping the tALa. Ok, now I am really cheating :lol: , but hey I've seen it. It could even be the tambura artiste. And what do you think many nagaswara musicians do? They have a guy on the cymbals paid for the job.

Do an instrumental duet. This is the mother of cheats, and it can make this thread irrelevant. :twisted: When one of you needs to improvise, the other can guide you along. It will also help that the back and forth replies and challenges will add far more spice to a concert than an individual solo. :mrgreen:

:ugeek:

girish_a
Posts: 427
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 13:33

Re: Techniques to keep Taala for instrumentalists

Post by girish_a »

Have been experimenting with a few of these techniques...will post an update.

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