Need Info on Veena Frets

Ideas and innovations in Indian classical music
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sriram1974
Posts: 36
Joined: 17 Jun 2018, 07:49

Need Info on Veena Frets

Post by sriram1974 »

Dear Forum members,
I am new to this forum and this is my first post; (I had been reading several of esteemed members' posts and I believe the rasikas forum is veritably a treasure trove of knowledge on Carnatic music including technical and innovation aspects.)

I would be much obliged if the knowledgeable members could share the following info:
i. Fret Dimensions (Diameter, Length of any one fret) and typical materials used.
ii. Scale length - distance from nut to bridge. (This is essentially the length of the open string; I am guessing that it would be around 80 cm)

I do not have access to a Veena and am planning an experiment trying to fix veena frets (rather, the equivalent size fret) to a guitar and would be greatly obliged if someone could provide me with the details.

Thanks in advance,
Sriram

Manian
Posts: 76
Joined: 09 Aug 2020, 13:48

Re: Need Info on Veena Frets

Post by Manian »

The right place would be Veena sellers and makers in Tanjore. or please send an email to Kalashetra who might help you.

baradu2
Posts: 39
Joined: 28 Jun 2009, 09:37

Re: Need Info on Veena Frets

Post by baradu2 »

Great question! Sadly no Veenas are made with standardize size and shape. So, speaking length is not fixed for a Veena. To make matters worse, the frets are not made in equal length too. They are cast, keeping the fretboard width in mind. Slightly bigger size Veenas with 14.5 or 14.75 inch diameter would likely have frets which range from 57mm to 61mm, which would mean that their fretboard width would be in the range of 2.25 inches and 2.40 inches, unlike the smaller sized veenas of diameter 13.95-14.25 inch which are more likely to have frets of range 55 to 58 which again would mean that the fretboard length would be in the range of 2 inches to 2.25. Again no fixed template. The height of the bridge also changes from 1.70 inches to 1.90 inches depending on the diameter of the resonator and hence the variations in the speaking length per Veena. So, the string distance between the 1st and 2nd string also is not constant and changes depending on all these factors.
All of this would apply keeping in mind that the bridge you are placing is at the absolute centre of the Veena. Also re-fretting the Veena is a very common thing that has to be done once every few years if you play the Veena often, since the frets are usually made from brass or copper and are prone to wear and tear due to friction and/or moisture. This would also alter the tone and in many cases alter the bridge and/or frets' height. The feather on the hat is the Veena's special feature of defying helmholtz law because of its multi-contact point bridge unlike the guitar which has single contact point bridge. Which in conclusion means that, even if you get the Veena made from the same guy with same specs, with identical bridge heights and merus(guitar nut) with identical bridge midpoint placement, you would still have a slight variation in the fret positions if the resonator top plate's (the wooden area where the bridge is resting) height or meru's height changes even a wee bit. Or even if the heights of both and length of both are exactly same, then too depending on the placement/curvature of the bridge plate and depending on the string's contact point on the bridge (since it's a multi-contact point bridge) the position of the frets will vary mildly. In essence, please do all the necessary experiments in the Veena that you have. The results of it will definitely change if you try in a new Veena.
As regards the guitar, the speaking length of the guitar too ranges from 24.50 inches to 29.5 inches. Fender fixed theirs at 25.5 and 26.5. Baritone guitars are in the 29.5 inches category and beyond that you find bass guitars starting at 30.5 inches, some going on till 33 inches too. Their string thickness and strings' distances are way different from our Veena!
Good luck experimenting! 🙏 😊

Nick H
Posts: 9379
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03

Re: Need Info on Veena Frets

Post by Nick H »

When browsing becomes surfing!
the frets are not made in equal length too. They are cast, keeping the fretboard width in mind.
I read this and doubted that they would be cast. I don't know (and @baradu2 obviously is much more knowledgable than me) but just, why would they be? I would expect them to be cut from a length of brass rod. Unless the maker has no such supplier. But to cast them would be another whole trip, another completely separate set of skills in the making of the instrument.

Intrigued by this, and having always wondered about how the wax is applied, and the frets fixed, to a veena, I found this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwaKTpSO3Es

It is more amazing than I could have imagined! That all this is done by hand, eye, and ear, is just astonishing.

Web pages on the whole process of making the veena: https://www.dsource.in/resource/saraswathi-veena-making

Excusing me taking off on the point off "casting. It's just that I have an interest in metal things and how they are made. I'm so glad that I did: it took me on a fascinating internet journey.

baradu2
Posts: 39
Joined: 28 Jun 2009, 09:37

Re: Need Info on Veena Frets

Post by baradu2 »

To delve into the idea itself is very nice. Casting or welding is done because the fret by itself is a rod on top, that has two legs at the bottom of it which gets gripped by the wax. Else as a stand alone rod, unless it is glued or hammered onto a solid base like wood, will not be useful in itself since there is no bottom support. The legs make the rod look like an inverted ப and these legs when gripped by the wax, stay securely in place unless the wax is too wet or not strong enough. The legs of the fret that make it the shape of inverted ப can either be cast or three pieces can be welded together to make a single fret, ie one rod of roughly 5mm thickness welded on either sides with respective legs. The welding has to be precise when welding onto a rod, since missing the mid point of the rod is more often the case when welding by hand and thus wasting a perfectly fine piece of rod. Whereas a good enough welding will still solve the problem if the top piece of the fret is a rectangular metal bar arched on the top alone so that any area of the bottom part can still be used for welding. But if rod is what is preferred in general, then, casting is more sensible since the shape can be achieved easier. Please do search for guitar fret and you will understand what I mean. Guitar frets are in the thickness of 2.95mm which is not at all enough for our purpose and the height of the legs are too small for our purpose. Guitar frets are made in a particular shape and are meant to be hammered onto the fret. Veena frets have legs and are meant to have them so that they stay in place when combined the wax. Its difficult but possible to hammer Veena frets onto wood and make wood melam, but unless we make Veena frets in the shape of the guitar frets, it will be difficult. Making Veena frets like that of the guitar will then need more thickness on the frets to keep them strongly in place due to the fact that we scallop our Veena fretboard and the edges of the frets and the wax ends need to be strong. This generally makes the Veena fretboard heavier. Hope this helps.

Nick H
Posts: 9379
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03

Re: Need Info on Veena Frets

Post by Nick H »

Very interesting... Did you watch the video I linked? You obviously don't need to watch it all, although you might enjoy, but the placing of the frets starts at 5.30. It's clearly rod, with no legs. I guess there is more than one way of doing things!

I am no engineer or metal worker. Just a few years of home-hobby jewellery making. Certainly I could solder. And that is red-heat soldering, not the tin stuff. Jewellers call it soldering, others call it brazing. The shape you describe could be fairly easily made by brazing, and there would be no lack of precision. I melted, cast, and rolled out a bag of silver scrap just once. OK, to say "I" did it is an exaggeration: I went to a friend's workshop to use his equipment, and was quickly daunted by the task. It was easy for him of course and yes, if one is used to the work, brass would be pretty similar.

I have the contacts to go and watch mridangam makers at work (and have) but not so veena makers/repairers. Maybe one day!

Nick H
Posts: 9379
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03

Re: Need Info on Veena Frets

Post by Nick H »

@baradu2 ...

You mean like these? I can see from the rough finish that they are probably cast too. Wouldn't such a rough finish affect the playing?

I see also that these frets are not round, but have a flatter curve on the top.

baradu2
Posts: 39
Joined: 28 Jun 2009, 09:37

Re: Need Info on Veena Frets

Post by baradu2 »

Nick H wrote: 01 Feb 2022, 13:57 @baradu2 ...

You mean like these? I can see from the rough finish that they are probably cast too. Wouldn't such a rough finish affect the playing?

I see also that these frets are not round, but have a flatter curve on the top.
Yes they are cast and the job of the melam guy when he re-does the Veena melam, is to polish it before doing the fretting. And over the years as the Vainika plays, the friction between the steel/stainless steel strings and the brass/copper frets cause friction which in itself leads to more buffing and polishing, till the point where any more of buffing of the fret would lead to warping of the fret downwards. When this happens, the current fret in which the warping happens, will get replaced with a newer one, which agian goes through the same grind. The shape as you rightly pointed out, since is cast, can be attained exactly due to the above mentioned reason. The one that I had previously mentioned (shaping a rectangular bar to the shape of half moon and welding the legs onto them) will be ideal if you are planning to go for mild steel or stainless steel instead of brass or copper.

baradu2
Posts: 39
Joined: 28 Jun 2009, 09:37

Re: Need Info on Veena Frets

Post by baradu2 »

Nick H wrote: 01 Feb 2022, 04:32 Did you watch the video I linked? You obviously don't need to watch it all, although you might enjoy, but the placing of the frets starts at 5.30. It's clearly rod, with no legs. I guess there is more than one way of doing things!
Infact you can see the two small protrusions as legs in the video when the guy takes the fret into his hand and tries fixing on the wax!

Nick H
Posts: 9379
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03

Re: Need Info on Veena Frets

Post by Nick H »

@baradu2 ...

Thank you for your wonderful insights and education!

It is fascinating to know how things work and how they are made.

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