Deliberate Practice

Ideas and innovations in Indian classical music
Post Reply
vasanthakokilam
Posts: 10956
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Deliberate Practice

Post by vasanthakokilam »

I recently heard about this concept of 'deliberate practice' in the Freakanomics podcast on the topic of 'How to Become Great at Just About Anything'
http://freakonomics.com/podcast/peak/

Though it sounds like a click bait headline it is a serious program and so I listened.

What they said reminded me of some of the principles our Akellaji has put in his method of teaching.

If you don't have time to listen to the podcast, here is a brief write up on 'deliberate practice'
which seems to capture the essentials they talk about there.

http://expertenough.com/1423/deliberate-practice

I will post a link to this post in the AMS teaching method topic

Rsachi
Posts: 5039
Joined: 31 Aug 2009, 13:54

Re: Deliberate Practice

Post by Rsachi »

VKM,
Cardinal truth if you ask me! That's been my approach during my education and career.
Key sentence:
This means understanding your weaknesses and inventing specific tasks in your practice to address those deficiencies.

I think the high-level performers in CM all exemplify this method. I have watched their progress from being fresh talent to reaching masterr in their art. After a point the public sees an aura sround such masters. But watch them in their quiet moments and you know how they are focussed and always work at it.

A ready example: many Tamilian singers struggle with Kannada lyrics. But those who master their art work at it and get it right. I am not a nit-picker so I can appreciate their hardwork and how they have gone from say 70% to 90% right - truly commendable.

Thank you. This approach works in every field.

Rsachi
Posts: 5039
Joined: 31 Aug 2009, 13:54

Re: Deliberate Practice

Post by Rsachi »

And deliberate practice requires a teacher. Period. We call them coaches and mentors these days.

Nick H
Posts: 9379
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03

Re: Deliberate Practice

Post by Nick H »

vasanthakokilam wrote:I recently heard about this concept of 'deliberate practice' ... ... ...
How can you have just heard of something you must have known about all your life?
To learn any new skill or gain expertise you need to practice, practice, practice. There isn’t much debate about that.

But here’s what you might not know: scientific research shows that the quality of your practice is just as important as the quantity.

And, more interestingly, these scientists also believe that expert-level performance is primarily the result of expert-level practice NOT due to innate talent.
Everybody from musician to craftsman knows this stuff. Nothing new here, except the name, perhaps.

There is one thing not taken into account, though, and that is the few who can soar to success without all-day-every-day practice. It happens!

And of course, it gives pause for thought: Yes, even I could have become a mridangist --- which is pretty much what my guru told us all: practice half an hour a day if you just want to be able to play, but you'll need six to eight hours a day if you want to make it your profession.

In the arts, though, I am not so sure that any amount of practice can produce imagination and creativity if the original spark is not there.

rshankar
Posts: 13754
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:26

Re: Deliberate Practice

Post by rshankar »

Interesting that only physicians and lawyers do it even as they work - 'practice' law or medicine - deliberately or otherwise? ;)
Could not resist that!!!

Nick H
Posts: 9379
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03

Re: Deliberate Practice

Post by Nick H »

Yes! In that context, I always hope that practice does make perfect! :lol:

vasanthakokilam
Posts: 10956
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Re: Deliberate Practice

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Nick, I do not know if this is same as what I have known all my life, though it sounds like common sense.

But I have a feeling you may be quick to jump to a conclusion that this is same as 'Practice, Practice, Practice'. I guess the devil is in the details and I urge you to listen to it and see if there is anything there.

Ravi, you are right that physicians do that, and when I first listened to this, it just sounds like common sense and what engineers do as well.

But here are a couple of key points they make there.

- Innate talent is over rated.
- Quantity of practice does not cut it. This is an opposite point of view to what Malcolm Gladwell popularized, the magical 10000 hours practice.
Nick, this is the sense I am talking about. Whether you agree with it or not, this is not the same as what your Guru told you or Gurus tell all their students

Having said that, this may not be any different from what CM teachers do but rather implicitly.

The word 'deliberate' is there to emphasize two aspects.

1) this is a very well focussed 'improvement' method and their research shows that this is what causes change and not just performing concerts or practicing what you have learned. Sachi quotes the key line from there above "understanding your weaknesses and inventing specific tasks in your practice to address those deficiencies".. Again sounds like an obvious thing to do but I guess not a lot of people do not do it that way in a methodical fashion. One aspect of this process is one needs 'feedback' in all the phases

a) figure out the weakness,
b) device the method and
c) practice to improve
d) Rinse and repeat

You do need a teacher to provide that feedback. But it does not have to be like old gurukulam, it can be done remotely these days. Also, from my experience, most teachers are good at guiding people on 'a', and 'c' but I am not sure they are well equipped to do 'b'

2) The other aspect is to deliberately get out of your comfort zone. There are some examples of actual data they looked at in various disciplines including Cab Drivers and Bus Drivers and how a lady in Denmark used this method to become a popular singer from someone who can just 'sing'.

I am also trying to figure out if this is all much ado about nothing or there is something there.

Nick H
Posts: 9379
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03

Re: Deliberate Practice

Post by Nick H »

(I looked at the article but did not listen to the podcast)
I am also trying to figure out if this is all much ado about nothing or there is something there.
Not only is there something there, there is a lot there! It bears repeating, and it bears repeating in whatever language can be understood.

I have not been watching TV for a decade or two, but some of the best material that I saw before that was some of the "reality" shows. Not the ones based on putting pressurised human interaction under the microscope, but the ones where a person with no prior experience of a skill or art sets out to accomplish something fairly advanced within that art. equipped with only their own resource and expert teachers. It demonstrates what can be achieved with a great deal of cleverly targeted hard work.

I'm afraid that the "talent" thing (although some seem to have it and get a head start from it) is often a cop-out excuse preferred by those of us (Yes, speaking personally) that simply did not put in the work.

vasanthakokilam
Posts: 10956
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Re: Deliberate Practice

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Nick, I put in that statement you quote in accordance with you said earlier that these are not anything new and I should have known this all along. I do not doubt that so I wanted to check that out myself. I am trying to figure out if this requires a new name or just what people have been doing all along. I thought the latter was your point earlier and dismissive of the fact this may be anything new.

In any case, you are in sync with what they are saying. And to be specific, item b) in my list above is critical and not just practice the same thing again and again to achieve improvement. It may achieve perfection in that thing one repeats but this is not about that. It is about going up the ladder, As you succinctly say 'Cleverly targeted hard work'

I think it comes down to this. When you read the process, it looks obvious. But there are practical difficulties in putting it into practice . The chief among them is to figure out the feedback aspects of it (finding someone qualified enough to give you feedback as you grow ) and figuring out what exactly it means 'to go beyond the comfort zone'. Going way too far, while it is easy, is not the answer. It has to be away from your comfort zone but still within possible reach and something that expands with you as you grow. ( again these words to describe the difficuties do not quite capture the true difficulty ). In that podcast, they cite some examples which may provide some context.

vasanthakokilam
Posts: 10956
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Re: Deliberate Practice

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Ravi, regarding the point you mention about the 'practice' aspects of physicians, they talk about that in the podcast. Going by the general grain, they take a dim view of physicians who just have N years of 'practice'. They say that does not do any good beyond a point. But they make an exception to surgeons since typically they encounter a lot of variations that they have to deal with. I am just reporting what they said, it will be interesting how broadly such things are true. Is it same as what we call well-roundedness? I guess that is one part of it but only one part

Nick H
Posts: 9379
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03

Re: Deliberate Practice

Post by Nick H »

Yes, VK... off the cuff reaction, Nothing new here, let's move on...

More considered reaction... OK, so it is not new, but it is still true, and actually looks good

:oops: :D

vasanthakokilam
Posts: 10956
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Re: Deliberate Practice

Post by vasanthakokilam »

btw, that is the same sequence of thoughts I went through as I was listening to it :)

Now, I need to test it out on a goal I have which is to learn to play the melodies on the flute based on just hearing them ( including some old film songs, Tamil and Hindi ). My goals are well stated and bounded. In another thread, I have got the techniques and methods from ganesh_mourthy, Srinath and others. Ragasurabhi has an excellent quiz on this very topic, 350 and counting. This can be my feedback mechanism, not on if my methods are correct but to test if I am improving. That covers a) and b).

Now it is on me to do c) and d).

SrinathK
Posts: 2477
Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10

Re: Deliberate Practice

Post by SrinathK »

http://www.creativitypost.com/arts/the_ ... the_violin -- since you asked @vasanthakokilam

"...Nathan Milstein who once asked his teacher Leopold Auer how many hours a day he should be practicing. Auer responded by saying “Practice with your fingers and you need all day. Practice with your mind and you will do as much in 1 1/2 hours...” Or as Itzhak Perlman puts it, "Think 10 times, play once".

Tip #1, Before playing a passage, plan ahead and try to work out how to play it (left and right hands for a violin, and the legs for the tala) -- it yields way better results than just playing on blind instinct.

Tip #2, Always use your EARS to find the correct pitch of a note, don't use your fingers. Use a reference instrument if required, but it's still the ears that find the pitch. It's only important that the hand is in the correct position (the feedback comes from the palm and the thumb and where they contact the instrument), but the fingers alone can never find the correct note.

Tip #3, Contrary to all instinct, Virtuoso playing is all about developing control at slower speeds and comfort at higher speeds, but is never achieved by torturing your hands past your limits of control.

Tip #4, One can only play easily when one has a reservoir of capability bigger than what is actually needed for the music.

As an example, the man himself playing Paganini Caprice # 5 : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kyN4L7Zsyos -- You can tell by the effortlessness of the rendition that it was well thought out, there is not a wasted motion anywhere. And no, while these violinists practiced their scales well, they didn't waste time repeating them 1000x times at maximum speed and restarting even if a single mistake was made -- that is actually an extremely unproductive way to practice. They measure their practice by goals and specific progress rather than the input.

Tip #5, Much of the practice that the Indian violinist needs is to meet the demands of improvization and to be ready to play for whatever may be tossed his way. And that in turn consists of overcoming 4 main barriers -- a) The ear - memory barrier b) The brain - instrument barrier and c) The instrument - laya barrier and in solos d) The idea - instrument barrier

Tip #6, A good instrument that is well set up and tuned, allowing you to shape your tone is a must for progress.

Tip #7, Weak laya skill WILL stop your progress and hit confidence very badly.

Tip #8, Weak shruti and gamaka skills are a raga and bhava killer.

Tip #9, Manodharma is much closer to deliberate research and learning a language than it is to mere spontaneous instinct.

varsha
Posts: 1978
Joined: 24 Aug 2011, 15:06

Re: Deliberate Practice

Post by varsha »

A ready example: many Tamilian singers struggle with Kannada lyrics
glorious exception
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxf85SGmGxw

varsha
Posts: 1978
Joined: 24 Aug 2011, 15:06

Re: Deliberate Practice

Post by varsha »

deliberate ????
Watch one of the disciples keenly.Poetry on the faces . Gurus like a stonewall versus students like a ....
Both sensitive to the minutest of impulses.
Is this music an Art ?. Or a science ? Or something beyond ....

thenpaanan
Posts: 635
Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 19:45

Re: Deliberate Practice

Post by thenpaanan »

I wonder how to put this into actual practice in the context of practicing vocal Carnatic music.

Long before these articles pointed to above, I read one about the practice regime of an Olympic long jumper (probably Mike Powell) -- this athlete would never actually do the entire long jump during practice leading to a competition. He would separately practice the sprint, the leap, the fall, etc and only put the whole thing together at the competition jump itself. He said this gave him greater ability to make his body do his bidding without thinking when it mattered most. I interpreted that as reducing mental clutter by not having multiple things to do at the same time.

The question is how does one bring this advice to music practice. Some examples from my own practice.

1. Pick a particular line for neraval that I have been thinking about for a while. Then actually practice just the neraval but without singing the composition in full.
2. Sometimes sing just an alapana without anything related to it before or after and focus on something smaller -- just a part of an octave or a sequence that has been hard to do.
3. Sing particular swara korvais directly without any preamble.
4. Sometimes just some simple varisais are enough if done slowly and methodically.
5. Once in a while practice like you are supposed to (if there is such a thing) -- varnams, akaram, etc.
6. Pay more attention and time to things I would never do on stage -- such as warm ups, breathing, etc.

I am quite sure most people who practice seriously (and many who are on this forum) do these things above and more. They may not call it "deliberate practice".

But I have never seen any discussion on this vital question of "how to practice?" in CM on this forum (except for the redoubtable Akellaji). I would love a vigorous discussion on this topic, especially experiential notes from fellow amateur/professional practitioners.

-Thenpaanan

Rsachi
Posts: 5039
Joined: 31 Aug 2009, 13:54

Re: Deliberate Practice

Post by Rsachi »

Mr. Thenappan,. You seem to be the right one to answer this question. A young vidushi has recently won big prizes for her singing. She is obviously trained very well in Carnatic music and cutcheri paddhati. In other words, everything seems to be going well for her.
But I found her constant, sharp, and loud intakes of breath mid-phrase quite a put-off.
Please explain,
1. Are these grunts a specific gharana/school thing?
2. Are these grunts passé just like the grunts on a tennis court, now common but damned unwelcome 20 years ago?
3. Can a vidwan/vidushi overcome grunts, if so, how, when?

Rsachi
Posts: 5039
Joined: 31 Aug 2009, 13:54

Re: Deliberate Practice

Post by Rsachi »

Varsha!!!
That enitu initu I kannaDanuDiyu is fromthe TRS concert at Parvathi! Gratefully pirated by someone and shared on Youtube.
Saw your post just now, sir. Don't mind telling you I had great fun researching and writing about the poem in the Parvathi blog.

Full marks to the one and only TRS!

varsha
Posts: 1978
Joined: 24 Aug 2011, 15:06

Re: Deliberate Practice

Post by varsha »

Piracy hO tO aisa !!!
Some day I hope to tag all these data , if I live to be two hundred years !!!!

thenpaanan
Posts: 635
Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 19:45

Re: Deliberate Practice

Post by thenpaanan »

Rsachi wrote:Mr. Thenappan,. You seem to be the right one to answer this question. A young vidushi has recently won big prizes for her singing. She is obviously trained very well in Carnatic music and cutcheri paddhati. In other words, everything seems to be going well for her.
But I found her constant, sharp, and loud intakes of breath mid-phrase quite a put-off.
Please explain,
1. Are these grunts a specific gharana/school thing?
2. Are these grunts passé just like the grunts on a tennis court, now common but damned unwelcome 20 years ago?
3. Can a vidwan/vidushi overcome grunts, if so, how, when?

I can tell you what little I know. Breathing is obviously a vital part of singing but breathing contributes to more than just the air provided for the exhale while singing. One can write a small essay on all the intricacies of breathing but for the context here there are two aspects to the answer.

1. Breathing in grunts as you called them (others have called them wheezes) or in sharp audible inhales is an inefficient method of air intake for any purpose. This is just mechanics of breathing and nothing in particular for singing. The only exception to this rule that I know of is in deliberate constricted breathing in a particular yogasana (whose name has slipped my mind just now). If you hear a sound while breathing in that means that you have friction and if you are laboring to breathe in there is probably a more efficient way to breathe that will take in more air in less time. Of course this is a general answer that may not be appropriate every time. The individual in question may have some other reason for the audible inhalation such as a cold or asthma, so not to paint everything with one broad brush.

2. There is a second and more important dimension to this question that is a bit more universal than the first point and that is that there is a need for voice support to make singing effortless and uniform. This is the idea that you should have a reservoir of air at the bottom of your lungs to create a constant buffer for singing. The idea of "nAbhi" singing that we hear talked about a lot is an abstraction and not an actionable idea. What it is actually ends up being in practice it seems to me is control of your diaphragm for breathing and for singing. Westerners call this reservoir creation "supporting your voice." There is a lot of stuff online on "voice support" -- how to make a constant non-collapsing potbelly while singing and using only diaphragm muscles to sing up and down the scale etc. In the current context of your question, inhaling deep and sharp (whether audible or not) means the singer has lost his/her reservoir in singing the phrase just prior to that inhale. (Of course it is possible that they were not aiming to maintain the reservoir in the first place.) But if you intend to support your voice then you should not be grunting when singing because you should allow yourself to never reach a point where you are so out of breath that you have to gasp.

To summarize, breathing should not be audible. Sometimes the sound cannot be eliminated especially if mics are held close to the mouth, but the aim should always be to minimize the sound of breathing at all times.

I dont think this is a gharana thing but likely an individual style thing. Some singers like to sing extremely long phrases that cause them to singing until every ounce of breath is expended. I dont know if this is necessarily a modern phenomenon but even within the music available to us there are valuable lessons -- contrast this aspect between artists such as TNS (who has lots of loud wheezes) and even a Madurai Somu (also habitual but to less extent) with a MSS or a KVN or a BMK or a Bhimsen Joshi where you don't hear their intake at all even when they sing long phrases. Sometimes singers breath loudly for theatrics but that is all it is. Whatever you think of the other aspects of their singing you can decide for yourself which is the better way to go on this particular aspect.

Expending all your available breath is also not an advisable strategy for the simple reason that the last few bars of your singing will become weaker -- at least in my opinion one should aim for equal volume (especially when singing a single musical phrase). Also I suspect that the TNS approach will get harder and harder to execute as one ages.

How to avoid this? I don't have a simple answer to this question because singing and breathing are so intimately connected and there is a way to sing for each individual who has ever lived. My own experience with diaphragm control is that you end up taking many shallow breaths that are inaudible even with a heads up mic. But it takes some getting used to. Initially you feel out of breath all the time but slowly you learn to overcome that feeling. Having the reservoir at least for me has led to much reduced effort in singing and the ability to maintain a uniform volume over long phrases.

The other thing that you have to do is to plan your breathing in the context of each line. A very long time ago I had posted in the rasikas forum this question: if you take a specific line like "brOva bhAaramA raghurAmA" where do you breathe so that you never run out of breath and you never cut any word in the wrong place? After a long time I have concluded simply that it takes some analysis of your breathing power and a strategy. Remember that the line cannot be taken in isolation but is part of a much longer cycle. You have to be prepared to sing brOva after raghurAma and similarly the bhuvana that starts the next line and so on. Singing Dikshitar kritis is an especially delightful challenge. Someone who managed breath budget very well was MDR. Listen to how he phrases everything whether in an alapana or within a kriti. You never feel that he ran out of breath. At first I thought he was breaking everything up but on closer analysis you realize that he uses exceptionally long phrases but he budgets them carefully but seemingly effortlessly. Another person to learn breathing control from is Smt Vedavalli. She can sing enormously long lines, such as an entire Ata tala varnam avartanam without the slightest dip in energy. She has obviously put in enormous effort in training her breath control.

-Thenpaanan

Rsachi
Posts: 5039
Joined: 31 Aug 2009, 13:54

Re: Deliberate Practice

Post by Rsachi »

Thank you. I think the word to describe that pranayama technique you mentioned is Ujjayi. Right?

thenpaanan
Posts: 635
Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 19:45

Re: Deliberate Practice

Post by thenpaanan »

Rsachi wrote:Thank you. I think the word to describe that pranayama technique you mentioned is Ujjayi. Right?
Yes, ujjayi was the word I was looking for. Thank you. Pulmonologists (at least some of them) tell us that breathing in and out slowly and in a sustained manner through a deliberately restricted glottis, which is exactly what ujjayi is, increases lung capacity. The deliberate part seems important. Otherwise snoring would be an advantage. :D

Thenpaanan

shankarank
Posts: 4042
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Deliberate Practice

Post by shankarank »

thenpaanan wrote:
1. Pick a particular line for neraval that I have been thinking about for a while. Then actually practice just the neraval but without singing the composition in full.
2. Sometimes sing just an alapana without anything related to it before or after and focus on something smaller -- just a part of an octave or a sequence that has been hard to do.
3. Sing particular swara korvais directly without any preamble.
4. Sometimes just some simple varisais are enough if done slowly and methodically.
5. Once in a while practice like you are supposed to (if there is such a thing) -- varnams, akaram, etc.
6. Pay more attention and time to things I would never do on stage -- such as warm ups, breathing, etc.
Don't worry! That is the next phase of evolution of an art music presentation waiting to happen! :lol:

Post Reply