Absolute Frequencies of CM vocal and instruments

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vasanthakokilam
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Absolute Frequencies of CM vocal and instruments

Post by vasanthakokilam »

mahavishnu, a question related to this. Using the Cn convention, where do male, female and typical CM instruments ( both melodic and percussion ) fall for the same kattai? In case you know the info off hand or can point to some material... I have been meaning to figure this out myself with some software but have been lethargic to get started.

mahavishnu
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Re: Jugalbandhi - Sikkil Mala Chandrasekhar & Anupama Bhagwa

Post by mahavishnu »

VK: The typical male voice is set to C2 (also called deep C) ~~ 65Hz. Of course MDR's sruti is lower (A1-B1 range) and SG Kittappa (G2) is higher ;)

The Mridangam is typically tuned to C2 as well, but the violin's sa (third string) is usually tuned to a C3 if the vocalist's basic shadjam is at C2. Many contemporary male singers sing with shadjam at about D2. This is usually going by the modal register of the voice at phonation (in general most of CM is set to the natural speech frequency). Below this register is the vocal fry register and above are the whistle and falsetto register (absolute no no in CM). More on modal frequencies here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modal_voice

It is interesting that the typical western classical singer's shadjam is much much higher, even for a tenor. See here Andrea Bocelli with perfect shruti suddham singing at a C3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcrfvP11Hbo

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Jugalbandhi - Sikkil Mala Chandrasekhar & Anupama Bhagwa

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Great info Mahavishnu. Thanks. I will check out the links.

uday_shankar
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Re: Jugalbandhi - Sikkil Mala Chandrasekhar & Anupama Bhagwa

Post by uday_shankar »

vk and mahavishnu,

Am sitting in Pittsburgh jetlagged and nursing a horrible sinus infection. Hence this timing:). Some points:

1. The typical Carntic male voice shruti of 1 kattai is actually C3 or about 131Hz not C2.

2. MDR mostly sang at G# or to be exaxt at G#2 or about 104Hz. The following is a good example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SVBjp_gJlo
I've heard MDR go an entire octave lower than his aadhara shadja (there's a shree raga alapana from the 1965 MA concert). So that would put him at the near limits of the human voice not to speak of the ear! One of us can check what key that was...considering it was when MDR was about 42 years old, maybe it was closer to B2 (123Hz) or something like that. That would still put his lower Sa at a crazy 61Hz.

I've heard Shasikiran and T.M. Krishna touch the "deep C" or C2 at 65Hz.

I've heard other singers get lost in the high C's :).

2. It follows that many Carnatic male singers sing with D3 as their madhya sthayi shadja, i.e., 147Hz.

3. The most common choice of shruti for Carnatic women is G3 or 196Hz.

4. In the bocelli recording the tune starts of in the G key and he traverses mostly between G3 and G4 (more precisely from about D3 to G4), the latter during his flashes to mel-Sa. Around 3:16 there's a tonic shift in the tune to A and then he traverses between A3 and A4. The finishing "kaarvai" is at A4 which, of course sounds too elevated (i.e., in terms of "shruti shuddham") to a Carnatic ear prejudiced on a need for absolute consonace, mainly due to the pesky vibrato that pervades all of western classical singing. It seems vibrato too can be overdone...(like the inflections and vallinams/mellinams of the Lalgudi school :p).


The following link may be useful to juxtapose absolute frequencies (use the pinao keys). I use it sometimes for my "researches", particularly wrt octave determination of a particular tone. Octave determination has to be done a little carefully, asking oneself the question "is this the same frequency" rather than "is this the same swara".

http://www.harpkit.com/mm5/merchant.mvc ... nlinetuner

Will post more when I wake up on violin tunings, etc...
Last edited by uday_shankar on 03 Jan 2013, 20:02, edited 3 times in total.

uday_shankar
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Re: Jugalbandhi - Sikkil Mala Chandrasekhar & Anupama Bhagwa

Post by uday_shankar »

Continued as promised...

Mridangam tuning

The mridangam is also tuned to C3, not the deep C. Here's a clip of UKS randomly picked from youtube. nominally tuned to C or 1 kattai. Now juxtapose that with the piano tuning link above and click on C2 (deep C) and C3 determine where the pitch is (you really don't need a DFT for this but I can do it if you need proof :) - I personally like Fermi tests, the quick and dirty way to ballpark something, in this case using nothing more than one's ears!). I can also swear that during Sivaraman sir's arai chappu (unfortunately not found in this, only full chappu here) I can hear the octave or C4. In general, the mridangam, especially in the hands of UKS sir, is so rich in harmonics that I feel I can always hear the C4, even in full chappu or even sometimes the "nam" with the forefinger.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dokXCebn8rQ

As a bonus in the end, you can check the vocalist at then end ofthe piece, in Panchama (i.e.G). You will find OST's panchama is G3, i.e., a fifth above his aadhara C3. And the violinists is G4. Which is a good way to segue to violin tuning...

Violin tuning

1. The highest pitch I've ever heard a violin tuned to is the western E-A-D-G tuning (from the highest stirng to the lowest). So that E is actually E5. Next down is the A string at A4 (the standard world reference pitch for creating instruments 440Hz) and then D4 and G3.

2. For south Indian male voice at 1 kattai, the PA-SA-PA-SA (from the highest to lowest) the tuning would be G4-C4-G3-C3.

3. For south Indian female voice at 5 kattai, the tuning would be D5-G4-D4-G3. Hence we feel almost, but not quite, the western shrillness when violin accompanies women. An exception is M.S. Narmadha, who accompanies 5 kattai with SA-PA-SA-PA (highest to lowest) tuning. Here, the 4 strings from high to low will be tuned at: G4-D4-G3-D3. This brings it to a very soothing pitch range. She does the same when accompanying the 5 or 5.5 kattai chitravina too, whereby it brings the violin and chitravina to the same pitch range.

To summarize:

Western violin tuning ((high to low): E5-A4-D4-G3
South Indian male voice normal tuning 1 kattai (high to low): G4-C4-G3-C3
South Indian male voice normal tuning 2 kattai (high to low): A4-D4-A3-D3
South Indian female voice normal tuning 5 kattai (high to low):D5-G4-D4-G3
South Indian female voice Narmadha tuning 5 kattai (high to low):G4-D4-G3-D3

I also found that in the 1965 MA recording MDR sang at A#2 or 117Hz. So in his Shri raga alapana he holds a small kaarvai at the Sa below that, i.e., at A#1 or 58Hz. This is the lowest I've heard anyone sing at, I think :).

BTW, here's a good table of piano key frequencies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_key_frequencies

uday_shankar
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Re: Jugalbandhi - Sikkil Mala Chandrasekhar & Anupama Bhagwa

Post by uday_shankar »

vk,
please move my last couple posts and this one into a separate thread with a new title, maybe under technical discussions.

Guys, I just found something fascinating in the MDR video posted above. Around 01:15:49 MDR actually touches G#1 or 52Hz during the course of the Nattaikurinji alapana. NOW THAT"S SOMETHING !

Just wanted to share my exicitement.

mahavishnu
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Re: Jugalbandhi - Sikkil Mala Chandrasekhar & Anupama Bhagwa

Post by mahavishnu »

Uday, very useful. Thanks.
However, I tried the same method before my earlier post (using the ipad piano app that my son plays with) and somehow I found that a standard C tambura matched C2. and hence everything I reported was one octave lower than it apparently is.

It makes sense that we will not be tuning things at the bottom of the human vocal register, but somehow the piano C3 sounded to high, although in the same "key". Is there a reason for why I perceived the adhara shadjam as one octave lower?

Now, we are completely off-topic in this thread. I will wait till VK moves this to the tech discussions before we start doing DFTs on this :) or decide that I need to have my ears checked.

uday_shankar
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Re: Jugalbandhi - Sikkil Mala Chandrasekhar & Anupama Bhagwa

Post by uday_shankar »

mahavishnu wrote:Is there a reason for why I perceived the adhara shadjam as one octave lower?
I will be buying an iPad soon so I will check the piano app. Meanwhile, don't get your ears checked or cook up a DFT algorithm (actually FFT is a single command available in the basic Matlab...you just need a way to read in the MP3's and parse them...I am sure that can be cooked in short order or cannibalized from somewhere, per modern culture) . But...both are a waste of time, and in any case it will be 6 months before you get an appointment with an ENT in the original land of Obamacare.

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Absolute Frequencies of CM vocal and instruments

Post by vasanthakokilam »

OK, moved the posts to a separate thread and moved it to the technical section. Thanks Uday and Mahavishnu. I will follow along your conversation and also listen to those links.

uday_shankar
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Re: Absolute Frequencies of CM vocal and instruments

Post by uday_shankar »

Indian Flute Pitches

N. Ramani: Nominally 2.5 kattai (slightly short of it)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AAkoCg6Eyc

Shadja: D#5 (Approx)
Mel Shadja: D#6 (Approx)

T R Mahalingam: Nominally 4.5 kattai (slightly higher)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajr07JUa79I

Shadja: F#5 (Approx)
Mel Shadja: F#6 (Approx)

Hariprasad Chaurasia: Nominally 3 kattai
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqVUgjO5Qqw

Shadja: E4 (Approx)
Mel Shadja: E5 (Approx)

Needless to say, all three flautists have played at other pitches. Flute Mali has a tendency to play lower than the nominal pitch of the flute due to mouth/embouchure angle. This gives greater tonal control for those confident about their shruti.

Chitravina Pitches

Ravikiran, Durgaprasad, et al: Nominally 5.5 kattai (slightly lower)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFKDuevMNac

Shadja: G#3 (Approx) with a base boost (G#2)
mel shadja: G#4 (Approx) with base boost

Ravikiran playing Navachitravina : Nominally -1 kattai
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0katJE1BxFM

Shadja: B3 (Approx) with a base boost (B2)
mel shadja: B4 (Approx) with base boost

Vina pitches

Jayanthi Kumaresh: Nominally 3 kattai (slightly short)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtBqJJOQ6q4

Shadja: E3
Mel Shadja: E4

Sitar pitches and Tabla

Anoushka Shankar and Anindo Chatterjee(?) : Nominally 2 kattai
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HqQoLq5c2c

Shadja: D4
Mel Shadja: D5

Tabla: D4

rshankar
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Re: Absolute Frequencies of CM vocal and instruments

Post by rshankar »

Uday - probably a very naive (and possibly stupid) question - is it the really low pitch of MDR's voice that makes any violin accompaniment to his singing rather shrill (at least, it seems so to my decidedly inexpert ears)? Not to sound like S&G, but if I could, I would strip the violin off the MDR tracks and listen just to him and the mRdangam.

mohan
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Re: Absolute Frequencies of CM vocal and instruments

Post by mohan »

Ravi - if MDR is singing at the lower 5.5 pitch then violinists would be playing one octave higher at 5.5 (similar to Sudha Ragunathan's pitch). Here the violin does sound rather shrill. The viola would be a better instrument to accompany a voice like that of MDR.

uday_shankar
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Re: Absolute Frequencies of CM vocal and instruments

Post by uday_shankar »

Mohan, did you listen to the MDR recording ?! You will notice that TNK is playing defacto viola range.

Ravi, I don't feel TNK's violin sounds particularly shrill :).

TNK has probably used heavier gauge strings - perhaps replacing the steel E string with a wound string similar to the A string - when playing for MDR. So the result is that ALL the strings of the violin are tuned an entire octave lower than you would hear a typical violin accompanying a female singing at 5.5 kattais.

Listen TNK's violin sound at say around 0:20:03 during the Nattakurinji alapana in the above MDR recording (reproduced below):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SVBjp_gJlo

Now listen to the violin accompaniment to Nityashree in this recording at an identical 5.5 kattais, one octave higher than MDR:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8I8ZIFS6QlY

So to summarize:

MDR's Aadhara shadja: G#2
TNK's tuning:: D#4-G#3-D#3-G#2

Nityashree's Aadhara Shadja: G#3
Violinist (Shertalai??) Tuning: D#5-G#4-D#4-G#3

So you see, the Nityashree violinist is an entire octave higher.

So in both situations, the violin's aadhara shadja (second string) is always one octave higher than the vocalist's aadhara shadja. This is true regardless of male or female vocalists at various shrutis (except when Narmadha tuning is used as explained above).

Another example, if T.M. Krishna is singing at 1.5 kattai, the situation would be as follows:

TMK's Aadhara Shadja: C#3
Violinist tuning: G#4-C#4-G#3-C#3

Nick H
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Re: Absolute Frequencies of CM vocal and instruments

Post by Nick H »

Uday, you mention possible harmonic differences between full and half chapu on the mridangam.

I wonder if you have looked for and/or noticed any differences between the dhin harmonics when the head is stopped (I don't know a better or more accurate terminology) by the second finger, as done by a small minority of players, rather than the third? As you know, I am not at all good at the thought process of numbers or physics, but I have long wanted to ask this question of someone who might be able to answer it as a scientist as well as a musician.

uday_shankar
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Re: Absolute Frequencies of CM vocal and instruments

Post by uday_shankar »

Nick,

Would be good if you could find clips on youtube to explore difference between the middle finger dhin and the ring finger dhin. Maybe Mahavishnu can explain too ?

I think half chappu is analogous to generating harmonics in any plucked stringed instrument, say the guitar or chitravina. If you gently place your fingers over the midpoint of the string, or the 12th fret, you get the 2nd harmonic. Similarly, by placing the fingers at other points and plucking at the appropriate place, you can generate the 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th harmonics.

Analogously, by the deft placement of the last two fingers, the mridangam is made to generate the 2nd harmonic. So if the mrigandam's fundamental - heard normally - is C3, then during half chappu it would be C4.

Rsachi
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Re: Absolute Frequencies of CM vocal and instruments

Post by Rsachi »

Uday,
First, thanks for those details.

Second, Tiruchy Sankaran has expertly demonstrated ring finger and middle finger press strokes/sounds before.Maybe one could get those audio/videos.

Nick H
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Re: Absolute Frequencies of CM vocal and instruments

Post by Nick H »

Chappu = Dhin

But in the chappu stroke, with the little finger, the single finger tip has to do both striking and stopping duties, whereas dhin uses a finger for each, which is much easier. Chappu is the note to which the mridangam is tuned. Not sure what the lower, open note is, Ma? Pa? but it is not "normally heard" other than as a "special effect" stroke when it is just right for the particular note in the song.

Trichy Sankaran (according to my small amount of observation only) tends to use the middle finger when playing ta-na (or similar) where na is struck with the ring finger on the outer ring. This tends to come in fast passages, so it is hard to observe.

I think it needs a mridangam and some fingers, isolating the strokes, rather than playing real music, to demonstrate and explore.

uday_shankar
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Re: Absolute Frequencies of CM vocal and instruments

Post by uday_shankar »

Thanks Nick. Definitely needs "live" experiments rather than videos I agree. Of course, to get to the bottom of all harmonics, it's best to do a spectral analysis. But a trained ear can pick up many dominant harmonics. Let's wait for mahavishnu.

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Absolute Frequencies of CM vocal and instruments

Post by vasanthakokilam »

This topic may be relevant: http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic. ... 8&p=203908

There, mahavishnu provided a link for the Sir. C.V. Raman's paper (http://www.mridangam.info/~chidu/cvrama ... ature.html ) and a few other drum related matters (http://www.mridangam.info/~chidu/cvraman/cvraman.html)

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Absolute Frequencies of CM vocal and instruments

Post by vasanthakokilam »

And in case any of you want to go the spectral analysis direction, see the info here on Joren's tool: http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=18763

Audacity also supports spectral analysis to some extent but I do not know the level of sophistication or quality of the analysis.

BTW, it is hard to find where it is in AUdacity. It is in the menu that shows up if you click on the downward pointing arrow next to the song name. Here is a little picture to help that along.
Image

mahavishnu
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Re: Absolute Frequencies of CM vocal and instruments

Post by mahavishnu »

Uday very useful info again.

VK: Thanks for the link to the earlier thread. For some reason, we began discussing exactly this (except the absolute frequencies part) and the thread ended abruptly. The site linked there (mridangam.info) has a trojan, so please tread carefully.

Here is another thread where we discussed arrai and full chapu (and even a 1/4 chapu that is going extinct), but in a completely different context. http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic. ... u&start=20

Here are a couple of images from J Balaji's site, (the text captions are his too):
The arrai chapu is a vibrating tone played on the right hand side of the mridangam by using the small finger with the support of other fingers just at the half of the black patch towards the far end of the right hand side. The Arai Chapu tone produces the Top Sadjam tone of the tambura. Image

The full chapu is a vibrating tone played with the small finger on the right hand side. The exact position of playing this is just in between the black patch and the outer layer. This sound produces the Adhaara Sadjam emanated by the Tampura or in other words this full chapu is tuned to the tonic of the Tambura Image

The differences in harmonics are due to the fact that in the arrai chapu, the open vibration makes possible a greater ring that is not damped in any way. Additionally the contact made with the mridangam head is shorter (more staccato?) than in the chapu. Hence one would get greater harmonics with the arraichapu.

Unlike the string example that Uday provided, producing higher harmonics is not so easy for a non-trained hand. But most amateur mridangists (including myself) should still be able to produce a C4 when the mridangam is tuned to a C3.

Arrai chapus suffer quite a bit in a mridangams are tuned higher than a G, hence the hesitation of many senior mridangists to accompany lady artistes (in addition to the genderism that plagues the CM world).The art of crafting the instrument, materials and instrument making techniques come into play here. UKS has been researching this for a while with alternative materials for the mridangam head. You can find an abstract of recent work here: http://www.bose.res.in/newsletter/newsl ... 11_new.pdf, but this has not been formally published to my knowledge. I have asked UKS informally and it is very difficult to get more info from him directly, given how busy he is etc.

In conversations with Vellore Ramabadhran some years ago when he was in Cleveland, the mentioned that the undisputed king of the classic arrai-chapu was the late Tanjore Ramadasa Rao (guru of Madras Kannan) and not Tanjore Ramdas (disciple of PMI and former guru of Sri J Balaji). Ramabadhran mentioned that the true arrai chapu (and the extent of the harmonics it produces) are actually on the decline today. The earlier thread has a link to an interesting demo on the 1/4 chapu by Madras Kannan.

Chapus cannot involve the middle and ring finger. This is a different "kai" and the acoustic and aesthetic effects are very different. The middle and ring finger usage for the dhim/dhin sounds vary as a function of school and speed usage. In the Tanjore/PMI school and what I learned you always use the ring finger for the dhin sound. Many people from the Pazhani school (I have noticed Neyveli Venkatesh in particular) and others like Patri use the middle finger for the dhin. The explanation I have heard from them is to do with speed and the fact that the co-articulation of certain hand configurations (kai amaippu) in their techniques involves this. J Balaji, I believe uses both; maybe it is a reflection of his training in both Tanjore and Pazhani schools. We talked about this in an earlier thread which I can't seem to find.

Further discussion on harmonics of the arrai chapu and even frequency domain analysis would benefit greatly from reading Dr. Sowmya's PhD thesis on this topic. She experimentally studied the effects of temperature variations on the harmonics of the mridangam (and other acoustic qualities). I believe Neyveli Narayanan is researching this for his PhD as well. In conversation with Sowmya, she seemed keen on having a discussion with the public on this, but due to rules of the Madras University, she can't share any of the work till the papers are published (or something circularly antediluvian like that). Perhaps Ramanathan could help us when the materials are ready. All we need is here baseline data on which she did her further calculations.

Nick H
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Re: Absolute Frequencies of CM vocal and instruments

Post by Nick H »

I was returning here to post that what C V Raman wrote probably answers my questions, except that I am not able to understand it. :o

Mahavishnu is way ahead of me, which is to be expected, being not only a real rasika but also a scientist working with sound. I don't see the image links: recently, I was unable to access Balaji's site: is it still active?

There is far more to the sound of the mridangam than I ever imagined, both in practice and in science, it seems! :D

mahavishnu
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Re: Absolute Frequencies of CM vocal and instruments

Post by mahavishnu »

mohan wrote:Ravi - if MDR is singing at the lower 5.5 pitch then violinists would be playing one octave higher at 5.5 (similar to Sudha Ragunathan's pitch). Here the violin does sound rather shrill. The viola would be a better instrument to accompany a voice like that of MDR.
But keep in mind that MDR is singing at the G#2 range, that is a full octave lower than Sudha. Hence the violinist would be tuned to G#3 and hence would be lower even that a violinist tuned to C4 for, say, Semmangudi. Hence the pitch should not be unduly high/shrill. Does that make sense?

Nick, the original images are here: http://www.angelfire.com/mb/mridhangam/ ... lchapu.jpg
and http://www.angelfire.com/mb/mridhangam/ ... ichapu.jpg
I believe the site is still active.

Btw, I am used to calling the chapu "thAm", but it varies depending on the context of articulation. For example in tha LAngu thOm, the "LAng" corresponds to the chapu family of sounds.

Nick, being a rasika is a good thing and all. But being a scientist does not give one the latitude for making embarrassing errors like being an entire octave off as I did in the post on the top of this thread |(
I am still trying to figure out how I perceived a C3 as a C2!

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Absolute Frequencies of CM vocal and instruments

Post by vasanthakokilam »

uday_shankar wrote:Indian Flute Pitches
For whatever it is worth, I verified using Audacity that my 5 kattai flute is indeed G5 ( slightly above it or below it depending on subtle changes to the relative mouth position. For the last one, I intentionally reduced it by rotating the flute at a very slow rate)

Image

rshankar
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Re: Absolute Frequencies of CM vocal and instruments

Post by rshankar »

uday_shankar wrote:Ravi, I don't feel TNK's violin sounds particularly shrill :)
Uday - I always hesitate to listen to MDR's tracks, because I feel that the shrillness of the violin completely mars a beautiful experience for me - so, I wrote out my question to you without listening to the track - but, after this response of yours, I did listen to the track (and I am listening to it again!), and I wanted to say 'thank you'...it is pure bliss. Not shrill at all! WOW!

Nick H
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Re: Absolute Frequencies of CM vocal and instruments

Post by Nick H »

VK, you would probably (if you don't already know it) find Sonic Visualiser interesting and useful. A music analysis tool written by music analysis academics.

Serious toys for real music geeks :D


.
Last edited by Nick H on 06 Jan 2013, 16:00, edited 1 time in total.

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Absolute Frequencies of CM vocal and instruments

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Nick, yes indeed. I remembered that we had used Sonic Visualizer in a thread long time back. I found that thread. http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4339 ... in-cm.html I have not used it since then. I just downloaded the 2.0 version. I will give it a try. Thanks.

Nick H
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Re: Absolute Frequencies of CM vocal and instruments

Post by Nick H »

I love wandering around tool shops; I love wandering around musical instrument, audio and studio equipment shops. Doesn't mean I can use or play any of it --- but sometimes can pass on a useful hint :)
I remembered that we had used Sonic Visualizer in a thread long time back
Oh, wow... just from p.1 I can see you guys already got into some deep stuff with the tool then.

SrinathK
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Re: Absolute Frequencies of CM vocal and instruments

Post by SrinathK »

In case of certain female artistes or children, the shruti can be even above 6 (e.g. Smt. Nityashree in her earlier days). Which is probably the only time the Indian violin is tuned even higher than Western concert pitch.

Lalgudi Jayaraman typically played at D# (2.5 kattai), M.S.Gopalakrishnan tuned his to E (3 kattai or close to it), T.N Krishnan tunes his to F (4 kattai)

Among vocalists T.M. Krishna has by far the greatest range I have seen. At two concerts of his at our institute his range extended from anumanthara sthyai panchamam (the G1 at 52 Hz !!!) to ati tara sthyai shadjamam (C5) and the highest note he seems to have hit (from one of the forum reviews) was an unreal E5 (!!!) which brings his range even more than 3.5 octaves. After that first concert I asked TMK how he increased his range over the years and he said that if the voice is trained correctly its range opens up with time (he did not say how -- possibly due to elimination of breaks between registers??) . He also said that on a very good day he could almost hit 4 octaves. Then he came back 2 years later and he hit those 3.5 octaves with even more ease than before. Also no one has the kind of rich bass tone that TMK has in the lower octave.

Gayathri rama
Posts: 9
Joined: 07 Jul 2017, 23:40

Re: Absolute Frequencies of CM vocal and instruments

Post by Gayathri rama »

Can some one provide the full list of current carnatic vocalists like Sudha raghunathan, Sanjay etc and give their respective frequencies.

Vayoo Flute
Posts: 104
Joined: 15 Jan 2018, 00:53

Re: Absolute Frequencies of CM vocal and instruments

Post by Vayoo Flute »

Although indian instruments such as the sruti box are now tuned to the A=440hz standard, has anyone noticed that the standard some 25-30 years ago was a little higher, at A=445hz or so? This is not surprising as there is some variation in standards throughout the world. Germany and Japan typically use A=445hz or A=446hz.

nayam
Posts: 1
Joined: 31 Aug 2019, 14:52

Re: Absolute Frequencies of CM vocal and instruments

Post by nayam »

It is helpful information for me. Thanks for links.
Technology Updates

thenpaanan
Posts: 635
Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 19:45

Re: Absolute Frequencies of CM vocal and instruments

Post by thenpaanan »

Vayoo Flute wrote: 18 Feb 2018, 09:38 Although indian instruments such as the sruti box are now tuned to the A=440hz standard, has anyone noticed that the standard some 25-30 years ago was a little higher, at A=445hz or so? This is not surprising as there is some variation in standards throughout the world. Germany and Japan typically use A=445hz or A=446hz.
Indeed. Back in the early 90s I brought to the US my old sruthi box (you know, those ancient instruments with bellows and circular stops for pitch settings, that multiple generations now have never seen) I noticed right away that the available pitches on the box were all slightly higher than the corresponding notes on a standard piano. At that time I did not know the actual difference. In 1992 I noticed that the visiting vidwan Shri B Rajam Iyer had a little whistle to tune his tambura to 1.5 kattai which would nominally be C#. But I discovered that it was fractionally higher than C#. I asked Shri Rajam Iyer about his whistle and he told me it had been in possession forever and he did not know how that pitch was set. Perhaps earlier boxes were tuned to the A=445Hz standard but the question would still remain -- was there a notion of a standard pitch (say 1 kattai) for earlier generations before the advent of modern technology?

Which also leads to the related question, how are Indian harmoniums tuned? I have seen concerts with multiple harmoniums, so it is obviously being addressed but how and when exactly the standard was set is not clear to me. Same question applies to flutes, but I have heard that there is a discrepancy between South Indian and North Indian manufactured flutes (could not find an authoritative source to back this up). All the flute players I spoke to did not know how the flutes were tuned at manufacture.

-Thenpaanan

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