ghanTa

Rāga related discussions
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ninjathegreat
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Post by ninjathegreat »

Can some one give a description, characterisctics, and phrases of this raaga? I know SSI has rendedered this - very rarely - in slokas, and the Brida and Muktha have rendered it in Padams, but this raga seems to be almost dead now. Does anyone have a detailed/short alapana, kritis/padams/slokas sung in this raga?

I do know that tyagaraja composed a bunch in ghanTa. Can some one give a list of all the kritis/padams in ghanTa?

I have a kshetrayya padam, neyyAmuna, by Brinda and Mukhta; and Dikshithar's kamalAmbikE avAvA sung by DKJ, Nedunuri and Pattamadai Sundaram Iyer. If any of there are non-copyrighted - I'm almost certainly sure Brinda & Mukhtha's were - I'll post them on a personal webpage.

Cheers
Ninja

mohan
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Post by mohan »

If you listen to the lec-dem by Sowmya and Sashikiran available at
http://www.sangeethapriya.org/Downloads ... index.html

There is some discussion about Ghanta. They say it is clearly one of those ragas that cant be discussed by the mere scale. It has shades of several ragas like Punnagavarali, Dhanyasi, Bhairavi, etc. Sowmya sings sections of a couple of compositions. She also says that it is very difficult to sing an alapana for this raga more than a couple minutes.

ninjathegreat
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Joined: 25 Oct 2005, 22:07

Post by ninjathegreat »

Yes, I have listened to that lec dem... It's a fleeting mention that Ghanta is essentially a phrase based raga...

I disagree with the fact that Ghanta cannot be elaborated upon. Sri Kamalabika Avava is no mean krithi; the raga is expressed in good detail here, and I can clear see phrases and combinations that can certainly lead to an elaboiration of at least 4-5 minutes... If it has shades of those major ragas, why not? How can it have shades of all those big ragas, and not have any scope for elaboration?

I am only a beginner in carnatic music theory, but this certainly puzzles me...

Given the fact that Ghanta was once a fairly popular raga - there are numerous Tyagaraja compositions, padams, the odd dikshithar and svati thirunal compositions, so it must have been in vogue, at least in bhajan form - And listening to it, I am sure that it can also be elaborated upon, only it's not common now, as the raga has almost been forgotten...

rbharath
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Post by rbharath »

it is said that ghanta used to be a ragam which would be elaborated in temple processions and all, which just means that, it is defly elaboratable. today it is not done extensively.

like narayanagaula, ghanta has also donated many of its phrases to closely allied ragams and hence is now suffering from identity crisis.

"danyasi thappu thappa paadinaa, adhu thaan ghanta" a mordern day musicians comment.

ninjathegreat
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Post by ninjathegreat »

Trying to revive this thread... Can someone list all the phrase based ragas that exist?

ninja

ramakriya
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Post by ramakriya »

rbharath wrote:like narayanagaula, ghanta has also donated many of its phrases to closely allied ragams and hence is now suffering from identity crisis.

"danyasi thappu thappa paadinaa, adhu thaan ghanta" a mordern day musicians comment.
:D

This is the big problem of Ghanta I think. With resemblance to heavyweights like Dhanyasi, Bhairavi, and punnAgavarALi, it seems to have an identity crisis. I am making this statement with only limited listening opportunity I have had.

BTW, does anyone have a recording of jayamaNgalam of Tyagaraja in Ghanta? If so please upload. I will try to get a recording too.

Ghanta is(was?) said to be popular in malayALam (sopANa?) music. Remember reading it somewhere.

-Ramakriya

ninjathegreat
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Post by ninjathegreat »

This is the big problem of Ghanta I think. With resemblance to heavyweights like Dhanyasi, Bhairavi, and punnAgavarALi, it seems to have an identity crisis. I am making this statement with only limited listening opportunity I have had.
Would not such resemblences make it exciting and unique for elaboration? I'm sorry, but I'm a novice, still learning...

cheers
Ninja

arunk
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Post by arunk »

i did some digging up on ghanTa. There is sparse current info. Here it is. Hope you find it useful:

Historical evidence indicates that the structure of this raga was not consistent in all works even from rAmamatya (16th century), the earliest work following a mEla system. This is certainly unlike dhanyAsi. The placing of ghANTa in mELas differ significantly among the works:
1. rAmamAtya assigns ghANTArava to (the old) kannaDagaula mELa. Mentions that it sADava. Says it as dhaivata as graha, amsa, nyAsa and omits gandhara.
2. This assignment to kannaDagaula mEla is seriously disputed by sangIta sudhA (gOvindadIksha - 17th century), who places ghaNTArava in the old srIrAga mEla and notes it is sampurna. This is based on rishaba, which is assertively claimed to be like in srIraga (pancasruti), but one that ramamatya assigns as SatSruti rishaba. Note that in many cases rAmamatya's assignment of swaras and mElas are quite different from other texts - the reason he incurred the wrath of vEnkaTamakhin! However, i still think its possible that we just dont know his reasoning (:-).
3. vEnkaTamakhin assigns ghaNTArava to bhairavi mEla (equivalent to today's natabhairavi) and notes it has all swaras (of that mEla).
4. sangrahacUDAmaNi assigns ghaNTArava to ratnangi mEla (i.e. s r1 g1 ...) - possible that the 2 rishabas are interpreted as r1, g1 (but what about g2? apparently no mention).
5. A 18th-19th century work rAgalakshaNa (author unknown) has a ghaNTarAva in bhairavi (i.e. today's naTabhairavi) mElA, but also a ghanTa in hanumatoDi mEla. Possibly indicates introduction of r1.
6. Finallly SSP, (with assignment to natabhairavi mela i believe) mentions use of both dhaivata (like in bhairavi), and now the introduction of lower suddha rishaba as well. Also alludes that with all these changes the raga (which used to be ghanTarAva) is now ghaNTa.

Also, see 5. See http://www.swathithirunal.in/articles/v ... amania.htm which mentions The Varna 'Sa paramavivasa' in Ghanta is the only one available in that raga. Here the prayoga Sa Ga Ma Pa Ni Sa is repeatedly seen. of the two vakraprayogas Ga Ri Ga Ma and Pa Ni Dha Ni, which, according to subbarama Dikshitar, give the characteristic grace to this raga, the first occurs frequently enough but the second occurs only once. This suggests the arohana to be Sa Ga Ri Ga Ma Pa Ni Sa and Pa Ni dha Ni to be a visesha prayoga, whereas in the Sampradayapradarsini this is incorporated in the arohana itself. the prayogas like Ni Sa Dha Ni Sa, Ni Dha, Ni Sa etc., where chatussruti dhaivata should occur, are conspicuous by their absence.. Note sa-ga-ma-pa-ni-sa usage would resemble dhanyAsi.

I have the dIkshitar kriti book with notation by RRI. (Roughly) Translating the brief para in tamil on the rAga: (part of) the vEda (shRi) cakram, the 4th. natabhairavi janya. rigimadani. sagarigamapadapanisa'-sa'nidapamagarisa. (Also?) Called ghanTaravam. upAnga rakthi rAga. Shines full with rasa, and with vakra prayogas. Presently its usage is limited. Dhanyasi's popularity is the reason. Qualified people's research is needed.


In the shrI kamalAmbikE krithi, i am not sure if R1 appears. I have not heard the krithi. I am assuming the presence of rishaba which is not that uncommon is actually R2 as the mEla is mentioned as natabhairavi. In the book on nauka caritramu i have, mELa is mentioned as hanumatOdi and ri also appears there in perugu pAlu. There is no indication which is R1 and which is R2 there.
------------------------------------
If we look at all this admittedly confusing information it looks ike the raga morphed over time (or perhaps had different flavors in different regions???) and may be became closer to dhanyAsi over time due to over-usage of certain phrases? It should be noted dhanyAsi is very old also and unlike ghanTa it looks like its structure has remained consistent in all texts. I am not sure one can say dhanyAsi benefited from ghaNTa from this. If any, it looks like ghaNTa may have morphed enough to get close enough to dhanyAsi (i.e. r1, d1 and s g m p n s) and that people moved it too close to dhanyAsi (as noted in the varnam above s g m p n s appears quite often)?

BUT, I have heard only perugu pAlu (tyAgaraga, nauka caritramu) and in that rendition it resembled only punnAgavarALi - i didnt sense any strong dhanyAsi or bhairavi presence (maybe my memory if hazy). So may be ghaNTa has several faces (:-)

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 09 Sep 2006, 22:22, edited 1 time in total.

knandago2001
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Post by knandago2001 »

perugu paalu bhujiyinchi thanuvula, in Ghanta, is a song from Tyagaraja's Nowka Charitram. I have heard renditions of this piece by Srirangam Gopalaratnam and Nookala Chinna Satyanarayana on audio cassette. This composition has a unique falvour and the raga bhava is quite different from that in Neyyamuna (padam) or Sri Kamalamba.

srkris
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Post by srkris »

Arunk,

Thanks for the information.

drshrikaanth
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Post by drshrikaanth »

arunk wrote:In the shrI kamalAmbikE krithi, i am not sure if R1 appears.
Quite a lot. In fact more than R2.

ninjathegreat
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Post by ninjathegreat »

Arunk,

Thanks for all the work! I infer that one of the reson for sparse usage of ghanta is there is that there is a confusion as to how the raga actually is to be interpreted.... That's very interesting... Do you have the notation for that varnam?

thanks!
ninja

arunk
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Post by arunk »

you are welcome srkris and ninja.

A correction in my post above mainly in terms of historical accuracy: I mention that rAmamatyA's work is the earliest work under mela system but that is not correct. vidyAranyA's (14th century) work is the first (although that work is lost and current information on that work is from the later sangIta sudha only). I do not know if vidyAranyA's work mentions ghaNTArava (i dont think so).

I think we could guess that perhaps there were various interpretations of the raga. I am not sure if that led to its going sort of out of vogue.

I dont have notations for that varnam - but i am guessing any comprehensive collection of ST's compositions should have it.

Also, i just heard srI kamalAmbikE (see http://www.ecse.rpi.edu/Homepages/shivk ... nal/music/) - DKJ's rendition. Not sure if it is me, i do NOT sense dhanyAsi nor bhairavi influence. However I do sense a stronger asAveri feel (and hence you could also say a bit of punnAgavarALi). "perugu pAlu" - i need to check if it has similar (i dont remember it feeling this much of a asAveri feel).

So we sort of have another twist. While dhanyAsi has been named culprit, the 2 renditions i have heard give no dhanyAsi feel (:-)

Arun

prashant
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Post by prashant »

jaya mangaLam by the Rudrapatnam Brothers.

http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?a ... 14205BE6A4

This is an interesting topic, one that has left me scratching my head several times while singing the navAvaraNam. In the next few weeks, I might have the chance to meet Smt. Vedavalli, so I will try and personally request Amma to give her views on the lakshaNa of this rAgA. If I am able to do so, I will note down and post them for everyone's benefit.

ninjathegreat
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Post by ninjathegreat »

prashant, thanks for posting!!

I am no expert, but the jayamangalam seems to give a strong punnagavarALi feel to me... Am I right?

Ninja

drshrikaanth
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Post by drshrikaanth »

Some rare pieces in ghaNTa GRAB THEM
kShEtraj~na's neyyamuna by Brinda & Muktha

http://rapidshare.de/files/32546646/ney ... raj_na.mp3

jayamangaLam from prahlAda bhakti vijayam

http://rapidshare.de/files/32547366/jay ... garAja.mp3

perugu pAlu by Vedavalli et al from an AIR recording of naukA caritram

http://rapidshare.de/files/32547510/per ... garAja.mp3

unna tAvuna by Vedavalli et al from an AIR recording of naukA caritram.

http://rapidshare.de/files/32547702/unn ... garAja.mp3

drshrikaanth
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Post by drshrikaanth »

And the best and most comprehensive ghaNTa- dIkShitar's navAvaraNa. Here are 3 versions!

Malladi Brs.

http://rapidshare.de/files/32548410/Ava ... Shitar.mp3

D.K.Jayaraman

http://rapidshare.de/files/32548476/Ava ... Shitar.mp3

Pathamadai Sundaram Iyer

http://rapidshare.de/files/32548861/SrI ... Shitar.mp3

ninjathegreat
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Post by ninjathegreat »

To add to DRS sir's post of the navavarana, here's a Nedunuri version:

http://rapidshare.de/files/32549654/44_ ... oorthy.mp3

mahesh_narayan
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Post by mahesh_narayan »

I was told that it is Shri S. Rajam and not Nedunuri Garu who is singing the kriti, though it sounds very similar to his voice. I must say after hearing this clip that that seems to be true. It seems to be bereft of some typical Nedunuri Garu gamakas.

Could anyone confirm this?

padren68
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Post by padren68 »

Mahesh, U r right. This is a rendition of S Rajam.

knandago2001
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Post by knandago2001 »

If one accepts that Ghanta is a janya of Natabhairavi, then suddha rishaba and chatursruti dhaivata must be the anya swaras. Phrases like srs, nsnrsndp, SgrsN, mgrs contain the suddha rishaba. These are abundant in Neyyamuna. The phrase psdp is likely a ranjaka prayoga. The anupallavi of the Navavarna kriti (loka palini kapalini shulini) - pgM psN dnS,grR S nsnsRS nsnrsndp - is instructive in terms of usage of chatursruti dhaivata (dnS) as in bhairavi. Vedavalli's rendition of perugu paalu highlights the use of gmP N,d dp in the second sangati itself. Jaya mangalam by the Rudrapatnam Brothers showcases more of the bhairavi - related phrases (Grgm P, MpdPd P, rgMMpgR). Thank you Dr. Shrikanth for this opportunity to be able compare renditions and appreciate raga lakshana.

nandagopal

arunk
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Post by arunk »

thanks a lot to drs and others for clips. An initial listening indicates a common theme of asAveri and punnAgavarALi flavors. The rudrapatnam brothers' rendition does indeed give a perceptible bhairavi flavour. Also, the instrumental intro to one had a dhanyAsi flavour (which i didnt get in the krithi) - i now forget which one!

I agree with ninja that the raga does have a unique flavor to it.Yes it resembles a few other ragas, but that is not uncommon. There are ragas extremely close to each other that still have thrived! Besides, the fact that ghaNTa doesnt resemble too much of any one raga but instead a combination of a few itself seems to me as a sign of uniqueness. In any case, the views of it being labelled as some sort of a poorer cousin to dhanyAsi, or dhanyAsi being labelled as a reason for ghaNTa loosing favour etc,, seem confusing, and perhaps even unfair atleast based on these renditions (i dont want to presume too much and say "misleading" (:-)). I fail to see how one can make such a connection from these renditions (barring that one case of the instrumental prelude).

In many respects in terms of anya swaras and special prayogas, hard to fit nicely into any mELa etc. ghaNTa seems very much like Ahiri or even asAveri. Hence, If a classification must be made, we add in the resemblance to punnAgavarALi, and to me it then seems better suited under 8th mela compared to 20th. This i feel even with the dIkshitar krithi, which based on SSP etc. i would have expected a stronger bhairavi flavour.

Thanks again for allowing us access to a wonderful treasure. Now, it is time for me to give a more serious listen so that i can better relate to the points made by nandagopal.

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 10 Sep 2006, 23:11, edited 1 time in total.

arasi
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Post by arasi »

After hearing ghantA in a row--sorry, I am not that enthusiastic about it. Unique it is but not as touching as punnAgavarALi or the exotic asAveri. I hear touches of Ahiri and ghantA is not as moving as Ahiri. Yes, I hear bhairavi too, but DhanyAsi I don't hear. Somehow, it doesn't work for me. Not as melodic in my view...

ramakriya
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Post by ramakriya »

arasi wrote:After hearing ghantA in a row--sorry, I am not that enthusiastic about it. Unique it is but not as touching as punnAgavarALi or the exotic asAveri. I hear touches of Ahiri and ghantA is not as moving as Ahiri. Yes, I hear bhairavi too, but DhanyAsi I don't hear. Somehow, it doesn't work for me. Not as melodic in my view...
I agree that dhanyasi chaye does not show up much in jayamangaLam, which has more of punnAgavarALi /asAvEri chAye.

IMO, dhanyasi chAye shows up at several places in the navAvaraNa. eg. around 'lOka pAlini' 'sarvasiddhi pradAyike' 'ananta guruguha vidite', 'sakAmEshwari' etc

-Ramakriya

arasi
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Post by arasi »

Ramakriya,
I did not hear all of them. I am sure Ghanta has shades of dhanyAsi. Others have noted it too.

thenpaanan
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Post by thenpaanan »

My teacher would say that the raga is aptly named ghanta because it is like a large bell that slowly swings from one raga to another -- from bhairavi to dhanyasi to asaveri. When one is attempting alapana in this raga one should be mindful of the bell and not swing too much in any one direction but swing back gently in one of the other directions from any extreme. I found this picture quite useful in my own practice.

-thenpaanan

rbharath
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Post by rbharath »

i remember Smt Geetha Bennett mentioning at a lec-dem interaction session that there is a Papanasam Sivan kriti 'Ghanta mani pole' which her father Sri S Ramanathan used to sing.

any recordings of this piece?

Lakshman
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Post by Lakshman »

I did not find any such song by Papanasham Shivan. But there is a song by GKB with similar starting words.

ghaNTAmaNI ADudu. rAgA: kAnaDA. cApu tALA.

P: ghaNTAmaNI ADudu kaNDu piNi vADudu
C1: mukti maNI tEDudu nADudu kUDudu
2: paravashamAgudu pAvangaL pOghudu
3: janana maraNAdigaL mOhamum tIrndadu

arunk
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Post by arunk »

ramakriya, others

After a couple of more listens, i agree with ramakriya - i see shades of dhanyAsi in all those places in the navAvaraNam. I was actually sensing them yesterday in places, and some of those coincide with ones mentioned. I still dont think ghaNTa is very close to dhanyAsi, but atleast now I am able to see the connection!

Here are my thoughts on what the bits and pieces of the lakshana I can sense. Please do correct me if i am wrong - it is quite possible i am grossly approximating or missing the boat on the specifics here. I also realize i am being daring here and venturing into areas i should stay off (;-). But my curiousity is getting the better of me, and i view this as a learning process for me.

* I (now) see shades of dhanyAsi very palpable if D1 is prolonged when going down from N2 towards P. I remember from a Dr.S. Ramanathan's demo that this was characteristic of dhanyasi. In that lec-dem he shows how going from ni to pa differs between dhanyAsi, Ahiri and tODi. In any case, I see this type of usage in the navAvaraNam and also in the kshetrajna padam (pallavi itself). But I couldnt sense this usage in the others - e.g. the 2 nauka caritramu pieces.

* The sm(g)rs (??) type of usage in unna tAvuna at the tail-end of first line of each stanza seems to give a dhanyAsi feel. (IMO, the tyAgarAja pieces give a punnAgavarALi touch the most - even the aSaveri touch is more feeble).

* The prolonged d1 in the pallavi part of navAvaraNam (lAM in kamalAm) is unlike the one mentioned above, and it seems very unique (i.e. not shared with other ragas?). But I am not sure if it occurs elsewehere (?) - is this part of a characteristic prayoga?

* Also the padam has a a prolonged, but slight (as in not deep) kampita on g2 (mara pa~~~~ ya ) which also seems unique to me, but again i am not sure if others have it and I wonder if it is part of a characteristic prayoga.

* It seems that both d1 and r1 are usually elongated when going down to pa and sa respectively. That seems characteristic of ghaNTa.

Can people more knowledgable please expand on this if possible?

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 11 Sep 2006, 21:59, edited 1 time in total.

arasi
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Post by arasi »

While those of you who know the theory of music discuss the raga, as a mere rasika I would like to add this: I like the way thenpaanan's teacher explained ghanta to him. I wish all teachers were that descriptive. This excercise in analysing a raga by just its resemblance to oher ragas is a bit flawed, I think. It is like blind men trying to describe an elephant by mere touch and saying it is like this or that). I wonder if at some point someone heard the bells in a temple and sang with it and it became ghanta (that's why the swaying notes). Or, they felt that something had to be chanted along with the bell sounds...

drshrikaanth
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Post by drshrikaanth »

arasi
idEnu rakti rAgada mElE virakti bandu biTTitE?

arasi
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Post by arasi »

ghaNTegaLA dhani iruvAga ghaNta rAgavU, jAgaTegaLu saha bEkE??

drshrikaanth
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Post by drshrikaanth »

danige dani samarasavAgi samanjasavAgi sEridAgallave rAga. adaralliyu rakti rAgavantu hELalE bEkilla. A rAgada sogasu nimaginnu tiLidilla aShTe. tiLidare biDalAriri :)

ramakriya
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Post by ramakriya »

arasa arasiyarigU ommomme virakti baruvuduMTu ;)

hADuttA hADuttA (kELuttA kELuttA) virakti mArpaTTItu :)

-Ramakriya

p.s. Does the name pANini ring a bell?

arasi
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Post by arasi »

DRS,
My rasanA has to go a long way, I realize. Wish I had learnt the rAgA from a gnAnasthA.
Ramakriya,
We are still within ghanta dhwani it seems(you ask whether pANini rings a a bell). You lost me there. I was thinking of the Somanathapura temple...
Last edited by arasi on 12 Sep 2006, 00:42, edited 1 time in total.

rbharath
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Post by rbharath »

Lji, it is the GKB song i mentioned it wrongly as a PS composition.

Today i could listen to a ghaNTa piece and i could practically appreciate the swinging between bhairavi and dhanyAsi and asAvEri.

ramakriya
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Post by ramakriya »

Sure, I got the somanAtha pura.

Just ignore pANini. A case of mistaken identity.

-Ramakriya

drshrikaanth
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Post by drshrikaanth »

Now you two lost me on the way to sOmanAthapura :D

arasi
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Post by arasi »

bAgiloLu kai mugidu oLAge bA yAtrikanE!

arunk
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Post by arunk »

This excercise in analysing a raga by just its resemblance to oher ragas is a bit flawed, I think.
Perhaps. But we have nothing else (yet) to go on :). Drawing comparisons to allied ragas, that is pretty common. There is nothing wrong with this, in fact it is very important with closely allied rakthi ragas such as here to be able to tread carefully within their realms (which are allowed to overlap).

Although one could argue that viewing ghaNTa as pendulum across 3 ragas, can make it a self-fulfilling prophecy i.e. it will never be more than that!

btw, i didnt get all the recent talk, except drs's "A rAgada sogasu nimaginnu tiLidilla aShTe. tiLidare biDalAriri" ;);)

Arun

ramakriya
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Post by ramakriya »

arunk wrote:btw, i didnt get all the recent talk, except drs's

Arun
We were all refering to a very well known poem of Kuvempu, about the Somanathapura temple which begins as .

bAgiloLu kaimugidu oLage bA yAtrikane
shileyallavI guDiyu, kaleya baleyu

( Oh traveller, come in with folded hands,
for this temple is not stone, but w web of art)

One of the charanas in the goes on as

ghaMTegaLillilla jAgaTegaLillilla karpUradAratiya jyOtiyilla

(There are no bells nor are there jAgATes and there is no light from the Arati)

because Somanathapura, is not a functioning temple, because vandals took away the mUla mUrti.

-Ramakriya

drshrikaanth
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Post by drshrikaanth »

arun :)

God, arasi , good quote from kuvempu. It took me a while to figure it out.

bAgiloLu kai mugidu oLage bA yAtrikane |
SileyallavI guDiyu kaleya baleyu |---


gaNTegaLa daniyilla jAgaTegaLililla |
karpUradAratiya jyOtiyilla |
bhagavanta tAnemba rUpagoNDihudilli |
rasikateya kaDalukki harivudilli ||

drshrikaanth
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Post by drshrikaanth »

LOL. We hit the button at the same time ramakriya.

Arun, good analysis of the rAga. To a degree comparing with the allied rAgas is good. But you are right, one should not run away with swinging between rAgas. Looks like it is going that way with ghaNTa.

arunk
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Post by arunk »

ramakriya, drs - Wow! Thanks!

arasi that is impressively devious :D!!

arasi
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Post by arasi »

Arunk,
I agree with you that we should pay a lot of attention to allied ragas so that we do not meander into the realm of other related ragas. This to me is a different issue--not like simhendra madhyama and shanmukhapriya. To me, ghanta is a minor raga and it has to deal with the identity of asAveri, bhairavi, Ahiri and dhanyAsi (are there more?) and it puts a crimp in it...

arasi
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Post by arasi »

bhagavantanAnada rUpa, I think...
Before someone thinks we belong in the language section and that somanathapura is not in the puNya sthaLAs booklet, it is wise to disperse:)
Last edited by arasi on 12 Sep 2006, 01:09, edited 1 time in total.

arunk
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Post by arunk »

arasi,

You may have a point, but IMO the relative importance of the ragas shouldnt matter. For example, a tODI even being so huge cannot and must not go into the realm of the relatively much much minor Ahiri (or punnAgavaRALi or asAveri). Similarly a bhairavi should stay away from mukhAri and vice-versa. They do overlap and similarities are unavoidable, but how you tread within those overlapping regions is also quite important. They are not "freely interchangeable" there either. This is IMO what makes rakthi ragas very special and I guess challenging for the learner and performer.

But in raga evolution one cannot be surprised if big fish eat up smaller fish just like in nature. Besides here we dont yet know which territory is clearly ghaNTa's alone. It is quite possible that we are now dealing with remnants of the raga and most (but not all) of the remnants seem to be found in other ragas. Many parts that were more ghaNTA like could have been lost over time.

Arun

arunk
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Post by arunk »

> They are not "freely interchangeable" there either.
Would be better as:

They are not always "freely interchangeable" there (as in the overlapping parts) either.

Arun

arasi
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Post by arasi »

Point taken about 'which came first' and 'the survival of the fittest'. True, just as in the case of unheard mELa kartA rAgas--as we get familiar with them, we do enjoy them...

ninjathegreat
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Post by ninjathegreat »

until the explanations came, I was facing Kannada bouncers!!!!

What is interesting is that we are familiar with the phrases being parts of other ragas, as a result, we associate it with moving between ragas. Could it not be that the asaveri, punnagavarali, dhanyasi etc could have been derived from Ghanta, for the purpose of fitting into the mathematical framework (melakarta system) of our minds? Listening to the songs, one cannot but help notice that it evokes a mixture of emotions, none dominating... What is even more interesting is that these emotions are those of heavy-weight ragas...

Another question I have is that Ghanta does not have any scales as such; could that be because it never fit into the melakarta scheme? And given that there is effort to classify every raga into the melakarta, it would make sense that it is slowly being sidelined because it does not essentially fit in...
They do overlap and similarities are unavoidable, but how you tread within those overlapping regions is also quite important.
Arun, can you elaborate on what you see are the overlapping rules in this case?

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